empty vessel race [Archive] - Wizards Community

empty vessel race [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pegasuspaladin
02-17-07, 10:40 PM What would the racial traits of an empty vessel be. Such as what penalties and bonuses would it get to it's attributes, race skills, etc.
tallric_kruush
02-17-07, 10:44 PM What would the racial traits of an empty vessel be. Such as what penalties and bonuses would it get to it's attributes, race skills, etc.

See ECS p.291 for the Inspired Empty Vessel stats. They're essentially psionic humans. We can't share their stats since none of the ECS is Open Gaming Content.
Lux72
02-17-07, 10:53 PM Generically speaking the empty vessel combines some of the racial benefits of Kalashtar and Human but has a level adjustment.
tallric_kruush
02-17-07, 11:05 PM Generically speaking the empty vessel combines some of the racial benefits of Kalashtar and Human but has a level adjustment.

Well played, sir. I don't think you could've toed that line any closer.;)
Roland the Crownbreaker
02-18-07, 12:53 AM I'm not sure if this can be posted or not, but here goes.....

Empty Vessels make a terrible PC race. Something about that "Can be possessed by a Quori at any time, with no saving throw."

Not exactly what I would consider fun to play.
GreenWarlock
02-19-07, 12:10 PM actually i had a great idea for Pc being a empty vessel Quori Mindhunter, Basically having trapped the quori that was supposed ot posses him inside his head.
tallric_kruush
02-19-07, 02:21 PM actually i had a great idea for Pc being a empty vessel Quori Mindhunter, Basically having trapped the quori that was supposed ot posses him inside his head.

Guy had a change of heart once he realized what type of spirit he was really hosting, eh? I imagine some would, and that for most it would simply be too late. I'm not familiar with the Mindhunter; MoE I assume?
GreenWarlock
02-19-07, 06:02 PM Yeah, the main jist of the class is you trap a qouri inside your mind, making you immune to possesion and leeching psionics off of it. The best part is that the fluff says the thing talks to you. I love the idea of going around fighting the qouri wiht an angry one caged inside your mind.
UnderworldLord
02-19-07, 06:08 PM That would be friggin hilarious.
Kreistor2
02-19-07, 07:15 PM Empty Vessels are humans. Use human stats and abilities.
GreenWarlock
02-19-07, 10:13 PM Sorry Kreistor, Empty vessels are not humans, they are humans bred to be psionic and pliable hosts, they hve gone to the point where they need disguise checks to be human.
Bonewarden
02-24-07, 09:14 AM Wouldn't trapping a quori and leeching it's psionic power make him an Elan instead of an empty vessel? Wondering myself about this as I have a PC in an upcoming Eberron campaign who wants to play an empty vessel and I'm trying to figure out how to get around the whole possession by quori thing.
UnderworldLord
02-24-07, 10:15 AM Its a PrC. Elans are prisons for Quori and they take their power frm it. Sure they are similar, but a Elan's Quori has no control, and the Elan don't necessarily know that they are even powered by a trapped Quori. Empty Vessels, however, tend to want to be possessed. Maybe your PC does too. Perhaps he's got a place in the draconic prophecy. Having a Quori stop by to visit him once in a while might make a great plot hook even. Millions of ways to sides step this problem, you just have toget creative about it.

That having been said, no they weren't meant to be a PC race anymore than golems were, and this particular problem is why. You should let the player know that too.
Edo_555
02-26-07, 11:22 AM Its a PrC. Elans are prisons for Quori and they take their power frm it. Sure they are similar, but a Elan's Quori has no control, and the Elan don't necessarily know that they are even powered by a trapped Quori. Empty Vessels, however, tend to want to be possessed. Maybe your PC does too. Perhaps he's got a place in the draconic prophecy. Having a Quori stop by to visit him once in a while might make a great plot hook even. Millions of ways to sides step this problem, you just have toget creative about it.

That having been said, no they weren't meant to be a PC race anymore than golems were, and this particular problem is why. You should let the player know that too.It reminds of banal cartoon & comics story, that good guy is possesed by evil spirit or something like that, he is almoust lost, but then he realises, that he is actualy good and then he defeats evil inside of his mind.
But this wount go in this situation.
Kreistor2
02-26-07, 02:00 PM Sorry Kreistor, Empty vessels are not humans, they are humans bred to be psionic and pliable hosts, they hve gone to the point where they need disguise checks to be human.

Mr. Baker has said in the past to just use the human template. They are human.

A couple thousand years of breeding isn't enough to change the base nature of a race.
Wymarc
02-26-07, 02:19 PM Mr. Baker has said in the past to just use the human template. They are human.

A couple thousand years of breeding isn't enough to change the base nature of a race.

afraid not according to WoTC, they are not human, see p.291 of the ECS
jonci
02-26-07, 06:59 PM Guy had a change of heart once he realized what type of spirit he was really hosting, eh? I imagine some would, and that for most it would simply be too late. I'm not familiar with the Mindhunter; MoE I assume?

Mindhunter is in Player's Guide to Eberron.
krocha
02-27-07, 10:56 AM Mindhunter is in Player's Guide to Eberron.

Actually the Quori Mindhunter PrC is found in MoE on pg. 77
Hellcow
02-27-07, 12:39 PM Mr. Baker has said in the past to just use the human template. They are human.
Empty vessels are empty vessels, as defined in the Inspired section of the ECS. They are, for all intents and purposes, a human subrace. A few of the defining features of an empty vessel:
They possess the human SUBTYPE (which may be what you meant by "template", Kreistor).
They receive an extra psionic point per character level, like the kalashtar.
They DO have to make Disguise checks to pass as normal humans - however, like the kalashtar, they get a +2 bonus which offsets the usual penalty for disguising as a member of another race.
An empty vessel is genetically and spiritually predisposed to be possessed by a specific quori spirit. While it CAN serve as a vessel for any quori, its linked spirit can possess the vessel at any time - the vessel doesn't have to be willing and gets no saving throw against this, and the quori can possess the vessel regardless of its Charisma (which is otherwise a significant restriction for possessing kalaraqs).
So empty vessels are ESSENTIALLY human, and are not supposed to possess ability score modifiers that humans do not - although the eugenics and training they undergo mean that most are peak specimens of humanity, and thus use the elite array to generate ability scores. But they are a true subrace - a slight genetic drift off of humanity - as opposed to being a unique race.

A couple thousand years of breeding isn't enough to change the base nature of a race.
While I generally agree with you on the subject of races, Kreistor, in this case it's important to bear in mind that it's not just breeding; they are using metacreative and telepathic techniques to produce superior hosts. This isn't just natural selection - it's active manipulation using techniques that don't exist in our world.
Kreistor2
02-27-07, 12:56 PM Yeah, I forgot that you stat'ed them out. My bad.
Lueten_Corinesti
03-01-07, 11:37 PM Then why the +1?
If they get no attributes mods and nothing else of any real importance and get the negative of automatically being taken over where is the positive?
The Dreaming Duck
03-02-07, 12:04 AM Then why the +1?
If they get no attributes mods and nothing else of any real importance and get the negative of automatically being taken over where is the positive?
Let's break this down.

and get the negative of automatically being taken over...
Empty vessels are not intended as a player race; this is explicitly stated in the description of the race. The inability of resisting possession is only a negative if the character would resist possession if he had the choice. Since no Inspired would resist possession, this ISN'T a negative. If anything it's a positive, because the character can ignore the Charisma limitation normally applied to possession.

So, this is a negative for a PC - but the race wasn't designed for PCs, and it's not a negative for the Inspired.

If they get no attributes mods and nothing else of any real importance... where is the positive?
Clearly we have different ideas about what's important.

Humans don't have attibute modifiers; all they get is additional skill points and a bonus feat. An empty vessel gets both of these. So: it has everything a human has.

On top of this: without violating the ToC, it has a bonus to four skills. If you don't plan to use those skills, this may not be "of much importance". However, the Inspired in Khorvaire are frequently engaged in either intrigue or diplomacy, and all of these skills apply to these things. If you want to make a vicious killer, three of these skills may not help you; but if you're making a spy or a courtier, they're all quite useful. Given that the traditional feat structure is that a feat gets you a +2 to two skills, this is essentially a feat and a half's bonus on top of the base human bonus.

On top of THIS, you have the bonus psionic points. While a minimal plus to a full psion, these are GREAT for a psychic warrior or for a character who takes just a few levels of manifester and then pursues another class, since you continue to gain new power points with every level.

The empty vessel receives the primary benefits of being human (feat, skills) and then two additional benefits on top of that. Essentially, it has almost all of the benefits of being kalashtar and human - and note that neither of THESE races have ability modifiers.

Is it a strong +1 LA? Maybe not. However, it's certainly better than a +0 LA human or kalashtar, because it has the benefits of both races.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pegasuspaladin 02-17-07, 10:40 PM	What would the racial traits of an empty vessel be. Such as what penalties and bonuses would it get to it's attributes, race skills, etc.
tallric_kruush 02-17-07, 10:44 PM	What would the racial traits of an empty vessel be. Such as what penalties and bonuses would it get to it's attributes, race skills, etc. See ECS p.291 for the Inspired Empty Vessel stats. They're essentially psionic humans. We can't share their stats since none of the ECS is Open Gaming Content.
Lux72 02-17-07, 10:53 PM	Generically speaking the empty vessel combines some of the racial benefits of Kalashtar and Human but has a level adjustment.
tallric_kruush 02-17-07, 11:05 PM	Generically speaking the empty vessel combines some of the racial benefits of Kalashtar and Human but has a level adjustment. Well played, sir. I don't think you could've toed that line any closer.;)
Roland the Crownbreaker 02-18-07, 12:53 AM	I'm not sure if this can be posted or not, but here goes..... Empty Vessels make a terrible PC race. Something about that "Can be possessed by a Quori at any time, with no saving throw." Not exactly what I would consider fun to play.
GreenWarlock 02-19-07, 12:10 PM	actually i had a great idea for Pc being a empty vessel Quori Mindhunter, Basically having trapped the quori that was supposed ot posses him inside his head.
tallric_kruush 02-19-07, 02:21 PM	actually i had a great idea for Pc being a empty vessel Quori Mindhunter, Basically having trapped the quori that was supposed ot posses him inside his head. Guy had a change of heart once he realized what type of spirit he was really hosting, eh? I imagine some would, and that for most it would simply be too late. I'm not familiar with the Mindhunter; MoE I assume?
GreenWarlock 02-19-07, 06:02 PM	Yeah, the main jist of the class is you trap a qouri inside your mind, making you immune to possesion and leeching psionics off of it. The best part is that the fluff says the thing talks to you. I love the idea of going around fighting the qouri wiht an angry one caged inside your mind.
UnderworldLord 02-19-07, 06:08 PM	That would be friggin hilarious.
Kreistor2 02-19-07, 07:15 PM	Empty Vessels are humans. Use human stats and abilities.
GreenWarlock 02-19-07, 10:13 PM	Sorry Kreistor, Empty vessels are not humans, they are humans bred to be psionic and pliable hosts, they hve gone to the point where they need disguise checks to be human.
Bonewarden 02-24-07, 09:14 AM	Wouldn't trapping a quori and leeching it's psionic power make him an Elan instead of an empty vessel? Wondering myself about this as I have a PC in an upcoming Eberron campaign who wants to play an empty vessel and I'm trying to figure out how to get around the whole possession by quori thing.
UnderworldLord 02-24-07, 10:15 AM	Its a PrC. Elans are prisons for Quori and they take their power frm it. Sure they are similar, but a Elan's Quori has no control, and the Elan don't necessarily know that they are even powered by a trapped Quori. Empty Vessels, however, tend to want to be possessed. Maybe your PC does too. Perhaps he's got a place in the draconic prophecy. Having a Quori stop by to visit him once in a while might make a great plot hook even. Millions of ways to sides step this problem, you just have toget creative about it. That having been said, no they weren't meant to be a PC race anymore than golems were, and this particular problem is why. You should let the player know that too.
Edo_555 02-26-07, 11:22 AM	Its a PrC. Elans are prisons for Quori and they take their power frm it. Sure they are similar, but a Elan's Quori has no control, and the Elan don't necessarily know that they are even powered by a trapped Quori. Empty Vessels, however, tend to want to be possessed. Maybe your PC does too. Perhaps he's got a place in the draconic prophecy. Having a Quori stop by to visit him once in a while might make a great plot hook even. Millions of ways to sides step this problem, you just have toget creative about it. That having been said, no they weren't meant to be a PC race anymore than golems were, and this particular problem is why. You should let the player know that too.It reminds of banal cartoon & comics story, that good guy is possesed by evil spirit or something like that, he is almoust lost, but then he realises, that he is actualy good and then he defeats evil inside of his mind. But this wount go in this situation.
Kreistor2 02-26-07, 02:00 PM	Sorry Kreistor, Empty vessels are not humans, they are humans bred to be psionic and pliable hosts, they hve gone to the point where they need disguise checks to be human. Mr. Baker has said in the past to just use the human template. They are human. A couple thousand years of breeding isn't enough to change the base nature of a race.
Wymarc 02-26-07, 02:19 PM	Mr. Baker has said in the past to just use the human template. They are human. A couple thousand years of breeding isn't enough to change the base nature of a race. afraid not according to WoTC, they are not human, see p.291 of the ECS
jonci 02-26-07, 06:59 PM	Guy had a change of heart once he realized what type of spirit he was really hosting, eh? I imagine some would, and that for most it would simply be too late. I'm not familiar with the Mindhunter; MoE I assume? Mindhunter is in Player's Guide to Eberron.
krocha 02-27-07, 10:56 AM	Mindhunter is in Player's Guide to Eberron. Actually the Quori Mindhunter PrC is found in MoE on pg. 77
Hellcow 02-27-07, 12:39 PM	Mr. Baker has said in the past to just use the human template. They are human. Empty vessels are empty vessels, as defined in the Inspired section of the ECS. They are, for all intents and purposes, a human subrace. A few of the defining features of an empty vessel: They possess the human SUBTYPE (which may be what you meant by "template", Kreistor). They receive an extra psionic point per character level, like the kalashtar. They DO have to make Disguise checks to pass as normal humans - however, like the kalashtar, they get a +2 bonus which offsets the usual penalty for disguising as a member of another race. An empty vessel is genetically and spiritually predisposed to be possessed by a specific quori spirit. While it CAN serve as a vessel for any quori, its linked spirit can possess the vessel at any time - the vessel doesn't have to be willing and gets no saving throw against this, and the quori can possess the vessel regardless of its Charisma (which is otherwise a significant restriction for possessing kalaraqs). So empty vessels are ESSENTIALLY human, and are not supposed to possess ability score modifiers that humans do not - although the eugenics and training they undergo mean that most are peak specimens of humanity, and thus use the elite array to generate ability scores. But they are a true subrace - a slight genetic drift off of humanity - as opposed to being a unique race. A couple thousand years of breeding isn't enough to change the base nature of a race. While I generally agree with you on the subject of races, Kreistor, in this case it's important to bear in mind that it's not just breeding; they are using metacreative and telepathic techniques to produce superior hosts. This isn't just natural selection - it's active manipulation using techniques that don't exist in our world.
Kreistor2 02-27-07, 12:56 PM	Yeah, I forgot that you stat'ed them out. My bad.
Lueten_Corinesti 03-01-07, 11:37 PM	Then why the +1? If they get no attributes mods and nothing else of any real importance and get the negative of automatically being taken over where is the positive?
The Dreaming Duck 03-02-07, 12:04 AM	Then why the +1? If they get no attributes mods and nothing else of any real importance and get the negative of automatically being taken over where is the positive? Let's break this down. and get the negative of automatically being taken over... Empty vessels are not intended as a player race; this is explicitly stated in the description of the race. The inability of resisting possession is only a negative if the character would resist possession if he had the choice. Since no Inspired would resist possession, this ISN'T a negative. If anything it's a positive, because the character can ignore the Charisma limitation normally applied to possession. So, this is a negative for a PC - but the race wasn't designed for PCs, and it's not a negative for the Inspired. If they get no attributes mods and nothing else of any real importance... where is the positive? Clearly we have different ideas about what's important. Humans don't have attibute modifiers; all they get is additional skill points and a bonus feat. An empty vessel gets both of these. So: it has everything a human has. On top of this: without violating the ToC, it has a bonus to four skills. If you don't plan to use those skills, this may not be "of much importance". However, the Inspired in Khorvaire are frequently engaged in either intrigue or diplomacy, and all of these skills apply to these things. If you want to make a vicious killer, three of these skills may not help you; but if you're making a spy or a courtier, they're all quite useful. Given that the traditional feat structure is that a feat gets you a +2 to two skills, this is essentially a feat and a half's bonus on top of the base human bonus. On top of THIS, you have the bonus psionic points. While a minimal plus to a full psion, these are GREAT for a psychic warrior or for a character who takes just a few levels of manifester and then pursues another class, since you continue to gain new power points with every level. The empty vessel receives the primary benefits of being human (feat, skills) and then two additional benefits on top of that. Essentially, it has almost all of the benefits of being kalashtar and human - and note that neither of THESE races have ability modifiers. Is it a strong +1 LA? Maybe not. However, it's certainly better than a +0 LA human or kalashtar, because it has the benefits of both races.