Dragons in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ma'ElKoth
03-15-07, 12:38 AM Before I start, I need to admit that I am also a longtime Shadowrun gamer, which is probably influencing my views on this subject.

I've been running an Eberron campaign for a while, and I've been wondering about the nature of dragons in the world. Specifically, why they seem content to hang around their remote continent, either digging into the Draconic Prophecy or... I dunno, doing stuff. Please correct me if there are source books addressing this, but why aren't they taking a far more aggressive role in Kholvere? Aside from increased contact with the Dragonmarked races, which would please the Prophecy nuts among them, it would seem that either secretly or openly patronizing humanoids would only benefit the Wyrms.

Think about it: what does the average dragon want? A secure lair full of gold. Your "average" dragon accomplishes this by sitting in a cave high up in a mountain (or in a cavern below a fetid swamp, to each their own) and slowly accumulating treasure via raiding or looting the corpses of unlucky adventurers. At most they seem to have some tribe of troglodytes kobolds doing their fetching. This, in the world of Eberron, doesn't make sense to me.

Imagine you are the first dragon to think to himself "Hey, those common races are awfully good at accumulating stuff, and they seem to value gold as nothing more than a means of exchange. Here, I have amazing physical and arcane might, lore beyond the ken of even the elves, incredible intelligence and charisma. If I supply them with leadership and firepower, they will probably supply me with security and gold." I mean, imagine the consternation when the Right Hand of Justice adventuring party is warned off of slaying FireFang (or whatever) by the local government.

Now, from the perspective of a given city, town, or whatever, you have a lot to gain from a draconic citizen. So long as you are powerful enough to ensure the beast doesn't completely dominate you, there's a lot of up-side. The obvious benefit is having an incredibly powerful protector. Other benefits would accrue from the increased economic activity that would surround such a repository of knowledge and arcane skill. Further, dragons like gold, seemingly more than it's really worth. This can be exploited.

I for one plan to include numerous (about a dozen) draconic "renegades" who covertly or overtly participate in life on Kholvere. The biggies (epic advanced dragons) through a race of drakes created through the create life spell, others through agents and intermediaries, and at least one who lairs in the center of Sharn. Any comments? Am I just destroying the flavor of the game here?
Splendide
03-15-07, 01:05 AM They invented the internet, but haven't worked out how to access it outside of Argonessen. Thats why they're so non-interventionist.

They sure talk the talk on their messageboards though.
Cambian00
03-15-07, 01:26 AM Dragons are content to keep to their own, IMO, for the simple reason that every time they get involved with the "lesser races" they end up altering and screwing up the Prophesy which makes their contemplative lives more difficult.

Think on this: The last time they got involved, a whole dragonmark was wiped out. I am quite certain that this even put a serious twist on the prophesy.
The time before that is when they put the "royal smack-down" on the giants, effectively ending the greatest civilization ever to exist in the world.

Quite frankly, they just want to decipher the prophesy. Any time they get involved, they mess it up.

For more info on the dragons of eberron you are going to have to wait until October for Keith's newest book "Dragons of Eberron" to be published.
Arcane Guyver
03-15-07, 03:35 AM Think on this: The last time they got involved, a whole dragonmark was wiped out. I am quite certain that this even put a serious twist on the prophesy.

That brings up an interesting thought...I wonder how much conflict, if any, there was amongst the dragons over this action. I mean, I doubt the flights of Argonnessen were completely united in the zeal to wipe out a dragonmarked house, due to morals or even just Prophecy reading.
Sereno
03-15-07, 09:24 AM Think about it: what does the average dragon want? A secure lair full of gold.

This is where you're going wrong ... Eberron dragons aren't particularly interested in a lair full of gold.

Eberron's dragons are far more interested in how the Draconic Prophesy is playing out, or manipulating for their own (or others) interests in the case of the Chamber, than they are interested in wealth accumulation.

Eberron's dragons are, IMO, much more interesting than those of any other setting. Everywhere else, the most impressive and awe-inspiring of magical/mythical beasts becomes nothing more than a huge pile of XP and treasure waiting to the adventurers.
The Dreaming Duck
03-15-07, 10:54 AM This is where you're going wrong ... Eberron dragons aren't particularly interested in a lair full of gold.
What he said.

Please correct me if there are source books addressing this, but why aren't they taking a far more aggressive role in Kholvere?
There's a couple of factors here.

This has already been addressed in part with the Quori and the rakshasa. It's noted that for the quori, running Riedra isn't what they WANT to do; it's what they have to do, and it's considered a tedious chore. When you're a brilliant, immortal spirit with vast powers, why would you WANT to spend your days organizing an ant farm? Most dragons live in Argonnessen because it's where they can enjoy the company of their peers. For a dragon to go live among humans would be the same sort of thing as a human deciding to go and live among a tribe of chimps in the wild.

Beyond this, a dragon away from Argonnessen is a target. This is why the mighty rakshasa stay below the radar, and it's also addressed in Keith's story in Dragons: Worlds Afire. A dragon who publically makes his presence known becomes a target for the Lords of Dust, Erandis d'Vol, Valenar dragonslayers, and who knows what else. Dragons have many powerful enemies. If they remain hidden or in the company of other dragons, they are safe. But if a dragon just appeared in Sharn and publically set up shop, it's going to have people gunning for it.

Beyond THIS, we have Xen'drik. There, the dragons DID act as the patrons of the giants... and the giants almost destroyed Eberron with the powers they learned from the dragons. Don't give atomic weapons to chimps... and it's a pain trying to predict how they will abuse the power they receive. Likewise, the interaction between dragons and the Line of Vol resulted in the entire bloodline having to be wiped out. It's dangerous for dragons to mingle with the lesser races, and so they generally avoid it.

If the dragons wanted to, they could conquer Khorvaire - or at least destroy it as they did Xen'drik. The fact that they don't shows that they don't want to, either because: they have nothing to gain; the Prophecy shows them that this would be a bad idea; they don't want to openly battle the Lords of Dust, and this would trigger such a conflict; and so on.

With all of THAT said, dragons do act in Khorvaire and make use of humans. The Chamber has many human agents and actively manipulates humans. And then there are rogue wyrms. This Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050418a) specifically says "Adventurers might stumble onto a rogue wyrm by accident; battling a thieves' guild, they could be taken by surprise when they discover the true power behind the organization." You could have a dragon as the mastermind of a guild, gang, whatever; it's just not going to act openly, for fear of the wrath of Argonnessen or many other enemies.
Sereno
03-15-07, 11:43 AM There's a couple of factors here.

I agree with everything you've said, but that's not me you've got quoted, there! :)
Cifer
03-15-07, 12:16 PM Well, as soon as dragons become intelligent enough to figure out that gold is not that important when you don't buy stuff with it, a lot of the traditional dragon plots fall apart.
The dragons have everything they want in Argonessen. Conquering something means being responsible for it afterwards - why have the hassle of that when you can just manipulate the events that really matter to you and stay out of sight otherwise?
Daydreamer
03-15-07, 12:26 PM Some dragons as mentioned stray from the path, i know that several dragons have taken up shop in xendrik and hoard treasure.
I think this is more than just a difference of 'living amongst chimps' and that historically, there interminglingly caused disasters ( i DO think this is a major factor though), but i think the dragons are different for an entirely other reason.

Culture(and perhaps religion?), the dragons-rather than being a hodge podge of monsters in various places have something resembling a nation. I believe dragons in this world are highly 'mystical' and its not just a question of being more intelligent, but they are probably different in personality and how they think as well.

I suspect this is why some dragons become more actively involved, perhaps frustrated with these heavily mystical traditions of the elders (or even believing them to be bunk!). This mystical religious attitude is how i portray the dragons-something of a combination of a hindu mystic, a buddhist monk and catholic priest.

Dragons arent just removed by power and history, they are removed by culture and attitude.
Adrez Nesnsid
03-15-07, 12:36 PM I've always had the impression that they were sort of like the dragons in Ozy and Millie (http://www.ozyandmillie.org/d/20000614.html) in terms of personality etc. etc. etc.
Kensan_Oni
03-16-07, 02:12 AM In my version of Ebberon, there are public dragons in Khorvaire. In fact, I have placed what two dragons are calling the "Argonnessen Embassy" smack dab in the middle of Dragonroost, where they claim right to part of the Howling Peaks as Draconic Territory and keep watch from it there. After the accidental burning of Dragonroost 300 years ago, over some undisclosed incident, the gnomes haven't bothered them since. Publicly they are known as very odd recluses who do not leave their polymorphed shapes or their embassy hardly ever, although only the house staff for sure knows if anyone leaves.

Secretly, the dragons really aren't part of any embassadorial mission at all, but are recruits for agents of the Chamber. They keep an eye on potential in the lesser races, as well as keeping tabs on ancesteral breeding grounds for Metallic Dragons in the Howling Peaks. Another group, much less public, is stationed near Sword Keep, keeping an eye on Dragon's Crown.

The Embassadors spend a lot of their time reading Gnomish Inquirers, looking for signs of Abberant Dragonmarks, and figuring out how they add to the dragon prophecy overall. They occasionally call in Abberant Marks to perform greater missions of mysterious importance for them.

...

and that's how the dragons in Eberron work so far in my game.
Wymarc
03-16-07, 03:16 PM what does the average dragon want? A secure lair full of gold. Your "average" dragon accomplishes this by sitting in a cave high up in a mountain (or in a cavern below a fetid swamp, to each their own) and slowly accumulating treasure via raiding or looting the corpses of unlucky adventurers.

Wrong. unless I missed a word in the ECS, this is incorrect. The average dragon wants to be undisturbed for a few millenia while they ponder the Draconic Prophecy.

You will have to wait for Dragons of Eberron (coming out in October) to learn much more.

I personally think that the currency in hoards are probably just handed down as heirlooms, not actually used. As the creators of arcane magic, they can probably make any magic item they want easily.
Joni-san
03-18-07, 11:14 AM I've always had the impression that they were sort of like the dragons in Ozy and Millie (http://www.ozyandmillie.org/d/20000614.html) in terms of personality etc. etc. etc.

Great, now I'm forced to include a Red Dragon with an adopted Shifter son in my next campaign. Damns yous Adrez Nesnsid! :P
CannibalSmith
03-18-07, 12:15 PM Here's the previous thread on this topic. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=764615)
Adrez Nesnsid
06-30-07, 09:39 PM BIMP!! :bump:
CannibalSmith
07-01-07, 03:40 AM Patience mortal, the book most holeeh will come out in due time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ma'ElKoth 03-15-07, 12:38 AM	Before I start, I need to admit that I am also a longtime Shadowrun gamer, which is probably influencing my views on this subject. I've been running an Eberron campaign for a while, and I've been wondering about the nature of dragons in the world. Specifically, why they seem content to hang around their remote continent, either digging into the Draconic Prophecy or... I dunno, doing stuff. Please correct me if there are source books addressing this, but why aren't they taking a far more aggressive role in Kholvere? Aside from increased contact with the Dragonmarked races, which would please the Prophecy nuts among them, it would seem that either secretly or openly patronizing humanoids would only benefit the Wyrms. Think about it: what does the average dragon want? A secure lair full of gold. Your "average" dragon accomplishes this by sitting in a cave high up in a mountain (or in a cavern below a fetid swamp, to each their own) and slowly accumulating treasure via raiding or looting the corpses of unlucky adventurers. At most they seem to have some tribe of troglodytes kobolds doing their fetching. This, in the world of Eberron, doesn't make sense to me. Imagine you are the first dragon to think to himself "Hey, those common races are awfully good at accumulating stuff, and they seem to value gold as nothing more than a means of exchange. Here, I have amazing physical and arcane might, lore beyond the ken of even the elves, incredible intelligence and charisma. If I supply them with leadership and firepower, they will probably supply me with security and gold." I mean, imagine the consternation when the Right Hand of Justice adventuring party is warned off of slaying FireFang (or whatever) by the local government. Now, from the perspective of a given city, town, or whatever, you have a lot to gain from a draconic citizen. So long as you are powerful enough to ensure the beast doesn't completely dominate you, there's a lot of up-side. The obvious benefit is having an incredibly powerful protector. Other benefits would accrue from the increased economic activity that would surround such a repository of knowledge and arcane skill. Further, dragons like gold, seemingly more than it's really worth. This can be exploited. I for one plan to include numerous (about a dozen) draconic "renegades" who covertly or overtly participate in life on Kholvere. The biggies (epic advanced dragons) through a race of drakes created through the create life spell, others through agents and intermediaries, and at least one who lairs in the center of Sharn. Any comments? Am I just destroying the flavor of the game here?
Splendide 03-15-07, 01:05 AM	They invented the internet, but haven't worked out how to access it outside of Argonessen. Thats why they're so non-interventionist. They sure talk the talk on their messageboards though.
Cambian00 03-15-07, 01:26 AM	Dragons are content to keep to their own, IMO, for the simple reason that every time they get involved with the "lesser races" they end up altering and screwing up the Prophesy which makes their contemplative lives more difficult. Think on this: The last time they got involved, a whole dragonmark was wiped out. I am quite certain that this even put a serious twist on the prophesy. The time before that is when they put the "royal smack-down" on the giants, effectively ending the greatest civilization ever to exist in the world. Quite frankly, they just want to decipher the prophesy. Any time they get involved, they mess it up. For more info on the dragons of eberron you are going to have to wait until October for Keith's newest book "Dragons of Eberron" to be published.
Arcane Guyver 03-15-07, 03:35 AM	Think on this: The last time they got involved, a whole dragonmark was wiped out. I am quite certain that this even put a serious twist on the prophesy. That brings up an interesting thought...I wonder how much conflict, if any, there was amongst the dragons over this action. I mean, I doubt the flights of Argonnessen were completely united in the zeal to wipe out a dragonmarked house, due to morals or even just Prophecy reading.
Sereno 03-15-07, 09:24 AM	Think about it: what does the average dragon want? A secure lair full of gold. This is where you're going wrong ... Eberron dragons aren't particularly interested in a lair full of gold. Eberron's dragons are far more interested in how the Draconic Prophesy is playing out, or manipulating for their own (or others) interests in the case of the Chamber, than they are interested in wealth accumulation. Eberron's dragons are, IMO, much more interesting than those of any other setting. Everywhere else, the most impressive and awe-inspiring of magical/mythical beasts becomes nothing more than a huge pile of XP and treasure waiting to the adventurers.
The Dreaming Duck 03-15-07, 10:54 AM	This is where you're going wrong ... Eberron dragons aren't particularly interested in a lair full of gold. What he said. Please correct me if there are source books addressing this, but why aren't they taking a far more aggressive role in Kholvere? There's a couple of factors here. This has already been addressed in part with the Quori and the rakshasa. It's noted that for the quori, running Riedra isn't what they WANT to do; it's what they have to do, and it's considered a tedious chore. When you're a brilliant, immortal spirit with vast powers, why would you WANT to spend your days organizing an ant farm? Most dragons live in Argonnessen because it's where they can enjoy the company of their peers. For a dragon to go live among humans would be the same sort of thing as a human deciding to go and live among a tribe of chimps in the wild. Beyond this, a dragon away from Argonnessen is a target. This is why the mighty rakshasa stay below the radar, and it's also addressed in Keith's story in Dragons: Worlds Afire. A dragon who publically makes his presence known becomes a target for the Lords of Dust, Erandis d'Vol, Valenar dragonslayers, and who knows what else. Dragons have many powerful enemies. If they remain hidden or in the company of other dragons, they are safe. But if a dragon just appeared in Sharn and publically set up shop, it's going to have people gunning for it. Beyond THIS, we have Xen'drik. There, the dragons DID act as the patrons of the giants... and the giants almost destroyed Eberron with the powers they learned from the dragons. Don't give atomic weapons to chimps... and it's a pain trying to predict how they will abuse the power they receive. Likewise, the interaction between dragons and the Line of Vol resulted in the entire bloodline having to be wiped out. It's dangerous for dragons to mingle with the lesser races, and so they generally avoid it. If the dragons wanted to, they could conquer Khorvaire - or at least destroy it as they did Xen'drik. The fact that they don't shows that they don't want to, either because: they have nothing to gain; the Prophecy shows them that this would be a bad idea; they don't want to openly battle the Lords of Dust, and this would trigger such a conflict; and so on. With all of THAT said, dragons do act in Khorvaire and make use of humans. The Chamber has many human agents and actively manipulates humans. And then there are rogue wyrms. This Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050418a) specifically says "Adventurers might stumble onto a rogue wyrm by accident; battling a thieves' guild, they could be taken by surprise when they discover the true power behind the organization." You could have a dragon as the mastermind of a guild, gang, whatever; it's just not going to act openly, for fear of the wrath of Argonnessen or many other enemies.
Sereno 03-15-07, 11:43 AM	There's a couple of factors here. I agree with everything you've said, but that's not me you've got quoted, there! :)
Cifer 03-15-07, 12:16 PM	Well, as soon as dragons become intelligent enough to figure out that gold is not that important when you don't buy stuff with it, a lot of the traditional dragon plots fall apart. The dragons have everything they want in Argonessen. Conquering something means being responsible for it afterwards - why have the hassle of that when you can just manipulate the events that really matter to you and stay out of sight otherwise?
Daydreamer 03-15-07, 12:26 PM	Some dragons as mentioned stray from the path, i know that several dragons have taken up shop in xendrik and hoard treasure. I think this is more than just a difference of 'living amongst chimps' and that historically, there interminglingly caused disasters ( i DO think this is a major factor though), but i think the dragons are different for an entirely other reason. Culture(and perhaps religion?), the dragons-rather than being a hodge podge of monsters in various places have something resembling a nation. I believe dragons in this world are highly 'mystical' and its not just a question of being more intelligent, but they are probably different in personality and how they think as well. I suspect this is why some dragons become more actively involved, perhaps frustrated with these heavily mystical traditions of the elders (or even believing them to be bunk!). This mystical religious attitude is how i portray the dragons-something of a combination of a hindu mystic, a buddhist monk and catholic priest. Dragons arent just removed by power and history, they are removed by culture and attitude.
Adrez Nesnsid 03-15-07, 12:36 PM	I've always had the impression that they were sort of like the dragons in Ozy and Millie (http://www.ozyandmillie.org/d/20000614.html) in terms of personality etc. etc. etc.
Kensan_Oni 03-16-07, 02:12 AM	In my version of Ebberon, there are public dragons in Khorvaire. In fact, I have placed what two dragons are calling the "Argonnessen Embassy" smack dab in the middle of Dragonroost, where they claim right to part of the Howling Peaks as Draconic Territory and keep watch from it there. After the accidental burning of Dragonroost 300 years ago, over some undisclosed incident, the gnomes haven't bothered them since. Publicly they are known as very odd recluses who do not leave their polymorphed shapes or their embassy hardly ever, although only the house staff for sure knows if anyone leaves. Secretly, the dragons really aren't part of any embassadorial mission at all, but are recruits for agents of the Chamber. They keep an eye on potential in the lesser races, as well as keeping tabs on ancesteral breeding grounds for Metallic Dragons in the Howling Peaks. Another group, much less public, is stationed near Sword Keep, keeping an eye on Dragon's Crown. The Embassadors spend a lot of their time reading Gnomish Inquirers, looking for signs of Abberant Dragonmarks, and figuring out how they add to the dragon prophecy overall. They occasionally call in Abberant Marks to perform greater missions of mysterious importance for them. ... and that's how the dragons in Eberron work so far in my game.
Wymarc 03-16-07, 03:16 PM	what does the average dragon want? A secure lair full of gold. Your "average" dragon accomplishes this by sitting in a cave high up in a mountain (or in a cavern below a fetid swamp, to each their own) and slowly accumulating treasure via raiding or looting the corpses of unlucky adventurers. Wrong. unless I missed a word in the ECS, this is incorrect. The average dragon wants to be undisturbed for a few millenia while they ponder the Draconic Prophecy. You will have to wait for Dragons of Eberron (coming out in October) to learn much more. I personally think that the currency in hoards are probably just handed down as heirlooms, not actually used. As the creators of arcane magic, they can probably make any magic item they want easily.
Joni-san 03-18-07, 11:14 AM	I've always had the impression that they were sort of like the dragons in Ozy and Millie (http://www.ozyandmillie.org/d/20000614.html) in terms of personality etc. etc. etc. Great, now I'm forced to include a Red Dragon with an adopted Shifter son in my next campaign. Damns yous Adrez Nesnsid! :P
CannibalSmith 03-18-07, 12:15 PM	Here's the previous thread on this topic. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=764615)
Adrez Nesnsid 06-30-07, 09:39 PM	BIMP!! :bump:
CannibalSmith 07-01-07, 03:40 AM	Patience mortal, the book most holeeh will come out in due time.