Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evenglare 07-25-07, 02:55 AM	I know kalashtar can NOT . Warforged dont sleep... In the PHB it says elves dream when they are meditating. My friend said in eberron they do not. Basically my question is , what races dream?
Concerto 07-25-07, 03:45 AM	My DM says that Warforged can dream if their brains develop in a certain way, and if they relax for long periods of time... I don't recall anything from actual material saying that Warforged can't dream, or that Elves do or don't.
Shady314 07-25-07, 03:59 AM	Officially Warforged do not sleep and therefore do not dream. Elves do not sleep they enter a dreamLIKE trance for 4 hours. Read the PHB entry which goes out of it's way to explain that elves don't dream the way the rest of the races do. If you need further proof look at the nightmare spell also in the PHB. Reality Your DM may change anything at will for no reason at all besides the fact he wants too.
Evenglare 07-25-07, 04:12 AM	basicly ... can elves go into the realm of the dal quor when they dream....
Shady314 07-25-07, 04:16 AM	basicly ... can elves go into the realm of the dal quor when they dream.... Since elves do not dream nor sleep they do not contact Dal Quor. They could travel there physically though. It is a plane after all. That's tricky obviously with it's permanently remote status. They could project their minds there through magic/ritual. I can only assume you did not bother to read the PHB entry or check the nightmare spell so here's an important line from the SRD. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm "Creatures who don’t sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell." Interestingly enough it appears that EVERY other playable race but the kalashtar, warforged and elves sleep. Even Dragons, Monsters of all kinds, even Magical Beats probably etc. Constructs and outsiders don't.
Evenglare 07-25-07, 04:59 AM	Page 15 , players hand book.2nd column. 2nd paragraph . 4th line. And I quote... " While meditating , an elf dreams, though these dreams are acually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice.
The White Sorcerer 07-25-07, 06:26 AM	Page 15 , players hand book.2nd column. 2nd paragraph . 4th line. And I quote... " While meditating , an elf dreams, though these dreams are acually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. Exactly, so they're not actual dreams, right?
Evenglare 07-25-07, 06:45 AM	well, are they dreams, in which the elf excercizes. Or are they Just mental exercizes in which an elf participates when he goes into trance. As stated in the nightmare spell, It says it cant affect races who do not sleep. (elves but not half elves) . But it does not mention about dreaming. If it did , it would say . Doesnt affect those who do not dream (elves, constructs) . Meaning it says they they do not sleep, which is granted, but it doesnt mention about them NOT dreaming... Hmmmm.... I just got done reading sharn : the city of towers.. and pierce has a dream. Which raises further questions .
Amaril 07-25-07, 10:08 AM	Keep reading the series and you'll see that neither warforged nor elves dream.
Kaodi 07-25-07, 10:31 AM	I wonder what happens to elves who are knocked unconscious...
Crake 07-25-07, 12:00 PM	I always wrote off the elves not dreaming thing as remnant from the Giant Qouri war. It wouldn't be good for the Giants to have a race of slaves that could be influenced in their sleep be their hated enemies. So instead of thinking of magical protection like they did for themselves, they probably just severed the elves' link to Dal Qour. The mental excercise is probably a coping mechanism the elves evolved to keep themselves sane when they could no longer dream.
Shady314 07-25-07, 03:40 PM	well, are they dreams, in which the elf excercizes. Or are they Just mental exercizes in which an elf participates when he goes into trance. :banghead: White Sorceror already bolded the correct part for you. Is the confusion with the word actually? Actually means "In truth" or "in point of fact." It's supposed to be a clarification that these are not "dreams" as we would first think, such as, "A series of images, ideas, emotions, and sensations occurring involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep." But merely "A state of abstraction; a trance." As stated in the nightmare spell, It says it cant affect races who do not sleep. (elves but not half elves) . But it does not mention about dreaming. If it did , it would say . Doesnt affect those who do not dream (elves, constructs) . Meaning it says they they do not sleep, which is granted, but it doesnt mention about them NOT dreaming... What????? The spell description did not bother to list creatures that don't dream. The only parentheses follow the "don't sleep" line. This is because the word dream means two different things! Shocking yes? Elves CAN dream (as in fantasize, hope for things, imagine etc.) but they don't dream when they sleep! Please tell me this is clear now. Constructs don't dream by any definition of the word because they don't think NOR do they sleep. It also is worded that way for weird situations, where a race (like the Kalashtar) DO sleep but DON'T dream. When the PHB was written I don't think there were any races that actually slept but somehow still dreamed. Sleep was seen as a requirement for dreaming. Otherwise you're day dreaming. I just got done reading sharn : the city of towers.. and pierce has a dream. Which raises further questions . 1) Pierce is a super special DM PC. 2) Novels are not canon. 3) As was already pointed out if you read the whole series the novels actually show neither elves nor warforged dream. (In the connect to Dal Quor way) 4) Did he have a dream that connected him to Dal Quor or did he enter an altered state of mind that SEEMED to be a dream... ;) The answer will come if you keep reading. To sum up. There is some confusion here because the word Dream has multiple meanings. The important meaning though is the kind of dreams that connect to Dal Quor and elves and warforged and kalashtar do not have those.
LuciferNietzsche 07-29-07, 10:38 AM	Races that do not sleep, do not dream. No dreams, no trip to Dal Quor unless you go the hard way. Some races sleep and STILL don't dream. The ones that don't sleep and are not immune to sleep, can be put to sleep, and may then dream at the DM's discretion. If they can't be put to sleep, then no dreaming. Being knocked unconscious does not count as being asleep in D&D, so while some people have dream experiences when knocked out or near-death, it doesn't count in the game. Now, as for the nature of dreams. In D&D, most especially Eberron, dreams are NOT involuntary mental spasms of a relaxed and resting mind. They are a spiritual journey to another plane of existence. Elves "dream" like we do in reality, but they lucid dream. Everyone else psychically GOES to Dal Quor. Now drop it.
Belabras 08-01-07, 03:15 AM	Races that dream: Human Dwarf Halfling Half-Elf Half-Orc Orc Goblinoid Elan Dromite Duergar Half-Giant Maened Xeph Thri-Kreen Githyanki Githzerai Almost every other non-Eberron race Races that don't dream: Elves Drow Elves most other Elf subraces Warforged Modrons All constructs A few PRCs Special cases as yet unexplained: Dragons and Draconic races (I suspect the Draconic Eidolon in Dal Quor plays a role here.)
Demangel 08-05-07, 09:09 PM	If elven dreamlike meditations are something they are trained to do... What do they do before they are trained to do it? Say an elf is raised by dwarves who never saw an elf before, and didn't know to teach the elf how to meditate? Would they sleep? would they dream? would they even know to meditate? Would they meditate but dream like humans? Remember I'm only asking because it says elves are TRAINED to perform these little meditative exercises when they meditate... Indeed wouldn't they need to be trained to meditate? Or is it assumed that elves are born knowing how to enter a meditative state (IE instinct). Does it also follow that the mental exercises they undertake while meditating are also partly instinctual and without training still follow some kind of pattern which is only expanded upon and honed by training? Serious questions all.
Hellcow 08-05-07, 10:35 PM	Speaking purely to the "Can elves go to Dal Quor", my intention was that any race immune to dream and nightmare does not in fact go to Dal Quor... Thus, the elves, who don't sleep at all, and the kalashtar, who sleep but do not truly dream. That's just my opinion, of course. But it's what I've believed long before Eberron. I've always been interested in dream adventures - my first published piece of RPG work was "Dreaming on the Verge of Strife" (http://www.atlas-games.com/product_tables/AG2151.php), for Atlas Games' Over The Edge (http://www.atlas-games.com/overtheedge/index.php) (which remains one of my favorite games). I also did the Oneiromancy section for Atlas Games' Occult Lore (http://www.atlas-games.com/product_tables/AG3214.php); since a considerable section of it is devoted to adventuring in dreams (in far more detail than my Dragon piece on Dal Quor), how to work elves and other sleepless characters into a dreaming adventure was something I specifically had to address. But, my trip down memory lane aside, here's my opinions (and remember, they're only opinions). If elven dreamlike meditations are something they are trained to do... What do they do before they are trained to do it? Say an elf is raised by dwarves who never saw an elf before, and didn't know to teach the elf how to meditate? Would they sleep? would they dream? would they even know to meditate? Would they meditate but dream like humans? IMO, an elf needs to rest his mind for a certain period each day. He does not actually GO to sleep, but he needs to let his thoughts drift - to relax his mind and let go of the stresses of the day. That's essentially a simple biological fact. An elf who doesn't relax in this way will suffer the same consequences as a human who doesn't sleep. Again, in my opinion, what the training in trance does is helps an elf maximize the benefit of this time. Essentially, I would say that an elf with NO experience in trance meditiation would likely require six hours of relaxation each day. The training focuses that, allowing the elf to get the same benefits from only four hours of relaxation. With that said, I'd also say that intelligent elves could develop their own methods of trance meditation. Just as there are dozens of martial arts and forms of meditation in our world, I'd assume the same would be true of trance. In Eberron, I think that the Tairnadal use an entirely different form of trance meditation than the Aereni do; the Tairnadal reach out to their patron ancestors, while the Aereni reflect on the journey of life and death. The typical urban elves of Khorvaire have their own traditions; elves in the Church of the Silver Flame may have developed a form of trance based on the light of the Flame, while a Greensinger druid listens to the song of the wild as she meditates. So, my point is that the elf raised by dwarves might have no trance technique at all, in which case he's just going to have to sit around for six hours trying to relax his thoughts. However, he may also develop his own unique trance technique, based on his experiences; he may contemplate earth and stone, the fire of the forge and the shaping of metal. An Aereni may consider his technique to be somewhat haphazard, compared to the Aereni trance skills that have been honed over thousands of years; the Mror elf has taught himself, essentially acting on instinct. But in game terms, it's just as effective. So in my opinion, elves never sleep or dream. Even if they don't actively go through trance meditation exercises, they need to relax their thoughts and essentially daydream - an action that doesn't take you anywhere near Dal Quor. And personally (again, just my opinion!!!) I'd say that an elf who chooses not to meditate should require a longer period of rest - that the reason for the exercises is to maximize the efficiency of the trance period. But that's me. :)
Hellcow 08-06-07, 01:13 AM	Speaking purely to the "Can elves go to Dal Quor", my intention was that any race immune to dream and nightmare does not in fact go to Dal Quor... Thus, the elves, who don't sleep at all, and the kalashtar, who sleep but do not truly dream. Just explaining the logic behind this: The quori invade dreams ability is just that - the ability of a quori residing on Dal Quor to literally invade and shape your dreams. If you can't be affected by nightmare, then whatever you're doing, you're not going to Dal Quor. The kalashtar sleep, and during sleep see dreamlike images that are passed to them by their own quori spirit. But they aren't actually dreaming, aren't connected to Dal Quor, and thus can't be targeted by dream or nightmare.
ArcTan 08-06-07, 02:06 AM	If elven dreamlike meditations are something they are trained to do... What do they do before they are trained to do it? Say an elf is raised by dwarves who never saw an elf before, and didn't know to teach the elf how to meditate? Would they sleep? would they dream? would they even know to meditate? Would they meditate but dream like humans? Remember I'm only asking because it says elves are TRAINED to perform these little meditative exercises when they meditate... Indeed wouldn't they need to be trained to meditate? Or is it assumed that elves are born knowing how to enter a meditative state (IE instinct). A little of both. I would say that Elves are born with the instinct to go into a trance every day when they need their mental rest, but it takes training and practice to make the most of this trance. I wouldn't even say it takes *particular* training, though, just that an Elf learns to discipline himself better and better in this trance over time. Speaking about real-life meditation, being "better at meditating" is usually a matter of thinking of meditating as something to get better at, and consciously paying attention to what happens when you meditate. If you've gotten past the point where you think of meditating as closing your eyes and veging out until the meditation leader lets you go, then you will get better at it just by doing it over and over again. It's your own mind and your own brain, no one knows how it works better than you, and no one can actually give you a secret "technique" that makes you better at organizing it that you couldn't do yourself just by paying attention to your own thoughts.