Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rauric 03-15-08, 07:53 AM	Someone mentioned that we should make Eladrin beings from the Fey Realm. Elves are the ancestors that were stole by the giants from that plane and they adapted to Prime life. I think this is a better way of explainging the new race then sayinf "See these elves over here? They are eladrin and always have been. See those other elves? They are normal elves."
Cyber-Dave 03-15-08, 11:56 PM	I think you meant to say that Eladrin are from the fay realms, and that Giants captures and enslaved some of these Eladrin, who were mutated into elves (by Giant magics and time). But yes, keeping Eladrin as creatures from the fairy court, and elves as elves, is my hope for the inclusion of Eladrin as well. It involves the least amount of ret-con.
KidSixXx 03-16-08, 07:03 AM	It'll work the same way as the Drow do in 3.5. The Eladrin can just be a type of "elf" created by the giants to serve a specific purpose. If it's not official, then I'll just use the Eladrin to serve as the base race for the Aerenal and the Elves will be the Valenar.
Telagaunt 03-17-08, 12:12 AM	Excuse my ignorance :( but are Eldarin like leShay? Granted the leShay is a generic D&D race, but they are 'ancestors' to an extent of elves.
Arcane Guyver 03-17-08, 01:37 AM	To sum up: in 4e, elves have been cut into two parts. Eladrin are basically high elves, but are also fey and have the 'feystep' ability that lets them teleport short distances mid-battle. What are now known as elves are what we know as wood elves, the experts at hunting and traveling in the wilderness. Drow are also fey, and all three races come from the fey plane, by core fluff. My original idea was that the giants used planar magic to rip all three races out of Thelanis to become their slaves. The elves adapted, and ceased to be truly fey in nature. The eladrin never quite adapted, but over the generations ceased to be native to Thelanis; so conflicted, they turned towards the idea that time and death are foes to overcome. Finally, the drow refused to adapt, but weren't as closely tied to Thelanis as the eladrin, so they handled the new norm of their existence well (and tales of their homeland were eventually twisted into their current, rather animistic religious beliefs). The slightly different idea that elves are eladrin that were brought to Eberron by the giants is a good one. However, I'm not sure where true eladrin would fit into things with that setup (another 800 Ib gorilla on the magnitude of dragonborn). Who knows? Perhaps the Eberron cosmology might not change whatsoever, and in the 4ECS it'll state that the eladrin's feystep ability is actually them moving along the shadow plane for short jaunts.
Cyber-Dave 03-17-08, 02:34 AM	Honestly, the three new core races are VERY easy to work int Eberron's cosmology without any retconing. For example: On page 99 of the 3.5 Eberron core rulebook it states that, yup, you got it, Eladrin are native to the plane of Thelanis. Moreover, Thelanis is described in almost the EXACT SAME WORDS as the feywild. So, you make Elves the decedents of Eladrin that the Giants enslaved. You leave Eladrin as natives of Thelanis. Some Eladrin choose to spend most of their time on the prime material plane. As for the fey-step, why the shadow plane? It would be Thelanis. Just like feystep is a step through the feywild, in Eberron, fey-step would be a step through Thelanis. Dragonborn are easily described as the Dragon's next step of privacy insurance after the Seren raiders. Basically, a race they bred by mixing their own blood with Seren blood. Like the Seren, these Dragonborn would worship the Dragons, and pretty much help keep outsiders from entering too deep into Aargonessen (spelling?). Tieflings would make a lot of sense as people in the Demon Wastes. The Human in the Demon Wastes are decedents of a culture very similar to the one described as creation tieflings in the 4e player handbook tiefling lore (anyone remember the name?), and a number of those tribes still worship the demons bound deep under Eberron in Khybber. There you go, the three races put into Eberron, and Eberron remains virtually unchanged.
skrap-san 03-17-08, 03:22 AM	I agree with you Cyber-Dave but one thing needs to be pointed out. There is the question, why would the dragonborn leave their land of birth?
Arcane Guyver 03-17-08, 04:44 AM	the 3.5 Eberron core rulebook it states that, yup, you got it, Eladrin are native to the plane of Thelanis. Well, firstly, those Planescape eladrin are a far cry from 4e eladrin. Secondly, you might as well toss most of the 'planar inhabitants' knowledge out the window, as many creatures are being completely rebuilt (see 4e angels) and others are being tossed. We didn't get much info about the planes, much less their planar inhabitants, so I wouldn't put too much stock in this section of the 3e ECS, which more or less was just used as the dumping point for many creatures in the 3e MM. Moreover, Thelanis is described in almost the EXACT SAME WORDS as the feywild. Sure. However, the core rules also are treating the feywild as a transitive plane, similar to the plane of shadow and effectively replacing the ethereal plane. It might sound easy to swap out the ethereal plane for Thelanis, but only if another plane replaces it in the cosmology. You know, 12 planes for 12 moons and all that. Of course, they could just eliminate the recurring '13 becoming 12' theme in Eberron. I think that'd be kind of sad.
Cyber-Dave 03-17-08, 12:25 PM	I agree with you Cyber-Dave but one thing needs to be pointed out. There is the question, why would the dragonborn leave their land of birth? The occasional random who is curious about the world. Pretty much the same reason the occasional player can choose to play a Seren raider, with feats such as dragon totem or dragon rage no less. Of course, they are going to remain a vast minority and oddity to the rest of world, probably only popping up occasionally in such cosmopolitan regions as Sharn or Stormreach, but thats kind of the idea... as little retcon as possible. Arcane Guyver: You are making it overcomplicated for yourself. Leave the planes as described in the 3e setting book, and repopulate the plane with similar 4e planer creatures from the 4e MM. Likewise, the 3e Eladrin might not be the 4e eladrin, but they had so little real contact with the 3e setting that it makes no difference. The plane is already so similar to the 4e description of the feywild, and the Eladrin already a native of the faywild, that it is exceedingly simple to just swap the 3e Eladrin for the 4e Eladrin in your setting. If you need a more powerful fey creature in one of your games, just use a leveled up Eladrin, or make it a cousin of the Eladrin which also comes from Thelanis. Eberron already re-imagined where some of the 3.5 monsters come from (plane wise)... look at Xoriat! Mindflayers used to be from the depths of the prime material plane. So like I said, keep the same cosmology, and repopulate it with equivalent or similar 4e creatures.
Arcane Guyver 03-17-08, 07:16 PM	But the core cosmology is not the same as the Eberron cosmology. Not at all. Core: There's the Material plane, with Shadow, Fey, and Elemental/Abyss planes being used as transitive planes. Surrounding these is the Astral plane, with lots of little demiplanes strewn throughout it. Eberron: We've got a Material plane, with Shadow and Ethereal planes for transitives. Surrounding these is the Astral plane, in which twelve other planes of existence orbit in sync with the moons, one of which is Thelanis. I'm willing to bet there'll be a push to eliminate the Ethereal plane from Eberron with 4e, but simply replacing it with Thelanis is easier said than done without fundamentally changing the planar setup. Which seems easier to you - altering Eberron's cosmology to fit one specific race, or altering one race's fluff (which Eberron already does with most of the other races...) to fit into the setting?
skrap-san 03-17-08, 07:28 PM	It strikes me as interesting that no mather what explanation we get for the different races, most of us are going to feel it was "a bit wrong" but we will have a hard time finding a better solution. Well it was just a thought, do carry on with the discussion :cheer:
Cyber-Dave 03-17-08, 09:17 PM	You are really, really, really, really missing my point. I have made it clear what I want. I want to alter one race's fluff (which Eberron already does with most of the other races...) to fit into the setting. I want to alter that races fluff to have that race be a native of Thelanis, because its core fluff already has it coming from a place VERY similar to Thelanis, in fact almost spot on identical according to description. I mean that its geography matches. Its the home of the fey. It is filled with tall ruins and spires. It is overflowing with flora and fauna. It has a creature, inside it, called Eladrin. I'm saying erase everything but the name of 3.5 Eladrin, which never really had a major effect on 3.5 edition Eberron anyway, and replace it with 4e Eldarin. The fact that the cosmologies are not the same, not at all, makes no difference. You ignore that, because this isn't the cosmology of the core handbook. Its the cosmology of Eberron. Then, PC Eladrin, will be Eladrin stuck here on the prime material plane. Perhaps Eladrin, or the decedents of, who wandered off into the prime material plane the last time these two planes were co-terminus. Fey-step, its a neat little power these Eladrin have... its there ability to step back into their plane momentarily, but not for more then a fraction of a second before they end up back here. Or, if it makes you feel better, it can be a step into the realm of shadow or the ethereal realm. It makes no real difference. It doesn't really change the fluff behind any of what I have described above. So, one more time, I'm not saying "swap the Ethereal plane for Thelanis". I am saying "replace 3rd edition Eladrin with 4e Eladrin, and bang: a place for 4e Eladrin in Eberron." But the core cosmology is not the same as the Eberron cosmology. Not at all. Core: There's the Material plane, with Shadow, Fey, and Elemental/Abyss planes being used as transitive planes. Surrounding these is the Astral plane, with lots of little demiplanes strewn throughout it. Eberron: We've got a Material plane, with Shadow and Ethereal planes for transitives. Surrounding these is the Astral plane, in which twelve other planes of existence orbit in sync with the moons, one of which is Thelanis. I'm willing to bet there'll be a push to eliminate the Ethereal plane from Eberron with 4e, but simply replacing it with Thelanis is easier said than done without fundamentally changing the planar setup. Which seems easier to you - altering Eberron's cosmology to fit one specific race, or altering one race's fluff (which Eberron already does with most of the other races...) to fit into the setting?
Kreistor2 03-17-08, 11:05 PM	You can do that, Cyber-Dave, but I expect one of the design goals will be for all PHB races to have a significant presence in Khorvaire, like the 3.x races have in the original Eberron. I highly expect the Eladrin to become the Aereni and the Elves become the Valenar, as others have suggested.
Cyber-Dave 03-17-08, 11:39 PM	I originally thought that too, but I have read some very good arguments against it, and I am swayed. I also think it goes against the "no sub-races" concept of Eberron. Also (and Kieth can correct me if I am wrong) but I believe I read something from Keith somewhere which stated that just because the new races have to have a role in Eberron does not mean that they have to be common. Many of them are more then likely to fill a role similar to the changeling in that they are very rare and thus rarely encountered. Of course, this does not mean that they won't have a meaningful role. Being the parent race of the elves (before their enslavement to the giants) is pretty huge. They are likely to get quite a lot of respect from Aereni elves! Likewise, being a combination of human blood with a bit of draconic elements, and being among the upper echelons of the Seren community, is a very meaningful role in the game. These people won't be common to run into in Khorvair, and thus won't require that a large amount of retconing be put into the setting, but they are still very meaningful roles. So is living in a tribe, off in the demon wastes, that has been transformed into some sort of demonic human due to its worship of a powerful demon bound in Khyber. I'm not saying that I want these specific choices to be the ones chosen (though I would be happy if they were), but they are the SORT of choices I want to be used. Anyways, thats my 2 cents. I'll be sort of disappointed if they go the Aereni/Valenar Eladrin/Elf split as well. It really seems like a cop-out to me.
Arcane Guyver 03-18-08, 01:28 AM	The problem with Eladrin in Eberron is centered specifically on the planes, though. One of the Eladrin's fundamental abilities, the feystep, is them popping into a transitive plane temporarily. Even if they used eladrin exactly the same way they did in 3e (that is to say, not at all), how do you explain this unparalleled capacity for planar hopping without manifest zones? I'm don't even care about the "are these guys Aereni or just some extraplanar race that hasn't really done anything of importance in Khorvairian history." This is more about finding a place for them where the mechanics fit the world. Feystep is the sole problem here.
Cyber-Dave 03-18-08, 02:01 AM	No, its really not. Feystep is a product of the Eladrin's magical nature and connection to Thelanis. In Eberron, mages already had the ability to planehop. Whats more, the feystep ability has a direct correlation to some of the abilities found in other planer creatures. Githzerai are inhabitants of Kythri, the Churning Chaos. Githzerai have the ability plane shift. Thats right, they can hope from plane to plane as a racial ability. There is no difference between this and feystep, except that feystep can be done more often, and cannot be used to permanently jump to another plane. The nature of this ability is more elastic, and snaps the Eladrin back into the plane from which it was used after a few seconds/fractions of a second. Simply remove "transitive plane" from the fluff description of the ability, and say something like "Eldarin who make their home on the Prime Material Plane retain a connection to Thelanis that allows them to exist in a sort of planer inbetween." Think of them as a minor magnet that makes the space they occupy coterminus with Thelanis even when the plan is not coterminous with the Prime Material Plane. Prehaps you can even add some neat fluff that states that when Thelanis is remote they either lose this ability, or cannot travel quite as far with it. Perhaps when Thelanis is coterminus they can even walk between Thelanis and The Prime Material Plane at will (which would explain why some of them get left behind as it moves away from its coterminus phase). The metaphysics of magic are exceedingly simple to explain away with a handwave. They require little more than language, and imagination... sort of like D&D itself.
Arcane Guyver 03-18-08, 03:00 AM	Githzerai have the ability plane shift. Yup, a 1/day ability accessible at 9th level. Eladrin do their thing as a 1/encounter ability at 1st level. Prehaps you can even add some neat fluff that states that when Thelanis is remote they either lose this ability, or cannot travel quite as far with it. Yeah...I don't see that going over well...
Cyber-Dave 03-18-08, 03:31 AM	Yup, a 1/day ability accessible at 9th level. Eladrin do their thing as a 1/encounter ability at 1st level. This makes no difference. The fact that the Githzerai have it acts as a precedent for this sort of ability. The number of times per day is inconsequential. Balance is balance. The Githzerai can only do it once per day at nine level because the spell can actually be used to travel. The Eladrin can do it once per encounter, because the ability cannot be used to travel to another plane. After a few fractions of a second, it snaps you back to the plane from which it was used. Either way, the metaphysical description for why the ability works still stands. Honestly, you have no real basis to argue that such an ability is illogical anymore... if other races can do this sort of thing, why can't the Eladrin as well (in a balanced manner)? Saying that it isn't balanced does not work either, because if the mechanic are balanced with the core cosmology from the 4e book, its balanced with the description I gave it for the Eberron cosmology. Balance is not a factor of fluff or cosmology, but mechanic, and I am not saying the mechanic should be changed. Yeah...I don't see that going over well... *shrug* I'm not saying something like this has to be implemented. Honestly, Thelanis is coterminous or remote every few hundreds of years, so I really don't see it being a big issue. A GM should just avoid having the plane become remote or coterminous during a game in which a player is playing an Eladrin... unless a GM wants to impose a penalty/benefit for some story/plot reason an a given player. Again, I'm not saying such an effect has to be implemented. The fluff could simply say that this ability is "easier" or "harder" to use depending on whether a the plane is coterminous or not, and not implement any mechanical differences at all. I'm just saying, Eberron's cosmology does not make it difficult to implement Eladrin. Either way, whatever Kieth does, I'm sure it will be neat. I'm just saying, people do not have to worry about how the new races will be implemented. Its quite easy to do without causing any major changes to the setting. I've already given three interesting ways to implement each of the three races without any major changes to the setting, and none of them requires a retcon (like Aerenal elves are Eladrin, Valenar are elves). I'm sure anything Kieth comes out with will be at least as equally interesting, and most likely a good deal more so. He's proven to be an amazing setting developer.
Arcane Guyver 03-18-08, 03:15 PM	This makes no difference. The fact that the Githzerai have it acts as a precedent for this sort of ability. The difference is that in order for a gith to use this ability, they have to be extraordinary, one of the rare few that make it past 5th level. This ability will not effect their culture. At that point, casters can use the same spell. Any eladrin, on the other hand, can teleport short distances, much like humans with the Mark of Passage (only they jaunt through the Shadow plane, IIRC). Every eladrin has this ability, as opposed to the extraordinarily rare mid-level githzerai. It should have an effect on how economies work and their day-to-day life. Do they even have doors to their houses, since they're all Jumpers? How do they and House Orien interact/compete?
Cyber-Dave 03-18-08, 07:03 PM	None of the questions you just asked have to do with an explanation of where they come from. I thought me and you were arguing about a logical explanation about where they come from, and I said that should be very easy to figure out. I've already come up with a very plausible explanation/idea. That means that Kieth will definitely be able to do the same. Turns out you were talking more about the economic effect of them in Eberron's world... so let me please shift gears. I don't have official answers for you, obviously. If you want some ideas about what to do with your setting until 4e Eberron comes out, this is my plan: Do they even have doors to their houses, since they're all Jumpers? They can only jump once every 5 minutes, so I would think yes. How often they use them is another matter. Secret holding spaces that can only be reached by teleportation sound logical as well, unless the ability has an "by line of sight" condition to it. How do they and House Orien interact/compete? In my setting, at first release, they won't. Eladrin will generally stick to their plane, which means that Khorvair is not really effected by them. When house Orien does interact with them, it will be with suspicion. An entire race that can do what they can do, but without a dragon mark, scares them a bit. Of course, members of the house with greater dragonmarks can still do more than an Eladrin can, which is something that they will like to remind themselves often in the presence of an Eladrin.
Rekko 03-18-08, 08:25 PM	Moreover, the mechanics of the dragonmarks are surely going to change, and so are their abilities. They'll keep the same flavor, but mechanical changes are in order.
Kreistor2 03-18-08, 10:39 PM	I also think it goes against the "no sub-races" concept of Eberron. There is no "no sub-races" concept in Eberron.
Cyber-Dave 03-18-08, 11:39 PM	You notice how Vaelnar and Aerenal elves don't use diffrent stats in 3.5? Thats for a reason. Sub-cultures, not sub-races. I've been won over on this argument after reading what some others have written.
androkguz 03-19-08, 12:46 AM	This makes no difference. The fact that the Githzerai have it acts as a precedent for this sort of ability. The number of times per day is inconsequential. Balance is balance. The Githzerai can only do it once per day at nine level because the spell can actually be used to travel. The Eladrin can do it once per encounter, because the ability cannot be used to travel to another plane. After a few fractions of a second, it snaps you back to the plane from which it was used. Either way, the metaphysical description for why the ability works still stands. Honestly, you have no real basis to argue that such an ability is illogical anymore... if other races can do this sort of thing, why can't the Eladrin as well (in a balanced manner)? Saying that it isn't balanced does not work either, because if the mechanic are balanced with the core cosmology from the 4e book, its balanced with the description I gave it for the Eberron cosmology. Balance is not a factor of fluff or cosmology, but mechanic, and I am not saying the mechanic should be changed. That's a horrible explanation. Look: feystep has a limit of distance because the feywild is a coexistant plane. That means that each point in the material has an equivalent in the feywild and viceversa. So when the Eladrin move into the feywild they do so for a brief moment, move (literally walk or run) in the feywild and then reappear in the equivalent point in the material to that of the feywild in which the eladrin last stepped. Thelanis and the other orbiting planes are NOT coexistant to the material plane. It's just like the outer an inner planes in the Greyhawk cosmology. There's no "hell step" because the nine hells are just like... another planet. There's no point to point correlation between the nine hell and the material plane so teleporting to the nine hells to move throught the material is teleporting to the nine hells and then teleporting to the material in a different spot. It is not really smarter than just actually teleporting from the material to the material, and that should be easier (it's more logical that it's easier) The disaster is that if the eladrin can pop into Thelanis, at least for a microsecond, they should be able to pop anywhere in Thelanis. Because there's no point to point correlation between the material plane and Thelanis. That does has a lot of implications. The Dreaming Dark actually has something like this. Two quori spirits can be inside a pair of inspired in two different continent and when they both go to sleep, the quori travel back to Dal Quor and can talk face to face. This means that this two (who are in different continents) can plot and that in fact the whole organization of the Dreaming Dark can be in constant contact each day. I think that substituiting Eladrin for Eladrin is a great idea but that's not enought. Eladrin are surely not going to have just feystep as the only feywild power. By the way, I gotta point out that the coterminouness of Thelanis is not an issue. We can simply say that 998 YK is the second of the seven (and we could extend that) years period in which Thelanis is cotermineous to Eberron. Perhaps we could say that Thelanis adopts a state similar to that of a coexistant plane (the point to point thing) when it's coterminous to another plane. That would give us a temporal Feywild (which will probably last enought for the campaing to end)
Rauric 03-19-08, 08:54 AM	I thought there were glades and areas that "touched" Thelanis? Perhaps it will work differently fluff wise for Eladrin in EB. To me eladrin can be brought in as a new race more in tune with the fey. I am sure Keith has some ideas since his whole third novel was set in Thelanis. (Which was really good source info Keith!)
Cyber-Dave 03-19-08, 10:10 AM	Thelanis is described as being "physically similar to Eberron"... there is nothing to suggest that the two planes might not have relational geography. That's a horrible explanation. Look: feystep has a limit of distance because the feywild is a coexistant plane. That means that each point in the material has an equivalent in the feywild and viceversa. So when the Eladrin move into the feywild they do so for a brief moment, move (literally walk or run) in the feywild and then reappear in the equivalent point in the material to that of the feywild in which the eladrin last stepped. Thelanis and the other orbiting planes are NOT coexistant to the material plane. It's just like the outer an inner planes in the Greyhawk cosmology. There's no "hell step" because the nine hells are just like... another planet. There's no point to point correlation between the nine hell and the material plane so teleporting to the nine hells to move throught the material is teleporting to the nine hells and then teleporting to the material in a different spot. It is not really smarter than just actually teleporting from the material to the material, and that should be easier (it's more logical that it's easier) The disaster is that if the eladrin can pop into Thelanis, at least for a microsecond, they should be able to pop anywhere in Thelanis. Because there's no point to point correlation between the material plane and Thelanis. That does has a lot of implications. The Dreaming Dark actually has something like this. Two quori spirits can be inside a pair of inspired in two different continent and when they both go to sleep, the quori travel back to Dal Quor and can talk face to face. This means that this two (who are in different continents) can plot and that in fact the whole organization of the Dreaming Dark can be in constant contact each day. I think that substituiting Eladrin for Eladrin is a great idea but that's not enought. Eladrin are surely not going to have just feystep as the only feywild power. By the way, I gotta point out that the coterminouness of Thelanis is not an issue. We can simply say that 998 YK is the second of the seven (and we could extend that) years period in which Thelanis is cotermineous to Eberron. Perhaps we could say that Thelanis adopts a state similar to that of a coexistant plane (the point to point thing) when it's coterminous to another plane. That would give us a temporal Feywild (which will probably last enought for the campaing to end)
DrewDaGreek 03-19-08, 11:39 PM	I would guess that the elves would remain elves. These new Eladrin would likely come from the Twilight Demense in the Eldeen Reaches, or have been living in hidden enclaves throughout Xen'drik. Potentially, they could have been elves that fled to a Thelanis manifest zone to avoid giant enslavement. After millenia in isolation, they have been changed by the Faerie plane. For some unknown reason, more have begun to venture out of Thelanis in recent years, taking more of an interest in Eberron.
Arcane Guyver 03-20-08, 01:18 AM	Thelanis and the other orbiting planes are NOT coexistant to the material plane. It's just like the outer an inner planes in the Greyhawk cosmology. There's no "hell step" because the nine hells are just like... another planet. Hey, don't sweat it! Magic! ;)
Hellcow 03-20-08, 12:29 PM	The Dreaming Dark actually has something like this. Two quori spirits can be inside a pair of inspired in two different continent and when they both go to sleep, the quori travel back to Dal Quor and can talk face to face. This means that this two (who are in different continents) can plot and that in fact the whole organization of the Dreaming Dark can be in constant contact each day. Actually, this doesn't prove anything. Quori have greater teleport as an at-will ability while in Dal Quor (check the Quori traits in the ECS). So even if Dal Quor WAS transitive and quori possession dropped them into a physical space corresponding to the space in the material plane, it wouldn't affect them at all. They'd come in continents apart from each other, and then teleport to Dreaming Dark HQ for their meeting.
Cyber-Dave 03-20-08, 03:42 PM	W00t. And Kieth comes to my aid in making my point! Badabing... :rimshot: Kieth, I forgive you for scarring me for life with the comment that shall not be named. :P
androkguz 03-22-08, 10:39 PM	Actually, this doesn't prove anything. Quori have greater teleport as an at-will ability while in Dal Quor (check the Quori traits in the ECS). So even if Dal Quor WAS transitive and quori possession dropped them into a physical space corresponding to the space in the material plane, it wouldn't affect them at all. They'd come in continents apart from each other, and then teleport to Dreaming Dark HQ for their meeting. Ok, you ruined my quori-argument. But not all my argument.