Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 06-04-07, 09:31 PM	Inspired by something yrogerg said in the Duergar thread. Drow slaves. Someone that goes to Xen'Drik to bring back "rare fauna" to sell, who just so happens to also be a slave trader. The question I've got though, is how hard would it be to "break" a drow into being a suitable slave? Could you break them? If you couldn't break an adult, you could always take children, the younger the better to raise as slaves... Dammit, I think I just went from a way to give a "disreputable" NPC a hot drow love slave and came up with a way to have a drow PC while sidestepping the whole xenophobia thing (or at least trading it for innate fear of the pink skins as being harsh masters). Drow PCs? This thread does not exist. *waves hand* This is not the thread you are looking for. Move along.
yrogerg 06-04-07, 09:49 PM	Inspired by something yrogerg said in the Duergar thread. Drow slaves. Someone that goes to Xen'Drik to bring back "rare fauna" to sell, who just so happens to also be a slave trader. The question I've got though, is how hard would it be to "break" a drow into being a suitable slave? Could you break them? If you couldn't break an adult, you could always take children, the younger the better to raise as slaves... Dammit, I think I just went from a way to give a "disreputable" NPC a hot drow love slave and came up with a way to have a drow PC while sidestepping the whole xenophobia thing (or at least trading it for innate fear of the pink skins as being harsh masters). Well, not only Drow PCs, but the odd Drow NPC showing up in Kourvaire, potentially as an antagonist. Such a Drow could just as easily end up being a serial killer or (lower-case) assassin-for-hire; that the latter tends to be the easiest way to play an Evil-aligned PC is simply a coincidence :) (on a somewhat related note, I need to get around to statting out that Drow (Monk/)Spellthief I wanted to use in one of my games; in terms of pure awesomeness as a killer of spellcasters, this character would be awesome) ...And, hey, at least we haven't yet mentioned how likely it is that said Drow PC is to be a champion of individual freedom, and thus having more than a passing chance at being CG.
davethebrave371 06-04-07, 09:57 PM	Our first and second sessions of the Eberron game I'm currently running (still strong after over a year and a half) involved a group of drow hunting the party for days without the party ever making the spot or listen checks, and when they finally noticed something, it wasn't enough to know what was following them. The drow basically just wanted any of the magical and/or high quality gear for themselves, and were shooting darts with sleeping poison at them (as they weren't xenocidal just xenophobic). Unbeknownst to the party, two of the seven players were playing evil characters with a capital E (just hiding it very well), and one of those two was the last member awake...and there was only one drow left. However, when he made one of his poison saves, he dropped prone anyway, and waited for the combat to play out. He went up to one of the fallen drow and grabbed a dart out of his pouch, and crept behind the last remaining drow alive with amazing rolls, and jabbed it into his neck as he was checking to see if a fallen comrade was alive. Just by luck of the rolls the first to awaken from the poison was the other evil character, in the middle of an interrogation of the last surviving drow. It hadn't gotten violent at this point, but by the time the other characters had awoken...let's just say the two evil character had formed a..."special bond." The main point of that rambling story (oh, and both of those chars have died...evil chars don't tend to last long when overtly evil in my games, through the other PCs, not me) was that even under intense torture (including, but not limited to, stabbing in the leg and twisting the blade this way and that and scraping along the bone, cutting off an ear and making a necklace of it in front of the drow, cutting off both his eyelids) he didn't betray the location of his tribe or anything of their purpose. This has established, in the minds of my players, an extraordinarily strong-willed and loyal image of the drow. Of course, that was just the one tribe, but I've generally decided that the majority of the tribes are like that. Oh, and they killed him after all that. Vile people, those two.
tallric_kruush 06-04-07, 10:18 PM	Wow, Dave. Wow. Drow are individuals, same as anyone else. Some will be tougher than others. Yet, for two reasons I sort of imagine them as particularly strongwilled. One reason is that they've managed to survive so long (40,000+ years) in a very tough environment. Sure, any of the humanoid races could've done it. They did it. That takes a tough people. Secondly, a sort of "metagame" reason, is their higher than average Charisma scores. I realize Willpower (or Will in this case) is more represented by Wisdom in RAW. To me, though, their high Cha scores indicate a people of strong personalities. These types would likely resist subjugation longer. Thirdly (I didn't know I had a third...:thinks:), I think their commonly xenophobic culture has an almost arrogant view of non-drow. They're the ones who've survived Xen'drik; they're the ones who have proven themselves the heirs/protectors (depending on tribe and such) of the Giant legacy; they're.....you get the point. I could see this type of "superiority complex", or intense pride, working in their favor when resisting subjugation. Edymnion, I'm shocked.:eek: What kind of person is into hot drow love slaves, anyway??... :shifty:
Revvecor 06-04-07, 10:25 PM	The sex slave concept is not to far off, given the artwork in the Explorers Handbook having a Drow holding onto several leashes with collared Drow attached.
tallric_kruush 06-04-07, 10:30 PM	The sex slave concept is not to far off, given the artwork in the Explorers Handbook having a Drow holding onto several leashes with collared Drow attached. Yes, that one seems to have been drawn by someone who didn't understand that Eberron drow are not FR drow who simply happen to live in the jungle. Can you imagine living in the jungle in that dress?? Not that I wear dresses...
Revvecor 06-04-07, 10:37 PM	Still it would make for some interesting encounters.:bow:
Identitystolen 06-05-07, 12:46 AM	Considering the whole history as slaves things and how they revere those in the uprising, I don't think having a drow slave would be the greatest thing in the world. I mean they'd probably get themselves killed fighting the captors. If they win they're heroes continuing the fight for freedom. If they die they become martyrs and are revered by their decedents.
Sarlax 06-05-07, 02:31 AM	Drow would be much harder to train as slaves than many other humanoids. Their high Charisma is one reason, of course. They have strong personalities and will actually draw more sympathy from the would-be trainer than most subjects. They are also more Intelligent and thus better able to find ways to maintain their independence. Drow have a racial bonus on Will saves for resist spells and spell resistance, which means you're going to have a tough time breaking them with magic. That said, real world humans have been enslaving intelligent, willful people for thousands of years. They could pull it off again in Eberron. The easiest path might be to abduct families, using the children as hostages to keep the parents in line.
Ellorin 06-05-07, 03:31 AM	Besides, the identity of the slaver(humanoid or not) should be accounted too. I also wonder where is the market and who will be the buyers...I find it somewhat hard to imagine a thriving drow slavemarket, at least in the 5 nations, Zilargo and Mror holds. There is Darguun, I suppose, but still...
Shady314 06-05-07, 04:54 AM	Slavery is outlawed in the 5N isn't it? Warforged being an exception till the Treaty of Thronehold. There's indentured servitude in Karnath and Thrane though that may just be for warforged. Darguun we know does have a slave market and probably Droaam. Probably the Principalities. So not a whole lot of places to take your Drow slave. I also think a Drow would make a pretty poor slave. Their resistance to magic means you'll have to break them mundanely and their culture/society makes that difficult. I know by RAW a Drow speaks Common but I think in Eberron most shouldn't. So now you've also got to teach them the language. They've got light blindness so you wouldn't want to use them in the daytime. And you'd always have to be wary of their SLA's or pay to get some short of magical shackles that will block them. But then you've just made your slave even less useful. Give me a human anyday. If there are any Drow slaves I think they'd be a novelty at best. Maybe a slaver in Darguun has one to show just how accomplished a slaver he is. "Yes sir all the way from Xendrik itself!"
yrogerg 06-05-07, 08:13 AM	Slavery is outlawed in the 5N isn't it? Warforged being an exception till the Treaty of Thronehold. There's indentured servitude in Karnath and Thrane though that may just be for warforged. Darguun we know does have a slave market and probably Droaam. Probably the Principalities. So not a whole lot of places to take your Drow slave. Nobody said that this would be going on legally. Note that bloodsports were also outlawed by the Treaty of Thronehold (or the Code of Galifar? I forget), but those occur on a regular basis in the belly of Sharn, the most populous city in the 5N. ...If there are any Drow slaves I think they'd be a novelty at best. Maybe a slaver in Darguun has one to show just how accomplished a slaver he is. "Yes sir all the way from Xendrik itself!" Right. But honestly, for the right "collectors", this novelty might very well be enough, ne? Personally, I could see some thoroughly Evil nobles in the nations doing this, without any real regard for the legality, as their station and influence will shield them from any troubles.
Edymnion 06-05-07, 08:35 AM	Besides, the identity of the slaver(humanoid or not) should be accounted too. I also wonder where is the market and who will be the buyers...I find it somewhat hard to imagine a thriving drow slavemarket, at least in the 5 nations, Zilargo and Mror holds. There is Darguun, I suppose, but still...Slavery is illegal in most of the real world too, but there are still slave trades going on every day. It would of course be very illegal, even in game, with the people involved claiming that the slaves are simply live in servants rescued off the streets, or some such. "Yes, the dark elf girl there? Crying shame that one was, we were exploring the ruins down south when our touring group was attacked by her people. Vicious they were, like crazed animals, even the women were fighting! They're primative little bone weapons were no match for our warforged and Cannith steel though, but the whole pack of them fought to the death like rabid wolves. Wasn't until it was all over with we found that one, just a wee babe really, over in the bushes. Her parents must have been in the group that jumped us. We couldn't very well leave such a helpless little thing all alone in the wilds of the jungle, now could we? So we brought her back with us, been living here helping out around the estate ever since." Which of course would be a crock, considering as he bought her only last month down in the cogs from Slimey Pete, but thats another story... Right. But honestly, for the right "collectors", this novelty might very well be enough, ne? Personally, I could see some thoroughly Evil nobles in the nations doing this, without any real regard for the legality, as their station and influence will shield them from any troubles.Yup! Much like the problems the real world has with art thieves and artifact looters. Doesn't matter that its illegal, there will always be a private collector that wants one just for the sake of having it. And who can't imagine the corpulant hedonist guy that has literally tried everything else on the market, and has now moved on to more exotic fair? Imagine Jabba the Hutt, only instead of slave girl Leia in the gold bikini, its a drow. Half naked to "show off those exquisit tribal markings". Yeah.
Darakhoranon 06-05-07, 11:40 AM	Right. But youŽd better remember what happened to Jabba when his newest "acquisition" felt like leaving... Seriously, though, drow slaves as "showpieces" for the (evil) nobles? Quite possible.
Kreistor2 06-05-07, 03:14 PM	Hrrmmm... Okay, I see two questions here: 1) How do you turn a Drow into a slave? Well, I suggest reviewing American history. How did the slave traders turn Africans into slaves? Without going into specifics, the answer is pain, suffering, and the removal of a support structure. With an ocean between a slave and home, the slave isn't going anywhere. 2) Who would go to Xen'drik to enslave inhabitants and bring them back to Khorvaire? Very short list of possible suspects here. Only Darguun specifically mentions slaves, and they aren't into capturing them. They kept some that were thee when the goblinoid forces turned traitor and seized the area, but the ratio of slave to goblin is tiny and shrinking. There is one enigmatic force powerful enough to want to see this happen, but you have to handwave a reason to do it. The Sisters -- the daughters of Sora Kell. That trio can justify anything, they are so loosely written. Just give Teraza a vision in which they send an expedition to seize Drow and so shall it be. What you're really after is a reason to put a Drow in Khorvaire, I think. I am more inclined to suggest something I used to create a Drow guide for my group. The Drow are written with a tribal culture. The worst possible punishment is exile from the tribe, with markings declaring the Drow exiled. Such a person would be shunned or, worse, abused by other tribes that encountered this person. The one possible escape would be to leave the continent where no one would recognize the meaning of whatever mark she bore. With no knowledge of local Khorvairen culture, you've got a high class prstitute in the making. Not too far off from what you want, Edy.
tallric_kruush 06-05-07, 04:38 PM	Considering the whole history as slaves things and how they revere those in the uprising, I don't think having a drow slave would be the greatest thing in the world. I mean they'd probably get themselves killed fighting the captors. If they win they're heroes continuing the fight for freedom. If they die they become martyrs and are revered by their decedents. I believe your thinking of those "other" elves. You know, the ones with the pale skin.:) The drow were the servants of the giants right on through most of the rebellion. They became drow because the giants magically altered them to better fit this role in the battle against their brethren (who remained pale-skinned). The "Oathbreaker" drow eventually rebelled as well, but they were despised and distrusted by the other elves and weren't accepted as allies or kin. At least that's the story according to Shen'kar. He'd know, right? He is drow.;) Maybe some drow revere the ancient elf rebels, but by no means do all of them. Some drow still fulfill their oaths to the giants 40,000 years later! (The Sulatar are one such group). A little irrelevant to the rest of the thread at this point, perhaps...
Edymnion 06-05-07, 09:02 PM	1) How do you turn a Drow into a slave?Same way you turn a human into a slave. Get it young, abuse it, make it think it's worthless, and that it's only chance at any kind of happiness in life is to do as it's told.2) Who would go to Xen'drik to enslave inhabitants and bring them back to Khorvaire?Any number of pirates, black merchants, etc.What you're really after is a reason to put a Drow in Khorvaire, I think.No, I don't. If you read the forums here a bit, you'll find out pretty quick that my view of the drow are that they are extremely xenophobic, would never willingly leave Xen'Drik, and would all around rather drop dead than be in Khovaire. What I wanted was exactly what I said. The fat rich noble with the hot drow love slave as a showpiece.
Kreistor2 06-06-07, 01:11 AM	Same way you turn a human into a slave. Get it young, abuse it, make it think it's worthless, and that it's only chance at any kind of happiness in life is to do as it's told. The young didn't survive the boat trip. Only the healthy and older slaves survived that horrible experience. And they were turned into slaves for life. So, unless you give your Drow exceptional abilities to resist torture, suffering, loneliness, loss, etc., then standard breaking techniques will work on them. It is said that no human being can resist torture forever. I don't believe there's anything in the Drow description that makes them fundamentally mentally alien in mindset from other humanoids, so they should be susceptible to the same techniques. So, yes, to answer the original question, a Drow could be broken into slavery. Any number of pirates, black merchants, etc. Would want to, but have the power to? Remember they have to go to Xen'drik, a long and dangerous voyage, take with them enough personnel to fight a tribe, and then somehow still have space on board to fit the captured slaves. The African slavers either bought the slaves from Africans, or used guns on a spear culture, thereby not requiring large numbers. Pirates won't have that advantage in Eberron, and so they need numbers which eats up space required to fit the profits. The numbers don't really work out nicely. Xen'drik isn't the kind of place a pirate would look for tradeships to capture. even to get there, he'd have to pay the Sahuagin, something pirates hate doing. There'd be no tradeships on the coast, so where's the profit? There's just nothing in Xen'drik for a pirate to go and easily steal, since the only settlement they know about is Stormreach. Black merchants have the same problem. There are no settlements to trade with. Xenophobes don't trade, so who will trade the Drow slaves to them? you'll find out pretty quick that my view of the drow are that they are extremely xenophobic I don't disagree with your drow as a society being xenophobes, but individuals in a society are not required to all have the same attitude as the culture. While the leadership of a tribe can be ultra-paranoid, the pubescent rebels may choose to make that dangerous, high risk human contact just to prove their rebellious nature and bravado. "Desperate situations call for desperate measures." That's true regardless of culture. The basic needs of hunger, thirst, and companionship will eventually overcome xenophobia for an individual. Exile means xenophobia is no longer an option.
Edymnion 06-06-07, 08:27 AM	The young didn't survive the boat trip. Only the healthy and older slaves survived that horrible experience. And they were turned into slaves for life.I'm not talking about real life, I'm talking about Eberron. We're not taking a 6 month boat ride across an ocean, more like a 6 day boat ride. Thats not a problem. So, unless you give your Drow exceptional abilities to resist torture, suffering, loneliness, loss, etc., then standard breaking techniques will work on them.Like boosted charisma, spell resistance, and a number of SLA? The drow are much more... resiliant... than your average human. Would want to, but have the power to? Remember they have to go to Xen'drik, a long and dangerous voyage, take with them enough personnel to fight a tribe, and then somehow still have space on board to fit the captured slaves. The African slavers either bought the slaves from Africans, or used guns on a spear culture, thereby not requiring large numbers. Pirates won't have that advantage in Eberron, and so they need numbers which eats up space required to fit the profits. The numbers don't really work out nicely. Xen'drik isn't the kind of place a pirate would look for tradeships to capture. even to get there, he'd have to pay the Sahuagin, something pirates hate doing. There'd be no tradeships on the coast, so where's the profit? There's just nothing in Xen'drik for a pirate to go and easily steal, since the only settlement they know about is Stormreach. Black merchants have the same problem. There are no settlements to trade with. Xenophobes don't trade, so who will trade the Drow slaves to them?Actually, a single individual doesn't have to go through the entire trip. Stormholm is an established black market/pirate community, outside the laws of Galifar and the Five Nations. Its already the Mos Eisly of Eberron. Sailing and airships already make regular passage to and from Xen'Drik on an almost daily schedual. Sending stones let people in Khovaire easily communicate with people in Stormholm. It honestly is nothing more than finding a shady captain that already does cargo runs to Xen'Drik to accept some slighly more "exotic" cargo, contacting a group in Stormholm to capture the drow, and setting up a seller in Sharn. You don't do all the work yourself, not when there is an established route available. "Desperate situations call for desperate measures." That's true regardless of culture. The basic needs of hunger, thirst, and companionship will eventually overcome xenophobia for an individual. Exile means xenophobia is no longer an option.I don't want to make this real world political, but I know an old man with a number tattoo'ed on his arm that would dissagree with that.
Cifer 06-06-07, 08:55 AM	Right. But youŽd better remember what happened to Jabba when his newest "acquisition" felt like leaving... I'd say she had the PC bonus...
Darakhoranon 06-06-07, 09:29 AM	Maybe, but then the whole question of "how get the hot drow slave there" is kind of moot, isnŽt it? We either have an ultimately meaningless "showpiece" for the unscrupulous fat merchant with money and power (which means he can and probably will get almost anything he wants), in which case the details of how the drow got there arenŽt really that important, or we have some kind of plot hook (in a rather appealing and scantily clad from...), which means the drow does get a "PC bonus"... However, as along as drow slaves are a rarity, you can easily justify them being "just picked up while his... associates... were doing... archaeological field work". If you want to introduce a SMALL number of exotic beings, exotic circumstances that brought them to where theyŽre now are certainly acceptable. Especially in a world like Eberron where magic is a part of life.
Kreistor2 06-06-07, 12:04 PM	Like boosted charisma, spell resistance, and a number of SLA? The drow are much more... resiliant... than your average human. And weakened Con. Endurance is Con related, not mental related. Spell resistance does nothing against non-magic. Charisma is also not a defensive stat. Wisdom is the defensive mental stat. Real world has demonstrated that no human can rsist torture forever, and that would include all Charisma values up to 18. Some Drow have Charisma 19 or 20, but the average Drow is lower Cha than an exceptional human. If an exceptional human can't resist, the average Drow can't either. It honestly is nothing more than finding a shady captain that already does cargo runs to Xen'Drik to accept some slighly more "exotic" cargo, contacting a group in Stormholm to capture the drow, and setting up a seller in Sharn. To where do they make their runs? That's what I'm trying to establish. You've declared the Drow to be xenophobes. Xenophobes don't trade. So who exactly are these Black Merchants trading with? Giants? Monstrous humanoids? Please, establish who are teh pirates and merchants capable of trading with that are powerful enough to capture a Drow tribe? I have no problem with them coming, if they've established trade, but you're not saying who outside of Stormreach they could trade with. "Established trade routes" for all I know all go through Stormreach, making it legal trade, not black market. Perhaps your Stormreach trades in slaves, but I don't think that's automatically true. I don't want to make this real world political, but I know an old man with a number tattoo'ed on his arm that would dissagree with that. Disagree with which part? That desperate times call for desperate measures? You might want to review what people did in those camps in order to survive. Look, Edy, you asked for ideas and I'm trying to help. If you don't want it, don't ask for it. You're throwing up every single road block you can conceive of. I don't want to debate, I want to help you achieve your goal.
Edymnion 06-06-07, 12:55 PM	And weakened Con. Endurance is Con related, not mental related. Spell resistance does nothing against non-magic. Charisma is also not a defensive stat. Wisdom is the defensive mental stat. Real world has demonstrated that no human can rsist torture forever, and that would include all Charisma values up to 18. Some Drow have Charisma 19 or 20, but the average Drow is lower Cha than an exceptional human. If an exceptional human can't resist, the average Drow can't either.Yes, but unlike a human, a drow is more capable of attacking it's captors. You take an adult drow, odds are they are going to be suicidal in their attempts to escape, believing it better to die in battle than to live as a slave to the foreigners. And given how many of them would likely have Improved Unarmed Strike, you would have to keep them completely restrained, and likely have a way to counter their darkness ability to stand a chance at breaking them. To where do they make their runs? That's what I'm trying to establish. You've declared the Drow to be xenophobes. Xenophobes don't trade. So who exactly are these Black Merchants trading with? Giants? Monstrous humanoids? Please, establish who are teh pirates and merchants capable of trading with that are powerful enough to capture a Drow tribe?Who said anything about entire tribes? We know for a fact that drow will attack outsiders they catch looting the xen'drik ruins. You get into their territory, the drow come to you. That would be one source of potential slaves, although they would be the hardest to break of them all. And given that the drow are fractured, there's no reason to say there wouldn't be some groups of a dozen or less individuals. A well prepared raiding party that came across such a group wouldn't have much trouble. With the relatively easy to come by magic items in Eberron, equipping a dedicated hunting party with Merciful weapons would be simple enough. Spring a surprise attack with a bunch of Merciful crossbows, mow down as many as you can, and have some blindfight warforged there to mop up the rest. I have no problem with them coming, if they've established trade, but you're not saying who outside of Stormreach they could trade with. "Established trade routes" for all I know all go through Stormreach, making it legal trade, not black market. Perhaps your Stormreach trades in slaves, but I don't think that's automatically true.You don't need established trade routes. You can establish your own black market trade route with the right people and enough gold. Look, Edy, you asked for ideas and I'm trying to help. If you don't want it, don't ask for it. You're throwing up every single road block you can conceive of. I don't want to debate, I want to help you achieve your goal.See, I don't want to debate either, but you are not helping. You've been basically saying "If you could do it, it would be just like any other slave trade, but since there isn't anybody that could do it in the first place, it can't be done." The "can it be done" (in reguards to having the slave trade set up) part isn't what I want help on. I've got that part covered to my satisfaction. Its not even entirely a slave trade, it could just as easily be an honest to goodness exotic animal hunter that stocks zoos and the like in Khovaire, who just so happens to take a few natives along with him from time to time. What I was asking for input on was the difficulties of breaking a drow once you got one, and possibly more efficient and reliable ways of catching them in the first place. And while "torture it until it gives up" is a legitimate responce, it isn't much help as its little more than hand waving. Might as well just say "you just do it".
RogueElement 06-06-07, 08:07 PM	If I was a slaver, I would think that Drow would make terrible slaves. They're physically frail (-2 con), willful (+2 chr), and have all kinds of inborn magical tricks to torment their captors. Plus Drow tribes are organized, well-trained, paranoid, sneaky, and vicious, so I would expect heavy losses while trying to capture them. And as far as I can remember, Drow have a low birth rate too, so there's little chance I can increase my stock. Now if I were a Xendrik slaver, I would say that giants would make fantastic slaves. Strong, tough, stupid, and good breeders. Furthermore, people would pay big money just to see a giant...and an "exotic giant from savage xendrik" would gather an even bigger crowd.
yrogerg 06-06-07, 10:26 PM	Personally, I don't really picture any sort of formalized trade akin to the RL Transatlantic slave trade. If I use this idea in my Eberron, it would most likely be due to a handful of looters who, in the process of despoiling Xen'drik, who don't bat an eye at snatching a drow youth and selling them off back in Sharn. Such characters would, much as Xen'drik-exploring PCs, would bill themselves primarily as "scholar-explorers", but in this case, would be concerned with little more than plundering the continent. Such characters might make interesting foils for good-aligned PCs, akin to some of the antagonists from the Indiana Jones movies. While the PCs would be prone to some degree of scruples, these characters would consider nothing off-limits: not only massacres of natives, kidnapping, and slave trade, but also similarly atrocious acts: assassination and sabotage of other explorers, taking commissions from villainous groups such as the Order of the Emerald Claw, and so forth. One consequence of this is that I don't see it all that likely that these looters are looking for "good" slaves; IMO, they would just be capturing targets of opportunity: the child that survives after an entire tribe is wiped out, the sole survivor of a raiding party that's slain to the last man... that sort of thing. On the demand end, after all, the spoiled nobility of the Nations don't care all that much about how *useful* such a slave would be, only how *interesting*.
Sarlax 06-07-07, 01:05 AM	Personally, I don't really picture any sort of formalized trade akin to the RL Transatlantic slave trade. Definitely not. That slave trade sprung into existence because there was little native labor, indentured servants were getting more expensive, and the price of ocean travel was falling. Now, why would you go to Xen'drik to get slaves en masse when commoners make 1 SP a day? There's cheap labor all over the continent. There's also no industry in Eberron like that of the Americas that necessitated mass slavery. Annway: the best way to control a drow slave? Intimidation. Nothing about drow, especially in youth, makes them less easily frightened than humans. Take them to a scary new place with no means of getting home, shine bright lights in their eyes. Their spell-like abilities are useless - oh, I can outline invisible creatures! - for resisting control. Give drugs a shot. Drow will easily become addicted to various illicit substances. Keep them scared and doped and they're all yours.
Sarlax 06-07-07, 01:18 AM	Ah, and if all you really want is a trophy slave, use Bestow Curse. Even with SR and +2, you won't have to work long to make the drow fail its save. Use the first application to give the slave a -6 to Wisdom, then -6 to Intelligence, then Charisma. Top it off with -4 to d20 rolls.
Kreistor2 06-07-07, 02:47 AM	Yes, but unlike a human, a drow is more capable of attacking it's captors. Shackles are shackles. They've got a pretty high DC. Are your Drow trained in Pick Lock, when they probably never see a real lock in their entire lives? You take an adult drow, odds are they are going to be suicidal in their attempts to escape, believing it better to die in battle than to live as a slave to the foreigners. Sigh... cut off a foot. I really didn't want to say that. You can't run, climb, or jump on a stump. Use Regeneration later to grow it back. Or a Graft. And given how many of them would likely have Improved Unarmed Strike That's out of the blue. Are you giving Drow extra levels over humans? Humans get that extra feat at L1. With more feats to play with, wouldn't humans of equivalent level have a higher likelihood of having IUS? What are you doing here -- giving the Drow a higher chance of PC classes and so making more of them monks or something? Drow are a tool using culture with their own unique weapon set that doesn't lend itself to monk training. I don't really see a reason for Drow to have Unarmed Strike more than WF(Longknife). you would have to keep them completely restrained, and likely have a way to counter their darkness ability to stand a chance at breaking them. You restrain them until they are broken, yes. Slaves earn privileges like having their restraints removed for good behavior, and talented slavers have enough Sense Motive to recognize a Bluff by anyone not trained to it. They know the signs of a broken slave, which those that have never seen it don't. Basically, a new slave can't really fake being broken unless they've seen a broken slave, so they aren't going to have much hope of pulling a fast one on their slavers. The slavers, in the end, have experience with this kind of work: the Drow do not have experience in resisting being slaves. What I was asking for input on was the difficulties of breaking a drow once you got one, and possibly more efficient and reliable ways of catching them in the first place. And while "torture it until it gives up" is a legitimate responce, it isn't much help as its little more than hand waving. Might as well just say "you just do it". Edy, you've given the Drow a bunch of qualities related to xenophobia that are not inherent in xenophobia. Nothing about that kind of culture demands resistance to torture. If you've got some psych book that tells you that xenophobes get that sort of thing, great, show me. The problem here is that you're conferring a bunch of qualities on the Drow that are not mechanically present, and then expecting me to have given them the same qualities based solely on a cultural reference. I can't overcome the resistances you give the Drow unless you tell me what those resistances are. Xenophobia, to me, is not inherently resistance to torture. It doesn't make you suicidal, and it doesn't confer extra ability to resist pain. The SAS practice and condition their soldiers for hardship and pain, in order to resist torture. Six days -- it's considered exceptional to hold out for six days. Not years, months, or weeks. Days. And these are men trained to resist by being put through torturous situations. Perhaps your Drow are trained for it, but I'd find that surprising: you don't train for something you don't expect to face, and I don't think your Drow would face torture as a normal consequence of fighting Giants and Elves, which to me seems far more like a three way genocidal conflict. If men with real training can only hold out days, really, what good is a culture of xenophobia going to do? You've been basically saying "If you could do it, it would be just like any other slave trade, but since there isn't anybody that could do it in the first place, it can't be done." You have a tendency to misquote me when you say things like that. I didn't say it can't be done. I said it doesn't seem to me that anyone would want to do it. A market needs two things -- supply and demand. Where is the demand for Drow slaves? Who could afford the extraordinary cost such a slave would demand? And where is the supply? I can generate that supply easily in my Eberron, since I have fewer restrictions than you. I have asked before who your traders trade with, but you dodged that question. I can name mine -- I include many monstrous and aberrant races in Xen'drik. All of them would have no problems trading with the Elves of Aerenal, since they are natural allies in the fight for survival against the Drow. Voila, there I have a trade route that can result in Drow slaves making their way to Khorvaire via Aerenal: all I need is a shady elf pirate captain, and he doesn't need to be real Aereni. (it wouldn't happen in my Eberron for Demand reasons, which are irrelevant to this conversation.) Look, Edy, you're the one that excludes by default. I can name twenty races (and sub-races) in my Xen'drik for Black Marketers to establish routes to, but I doubt you'd include any of them, either excluding them from the world or by placing them on a different continent in order to keep Xen'drik pristine. That's why I was asking you "Who". You don't include what I do, so for me to help you, I need to know who you are making available for me to work with. You don't want that, so fine, I'll drop it. But I was asking it because I was trying to understand what you're restricting me to work with.
Edymnion 06-07-07, 08:21 AM	Fine, forget I said anything. I'll work the details out on my own.
davethebrave371 06-07-07, 10:41 AM	Edy, you've given the Drow a bunch of qualities related to xenophobia that are not inherent in xenophobia. Nothing about that kind of culture demands resistance to torture. Actually, to my understanding, Edy was saying that they wouldn't get to the torture/breaking stage due to their disregard for their own life, given the cultural background drow have. SoX seems to indicate that the vast majority of Vulkoor worshipping drow (which seem to be the vast majority in and of themselves) despise the Sulatar for still being loyal to the giants of ages past, even symbolically. I think the drow feel some sort of guilt about their willing assassinations and military service against the rebelling elves, to some extent, and want to prove themselves better. If an opportunity like slavers attempting to force them into slavery came, I think they'd leap at the chance to prove that they too can rebel against slavery or die trying, since the last time they got that chance they didn't join up with the rebels. Unless the tribe literally has no memory or connection with its past, even in the way of vague legends about being enslaved to the giant civilizations of the past (which, honestly, I find hard to believe considering how often a tribe would wander past a ginormous ruin and/or encounter a tribe of giants), I think Edy is right. They'd fight until they died. Manowar style.
Lord_Zzyzx 06-07-07, 01:23 PM	What I wanted was exactly what I said. The fat rich noble with the hot drow love slave as a showpiece. Have you considered the Oompa Loompa angle. Hey Generic Tribe o' Drow! Crappy place you got here. Long has your suffering been. Say I got a nice factory for you to live in. Wink Wink Nudge Nudge. Now I know you are going to say high Cha, strong culture, etc., etc. But if the tribes are as many and varied as suggested in this thread one of them has got to be sick of living in the sticks. Plus, I imagine the "Fat rich noble" has enough money to buy a high Cha modifier to overcome their objections. Isn't that how it works in the real world?
Darakhoranon 06-07-07, 05:19 PM	Might be possible - but then meŽd probably get to the "drow are extremely xenophobic"-part again... However, your suggestion is certainly an option, Lord_Zzyzx. If I didnŽt misunderstand Edymnion, heŽs looking for a way to explain A FEW drow "showpieces". I think it is quite possible to break drow - they may (MAY!) be more resistant to breaking than your average, say, goblin, but "more resistant" does NOT equal "immune"...
Kreistor2 06-07-07, 05:36 PM	Dave, as Edy suggested, there are ways to defeat enemies without killing them. Saps are the easiest. All it takes is one sap hit to provide the chance for lethal damage to put an enemy in a state of unconsciousness. You don't need all the damage to be nonlethal, just some. Monks are another good choice. Anything that entangles, like Tanglefoot bags and nets, also result in captures. A Drow can be as suicidal as he wants, but when in combat, you don't get to choose whether your enemy uses lethal or nonlethal weapons. Many slaves were suicidal when first captured. Part of the process is to remove that from them and convince them there is a reason to live. It's the basic grief process -- eventually you get to acceptance. Anyway, to get them to that point, you have to put them through various stages of training, and preventing attempts at suicide is part of the slaver's trade. Once captured, it is remarkably hard to kill yourself, if your captors have had slaves that have tried in the past. After that, it's just a matter of the enslaved individual eventually coming to the realization that life is better than death. After weeks of being forced into contact with other races, xenophobia can't stand up as an excuse for suicide. The will to live is, ultimately, the predominant quality of any reasonable living creature.
The Dreaming Duck 06-08-07, 02:56 AM	As a random point to start things off, Xu'sasar from The Gates of Night is actually eager to die; according to her beliefs, a noble death does seem to be better than an ignoble life. Now, I'm not saying that it's not possible to break people of their beliefs by any means. However, I agree with DavetheBrave that the drow are very different from normal cultures. They do appear to have fanatical beliefs relating to the history of their people. Beyond this, are they trained to resist torture? Not specifically, I'm sure. However, from what we've seen, their lives are a constant struggle for survival. They live in an extremely harsh environment in which combat is a way of life. They may not be trained for psychological torture, but they'll certainly have more experience with pain than the typical human would. Again, looking to Xu, I do see the sort of person who would saw her own foot off to get out of manacles and crawl away if that's what it takes. She might die in the process - but again, from what we've seen of her, she's got that "Death is the key to paradise" thing drilled into her head very firmly. Next to that, however, is the question of how hard it is to capture drow, and whether they make the best slaves in the first place. Looking to the "typical drow clan" in SoX, we see a number of 2nd-level rangers, twice as many 2nd-level rangers/2nd-level fighters, a 7th-level sorcerer, a pair of 6th-level ranger/3rd level fighters, and a freaking fighter 8/ranger 5. As I said, combat's a part of daily life, and they live in a land of horrors most people in the Five Nations can't begin to imagine unless they've been to the Mournland. If you're looking for a few easy picking slaves for domestic duties, do you really want to challenge the 13th-level drow, his two 9th-level buddies, and the 7th-level sorcerer to get them? Are you really ever going to feel safe around that 13th-level drow? And if you really feel you can utterly break the fanatical beliefs a 13th-level character has held for over a hundred years and which his people have held for 30,000 years in a week with enough strength to KEEP him under your thumb for years to come, can you use these techniques on PCs? Is there some sort of skill associated with it? I'm NOT saying it's impossible. Anything's possible. But is it worth it? Especially when you add it the number of rangers and rogues they've got (again, going by SoX), their familiarity with the terrain, and the difficulty that the Curse of the Traveler will play with locating territory and maintaining a supply line? Unless you're LOOKING for rangers and fighters, seems to me you're infinitely better off enslaving kobolds in Zilargo. With that said, this doesn't help the original question of "How COULD you get a hot drow love slave." Personally, I'd follow the example of Gerrion - deal with an exile. They find their way to Stormreach, greedy merchant takes them in, gets them hooked on dreamlily or what have you, and takes it from there. You're not dealing with an entire tribe. You're notslamming the person into manacles right from the start and triggering any of that lingering cultural anti-slave horror (which is presumably already weakened by the fact that they've been driven from their tribe) - you're offering shelter in a cruel and hostile world, and then taking advantage of them. This wouldn't form the basis for an entire drow slave trade - but it would be enough to get you a few slaves, and to keep them as exotic and unusual. And, of course, there's the other far simpler answer. What's the easiest way to get a drow love slave? Get a changeling love slave. That way you're getting a human love slave, elf love slave, shifter love slave, etc. in the bargain.
Kreistor2 06-08-07, 10:13 AM	DD, I agree with you for the most part. Cutting off your foot, though, only gets you out of the manacles, and requires weeks to heal, preventing your fast escape, so it wouldn't be a path to take without extraordinary circumstances. The Drow as high level enemies is definitely a problem for the pirates, raising costs and risk. Whoever wants the Drow slaves would have to be paying large for them, which is part of why I said my Eberron has no market for such creatures, even though I do have competition for them that can capture them. (Repeated visits to Xen'drik always slamming into xenophobic Drow savages gets old pretty quick. Variety is the spice of gaming.) A "love slave" doesn't literally have to be a true slave. It can simply be someone that has no choice in her position. Someone that is there partially willingly makes more sense that a broken slave of the classic model.
Edymnion 06-08-07, 12:03 PM	DD, I agree with you for the most part. Cutting off your foot, though, only gets you out of the manacles, and requires weeks to heal, preventing your fast escape, so it wouldn't be a path to take without extraordinary circumstances.Ever see Saw? ;)
Kreistor2 06-08-07, 01:13 PM	Nope. Not into horror flicks.