Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheAnthroDM 04-18-07, 11:58 PM	Okay, when I saw the background for the Eneko race, I closed the book, walked to my computer, and printed up a character sheet. Then I looked at the crunch, and my first thought was "2+2 = 5?!" Why? Let's go over it. Eneko are the children of Half-Giants and Ogre Mages. Problem number one: The Half-Giants are supposed to be decended from the Giants of Xen'drik... but they're psionic, and the Giants of Xen'drik are arcane... -why- are half-giants psionic in ebberon? Problem number two: The Eneko gains spell-like abilities, while I can't disclose what they are, they are NOT on the spell-like abilities list of either Half-Giants or Ogre Mages. Problem number three: Steming exactly from problem number one, Eneko are not psionic, nor do they have a favored psionic class, if they're half half-giant then they should they be naturally psionic. Problem number four: Eneko gain Martial Weapon Profiency(Longbow) as a bonus feat, perhaps I didn't scan through the Syrkarn section too much. Which I admit I only skimmed through since I just got the book a few days ago. So.... can anyone make sense of all this? Or are the Enerko just a flavor dipped ball of non-sensible crunch?
Hideous Phidias 04-19-07, 01:15 AM	1) The Giants of Xen'drik were an arcane culture doing war with a psionic one right. I would think that any one who wanted to understand their enemy would start to study their ways (psionics). So having said that their was most likely psionic Giants and these are the ones more likely to live through a war with the dreaming dark. So the half giants being psionic is explain, maybe. 2) New race new spell like abilities. 3) Not everyone on Sarlona are psionics. 4) I dont have one for te longbow, but I blame the Elves.
TheAnthroDM 04-19-07, 02:24 AM	1) The Giants of Xen'drik were an arcane culture doing war with a psionic one right. I would think that any one who wanted to understand their enemy would start to study their ways (psionics). So having said that their was most likely psionic Giants and these are the ones more likely to live through a war with the dreaming dark. So the half giants being psionic is explain, maybe. 2) New race new spell like abilities. 3) Not everyone on Sarlona are psionics. 4) I dont have one for te longbow, but I blame the Elves. Okay, you're first explantion made sense, but I have comments on all the rest. 2) If the race is half-giant, half ogre mage, why would it develop spell-like abilites that are nothing like the ones of either of it's parent races? 3) No, no, you miss the point, I don't care that they're not psionic and Sarlonian, I care that they're half half-giant and have absolutely no psionic heritage what-so-ever, It just doesn't make sense. 4) As do I.
ekomega 04-19-07, 02:35 AM	The answer is really two questions: 1) Are there half-giants in Eberron? And none of this "everything in DnD is there". Is there documentation of half giants in any of the Eberron books? 2) If there are half-giants in Eberron, are they psionic? I mean real written down statements that say "half-giants in Eberron are psionic". If the answer to either one of these is 'no', then the it seems that you have preconceptions about half-giants, that don't belong in Eberron. If the answer to question 2 is 'yes', then the problem is the intermixing of ogre mage blood, and not whatever other blood is the non-giant half of half-giants. There you go.
TheAnthroDM 04-19-07, 02:50 AM	The answer is really two questions: 1) Are there half-giants in Eberron? And none of this "everything in DnD is there". Is there documentation of half giants in any of the Eberron books? 2) If there are half-giants in Eberron, are they psionic? I mean real written down statements that say "half-giants in Eberron are psionic". If the answer to either one of these is 'no', then the it seems that you have preconceptions about half-giants, that don't belong in Eberron. If the answer to question 2 is 'yes', then the problem is the intermixing of ogre mage blood, and not whatever other blood is the non-giant half of half-giants. There you go. ......the answer to both is yes, see Secrets of Sarlona I never said that the problem was in the non-giant half giants.(which is either human or doesn't actually exist) Either way I don't see that you've made any point at all. No offense. P.S. Yes, everything in DnD has a place in Eberron.
Save-vs-DM 04-19-07, 04:25 AM	Let's see what I can answer: Problem One: Remember that half-giants are only half giant, and that Sarlona is a rather psionically active continent. It's quite possible that the half-giants picked up some psionic potential down through the ages simply by virtue of long exposure to the areas of Sarlona. Remember, the giants journeyed to Sarlona a long, long time ago - long enough for the half-giants to significantly change themselves over time. Problem Two: As to the spell-like abilities, they picked up some magic blood from the ogre mage. However, look at where they are - it's a cold and hostile place for most accounts. It would make sense that over the long centuries, their innate magic warped and changed to suit their situation. Problem Three: Ogre Mage's are highly magical, while half-giants are barely psionic. It's quite possible that the magical power of the ogre mage blood simply overwhelmed the delicate balance of psionic power inherent in the half-giant blood. As to the favored class, again, look at where they evolved. It was a harsh landscape, and only those who could live off the land really thrived. Thus over time they evolved to make natural rangers, and the skills come more naturally to them than others. Problem Four: For as long as I can remember, Ogre Mage's have always been depicted with Longbows. It has almost become a feature of the race. They are proficient with longbows, as they use them in their stat blocks. This feature is more than likely simply a nod to the Ogre Mage. Also, in a harsh environment, being able to use a longbow to hunt game is a huge advantage, as bows are simple to make (especially compared to crossbows). Hope that sheds some light on things. Cheers, Save vs DM
Romulus LoneWolf 04-19-07, 06:54 AM	Here's how I'd explain Half-Giants: They're the result of a breeding experiment by some Giants to try and create a counter-psionic subrace to battle the Quori. Unfortunetly, it came too late, and the resulting race was released into the wild, as it were.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-19-07, 07:13 AM	Also remember the theory of giant blood degeneration. It is said that some curse on the giants has caused them to devolve with each generation, which may be why half-giants are so short (being full-blooded giants, but weakened over the years). Thus, when the half-giant blood is passed to eneko, it became weaker still. So much so, that over the generations all natural psionic potential was lost. Based on that, this is really more a case of 2+2=3.
Bluebrush 04-19-07, 10:50 AM	1) Are there half-giants in Eberron? And none of this "everything in DnD is there". Is there documentation of half giants in any of the Eberron books?In addition to the Sarlonans, there's also a bunch of them camped outside Stormreach.
Shady314 04-19-07, 09:16 PM	Okay, when I saw the background for the Eneko race, I closed the book, walked to my computer, and printed up a character sheet. Then I looked at the crunch, and my first thought was "2+2 = 5?!" Why? Let's go over it. Eneko are the children of Half-Giants and Ogre Mages. Problem number one: The Half-Giants are supposed to be decended from the Giants of Xen'drik... but they're psionic, and the Giants of Xen'drik are arcane... -why- are half-giants psionic in ebberon? Problem number two: The Eneko gains spell-like abilities, while I can't disclose what they are, they are NOT on the spell-like abilities list of either Half-Giants or Ogre Mages. Problem number three: Steming exactly from problem number one, Eneko are not psionic, nor do they have a favored psionic class, if they're half half-giant then they should they be naturally psionic. Problem number four: Eneko gain Martial Weapon Profiency(Longbow) as a bonus feat, perhaps I didn't scan through the Syrkarn section too much. Which I admit I only skimmed through since I just got the book a few days ago. So.... can anyone make sense of all this? Or are the Enerko just a flavor dipped ball of non-sensible crunch? Yes everything about the enko sucks from a flavor perspective. I don't use them. I mean really. Ogre mages and half giants were so abundant and frisky they started a whole new race. Just because they're both of the giant type apparently. :rolleyes: Is an Ogre Mage really appealing to a half-giant? I guess the answer lies in their ability to change shape. That's love isn't it? Honey would you mind never ever EVER loking like yourself? :) Thanks. I love that there were all these giant EXPLORERS around to make half-giants a viable race. Not settlers or refugees which would make sense but explorers?! Could we at least get a half thought out explanation that isn't insulting? I mean seriously. I'd rather go the magical experimentation route for the umpteenth time. Maybe some postulation ogre mages have some connection to the giants of Xendrik?! Then we'd be getting some where. Can every giant create viable offspring with any other giant? And if so why? Could we get some hill giants and frost giants together and get ANOTHER dumb-ass half-race? Must every other new race be half-some other race? Even if one of those races already is a HALF-giant? Hmmmm what new race should half-elves and half-orcs make when combined? These are the questions that need answering. Humanity+all the psionic races of the XPH+Ogre mages+Shifters+Changelings wasn't enough variety for Sarlona? We needed something really wacky? Anyways... 1) This is the only part I don't really mind. It's a mystery of Eberron for the DM to figure out. Does it tie into the giant cataclysm/curse? Does it have to do with Sarlona's affinity for psionics? etc. 2) Eneko are ridiculous. But you can't account for magic. Apparently half-giant blood and ogre mage blood manifest in unusual ways. 3) They just take after the ogre mage side more than their half-giant side. No big deal there. 4) It makes as little sense as Aerenal elves getting longbow proficiency. You just kind of accept the race as a whole or you don't. I obviously don't. You could say it has something to do with them as a whole getting some martial training to defend Syrkarn from what is probably seen as an inevitable assault by Riedra and or learning to hunt in Syrkarn. Isn't Syrkarn mostly lowland? grassland type terrain? Perfect for archery.
ornitholestes 04-19-07, 09:36 PM	Magic and psionics are spiritual and supernatural powers, nothing says the have to follow the consistent and repeatable rules that characterize science (in fact the word supernatural implies that it doesn't). A half giant doesn't necesarily need a combination of human and giant traits, after all sulphur, bat guano, plus a few words and gestures can create a giant ball fire. hat said, even in the real world of science and genetics the whole is often different then the parts that compose it. Take a liger (for example) it grows larger then its tiger and lion parents, it does not reach a size intermediate between the two. Things can react in odd and unexpected ways. As for the longbow proficiency, I don't have my book with my but I believe that Eneko have a culture of their own. If this is the case, that culture may simply like archery and consider practice with a bow a fundamental part of their education. A free weapon proficiency is more a cultural consideration then a genetic one.
Nuclear_Buddha 04-20-07, 02:42 PM	I guess the answer lies in their ability to change shape. That's love isn't it? Honey would you mind never ever EVER loking like yourself? :) Thanks. People can only find love with someone who looks like themselves? Is this what you're saying? Anyway, making sense of fantasy "genetics" only leads to a headache.
Shady314 04-20-07, 05:32 PM	People can only find love with someone who looks like themselves? Is this what you're saying? God no! I'd never date myself. :rolleyes: I'm not sure if you're just being facetious or serious but of course physical attraction plays a role in sexual relations. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous and I won't engage in an such an asinine debate. Could there be a FEW ogremage half-giant relationships of pure love despite appearance in the world? Sure. I could buy that. It's even kind of interesting. Capable of creating viable genetically healthy offspring that is a brand new race... eh. So many they become a true breeding race? Now my suspension of disbelief is broken. So I theorized the explanation may involve liberal use of change shape by ogres. Of course using that is a whole nother bag o' worms and was only semi serious since I don't see anyone being happy with a partner that wants them to look like someone else all the time. Anyway, making sense of fantasy "genetics" only leads to a headache. Sure and I don't assume there is even evolution in fantasy worlds but at a certain point having a half-everything breaks the suspension of disbelief. I use half-races sparingly and try to have some sort of thought out back story/mystery too it. The half-elves of Khorvaire = brilliant half-race. The Eneko= crappy nonsensical half race in some sort of desperate attempt to give Syrkarn flavor it already has. Which is why I speculated if it had to do with them sharing the giant type and if so do all giants share some sort of lineage to the Giants of Xendrik. A fair question and one of the only interesting aspects to the Eneko. So yes I don't expect everything to make perfect sense in a fantasy world but that doesn't mean I just throw up my hands and allow everything including the kitchen sink.
The Dreaming Duck 04-21-07, 09:07 PM	A few points. 1. Eneko are not simply half-ogre mage, half half-giant. They are a true-breeding race descended from half-giants and ogres. Some believe that their innate spell-like abilities reflect ogre mage heritage, but if you check page 109 of SoS, they are specifically described as having ogre blood, not ogre mage blood. 2. Half-giants are naturally psionic. Eneko aren't. So what? They're a hybrid race and that aspect of the parent race didn't breed true. SoS itself says that the half-giants are "baffling" and that there's no commonly accepted explanation for their ancestry. People can't even agree as to whether they are degenerate giants affected by a curse or if they crossbred with other races. 3. Personally - and it's just me - my read of the race is that it's NOT supposed to be like a half-orc or half-elf; it's more like a shifter or a changeling. It's HISTORY is based on a hybrid crossing, but it's not where they come from today; it might take multiple generations of ogre/half-giant breeding to produce a new eneko. As such, the racial traits of the eneko are a reflection of its culture as much as is physiology. Note the Knowledge (nature) description of the eneko on page 85 - "The eneko carry a mix of ogre and half-giant blood, but have long since become a distinct race that breeds true." 4. Proficiency: longbow ties into that culture. Skimming through the Syrkarn section, I noticed that one of the primary deities of the eneko is "Banor the Bowhunter"; that most of the inhabitants of the region are herders or hunters; and that the hunter takes great pride in "the shot that brings a bison down." This isn't a biological trait; it's a cultural trait, reflecting the fact that the eneko are raised as nomadic hunters. 5. As far as I can tell, the spell-like abilities of the eneko AREN'T said to be directly related to either ogre mage (as they may not even have ogre mage blood) or half-giant. They are a unique aspect of this true-breeding race. Both are traits that are exceedingly useful for a hunter/nomad in a harsh environment. Perhaps it's the result of a wild zone; perhaps it's the influence of the Sykarn rajah; perhaps it's the same power that gives the half-giants their psionic abilities (remember, that's also a mystery) and the ogre mages THEIR unique abilities. Remember that this is a world where magic CAN spontaneously work its way into a species. The pure dragonmarks are hereditary NOW... but four thousand years ago, there were no dragonmarks. So this is hardly the first time a bloodline has developed unique, hereditary magical abilities. Perhaps there were once eneko that didn't possess these abilities - but the magical eneko supplanted them. Another thing to consider is that there may very well have been a longer explanation for the eneko that got cut for space. We've already seen a number of web expansions for SoS posted online. With all that said, I'm NOT a fan of new races. I see no need for the eneko. But if you want to use them, I don't see their traits as being as illogical as the OP does.
Nived 04-21-07, 10:12 PM	Just to make a point. Yeah Half Giants are well documented in Eberron. Actually they're probably the best documented non core non Eberron race in Eberron. They're in Secrets of Xen'drik (complete with stats) in Stormreach and Dal Quat. They're in The Player's Guide to Eberron mentioning their existance along with the other Psionic races. And it seems they're in Secrets of Sarlona (which I still have not seen anywhere in my area!) Which would make Half Giants second only to Drow in Non PHB ECS race support.
Nuclear_Buddha 04-21-07, 11:09 PM	God no! I'd never date myself. :rolleyes: I'm not sure if you're just being facetious or serious but of course physical attraction plays a role in sexual relations. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous and I won't engage in an such an asinine debate. I was being facetious, actually, as the original comment deserved. Physical attraction absolutely plays a role. However, people aren't automatically attracted to someone of their own race.
Shady314 04-22-07, 04:11 AM	A few points. 1. Eneko are not simply half-ogre mage, half half-giant. They are a true-breeding race descended from half-giants and ogres. Some believe that their innate spell-like abilities reflect ogre mage heritage, but if you check page 109 of SoS, they are specifically described as having ogre blood, not ogre mage blood. 1. Nice catch. I missed that. But really that makes even less sense. Unless I missed it Ogres are the same dumb brutes in Eberron they are in standard DnD. Right? And now we don't even have the change shape explanation. 2. Half-giants are naturally psionic. Eneko aren't. So what? I'll admit I'm not a master of crunch and I don't own many DnD books outside the Eberron line. But don't pretty much every half race just get pared down or mixed abilities from their parent races? And before you argue they're a true-breeding race more on par with shifters and changelings even they still get the abilties of their monstrous forebears. Shifters are said to be descendants of lycanthropes. They don't cast enchantment spells or anything. They get feral shifting abilities. Changelings get shapechanging abilities from their doppelganger heritage. Kalashtar are fused with beings from Dal Quor. They get psionic potential. Usually there's some sort of logical consistency too it. 3. Personally - and it's just me - my read of the race is that it's NOT supposed to be like a half-orc or half-elf; it's more like a shifter or a changeling. Right and they get some bonuses you'd expect. Others are just a bit more headscratching. And I agree with you they're more like Shifters and Changelings but even those races current abilities are tied into the abilities of their ancestors. See above. Also how do you get regular humans to mate with a lot of doppelgangers and lycanthropes? Easy. They look like humans. How do you get a lot of ogres and half-giants to get it on? That I just can't figure out. Ogre-magi can shapechange but just regular old ogres??? This is really the deal breaker for me personally. :) If someone could come up with an explanation besides alcohol ;) I'd like the Eneko much more. 4. Proficiency: longbow ties into that culture. Skimming through the Syrkarn section, I noticed that one of the primary deities of the eneko is "Banor the Bowhunter"; that most of the inhabitants of the region are herders or hunters; and that the hunter takes great pride in "the shot that brings a bison down." This isn't a biological trait; it's a cultural trait, reflecting the fact that the eneko are raised as nomadic hunters. Yeah agreed. This part is no big deal. 5. As far as I can tell, the spell-like abilities of the eneko AREN'T said to be directly related to either ogre mage (as they may not even have ogre mage blood) or half-giant. They are a unique aspect of this true-breeding race. Both are traits that are exceedingly useful for a hunter/nomad in a harsh environment. Perhaps it's the result of a wild zone; perhaps it's the influence of the Sykarn rajah; perhaps it's the same power that gives the half-giants their psionic abilities (remember, that's also a mystery) and the ogre mages THEIR unique abilities. Remember that this is a world where magic CAN spontaneously work its way into a species. The pure dragonmarks are hereditary NOW... but four thousand years ago, there were no dragonmarks. So this is hardly the first time a bloodline has developed unique, hereditary magical abilities. Perhaps there were once eneko that didn't possess these abilities - but the magical eneko supplanted them. :clap: HEHE Now that's how you start to make a stupid race interesting. :) Another thing to consider is that there may very well have been a longer explanation for the eneko that got cut for space. We've already seen a number of web expansions for SoS posted online. Sure but that's no excuse. We can't operate on what might have been. Only what we got so far. With all that said, I'm NOT a fan of new races. I see no need for the eneko. But if you want to use them, I don't see their traits as being as illogical as the OP does. Agreed. With the exception of their spell like abilities and ancestry.
Shady314 04-22-07, 04:16 AM	I was being facetious, actually, as the original comment deserved. Thought so but it's so hard to be sure online. :) Physical attraction absolutely plays a role. However, people aren't automatically attracted to someone of their own race. Sure but the vast majority are turned off by someone not of their species :) .... but hmmm are Ogres and Half-Giants the same species?
Perun 04-22-07, 06:33 AM	1. Nice catch. I missed that. But really that makes even less sense. Unless I missed it Ogres are the same dumb brutes in Eberron they are in standard DnD. Right? And now we don't even have the change shape explanation. I'll admit I'm not a master of crunch and I don't own many DnD books outside the Eberron line. But don't pretty much every half race just get pared down or mixed abilities from their parent races? And before you argue they're a true-breeding race more on par with shifters and changelings even they still get the abilties of their monstrous forebears. Shifters are said to be descendants of lycanthropes. They don't cast enchantment spells or anything. They get feral shifting abilities. Changelings get shapechanging abilities from their doppelganger heritage. Kalashtar are fused with beings from Dal Quor. They get psionic potential. Usually there's some sort of logical consistency too it. <snip> But we do have the giant racial degeneration thing. Perhaps the ogres of the ages past looked more appealing than their modern-day descendants. Perhaps they were just tall, beautiful creatures with spell-like abilities that we don't know anything about. Maybe modern day ogres and ogre mages were once a single race, whose degeneration lead them to splitting in two distinct races. Perhaps the eneko ancestros were actually a third branch of ancient ogres, whose degeneration manifested as a reduction in size, making them smaller. If they were physically similar to humans (most giants are, size and/or skin being the most striking differences), only, say, stronger and more suited to life in the colder climates, I could see a group of human "adopting" them and letting their daughters marry these strong men, in hopes their children will take after their fathers and make for stonger warriors... Mind you, I don't have the SoS yet, so I'm just making this stuff up as I'm typing, and it's quite possible (even likely) it doesn't fit in with the whole established lore on Sarlona, eneko, and giants. And if that's the case, I appologise, and feel free to ignore my post ;) Regards.
Nuclear_Buddha 04-22-07, 02:23 PM	Sure but the vast majority are turned off by someone not of their species :) .... but hmmm are Ogres and Half-Giants the same species? They both have the giant type, which close enough for D&D, I'm sure. I look at it like this: if it's a case of the two races living in close proximity, the males larger (in this case orges) are going to have their way with the females of the smaller. I'm not sure that's a matter of being turned on or off, so to speak. If it's an exploration-type situation, with half-giants travelling to Sarlona, the majority of explorers historically have been male (D&D's equality of the sexes aside), and are going to find female comfort wherever they end up out of pure desperation. For the record, I'm not a big fan of the eneko myself either. I don't like the name so much and I've little use for PC races with a level adjustment. All I'm saying is that the idea isn't particularly far-fetched.
Wizardman 04-23-07, 01:14 AM	4) It makes as little sense as Aerenal elves getting longbow proficiency. At the risk of diverting the thread: that one makes perfect sense to me. They are the descendants of slaves, and this fact has permeated all aspects of their culture. Take the Undying. They were "born" as an attempt to make sure that no more of their people died, because they lost far too many fleeing their oppressors. An armed populace is and has always been more difficult to conquer than an unarmed populace. While the forebears of the Valenari were the ones that really ran with that lesson, the forebears of the Aereni did not forget it. Between their enslavement and the effect it had on their culture, and the periodic dragon attacks (which are almost certainly quite bloody), there is no chance that the Aereni will stop their mandatory self-defence training. Weapons training is so ingrained in elf culture that the elves of Khorvaire still practice it (though unless they are well-educated or connected to the Houses of Shadow, they probably don't know why besides the fact that it is a custom). The Aereni won't all be mages. They won't even all be warriors. They will all be able to effectively raise sword and bow in their own defense if they must.
Shady314 04-23-07, 04:18 AM	At the risk of diverting the thread: that one makes perfect sense to me. :rolleyes: Before you divert the thread further I wasn't saying the eneko and the elves longbow proficiency both make NO sense. I was saying they both make the SAME AMOUNT of sense in that neither has a particularly martial culture like say the Valenar but there are plenty of arguments and reasons any race may have cultural proficiency with a weapon. I was trying to say the OP might as well start a thread arguing about any cultural weapon proficiency. Hope that clears it up. @ Perun: Those are all nice ideas. :) I hinted at something like that when I mused that perhaps all giants share some sort of link to the Giants of Xendrik. I don't think it'd hold up to scrutiny but at least it's an attempt to flavor up an otherwise boring new race. But regardless those are still just ideas/theories etc. made up by us board members. SoS has little interesting to say about the Eneko. Which left me feeling there was little thought and emotion put into their creation. Perhaps DD is right and there was some editing that took place. @ Nuclear Buddha: What may be good enough for DnD won't cut it for me. If we accept that then trolls and half-giants are the same species. Could you honestly imagine a male half-giant no matter how desperate going for a troll? And anything come of the coupling in the way of offspring? Enjoy that mental image. :devil: If it was a matter of force I'd expect there to be some mention of past or current bad blood between the groups or something. The larger men have to actually find the smaller women desireable too ya know. Who says an ogre is any more attracted to a half-giant woman than a half-giant man is attracted to an ogre? It's not like they'd be desperate for ogre women. Was there a shortage? Still this is probably the most likely explanation... the usual half-orc explanation. It doesn't do a very good job explaining how there could have ended up being so many they became a true breeding race though. Not a bad theory but there's two problems. 1) As you even bring up. In DnD there is no sexism and there are just as many or at least as capable female explorers as there are men. Lhazaar was a woman wasn't she? Aeren as well and she led the exodus to Aerenal. You could decide the Giant Empire was sexist but we're never going to read that in canon. You can say just ignore this facet of DnD for the sake of your argument but it's too important to be ignored if we're trying to come up with theories that make sense within the setting. 2) I think an utterly desperate half-giant male would fight other half-giant men for the few women (and we know there must have been some women, there are tribes of half-giants in Sarlona. That requires more than just a handful of female explorers) or find a human more attractive and more easily subdued. :) I don't think many people actually like them. I have to disagree though. They are far-fetched. Not off the charts weird mind-boggling or anything. But they stretch credulity too far. Just to be clear when you say Ogre I imagine this. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG199.jpg And when I think half-giant I think of Sandharrow. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80448.jpg Just in case we might have different images in our head when contemplating these two groups getting it on frequently.
Nuclear_Buddha 04-23-07, 10:40 AM	Not a bad theory but there's two problems. 1) As you even bring up. In DnD there is no sexism and there are just as many or at least as capable female explorers as there are men. Lhazaar was a woman wasn't she? Aeren as well and she led the exodus to Aerenal. You could decide the Giant Empire was sexist but we're never going to read that in canon. You can say just ignore this facet of DnD for the sake of your argument but it's too important to be ignored if we're trying to come up with theories that make sense within the setting. 2) I think an utterly desperate half-giant male would fight other half-giant men for the few women (and we know there must have been some women, there are tribes of half-giants in Sarlona. That requires more than just a handful of female explorers) or find a human more attractive and more easily subdued. Just to be clear when you say Ogre I imagine this. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG199.jpg And when I think half-giant I think of Sandharrow. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80448.jpg Just in case we might have different images in our head when contemplating these two groups getting it on frequently. 1) The lack of sexism in D&D is meta. By this I mean that while it's a fact of the world, and will be supported by examples of female leaders (Aeren, Lhazaar, Mishann, etc.), it is still imposed on the world by the creators and writers. And frequently they themselves forget (Aeren's retcon into manhood). Therefore I stick by my male explorer population theory. 2) The idea of the crew fighting for the one woman of their own race until just one man and one woman are left is preposterous. There are going to be those who, due to fear or loyalty, aren't going to knife their fellow explorers for a mate. They're going to look elsewhere. Also, while a human might be easier to handle, the big strong orge is going to have big strong children. I'm just saying that there are other ways to think about mate selection. Same images I had, actually, though for extra horror value you can use the lineup image of the half-giant (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80443.jpg). Again, it's not the most pleasant of concepts, but hybrids are another D&D trope, and it fits with my general threory that the desperate will do just about anything.
The Dreaming Duck 04-23-07, 11:11 AM	Just to be clear when you say Ogre I imagine this. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG199.jpg And when I think half-giant I think of Sandharrow. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80448.jpg And I think those are flawed images when it comes to Sarlona. Sandharrow is clearly the product of a sophisticated culture. He's wearing metal armor and carrying a sword (two even). But the half-giants of Sykarn have never formed a true nation. There's never been a vast number of them. They've never posed a threat to the Inspired. As rootless nomads with no history of civilization, it's unlikely that they'd have smithing techniques or anything like that. Meanwhile, the ogre in your image is clearly a savage. He's (barely) dressed in skin and bones and carrying a wooden club. But the ogres of Borunan WEREN'T savages. Borunan was a proud nation with a long martial history. So reverse your images. Imagine that the ogre is a blacksmith. He's the one wearing fine armor and carrying a beautiful sword, and Sandharrow is wearing skin and bones. However, the ogre is a refugee driven from his homeland, while the half-giants at least have tribes and know how to find food in Syrkarn. The half-giants are impressed by this stranger, who possesses such impressive goods, a martial demeanor, and great strength, and they take him in. He uses his strength to aid the tribe, helping them fight a neighboring tribe. In time, he teaches them the craft of smithing, giving them a huge advantage over the other tribes. Despite his strange appearance, the tribe comes to see him as a great gift. Perhaps someone comes to love him; perhaps the leaders believe that they HAVE to spread his seed among as many members of the tribe as possible, in the hopes that the children will inherit his strength. Perhaps they do; perhaps they don't. Most likely, they look just like half-giants, but they now that the seed of ogre blood in them. When they or their descendents encounter others from similar lineage down the road, eventually THEY produce the eneko. Ogres, by and large, aren't very bright or attractive; -4 to Int and Cha. But an exceptional ogre can still end up with reasonable values in either or both. And even with an Intelligence of 6, an ogre expert with enough levels, Skill Focus, etc can still be a great craftsman. We know that Borunan was a proud martial nation. That image from the MM may be fine for the typical ogre of Droaam; but I doubt it fits the typical ogre of Borunan, then or now, and it certainly doesn't take into account the context in which the two species would come together. Would they meet in a singles bar and say "Hey baby, how about a one night stand?" I doubt it. But if the ogre brings something to the tribe, if they come to value him, they might set aside his fearsome appearance. They might not relish it, but "lie back and think of Syrkarn." Beyond that, another important thing is that we live in a world where there's only one intelligent species capable of communication with humans... and that's humans. Eberron is a world FILLED with intelligent humanoids. That's going to have a psychological impact. That ogre may look frightful to us, but if you're a merchant who spends much of your life in Borunan, it's pretty normal. Look to the Shadow Marches. Take a look at this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG203.jpg); are you going to invite it into your bed? And yet humans and orcs did join together. According to the PGtE, half-orcs are celebrated as a bridge between the races; I seem to recall something somewhere about the Gatekeeper druids believe that hybrids are often stronger in nature, and encouraging the pairings. We don't know how quickly it occured. It may have been CENTURIES before the first human-orc pairing happened. If so, by that point, the orc no longer looks frightful. You've spent your entire life around orcs. You may have had an orc nanny when you were a child. They aren't strange to you; they're a part of everyday life. And you may be able to see beauty in something we see as alien. Today, House Tharashk is built around that alliance. I would imagine the typical Thrane looks at a human-orc relationship with shock and disgust. But for the Marcher, it's normal, and it's the shallow people of the Five Nations who can't understand their relationships. I'd expect these things to take time. But we have time. There's no rush for these things to occur in a single generation. And over time, familiarity can overcome many things.
The Dreaming Duck 04-23-07, 11:14 AM	Same images I had, actually, though for extra horror value you can use the lineup image of the half-giant (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80443.jpg). Yeah, it is a little easier pairing that with the ogre than Sandharrow.
Shady314 04-23-07, 04:36 PM	1) The lack of sexism in D&D is meta. By this I mean that while it's a fact of the world, and will be supported by examples of female leaders (Aeren, Lhazaar, Mishann, etc.), it is still imposed on the world by the creators and writers. And frequently they themselves forget (Aeren's retcon into manhood). Therefore I stick by my male explorer population theory. ? Meta just means it's out of game information. It still affects the gameworld inside it just like class and levels do. You can't just ignore it. And it's never imposed on the gameworld except by accident as you pointed out. 2) The idea of the crew fighting for the one woman of their own race until just one man and one woman are left is preposterous. There are going to be those who, due to fear or loyalty, aren't going to knife their fellow explorers for a mate. They're going to look elsewhere. So one minute you say this and then the next... that the desperate will do just about anything. Make up your mind. :rolleyes: People in NON-desperate situations have killed for women. And if we must stick to the explorer stereotype these will be rough and tumble men that won't shy away from violence. Also, while a human might be easier to handle, the big strong orge is going to have big strong children. I'm just saying that there are other ways to think about mate selection. 1) Those first ogres didn't actually KNOW there'd be offspring. How could they know they were compatible until after they tried? 2) I realize there's more to mate selection than beauty. Especially in extreme situations. But there had to be some number of half-giants of both sexes for them to continue to persist on Sarlona today so where's the utter desperation coming from? And why is an Ogre looking to mate with a half-giant when there are ogres around? Same images I had, actually, though for extra horror value you can use the lineup image of the half-giant (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80443.jpg). Ok we'll use that image instead. It's still basically an oversized human. There's a little odd proportioning but it doesn't approach the monstrous appearance of an ogre.
Shady314 04-23-07, 05:05 PM	And I think those are flawed images when it comes to Sarlona. Sandharrow is clearly the product of a sophisticated culture. He's wearing metal armor and carrying a sword (two even). Oh are we assuming he bought them? I always assumed he took them off dead enemies. He seemed like that kind of guy. :) But the half-giants of Sykarn have never formed a true nation. There's never been a vast number of them. They've never posed a threat to the Inspired. As rootless nomads with no history of civilization, it's unlikely that they'd have smithing techniques or anything like that. Perhaps but they are still the descendants of Xendrik. They could have kept some knowledge passed down. If we stick with them being explorers those are people very likely to have very useful skills for survival including some crafting ability. Still it's a good point. Meanwhile, the ogre in your image is clearly a savage. He's (barely) dressed in skin and bones and carrying a wooden club. But the ogres of Borunan WEREN'T savages. Borunan was a proud nation with a long martial history. You know it really wasn't the skin and bones that I think would turn a half-giant off. You could get a hot looking human barbarian in the same get-up that human women might throw themselves at. I bet to some Ogre lasses he's gorgeous regardless of apparel. :) It was more the physical appearance. So reverse your images. Imagine that the ogre is a blacksmith. He's the one wearing fine armor and carrying a beautiful sword, and Sandharrow is wearing skin and bones. However, the ogre is a refugee driven from his homeland, while the half-giants at least have tribes and know how to find food in Syrkarn. The half-giants are impressed by this stranger, who possesses such impressive goods, a martial demeanor, and great strength, and they take him in. He uses his strength to aid the tribe, helping them fight a neighboring tribe. In time, he teaches them the craft of smithing, giving them a huge advantage over the other tribes. Despite his strange appearance, the tribe comes to see him as a great gift. Perhaps someone comes to love him; perhaps the leaders believe that they HAVE to spread his seed among as many members of the tribe as possible, in the hopes that the children will inherit his strength. Perhaps they do; perhaps they don't. Most likely, they look just like half-giants, but they now that the seed of ogre blood in them. When they or their descendents encounter others from similar lineage down the road, eventually THEY produce the eneko. A wonderful story! (Sincerely) If only SoS had actually laid out something like that. Ogres, by and large, aren't very bright or attractive; -4 to Int and Cha. But an exceptional ogre can still end up with reasonable values in either or both. And even with an Intelligence of 6, an ogre expert with enough levels, Skill Focus, etc can still be a great craftsman. We know that Borunan was a proud martial nation. That image from the MM may be fine for the typical ogre of Droaam; but I doubt it fits the typical ogre of Borunan, then or now, and it certainly doesn't take into account the context in which the two species would come together. Would they meet in a singles bar and say "Hey baby, how about a one night stand?" I doubt it. But if the ogre brings something to the tribe, if they come to value him, they might set aside his fearsome appearance. They might not relish it, but "lie back and think of Syrkarn." Again great backstory. I wish SoS had bothered to come up with a decent explanation like this. But still none of this really explains where the SLA's come from. Beyond that, another important thing is that we live in a world where there's only one intelligent species capable of communication with humans... and that's humans. Eberron is a world FILLED with intelligent humanoids. That's going to have a psychological impact. That ogre may look frightful to us, but if you're a merchant who spends much of your life in Borunan, it's pretty normal. Look to the Shadow Marches. Take a look at this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG203.jpg); are you going to invite it into your bed? And yet humans and orcs did join together. According to the PGtE, half-orcs are celebrated as a bridge between the races; I seem to recall something somewhere about the Gatekeeper druids believe that hybrids are often stronger in nature, and encouraging the pairings. We don't know how quickly it occured. It may have been CENTURIES before the first human-orc pairing happened. If so, by that point, the orc no longer looks frightful. You've spent your entire life around orcs. You may have had an orc nanny when you were a child. They aren't strange to you; they're a part of everyday life. And you may be able to see beauty in something we see as alien. Today, House Tharashk is built around that alliance. I would imagine the typical Thrane looks at a human-orc relationship with shock and disgust. But for the Marcher, it's normal, and it's the shallow people of the Five Nations who can't understand their relationships. I knew the half-orcs would be brought up! :) And all great points. A few arguments though. 1) It clashes with your earlier arguments of successive generations producing the eneko because we know if you take an orc and a human you immediately get a half-orc. 2) The humans and orcs developed a symbiotic relationship. Humans provided brains and orcs the brawn. According to the ECS over time a FEW half-orcs were produced and since these couplings were encouraged and humans + half-orcs = half-orcs they managed to become a true breeding race. I don't know if an Eneko + a human = another Eneko? And were the couplings encouraged? Were Eneko seen as a huge boon to either group? SoS never says. Your idea did though. What does an Eneko have to offer mechanically an Ogre or Half-giant doesn't do as well or better? If so that'd explain it. I guess the point is it all comes down to flavor text. The Eneko got very little and come off shallow. The half-orcs got a very detailed history and come off interesting. 3) Orcs are ugly and dumb. Ogres are REALLY ugly and dumb. -2 vs -4 is pretty big. :) And they really are monstrous with the elongated limbs and hunched posture, the sloping brow etc. The biggest thing you need to get over about an orc is the nose. To get over an ogre means getting over pretty much everything. Basically I'm saying human+orc is a stretch but one I can wrap my mind around but half-giant + ogre goes a little too far for me personally with no flavor text to wash it down. I'd expect these things to take time. But we have time. There's no rush for these things to occur in a single generation. And over time, familiarity can overcome many things. All in all a great argument for the Eneko's creation but still weak on explaining where the SLA's come from.
The Dreaming Duck 04-23-07, 05:47 PM	Basically I'm saying human+orc is a stretch but one I can wrap my mind around but half-giant + ogre goes a little too far for me personally with no flavor text to wash it down If you use the XPH lineup picture instead of Sandharrow, it changes it for me. Sandharrow just looks like a big human. The XPH female half-giant has elongated limbs, a prominant brow, veins bursting along her arms, enormous ears - she's more hill giant than storm giant, if you ask me. She looks like Princess Fiona from Shrek. Of course, I'd still want the flavor text. I'm just saying that WITH the flavor text, I can imagine it. All in all a great argument for the Eneko's creation but still weak on explaining where the SLA's come from. The same place as the dragonmarks. Or the blink dog's ability to teleport. Or the basilisk's ability to petrify. Or the SLAs of the gnome. Magic is a part of nature in Eberron. Perhaps it was a convergence of Lammania and Fernia just as the first eneko was conceived. Perhaps it was exposure to a wild zone. Again, at some point a half-elf developed the first Mark of Storm, an ability none of his forbears had, and that neither human or elf could possess on their own. Obviously, these SLAs aren't dragonmarks. But the fact remains that magical gifts can appear in a species. For that matter, how did the first ogre mages gain their gifts? Were they always a different species, or did magic latent in ogre blood suddenly rise to the surface? If the latter, that same latent magic simply found a different expression in combination with the half-giant blood. Again, I'm not trying to defend the presentation of the eneko as they stand; I'm just saying how I'd explain them if forced to use them.
Shady314 04-23-07, 06:13 PM	If you use the XPH lineup picture instead of Sandharrow, it changes it for me. Sandharrow just looks like a big human. The XPH female half-giant has elongated limbs, a prominant brow, veins bursting along her arms, enormous ears - she's more hill giant than storm giant, if you ask me. She looks like Princess Fiona from Shrek. Of course, I'd still want the flavor text. I'm just saying that WITH the flavor text, I can imagine it. The half-giant in the lineup is uglier than Sandharrow but still basically an oversized human. Almost a very large dwarf actually. The Ogre of the MM, clothing aside, is bestial. The underbite and fangs sticking out, his mouth is almost a muzzle. His arms are almost as long as his body which gives him a more apelike posture. At least half-giants and orcs tend more to the humanoid appearance. Ogres push it. Oh and you do realize Princess Fiona is an ogre right? :) The same place as the dragonmarks. Oh a feat! ;) Or the progenitor wyrms? Or the blink dog's ability to teleport. Or the basilisk's ability to petrify. Or the SLAs of the gnome. Those races started off with them and as far as we know always had them. Every race that has it's origins in another race gains abilities related to those races. Not something entirely new. Unless we use the magical experiment explanation. The Eneko suddenly bucking that trend doesn't make them interesting it makes them stick out like a sore thumb. Magic is a part of nature in Eberron. Perhaps it was a convergence of Lammania and Fernia just as the first eneko was conceived. Ouch. Come on DD I know you can do better than this. :) Perhaps it was exposure to a wild zone. Again, at some point a half-elf developed the first Mark of Storm, an ability none of his forbears had, and that neither human or elf could possess on their own. But not ALL half-elves did now did they. :) And it cost a feat. And it made him VERY special. Why does it not make the Eneko very special? Obviously, these SLAs aren't dragonmarks. But the fact remains that magical gifts can appear in a species. Spontaneously across the entire race with no connection to any ability their forebears possessed? That's unprecedented. Dragonmarks came to a line of families that already had a talent for what their dragonmarks let them do. If we use this explanation the Eneko just got very unusual and very special. Which with their lack of flavor text makes very hard to believe. For that matter, how did the first ogre mages gain their gifts? Were they always a different species, or did magic latent in ogre blood suddenly rise to the surface? If the latter, that same latent magic simply found a different expression in combination with the half-giant blood. That's what I'm wondering actually. Do all giants share a link to Xendrik? Does this link mean there's latent magical potential in them all? Is it the source of a troll's regen? Again, I'm not trying to defend the presentation of the eneko as they stand; I'm just saying how I'd explain them if forced to use them. Oh I'm aware. And I think you're doing a fine job. I'm not arguing there's absolutely NOTHING to the Eneko and they're COMPLETE and utter garbage. I'm just enjoying the debate.
The Dreaming Duck 04-23-07, 08:04 PM	His arms are almost as long as his body which gives him a more apelike posture. The female half-giant's arms drop at least to her knees. In any case, my point is that you're taking the picture in the MM and assuming that's as good as they get. The base ogre mage has long arms, but a smaller head, and looks like he could choose to stand up straight if he wanted to. The MM Ogre is a beastie - but that doesn't rule out the existence of less bestial ogres. But as long as we're on the word "bestial", that brings us to... bestiality. In OUR world, people have sex with all kinds of things besides humans. Sure, this isn't common practice. It's not publically accepted. But people do it. True or not, we know the stories about Katherine the Great and her horses... and any number of science fiction or fantasy books and shows have posited relationships between humans and other species, from the rishathra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishathra) of Ringworld to Brust's Dragaeran brothels. And when it comes to intelligent humanoid species, Eberron has far more in common with Ringworld than our world. Essentially, I find it hard to imagine that there wouldn't be SOME humanoids out there willing to have sex with just about anything. Personally, I prefer the story I described before - the hero earning the respect of the tribe over time, and them desiring to hold onto his strength, or something similar. But regardless, I don't think you need to rely on rape for intercourse to occur. In a world filled with sentients, I think there will always be some whose tastes DO deviate from the norms, who are eager to try new things. Shall we indulge in rishathra? Oh and you do realize Princess Fiona is an ogre right? :) Absolutely. And yet, that's what the female half-giant looks like to me. So if you go that route, maybe she looks hot to the ogre. Have we ever seen a female ogre in D&D? Those races started off with them and as far as we know always had them. Every race that has it's origins in another race gains abilities related to those races. Not something entirely new. Every race? I disagree. What about the ogre mage? To the best of my knowledge, we have no clear explanation for the origins of the ogre mage's SLAs. All we know is that it's a "cousin" of the ogre. What else do we know? That the eneko is described as being of OGRE and half-giant ancestry - not ogre mage/eneko - and yet, their skin has a green tint, and some have vestigal horns. Some eneko believe this is a sign of ogre mage ancestry, but what if the reverse is true? The magic that produced the ogre mage lies in the bloodline of the OGRES. The eneko manifest a tiny fraction of this - not enough to become full fledged ogre mages, but enough to develop their own unique SLAs - and as a result get a tiny fraction of the physical traits associated with the ogre mage. They don't have OM ancestry; their powers are nothing like the OM. But the OM is derived from the ogre - and there is magic in ogre blood, waiting to find unique expression when combined with the blood of other races. Come on DD I know you can do better than this. :) Well, let's hear YOUR explanation! At least I'm trying. ;) Spontaneously across the entire race... What makes you assume this is the case? The eneko are a VERY young race. They've been around less than two thousand years. Syrkarn isn't the gentlest environment. Hence, you've got an EXCELLENT basis for IMMEDIATE natural selection. Once there were only four eneko. Two of them had SLAs. The other two didn't. They get caught out in a dust storm, and the ones with endure elements survive. Or a hunt goes sour, and pass with out trace is the only thing that saves them from a predator. By the time half-elves developed their dragonmarks, half-elves were spread across Khorvaire. But the eneko don't have the history or numbers - so it's quite possible that it is, essentially, a magical mutation. As for the traits having no connection to their forbears, again, the abilities to polymorph, fly, and turn invisible have nothing to do with ogres - and yet ogre mages can do all these things. So eneko, drawing from the same genetic pool, developed far weaker magical powers. It's still all traced back to the innate power that lies dormant in the ogre. And frankly, THAT makes the ogres far more interesting as a race. What if EVERY ogre hybrid possesses different SLAs? What happens when you cross an enlarged human and an ogre? What about an enlarged shifter and an ogre? And so on, and so on? Though the ogres can never manifest these powers themselves, they could hold the seeds for dozens of magical races, if anyone is willing to try. (I now see a whole campaign based around Mordain the Fleshweaver working to isolate this hidden magic in ogre blood, and creating monsters by infusing other humanoids with "ogric" energy...) That's what I'm wondering actually. Do all giants share a link to Xendrik? Does this link mean there's latent magical potential in them all? Is it the source of a troll's regen? Maybe. Or maybe the troll is descended from ogres... And I think you're doing a fine job. I'm not arguing there's absolutely NOTHING to the Eneko and they're COMPLETE and utter garbage. I'm just enjoying the debate. Likewise. I don't think there's much to the eneko; they could have used half-giants, goliaths, or just plain normal ogres to fill the same role. But I still wonder if there WAS more flavor that got cut. My point is that I can see the story I'd tell - and the utter lack of flavor makes me wonder if the writer never had the chance to tell his story.
Belabras 04-23-07, 09:10 PM	Great job DD. I really like how you've laid it out.
Perun 04-24-07, 01:34 AM	Just to be clear when you say Ogre I imagine this. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG199.jpg Just in case we might have different images in our head when contemplating these two groups getting it on frequently. Well, I prefer my ogres looking like this (http://www.pluca.it/ImmaginiRazze/ogre.gif). It's Tony DiTerlizzi's picture of an ogre from the 2e AD&D Monstrous Manual (although it's used as an image for half-ogre on the site I link to). I never cared for the 3e ape/hyena crossbreed that's supposed to represent the ogre (yes, I know it's the official representation repeated a number of times in various products, but I still don't like it).
Nuclear_Buddha 04-24-07, 01:25 PM	"lie back and think of Syrkarn." You win the thread.
Just another user 04-24-07, 03:17 PM	I'd like to add, what to you know what an half-giant or a giant find attractive, maybe for them the ogre is the equivalent of the (wild) elves for humans. I'm sure that in this precise moment in an alternate universe an ogre is positing on their equivalent of the D&D message board saying "The half elf really baffle me. How can two races differents as humans and elves ever breed? Or even want to, they are so **UGLY**!!" :D