Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OzyBurrfoot 11-08-07, 03:01 PM	I was looking at this feat and I can't figure out why the prereq. includes the Sorcerer Lvl 5. Can only dragons that focus on their arcane spellcasting learn to take a humanoid form? I was thinking about changing the prereq to 5HD, or something like that. Any thoughts?
LordTigernach 11-08-07, 03:05 PM	There's no need to change anything. Dragons acquire sorc levels as they age. Even the White dragon (weakest of the true dragons) can qualify for this feat without taking class levels by the time they are Old.
OzyBurrfoot 11-08-07, 04:31 PM	Yes, but I'd like to run a Dragon PC game and was planning on them all being able to take this feat. The age requirement for dragons to achieve this feat on their on own is too high for my needs. Almost all of the dragons would have an ECL of 20+. What I'm trying to figure out is a way for any dragon character to be able to achieve the prereqs. So the question is; what would be a fair requirement instead of the Sor5 req?
naturax 11-08-07, 04:50 PM	Yes, but I'd like to run a Dragon PC game and was planning on them all being able to take this feat. The age requirement for dragons to achieve this feat on their on own is too high for my needs. Almost all of the dragons would have an ECL of 20+. What I'm trying to figure out is a way for any dragon character to be able to achieve the prereqs. So the question is; what would be a fair requirement instead of the Sor5 req? Just give it to them?
Nived 11-08-07, 09:09 PM	The Dragonlance Campaign Setting 3.5 had a version of this feat which just required the Dragon to be Young Adult. This is what you get when Novels have to be continuity.
OzyBurrfoot 11-08-07, 10:56 PM	Where is it at? I just thumbed through my copy, but didnt see it. -EDIT: Found it, its in the Dragons of Krynn, of course! But it has requirements of Adult age, 5th caster level (non-specific) and is only once per day, not 3/day. So actually the DL version is more restrictive than the Eb. version.
Nived 11-10-07, 12:09 AM	Really? Because I never got Dragons of Krynn but I was aware of the feat... perhaps it was in Age of Mortals or War of the Lance. Meh I guess my memory ain't what it used to be.
Hellcow 11-11-07, 06:43 PM	Almost all of the dragons would have an ECL of 20+. Not really. It requires a sorcerer caster level of 5th, to reflect the fact that some dragons are innately more magical than others, while other dragons (who get the ability automatically) are shapeshifters by nature - and others aren't. It is a significant ability that not all dragons are supposed to possess, which is why it has the prereq. But it's far from requiring CR 20. Here's the breakdown: Silver – Alternate Form gained when Wyrmling, CR 4 Gold – Alternate Form gained when Wyrmling, CR 5 Bronze – Alternate Form gained when Young; CR 7 Brass – Feat available as Young Adult, CR 10 Copper – Feat available as Young Adult, CR 11 Green – Feat available as Adult, CR 13 Red – Feat available as Young Adult, CR 13 Black – Feat available as Mature Adult, CR 14 Blue – Feat available as Adult, CR 14 White – Feat available as Old, CR 15 So if all your characters play silver and gold dragons, you can have shapechangers at CR 4-5; worse comes to worse, you're in the low teens, not the 20s.
Captain_Kobold 11-12-07, 06:40 PM	Uh. While I hate to have to contradict His Infernal Bovinity, I have to point out the differene between CL and ECL. Running into a dragon with Alternate form ability in Eberron, where Dragons aren't really suitable for PCs would be more likely since Dragons have extremely low CR relative to their ECL. If we're talking about PC dragons however, Ozy is right: To get those requirements you are generally looking at an ECL over 20.
Hellcow 11-12-07, 07:16 PM	Uh. While I hate to have to contradict His Infernal Bovinity, I have to point out the differene between CL and ECL. Nope, you're quite right - I didn't read the initial message closely enough, and read CR in place of ECL. However, that still leaves you Silver and Gold wyrmlings.
OzyBurrfoot 11-13-07, 01:44 AM	Hence why I said almost all, not all. And technically the Feat says "sorcerer level 5" not "cast as a 5th level sorcerer" if I wanted to be really nitpicky... :P
Hellcow 11-13-07, 03:11 AM	And technically the Feat says "sorcerer level 5" not "cast as a 5th level sorcerer" if I wanted to be really nitpicky... :P Certainly. I'm just saying that I can clarify the design intent, and requiring separate sorcerer levels wasn't part of that; it should read "caster level 5th" (and in fact, looking at my original manuscript, that's what I wrote; apparently it was changed in editing). From a design perspective, it's a magical ability that some dragons among the metallics possess. Others don't have the ability to manifest it until their own innate magical nature has developed to a certain point. Essentially, the idea is that magic is part of the dragon, and this is what grants them that sorcerer caster level - the raw magic in their blood. They need to possess a certain amount of raw magical power before they can learn to call on it to change shape, something some are never able to master. So it's not that "Only dragons that focus on their arcane casting" can do it - it's that only dragons who have developed a certain amount of raw magical potential can harness it in this way. And for dragons, that raw magical potential comes with age. If you want to run a dragon PC game and you're having trouble with the prereqs, just go ahead and drop them. The rules should never stop you from doing what you want to do as DM - it's your game. But the reason the prereq exists is because of the idea that in canon Eberron, you won't find a red wyrmling using alternate form - that the gold and silver are more adept at shapeshifting than their chromatic cousins, and that it's a rare white that can ever manage to master this art.
OzyBurrfoot 11-13-07, 09:52 AM	That makes sense, thanks. I think I'm going to do that for my game.
Kreistor2 11-13-07, 12:12 PM	Well, I personally wonder why this even deserves a feat. Let's go back to the root of the ability itself. Why do silver and gold dragons get teh ability to shapeshift to humanoid form, and the others do not? The answer is that Silver and Gold dragons are viewed as the most interested in humanoids, due to their strongly good natures. Other metallics have flaws that make them lack the ability to strongly care about humanity, and the chromatics use humanoids, instead of working with them, often through fear and power, which is best done in dragon form. Egotism, arrogance, racial pride -- all of these are parts of the various species of dragons that prevent a desire to reduce themselves to the form of a lesser race. Eberron changes things. Alignment is not as restrictive. That gold dragon can be chaotic evil, while that black dragon can be neutral good. The very reason for gold and silvers having the ability is null and void. A gold dragon does not inherently have good intentions towards humanity, nor does he inherently lack the arrogance of the other colours. For my campaign, I consider all types of dragons to have it inherently, just like the golds and silvers. Only those with the right personality types use it. I certainly don't feel it's worth a feat. In combat, the ability is basically worthless. It lowers the overall challenge of the fight by stripping away a combat effective ability. You're not going to unbalance an encounter by giving that ability to the dragon as a bonus.
Wih 11-14-07, 12:39 AM	If all it needs is Caster Level 5th, then when they get their 1st CL and 5HD, pick up the feat Practiced Spellcaster, they qualify. Sure, it'll take an extra feat - but it'll give their spells a boost too.
Hellcow 11-14-07, 07:31 AM	If all it needs is Caster Level 5th, then when they get their 1st CL and 5HD, pick up the feat Practiced Spellcaster, they qualify. Sure, it'll take an extra feat - but it'll give their spells a boost too. Good point. Likewise, if you use Sovereign Archetypes, the Loredrake gets an innate bonus to its caster level and can qualify for the feat at a younger age. We actually discussed the possibility of granting all dragons alternate form while developing the book, and ultimately decided against it. With the work of the Chamber, it's important to me that any dragon has the potential to shift form, that it's not all the work of the gold & silver corps. However, for me, if you say that ALL dragons have the power to shift form... it just changes them. Even if you say that most just choose not to use it, it still makes them a different sort of creature. They become a little too much like the rakshasa; suddenly all the powerful folk of Eberron are shapeshifters. So we took this approach - to say that dragons of any color can learn to do it, but it's not an innate power of all dragons. Kreistor is quite right that it weakens a dragon's combat potential. My immediate reaction is that a dragon who spends a feat on Alternate Form isn't trying to be a combat monster; he's a spy. A dragon who takes the Persuasive feat is robbing from his combat ability too, but for many Chamber dragons Persuasive could be far more appropriate than Improved Bull Rush; they aren't part of the Light of Siberys and haven't spent their lives in battle. A compromise between the two approaches is to grant it as a bonus feat based on Chamber training or something else. So all your PC dragons have it; but it's not something all dragons can do. It's a fine distinction between "All dragons can do it but many choose not to" and "All dragons can develop the ability in time, but it requires power and sacrifice"; the latter approach still says that any dragon can BECOME a shapechanger. But that's my preference. Not that this in any way invalidates Kreistor's choice. In fact, my original point was that we seriously considered just giving all dragons alternate form; it's certainly a viable option.
Kreistor2 11-14-07, 12:57 PM	Oh, note that I made this choice almost two years before Dragons of Eberron was published. I didn't choose this method in contention with that book. I still don't own DoE, so I don't know exactly what it says. Trust me: my Rakshasa and dragons are very different. That comes across in their styles, not their superficial abilities. Dragons are predators, and have the mindset of dive bombing predators. The Rakshasa are subtle manipulators by instinct. Dragons that spend their lives studying the leaves on trees with infinite patience should not be doing the same things as a species that ruled the planet for countless eons.