Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koesherbacon 07-22-07, 05:40 PM	According to the ECS everything in the MM1, has its place in Eberron. We all know that. But I have a question about Driders. How can they be accounted for in Eberron? Since the Drow would not worship Lolth, nor do they live in "The Underdark" how are Driders created? Are they creatures that have always been Elf+Spiders? Would a member of The Dark Six have created them? Maybe it was Khyber herself? I'm just a little confused about where they fit in Eberron. Thanks for the help!
ArcTan 07-22-07, 05:46 PM	Races of Eberron talks about Driders as being a separate, true-breeding race of Drow-based beings that ordinary Drow frequently believed to be somehow marked or blessed by Vulkoor. Both the ordinary spider-based and scorpion-based versions of Driders (called Scorrow) exist, possibly among others -- unlike in core D&D, the idea that Driders are specifically created by a god based on that god's true form is probably untrue, and Driders are probably just another kind of monstrous race made of animals and humanoids melded together, like the Sphinxes, Centaurs and Minotaurs of core D&D. Andy Collins wrote up a way to build Scorrow here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20040709a although you can just as easily use MM2 Scorpionfolk for them. (Remember it's not necessarily true that they're transformed Drow, the Drow just think so -- they're their own true-breeding race with their own tribes that live near the Drow.)
Syltorian 07-22-07, 05:56 PM	Despite what Races of Eberron says, I'd be loathe to use it. It's official, sure, but I'd rather leave the Drow their scorpions and scorrows and put spiders and driders elsewhere. So here are some of my perfectly unofficial ideas: If you do believe they need a connection to the Drow, well, look at these Dark Elves. They were created by the Giants. So maybe the Giants created the Driders, too, from drow and giant spiders. The experiment might have been a failure, depending on what their aims were, but they created a true-breeding culture. Want to keep the idea that drow can change into Driders? Well, maybe it is some kind of disease, or a parasite. Perhaps a certain kind of spider, instead of laying its eggs in the bodies of its victims, causes a transformation that results in a Drider, and works only with drow for some reason. If you are like me, and don't want them in Xen'drik: How about the Mournland? They simply got fused together, usually from elves and spiders that were around. Most of them are former heirs of Phiarlan, who had their centre in Metrol. Their higher-ups escaped, but the rest were left behind. Don't want them to be a recent, and as yet mostly unknown creature? Perhaps it is a secret known to the Houses of Shadow, who have elite assassins who underwent this transformation. Perhaps it was an invention of Mordain the Fleshweaver, who took the secret with him. Want it to be more connected to blessings or curses of a deity of a kind? The Children of Winter venerate the Gloaming and are quite into vermin. Perhaps Driders are created in special rituals inflicted upon either willing candidates or especially pure victims, twisting them into these monstrosities. The ritual can only be done in special sites - the Gloaming, a pit of spiders, or something of that kind. But as said, RoE is the official version... these are just some little alternatives.
Koesherbacon 07-22-07, 06:00 PM	Thanks for that input, Syltorian. Those are all solid ideas! What are your thoughts on having them be good old regular elves, and for some unknown reason when two elves with aberrant marks mate, there is a very small chance that a drider is the result?
Rerecros 07-22-07, 06:24 PM	:D I have them as created from regular elves transformed by the daelkyr during the invasion.
Rechan 07-22-07, 06:53 PM	:D I have them as created from regular elves transformed by the daelkyr during the invasion. I don't think elves were on Khorvaire at that time? Also, a VERY OBVIOUS source is being neglected here: The Aranea (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aranea.htm). Driders could be: 1) An offshot of the Aranea, a fusion of the humanoid and spider forms. 2) Normal (but rare) genetic mutation that happens during Aranea breeding. 3) The result of an Aranea breeding with the humanoid species it can transform into. 4) The Aranea ancestors.
Rerecros 07-22-07, 07:02 PM	I don't think elves were on Khorvaire at that time? WRONG! The elves finished settling in Arenal in 38,000 YK, and the daelkyr invade in 9,000 YK. :emp: How dare you doubt me impertinent fool. :P
yrogerg 07-22-07, 07:14 PM	WRONG! The elves finished settling in Arenal in 38,000 YK, and the daelkyr invade in 9,000 YK. :emp: How dare you doubt me impertinent fool. :P Aerenal isn't Kourvaire, though. When did they migrate to that continent? I don't have my ECS in front of me, but IIRC, it was after that whole Vol fiasco, which isn't more than a few millennia earlier.
Rerecros 07-22-07, 07:18 PM	A thousand years before the daelkyr invaded, they colonized on the mainland though it didn't last long. And Kourvaire is a continent, Aerenal being a country of that continent. Aerenal was close enough to be affected by the invasion, but not close enough to be destoyed easily by it.
yrogerg 07-22-07, 07:30 PM	A thousand years before the daelkyr invaded, though it didn't last long. And Kourvaire is a continent, Aerenal being a country of that continent. Aerenal was close enough to be affected by the invasion, but not close enough to be destoyed easily by it. Huh. I've seen very few people lump Aerenal together with Khourvaire proper, particularly as it only looks to be marginally closer to Khourvaire than either Xen'drik or Argonnessen, and an island nation to boot. Not only that, but I haven't really read anything that suggested that Aerenal was affected at all by the Daelkyr invasion. Can you provide sources?
Rerecros 07-22-07, 07:39 PM	Geographically, Aerenal large land mass off the coast of the mainland, about as much a part of Khourvaire as Great Britain is to europe. As I said in my original post, this is drawn from my game, there are no outside sources to my knowledge that state Aerenal was effected by the invasion, nor do any say they didn't attack Aerenal.
yrogerg 07-22-07, 07:52 PM	Geographically, Aerenal large land mass off the coast of the mainland, about as much a part of Khourvaire as Great Britain is to europe. ...If North America was only two Channel's lengths away from Europe. Seriously. The nearest reaches of Xen'drik is only marginally further from Khourvaire than Aerenal, and the Frostfell, another distinct continent, only marginally further still. As I said in my original post, this is drawn from my game, there are no outside sources to my knowledge that state Aerenal was effected by the invasion, nor do any say they didn't attack Aerenal. Sure, you're free to do what you want in your game, though it was less well-stated that Aerenal's being affected was a homebrewed detail. Still, as written in the books, the main locus of the Invasion was the Shadow Marches, with devastation from the Daelkyr spreading outward from there, and mainly hurting the Goblinoids, more or less. t's lent some credence to a theory that I'm a particular fan of: the Dragons, far from not being involved, meant to let the Daelkyr invasion proceed as far as it did, and then teach the Orcs how to defeat them precisely when they did, in preparation for the Dragonmarks races. With the invasion ended, the Houses of Shadow could safely migrate to Kourvaire, as could the Humans, unchecked by a strong Goblinoid empire, while the Gnomes and Halflings were able to florish and found civilizations in the ashes of the Dhakanni empire. Meanwhile, the Orcs survived, though diminished, setting the stage for the Half-breed House Tharaask.
Rerecros 07-22-07, 08:03 PM	It's never stated how exactly far the daelkyr spead before it was over so you can't say I'm wrong. And I'd say the distance from the mainland was an effective buffer, but didn't make the elves invulnerable to attack from the mainland.
yrogerg 07-22-07, 08:24 PM	It's never stated how exactly far the daelkyr spead before it was over so you can't say I'm wrong. I never accused you of being wrong, just of homebrewing, as there isn't anything official that says, or even suggests, that they were. There's nothing wrong with it -I've done loads and loads to the Frostfell- but it is still what it is. However, it does sometimes bear clarifying which parts actually are homebrew (in this case, "Elves were affected by the Daelkyr Invasion") at work.
Koesherbacon 07-22-07, 09:46 PM	So basically the Daeklyr are the most likely source for the drider's existence on Eberron?
Rechan 07-22-07, 11:48 PM	Another thought that comes to mind - if you want to put them in Xen'Drik among the Drow - is the Umbragaden. The Umbragaden are Drow who were members of the Qalabrin who were driven into Khyber before the city was destroyed. There they were laid siege by the Aberrations of Khyber. They sell their souls for the shadowy powers of Warlocks and Soulknives, to fight the aberrations. Here, Driders are either: 1) Special individuals who have undergone the transformation as an elite stealth warriors or guardians. 2) Experimentations by the Qalabrin or Umbragaden using the dead and the materials at hand - namely giant spiders that are native to Khyber where they rest. 3) The mutative energies of Khyber effecting a certain group of Umbragaden. After all, Drider have the benefit of being part spider - they can make webs, and can take a fight into a three-dimensional level, perching at the ceiling of caverns and slinging spells and arrows down on ground-bound aberrations.
ArcTan 07-23-07, 02:20 AM	WRONG! The elves finished settling in Arenal in 38,000 YK, and the daelkyr invade in 9,000 YK. :emp: How dare you doubt me impertinent fool. :P Aerenal isn't in Khorvaire. It's a different continent. Aerenal was untouched by the Daelkyr invasion. Ten thousand years ago the Tairnadal Elves colonized the land that is now known as Valenar, but the Hobgoblins drove them back out "millennia" before the Daelkyr came and the Empire fell.
ArcTan 07-23-07, 02:26 AM	It's never stated how exactly far the daelkyr spead before it was over so you can't say I'm wrong. And I'd say the distance from the mainland was an effective buffer, but didn't make the elves invulnerable to attack from the mainland. In Hellcow's posts on this forum he's made it pretty clear that his concept for the Daelkyr invasion is that it only occurred in Khorvaire, and any spread outside of it, if any, was extremely limited. After all, they completely wiped out the Dhakaani Empire and its culture. If they'd done the same in Aerenal then the Aereni wouldn't *have* that thousands-of-years-old culture going back to the war against the Giants.
ArcTan 07-23-07, 02:30 AM	Geographically, Aerenal large land mass off the coast of the mainland, about as much a part of Khourvaire as Great Britain is to europe. Great Britain has a *lot* more interaction with Europe than Aerenal ever had with Khorvaire. In modern Khorvaire, Aerenal is hardly even ever *mentioned* as a factor in Five Nations politics. As yrogerg has pointed out, Aerenal is hardly any closer to Khorvaire than the shores of Xen'drik, and yet expeditions to Xen'drik are rare, expensive and take a very long time.
Rerecros 07-23-07, 02:39 AM	Aerenal isn't in Khorvaire. It's a different continent. Aerenal was untouched by the Daelkyr invasion. Prove it. In Hellcow's posts on this forum he's made it pretty clear that his concept for the Daelkyr invasion is that it only occurred in Khorvaire, and any spread outside of it, if any, was extremely limited. Define Limited. After all, they completely wiped out the Dhakaani Empire and its culture. If they'd done the same in Aerenal then the Aereni wouldn't *have* that thousands-of-years-old culture going back to the war against the Giants. Your wording is a little funny, but I think you mean they wouldn't be here today. The Daelkyr were around for four thousand years, their seat of power was the fallen Dhakaani Empire, but they had more than enough resources and time to cause trouble to the surrounding regions, though not enough to wipe them all out. Great Britain has a *lot* more interaction with Europe than Aerenal ever had with Khorvaire. In modern Khorvaire, Aerenal is hardly even ever *mentioned* as a factor in Five Nations politics. As yrogerg has pointed out, Aerenal is hardly any closer to Khorvaire than the shores of Xen'drik, and yet expeditions to Xen'drik are rare, expensive and take a very long time. Geologically, not politically you twit. And we are talking about the Daelkyr, they wouldn't use crappy elemental sailboats, they'd make giant flying whales with laser beam eyes. Oh, and double-posting is for buttmunches.
ArcTan 07-23-07, 03:09 AM	Prove it. The ECS entry for Aerenal refers to it as the "island-continent" of Aerenal. It's certainly large enough to be an island-continent on the world map, and also about as far away as Xen'drik. Geologically, not politically you twit. And we are talking about the Daelkyr, they wouldn't use crappy elemental sailboats, they'd make giant flying whales with laser beam eyes. Oh, and double-posting is for buttmunches. ITYM "geographically". And the two are linked -- there'd probably be more interaction if it was easier to get from Aerenal to Khorvaire (like, if Aerenal were actually as close as the Lhazaar Principalities).
Rerecros 07-23-07, 03:14 AM	The ECS entry for Aerenal refers to it as the "island-continent" of Aerenal. It's certainly large enough to be an island-continent on the world map, and also about as far away as Xen'drik. I was referring to the "Aerenal was untouched by the Daelkyr invasion." part. ITYM "geographically". And the two are linked -- there'd probably be more interaction if it was easier to get from Aerenal to Khorvaire (like, if Aerenal were actually as close as the Lhazaar Principalities). Yeah, but there's not as many humanoids to mutilate up there. Edit: it wasn't a war of conquest, they would attack the largest, closest concentration of sentient beings, even when doing so was tactically unsound.
yrogerg 07-23-07, 07:46 AM	So basically the Daeklyr are the most likely source for the drider's existence on Eberron? Honestly, issues of whether the Daelkyr invasion ever affected Aerenal aside, I still wouldn't peg it as the most likely source. Compare the Drider to the Daelkyr's other creations from the ECS: typically, when the Daelkyr create a creature, they create a twisted monstrosity that's barely reconizably as having its origins in those original creatures. Grafting the torso of a humanoid onto the butt of a random animal is hardly their MO.
yrogerg 07-23-07, 07:53 AM	Define Limited. Sufficiently limited that, even though Xen'drik is *much* closer to the Shadow Marches than Aerenal, there aren't any unsealed Daelkyr running around the continent mucking things up?
Rauric 07-23-07, 08:16 AM	So basically the Daeklyr are the most likely source for the drider's existence on Eberron? My DM had a seperate group of drow worship some demon spider " godess" that was trying to coruppt the Vulkoor worshipers. She made her "special ones" driders.
ArcTan 07-23-07, 07:56 PM	Sufficiently limited that, even though Xen'drik is *much* closer to the Shadow Marches than Aerenal, there aren't any unsealed Daelkyr running around the continent mucking things up? The Aerenal are protected by the enormous Irian manifest zone in their country that empowers their living gods, the Undying Court. That's a pretty good justification for how come they don't have Daelkyr there.
Ellorin 07-25-07, 03:21 AM	Another thought that comes to mind - if you want to put them in Xen'Drik among the Drow - is the Umbragaden. The Umbragaden are Drow who were members of the Qalabrin who were driven into Khyber before the city was destroyed. There they were laid siege by the Aberrations of Khyber. They sell their souls for the shadowy powers of Warlocks and Soulknives, to fight the aberrations. Here, Driders are either: 1) Special individuals who have undergone the transformation as an elite stealth warriors or guardians. 2) Experimentations by the Qalabrin or Umbragaden using the dead and the materials at hand - namely giant spiders that are native to Khyber where they rest. 3) The mutative energies of Khyber effecting a certain group of Umbragaden. After all, Drider have the benefit of being part spider - they can make webs, and can take a fight into a three-dimensional level, perching at the ceiling of caverns and slinging spells and arrows down on ground-bound aberrations. I associate them with the Umbragen as well, but in my campaign the driders are to the Umbragen what a dolgaunt is to a hobgoblin or a neogi to a dwarf. They are the ultimate atrocity and their greatest enemy, right after the daelkyr themselves.
Rerecros 07-25-07, 11:13 AM	I'm making a Daelkyr with a spider fetish. It's primary minions include Arachnoid Creatures (Template), Ettercaps, driders, Neogi, Chwidencha, shunned, and anything other weird spider based things, which covers a lot of material. Help fleshing him out is appreciated :)
Bluebrush 07-25-07, 02:16 PM	I like the umbragen idea. I'd also suggest that maybe they could exist in Xen'drik in the same sort of way as the Scorrow. Except the Drow would regard them as cursed by Vulkoor instead of blessed.
Rerecros 07-25-07, 03:17 PM	Oh, and I decided to change my version of the driders. They were created by the Daelkyr (the spider fetish one from my previous post), but were originally goblinoid. My Driders reproduce by paralyzing a humanoid, cocooning them in silk and transforming them into driders with magic. Twisting their minds and bodies but retaining some semblance of their former selves. So the driders my PCs encountered were originally elves. :D
NarlethDrider 07-25-07, 04:37 PM	i'll throw some ideas & artwork toward your spider fetished(ed) Dalkeyr (i have one in my Ebberon:)