Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Wilgar 04-25-07, 08:38 PM	Couldn't decide if this belonged here or in the Arms and Armor section, so mods, please move it if necessary. I know that a warforged's composite plating can be enchanted, so it's basically masterwork already right? And no, I'm not fishing for further Armor Penalty reductions or some such nonsense, I'm just want to know if giving a warforged +1 composite plating would cost exactly 1,000 gp or not. In a similar vein, could a warforged have it's slam attack enchanted? And finally, a question for the DM's out there. Would you allow an alternate version of the Healing and Greater Healing magic armor properties from Magic Item Compendium (page 12)? Repairing and Greater Repairing, or some such, just swap out the cure spell prereqs for the appropriate repair damage spells?
RogueElement 04-25-07, 08:45 PM	Couldn't decide if this belonged here or in the Arms and Armor section, so mods, please move it if necessary. I know that a warforged's composite plating can be enchanted, so it's basically masterwork already right? And no, I'm not fishing for further Armor Penalty reductions or some such nonsense, I'm just want to know if giving a warforged +1 composite plating would cost exactly 1,000 gp or not. In a similar vein, could a warforged have it's slam attack enchanted? And finally, a question for the DM's out there. Would you allow an alternate version of the Healing and Greater Healing magic armor properties from Magic Item Compendium (page 12)? Repairing and Greater Repairing, or some such, just swap out the cure spell prereqs for the appropriate repair damage spells? 1) Yes. 2) DMs usually say Yes. And Yes to Jaws of Death too...Flaming Jaws of Death is just too cool even if you aren't a fighter/meleeficer. 3) I've never seen it come up, so can't answer that one.
Kinger 04-26-07, 06:04 PM	2) DMs usually say Yes. And Yes to Jaws of Death too...Flaming Jaws of Death is just too cool even if you aren't a fighter/meleeficer. Which DMs are those, then? I'm certainly not one of them. A Warforged that wants to have Flaming Slams or what-have-you need only purchase/craft a Flaming Battlefist. I don't let Warforged just put it on their fists any more than I would any monk, Druid in Wildshape, or anyone else with a natural attack.
Dr. Benway 04-26-07, 07:19 PM	Which DMs are those, then? I'm certainly not one of them. A Warforged that wants to have Flaming Slams or what-have-you need only purchase/craft a Flaming Battlefist. I don't let Warforged just put it on their fists any more than I would any monk, Druid in Wildshape, or anyone else with a natural attack. Altho I agree with this, there ARE ways to enchant all of the above with weapon enchantments. There are a number of spells, magic items, feats, and prestige classes that do exactly that. Additionally, you could always get Greater Magic Fang permanently cast on you as well. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Kinger 04-26-07, 09:59 PM	Altho I agree with this, there ARE ways to enchant all of the above with weapon enchantments. There are a number of spells, magic items, feats, and prestige classes that do exactly that. Additionally, you could always get Greater Magic Fang permanently cast on you as well. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail? Well sure, but those are available to anyone. My point is that a Warforged can't just go to the local Cannith enclave and expect an Artificer to enchant his Slam to +2 with Craft Magic Arms and Armor. There's rules for giving his Composite Plating armor enhancements, but nothing else that I'm aware of.
Hideous Phidias 04-27-07, 01:19 PM	I would have to agree get the battlefist out of ECS, they are only 2600gp. For that you get a better slam that also become a +1. I would also take the feat Shocking fist from PGtE pg 150. For every point of damage you are willing to take you get a d4 on damage, this being electricity.
Phalo 05-06-07, 09:59 PM	you could enchant your natural weapon there is even an infusion to that regard. every bit of a warforged can be enchanted but i agree in part with the above post having an item you can removed ad switch out with another would be better
Phalo 05-06-07, 10:03 PM	Which DMs are those, then? I'm certainly not one of them. A Warforged that wants to have Flaming Slams or what-have-you need only purchase/craft a Flaming Battlefist. I don't let Warforged just put it on their fists any more than I would any monk, Druid in Wildshape, or anyone else with a natural attack. But a warforged is able to be enchanted. I would allow it, but suggest an embedded component instead
Kinger 05-06-07, 10:10 PM	But a warforged is able to be enchanted. I would allow it, but suggest an embedded component instead No, a Warforged's Composite Plating can be given magical enhancements as if it were armor. Other than that, a Warforged cannot be enchanted any more than an elf can be, excluding infusions (which are irrelevant to this discussion anyway). That's all the rules say, and I agree with them.
TheAnthroDM 05-07-07, 12:15 AM	The reason one cannot enhance their natural weapons or unarmed attack is because you have to take the weapon apart as part of the process, and this would obviously this would hurt like **** equivalant to self mutaltion, a warforged can likewise not do this because it would hurt. It is generally accepted that a warforged cannot feel the area in which it has composite plating because it is just attached armor. (One of the reasons why almost all my warforged have Unarmored Body feat.)
Edymnion 05-07-07, 06:12 PM	I know that a warforged's composite plating can be enchanted, so it's basically masterwork already right? And no, I'm not fishing for further Armor Penalty reductions or some such nonsense, I'm just want to know if giving a warforged +1 composite plating would cost exactly 1,000 gp or not.It is not masterwork, it is not non-masterwork. It can simply be enchanted as if it were. I know its splitting hairs, but its very important to keep it in your head that composite plating is a FEAT, it is not necissarily physical armor thats just bolted on. It sort of is, but in all mechanical ways, CP interacts as a feat, not armor. The base item being masterwork or not has nothing to do with enchanting prices, as the masterwork is simply a prereq before you can do the enchanting in the first place.In a similar vein, could a warforged have it's slam attack enchanted?No. Nothing in the racial entry says it can, so it can't. Composite Plating is the *ONLY* thing you can directly enchant on a Warforged. Even if you have the bite feat, it does not give you an item to bite with, it gives you a natural attack, which cannot be directly enchanted as it is part of a creature, not an object. However, you could enchant a battlefist for the same effect, or get an Amulet of Natural Attack (or whatever it is that lets you get plusses on unarmed attacks). And finally, a question for the DM's out there. Would you allow an alternate version of the Healing and Greater Healing magic armor properties from Magic Item Compendium (page 12)? Repairing and Greater Repairing, or some such, just swap out the cure spell prereqs for the appropriate repair damage spells?Sounds fine to me. I'd just throw on the clause it only works on constructs though, to keep them from putting statues and doors and the like into the armor to repair damage. you could enchant your natural weapon there is even an infusion to that regard.An infusion that, as written, doesn't work. The warforged clause still works, but the rest don't, as it says you infuse the natural weapons directly, which you cannot do because they are not objects, and you can only infuse objects and constructs.
sirhcvd02 05-11-07, 05:03 AM	umm i dont think any of you guys have read the Races of Eberron book, because there are specific feats entailing this. pg. 179 infusions 1st lv - natural weapon augmetation, personal 2nd lv - natural weapon augmentation, lesser 4th lv - natural weapon augmentation 6th lv - natural weapon augmentation, greater I would argue that a natural slam attack could be the made as a gauntlet, masterwork (because warforged can use components instead of gloves) which does the 1d3 damage and can be made into magical weapons in their own right. The natural slam attack though is just that, a natural attack like animals, doesnt get extra attack at higher base attacks, etc. thats why the Races of Eberron book specifies a whole list of infusions just for that.
Cifer 05-11-07, 07:42 AM	I would argue that a natural slam attack could be the made as a gauntlet, masterwork (because warforged can use components instead of gloves) which does the 1d3 damage and can be made into magical weapons in their own right. Umm I don't think you read the Eberron Campaign Setting book, because there is a specific component that deals with this: The battle fist. Funnily, it has also already been mentioned in this very thread. Otherwise, no, standard gauntlets cannot in any way enhance a natural attack. Sounds fine to me. I'd just throw on the clause it only works on constructs though, to keep them from putting statues and doors and the like into the armor to repair damage. For some unknown reason, you can't Repair damage dealt to objects with the spells anyway by RAW. Whether that makes sense is another question...
Edymnion 05-11-07, 06:43 PM	For some unknown reason, you can't Repair damage dealt to objects with the spells anyway by RAW. Whether that makes sense is another question...I thought you could repair objects with the spell? Guess I've been running on a houserule then.
sirhcvd02 05-11-07, 06:57 PM	ya, ur right about the battlefist pg268 in the ECS. Also just wanted to mention that I actually count the unarmed attack to be a "manfactured weapon" as described in pg299, so it does count as a regular weapon. For those that take the mithral, or adamantite starting feats, they should technically start with masterwork natural attacks too.
Kinger 05-11-07, 08:18 PM	Why should they? They're not wearing masterwork gauntlets (which I'm not convinced come with a suit of masterwork armor by default). They don't even have masterwork armor on. They have particular feats that provide particular benefits, all of which are laid out in their descriptors. A +1 enhancement bonus to unarmed attack rolls or slams isn't listed there, so "technically" they shouldn't have anything of the sort.
Rerecros 05-11-07, 09:21 PM	In a similar vein, could a warforged have it's slam attack enchanted? Absolutley, their slam attack is essentially a gauntlet. And permanent magic fang would also work.
Logos7 05-11-07, 09:41 PM	essentially is not the same as RAW and RAW repeatedly says no and provides an alternative in numerous placees ( Battle fists , and Natural Weapon Augmentation) Would it wreck a game, I doubt it if warforged want to use what essentially is a club that choice already seems so mechanically deficient as not to worry me personally anyway. Do warforged need another bone? I doubt it . Go with what Edimon says cause the guy knows business Logos
Kinger 05-12-07, 01:14 AM	Absolutley, their slam attack is essentially a gauntlet. Except that, y'know, it isn't. :rolleyes: Making Greater Magic Fang permanent via Permanency is, however, a fully legitimate (and recommended) course of action.
Cifer 05-12-07, 07:53 PM	Do warforged need another bone? Your WF have Bones? Mine only get the wooden fiber, some stones and their plating... *g*
Edymnion 05-12-07, 08:01 PM	Absolutley, their slam attack is essentially a gauntlet.No, its not. You can get multiple attacks from a high BAB with a guantlet. A level 20 WF Barbarian and a lvl 1 WF Wizard get the exact same number of Slam attacks (barring feats). One. Its a natural attack, and follows the natural attack rules. It has *NOTHING* to do with guantlets or anything else. Technically, it doesn't even have to be made with your fists, its just that the item that boosts your slam damage happens to be on your fists. Its also a magical item that doesn't work as a mundane item, which means it has nothing to do with the added mass on your fists when it comes to your slam attack, but the magic in the item. Your slam could just as well be a backhand, a shoulder slam, a kick, or a belly flop if you wanted.
clint_weststone 05-13-07, 07:59 AM	[QUOTE=Kinger;12370888]Why should they? They're not wearing masterwork gauntlets (which I'm not convinced come with a suit of masterwork armor by default). phb says that all suits of armor have gauntlets. this being said would you let your wf wear gauntlets of dex? they are not wearing gauntlets.
Cifer 05-13-07, 10:19 AM	phb says that all suits of armor have gauntlets. It doesn't say anything about MW suits having MW gauntlets. Being optimized for defense is something else than being optimized for punching people and +5 armor most certainly doesn't come with +5 gauntlets... this being said would you let your wf wear gauntlets of dex? they are not wearing gauntlets. Well, I'd advise the standard gloves of dexterity, but yes, I would. The plating blocks only the robe/armor slot.
RogueElement 05-13-07, 12:38 PM	Which DMs are those, then? I'm certainly not one of them. A Warforged that wants to have Flaming Slams or what-have-you need only purchase/craft a Flaming Battlefist. I don't let Warforged just put it on their fists any more than I would any monk, Druid in Wildshape, or anyone else with a natural attack. Good thing I said "usually" then, huh? A slam is not the same thing as a battlefist. Many DMs (please notice the "many" this time Kinger) say that a slam is different than an unarmed/gauntlet fist attack and hence a warforged with a Slam attack, a Second Slam (from the feat), a battlefist, and a second battlefist in use from Two-Weapon Fighting feat actually has FOUR attacks before adding in multiple attacks from a high BAB.
Edymnion 05-13-07, 12:40 PM	Good thing I said "usually" then isn't it? A slam is not the same thing as a battlefist. Many DMs (please notice the "many" this time Kinger) say that a slam is different than an unarmed fist attack and hence a warforged with a Slam attack, a Second Slam (from the feat), a battlefist, and a second battlefist in use from Two-Weapon Fighting feat actually has FOUR attacks before adding in multiple attacks from a high BAB.Actually, I'm pretty sure it specifically says that wearing two battlefists doesn't really do anything for you, and I know TWF doesn't work on natural attacks. From what I've seen, 2 slams is about the best you can get out of a WF per round. The TWF would have to be done with their unarmed attacks, which are not the same thing as their slams (and do less damage).
RogueElement 05-13-07, 12:50 PM	Actually, I'm pretty sure it specifically says that wearing two battlefists doesn't really do anything for you, and I know TWF doesn't work on natural attacks. From what I've seen, 2 slams is about the best you can get out of a WF per round. The TWF would have to be done with their unarmed attacks, which are not the same thing as their slams (and do less damage). Oh you're preaching to the choir here...that was my same argument! I've also seen DMs say that the monk's Flurry of Blows is also added to the mix, giving the warforged several more attacks per round. Personally I would say that the Flurry of Blows are Slam attacks and simply override any existing slam attacks the warforged has. We should write the 4th edition ourselves, the writers don't play the game enough to think of all these things. :D
Ricohard_Draconis 05-14-07, 04:19 AM	The only one i've seen occassionally is letting adamantine plated warforged add that to their slams. Which i did because the players backstory talked bout sword breaking, it was cool and they needed the slight combat boost at early levels.
Edymnion 05-14-07, 12:48 PM	Which i did because the players backstory talked bout sword breaking, it was cool and they needed the slight combat boost at early levels.Wow. How lethal is your game if the Admantine Body Warforged needed a combat BOOST? Usually an Adm Body warforged tend to be the strongest combat characters in the game at early levels...
Dr. Benway 05-14-07, 06:24 PM	I've also seen DMs say that the monk's Flurry of Blows is also added to the mix, giving the warforged several more attacks per round. Good because this is correct by the rules. Personally I would say that the Flurry of Blows are Slam attacks and simply override any existing slam attacks the warforged has. This, however, is not. Limiting a WF this way is both unfair and badly conceived. The race is balanced as is. If you were to take their slam away like this it would require rebalancing it with something else, like a bonus feat. The problem, I think, is that you are thinking about the slam attack in the wrong context. It is a very different thing than the unarmed strikes of a monk. It is affected by completely different kinds of spells and feats and items, and is even handled with a completely different mechanic. By the rules, lets trick out a flurrying Warforged monk. We'll make it a hefty 10th level giving it a BAB of +7 with a flurry lineup of +7/+7/+2. Relevant feats here include: Second slam, Jaws of Death, and Multiattack. Relevant Items: Lets just stick with a battlefist for this example. So, a full attack from this character would look like this: First, a flurry routine doing 2d6 damage at +7/+7/+2 BAB. Next, a series of natural attacks, two slams followed by a bite. The slams do 1d8 each, and the bite does 1d6*. The BAB for all of these attacks is +5. Normally, when using a natural attack as a secondary attack form, the penalty is -5. With Multiattack it changes to -2. Also, as secondary attacks, one would only add half the character's strength bonus to the damage for these. * It is unclear whether a Battlefist would improve the damage of the bite attack from the Jaws of Death feat, so to be on the safe side, I left its dam unchanged at 1d6. So there you have it, a good RAW example of how to integrate Flurrying or any other form of iterative attack based attack routine with natural weapons. This example would work just as well with a TWF fighter, or even a crazy cleric or wizard who liked mixing it up in melee. Hope this helps and clears things up for you... DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
Kinger 05-14-07, 07:11 PM	This comes up all the time, and I'm hesitant to participate, but I'd genuinely like to know your opinion, Doc B, of the Vampire Monk listed in the 3.5 Monster Manual. A monk, so a flurry of blows... but no slams listed in addition. Mistake? Actual correct interpretation (ie: No slammy with unarmed attacky)? Oversight? The FAQ's example of a centaur monk uses Hoofs as its natural attacks in addition to its unarmed ones, but those are hooves. What about slams, or claws, the "hand" weapons? For what little it's worth, I rule that a Slam, like a claw or unarmed attack, cannot be made if the associated appendage is used to attack with a manufactured weapon (or unarmed strike). While a Slam may be a body check, a head butt, a kick in the groin, whatever, as can an unarmed attack, for game mechanical purposes it is made with one's hands. Therefore, nobody can make slams in addition to unarmed attacks or manufactured weapon attacks unless they have sufficient limbs to allow it. Ie: A Maralith gets 1 slam per hand, yes? So, if it only has one longsword, it can attack with that and slam once each with its remaining hands. Warforged have 1 slam only, so no dice. Bites, gores, hooves, and the like are "secondary" and thus fair game for adding to a flurry. Oh god, I contributed, just like a promised myself I never would again...
Ricohard_Draconis 05-14-07, 08:46 PM	Wow. How lethal is your game if the Admantine Body Warforged needed a combat BOOST? Usually an Adm Body warforged tend to be the strongest combat characters in the game at early levels... not that lethal (though i do push the group to fight real villains.) but none of them other than the warforge were combat orientated; a cleric with no physical skill over 10 a rogue with little stamina and a ranger and artificer who were passible. though to be fair the adamantine slam came up all of once. when the warforged shattered the sword of the warforged npc that was attacking their contact. after level three the artificer was far more powerful anyway. so it was pretty much just a coolness flavor thing.
Dr. Benway 05-15-07, 06:18 PM	To reply to Kingers very good points... A lot depends on how you interpret a slam to work. There are two main points of consideration for this: First is whether you rule that slam has to be done witha specific appendage or whether it can be done with any free limb, like an unarmed strike. Second is how wielding a weapon in the appendage effects its ability to subsequently make slams. The way I personally interpret the RAW in these matters is that the Marilith in question cant slam with a hand that is wielding a sword in the same round. However, a Vampire monk could flurry and make a subsequent slam after with the same fist. Altho, due to the flexibility of the unarmed strike as per the PHB, even if you wanted to rule that you cant flurry and slam with the same fists, you dont have to, and can launch a flurry of kicks or headbutts that are then followed by a fist slam. Its really just a matter of how you interpret the aforementioned points. Unfortunately, WotC has never come out with something specific to clear up some of the ambiguities concretely, so its a matter of personal taste at this point... DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?
sirhcvd02 05-16-07, 02:26 PM	i just wanted to mention for a past post... +5 armor with mithral plating on a warforged of course does NOT mean they have +5 attack, its ARMOR, not a magical enhanced armor... Then again, ALL mithral and ALL adamantite MUST be of masterwork quality and their prices INCLUDE masterwork cost, thus if the suit of armor does include gauntlets it should be assumed they are masterwork as well. As for all the multiple slam attack thing, look at MM pg 299, doesn't the warforged attack count as a manufactured weapon, and thus get all of its attacks? "manufactured weapon as its primary attack (and receives multiple attacks with that weapon, if its base attack bonus is +6 or higher)"
Cifer 05-16-07, 02:58 PM	As for all the multiple slam attack thing, look at MM pg 299, doesn't the warforged attack count as a manufactured weapon, and thus get all of its attacks? It most certainly is not. Slam is one of the most-often used kinds of natural weapons.
Dr. Confoundo 05-18-07, 06:46 PM	I just got the Magic Item Compendium , and one thing I've been thinking about regarding Warforged is how they could utilize augment crystals. I’ve never liked the idea of enchanting Warforged directly… I’m sure I’m not the only person whose group, upon defeating a warforged opponent with a +1 Adamantite Body, has the response of “Okay, let’s drag his body back to an artificer so they can disenchant the corpse.” What would be the harm in creating a new warforged component in the augment crystal mold that bestows an enchantment on whatever plating the warforged has? Instead of getting an enchantment on my plating, I’d spend a similar amount of money to get a component that would give me the +1 that I wanted.
Cifer 05-19-07, 09:40 AM	What would be the harm in creating a new warforged component in the augment crystal mold that bestows an enchantment on whatever plating the warforged has? Instead of getting an enchantment on my plating, I’d spend a similar amount of money to get a component that would give me the +1 that I wanted. It'd be a lot more versatile for a start. The drawback WF face is that they can't change their armor - they just can pile more and more enchantments on it. And it would make looting them a lot easier. So there is no harm - it's a direct power-up for them. Whether you want to give it to the WF is up to you, but I believe the current system to be working just fine, especially since it gives my artificer the possibility to slowly take apart a WF's "remains" and see the funny faces of my party.