Post/Author/DateTime	Post
otakuwolf 06-06-07, 04:57 PM	can anyone think of a reason not all changelings and shifters should take warshaper?
nightside_samurai 06-06-07, 05:14 PM	For the same reason that not every person is a Lawyer. It's boring and not conducive to an individualist society.
Vharuck 06-06-07, 06:22 PM	Because we're not shifters or changelings. We're players. We read the books. I doubt these shifters and changelings can sit there, look over the empirical rules and statistics of every adventuring career path, and find the most "1337 build." In other words, roleplaying.
Encard 06-06-07, 08:25 PM	Most spellcasters would prefer to stick with their casting class. A number of other builds don't have room for that. In-game... I doubt it's as easy as saying, "Hey, I want to be a warshaper!" Plenty of shifters and changelings probably don't have quite the right mindset or physical potential - just because out-of-game anyone has the potential to take the class doesn't mean that the same is true in-game. As Vharuck said... roleplaying.
Syltorian 06-06-07, 08:43 PM	In other words, roleplaying. Exactly. Sometimes, the flavour you want your character to have just does not match the best possible combination of feats and classes. A changeling might have his disguise to fit in, life live to the fullest (and frequent balls and dinners in the forms of others), work in the theatre, hide, cheat, or work in a dream parlour without ever needing to become martial and raise a hand against anyone. A shifter might prefer to be good at running, climbing, sniffing things out, seeing things, flying, talking to animals... without necessarily wanting to tear things apart. He might even want to overcome the social prejudice of "they rip into people; that's all they can do", by showing how nice a person he really is.
gensuke626 06-06-07, 09:13 PM	Umm...because Recaster > Warshaper? oh...And Roleplaying! yeah...no...the second point is the most important...:D
Darakhoranon 06-07-07, 05:26 PM	Well, I´m not the "get the strongest build"-type of person, but I can understand your arguement, gensuke626. Warshaper is a useful (maybe even strong) class, if you want to achieve a specific goal, but that depens on this goal - and YOUR definition of "strongest build". But the main reason for shifters and changelings for NOT taking Warshaper at the first opportunity is probably the fact that it makes no sense from a roleplaying point of view - Syltorian offered some good examples.
Loki5654 06-07-07, 05:51 PM	can anyone think of a reason not all changelings and shifters should take warshaper? 1. They don't have enough class levels? 2. The class levels they do have are NPC classes and they don't qualify for the PrC? 3. They can't find an existing Warshaper to train them? 4. The existing Warshapers are picky about who they train? 5. The DM says they don't? Ooh! Ooh! I'm sticking with Number 5.:D
Edymnion 06-07-07, 09:58 PM	can anyone think of a reason not all changelings and shifters should take warshaper?Because the DM had enough sense to say "Changelings and Shifters do not qualify for this PrC by virtue of their shapeshifter subtype".
Pinky's brain 06-07-07, 10:11 PM	Assuming entry is allowed I would imagine most adventurers of those races who favor melee would try to gain entry in the prestige class (and it's existence would be well known amongst their race). Just like a lot of them would spend some time on their martial training, dipping fighter, use two handed weapons rather two weapon fighting and bows rather than crossbows (once they have a few levels under their build). Not ignoring the world as presented to you is also good roleplaying (you see flavor, I see internal inconsistency and metagaming).
Rechan 06-08-07, 04:43 PM	Probably because not every shifter or changeling wants to be an adventurer. Adventurers (I.e. those with PC claseses) are supposed to be rare in Eberron. In fact, doesn't only 8% of Sharn have PC classes to begin with?
JarHead031 06-08-07, 07:50 PM	Some may be a warshaper, but why would all of them? Just like examples that were made. Some people aren't built for it. Some personalities aren't built for the PrC. It's basically like asking, "why doesn't everybody take this job," or "why doesn't everybody work out," and many other questions you can ask. It just doesn't fit their physical or mental abilities, or the person is just turned off by it. I rock in food service industry, I was in it for three years and people loved me. I got out of it though, because I hate it. It's not something for me. So just because you'd be great at something, doesn't mean you'd want to do it. That same thing goes for these characters too. Remember, you might be a top notch adventurer, but the lives of people in Eberron are much like our lives. They work for coin, buy food and shelter, marry and date and all the other things we do. Really, it could be like asking, "why didn't you join the Marines?" (( Just a general statement, not meant to target any poster or the thread creator. ))
Pinky's brain 06-08-07, 09:43 PM	Warshaper is not an occupation, it's a tool. It builds on your natural abilities, non character specific rationales for having an aversion to warshapers are just not there for shapechanger races. It's like having an aversion to two handed weapons as a barbarian, it might make sense for a specific character ... but not in the general case. For a melee oriented adventurer there is very little reason not to be a warshaper. It is the perfect class to dip. I don't really see the problem with that though, not every prestige class has to be unique and rare IMO (or at least any rarer than those adventurers who can take the class in the first place). Some things just make sense ... uniqueness for its own sake does not in the general case.
gensuke626 06-08-07, 10:48 PM	I see your logic Pinky...I just took up the Op's challenge and came up with a reason why not every changeling and shifter should be a Warshaper.
JarHead031 06-09-07, 04:45 AM	I understand warshaper isn't an occupation, I was just trying to make a point. Perhaps I went about it at a wrong angle. But basically I was trying to say that it's basically a stereotype that all shifters and changelings care about their shifting ability. In fact, it's made a point that some changelings don't even take advantage of their ability. Or others just use it for one form and stay in that form their entire life. But also, warshaper is a class that's all about combat, like most PC classes and PrCs. What I was also getting at is that not everyone in Eberron is out to learn combative skills. There are people in this world that would rather work on computers and never learn how to defend their country. Just the same there are shifters in Eberron that would rather tend to their farm or hold a steady job, or changelings that would rather hold a steady job or not use their ability at all than learn to fight. Though warshaper isn't an occupation, it helps out a character's occupation generally. Whether it be a fighter-for-hire, an adventurer or a member of some faction or military. Some may decide on warshaper to improve their shapeshifting abilities while others would rather focus their feats and experience on their techniques as a blacksmith or farmer.
The Crimson Dawn 06-12-07, 11:40 PM	though to be hones think of how useful it would be in everyday life to have the powers of a warshaper. Think of how easy it would be to make things in the kitchen if you had 5 feet more reach with your arms. With that you would never have to move anything but your arms (exaggerating a little but still). If you cut yourself you would just say woops and it would heal. You would be stronger and heartier making tasks easier. Lastly if you needed a knife or some such you can easily make your own. If I had the ability (and lets face it your average commoner would take about 8 levels and your average expert 6 so it is not likely) I would totally take it as a changeling, not for combat but for the shear ease it would make my life.
Nived 06-13-07, 02:17 AM	Why isn't every human being on earth an Olympic class athlete? Or master of the martial arts? Strong Man, Boxer, Wrestler, Quantum Physicist, or any other example of the penicle of physical or mental development? Because not all of us have the potential, not all of us have the will, and ultimatly because we make choices. A better question would be "Why would every shifter or changling be a warshaper?" The answer is of course "They're not."
ChristopherGroves 06-14-07, 12:34 AM	Shifters: Because it isn't "always on" for shifters. Moonspeakers exist Changelings: Beguiler exists Mindspy and Cabinet Tricksters are cool Recaster is better than chocolate and beer
Hellcow 06-14-07, 01:45 PM	Why isn't every human being on earth an Olympic class athlete? This is certainly the answer to me. Aside from the question of whether you allow it, since warshaper was designed before there were LA 0 shapeshifter races, the greater point is that most people in the world are 1st or 2nd level commoners, and that's all they'll ever be. Commoner gives you Craft and Profession; if you do Skill Focus and have the key stat at 12, you can get a +9 modifier to your Craft or Profession check - certainly enough to get most people through the day. One of the main conceits of Eberron is that player characters are remarkable individuals, reflected by action points, use of PC classses, and the abillity to advance quickly and to unlimited level. If you'll check Forge of War you'll find that the average soldiers of most nations were low-level warriors or commoners; killing a few goblins doesn't automatically advance them in level the same way it does for PCs. In may run counter to the "No sacred cows" argument some raise, but in Eberron, the PCs are supposed to be unusual - and both rapid advancement and use of PrCs and PC classes reflects that. This isn't to say that NPCs can't use PC classes or PrCs, and can't end up with high level. The ECS alone presents 8th level versions of Halas Martain and Demise, not to mention Erandis, the Lord of Blades, Mordain the Fleshweaver, etc. But just as the PCs are the heroes, these are important characters of a story. The bulk of the world learns the skills they need to earn a living, and that's as far as they go. So even setting aside the "Does the DM allow changelings or shifters to be warshapers" question, the reason all shifters and changelings aren't warshapers is because most changelings and shifters are 1st or 2nd level characters using NPC classes, and thus fail to meet the requirements. The warshaper is the olympic athlete of the changelings - it's just not something everyone has in them, or a struggle they consider worthwhile. Many people are happy to take their Craft or Profession and earn a living with it.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 06:09 PM	can anyone think of a reason not all changelings and shifters should take warshaper? Yeah, and why on earth would anyone *choose* to be a Commoner? It's the worst class ever! Why didn't all those Humans all pick Wizard or Barbarian?
ArcTan 06-16-07, 06:11 PM	though to be hones think of how useful it would be in everyday life to have the powers of a warshaper. Think of how easy it would be to make things in the kitchen if you had 5 feet more reach with your arms. With that you would never have to move anything but your arms (exaggerating a little but still). If you cut yourself you would just say woops and it would heal. You would be stronger and heartier making tasks easier. Lastly if you needed a knife or some such you can easily make your own. If I had the ability (and lets face it your average commoner would take about 8 levels and your average expert 6 so it is not likely) I would totally take it as a changeling, not for combat but for the shear ease it would make my life. Can you imagine how much easier it'd make your life to be a Wizard? Prestidigitation alone! C'mon! Why don't all Commoners multiclass into that? Oh, right. They CAN'T. Most people are Commoner 1 and always will be Commoner 1. That's how the world works, as a simulation tool. Pretending that every character in the world has a player and thinks like a player will OF COURSE make the world make no sense.
ChristopherGroves 06-18-07, 01:11 AM	Commoner 8 or something could qualify ... how many commoner 8's out there? Back to the specific question which I think relates more to PCs and not the common folk ...frankly, the question is misleading. Warshaper is a powerful class with (on the shifter and changeling) pretty easy entry requirements. But even still, there are tons of reasons all PCs wouldn't want to take it. If you need an exhaustive list, that could take days. Let's just start with a simple one ... You don't want to play a Warshaper. Hell, it may not even be the most optimal choice for pure power anyway. Even if you're hyper-optimizing your character there are plenty of things you can do with shifters and changelings that are simply stronger in most games. I think folks are trying to invent a solution for a problem that doesn't really exist.
Dirth 06-29-07, 02:46 PM	I thought you had to have the shape changer subtype or be able to polymorph or change shape as a class ability.
ChristopherGroves 06-29-07, 08:23 PM	Shifters and changelings both have the subtype
ShadowcatX 06-30-07, 11:57 AM	Perhaps they're casters, or perhaps they're chameleons, perhaps you have a tight build and don't have room for an extra 2 to 4 levels. That said, I do believe many shifters would take classes around their shifting powers and making themselves stronger, and that warshaper would be one of the more common prcs among them, as would weretouched master. As to changlings, I don't see them as nearly straight out comment (as a culture) as the shifters, and so I wouldn't think they'd gravitate toward it as much.
KidChainsaw 06-30-07, 01:10 PM	Looking at it from a PC only standpoint: Warshaper doesn't have a 1-for-1 BAB, some builds rely on that heavily for things like iterative attacks and qualifying for certain feats. At low to mid levels, a few of those builds are actually more powerful than the 'shaper. Changeling infiltration/impersonation types gain next to nothing from warshaper. Only when they get caught are the abilities relevant. A good thief or spy should concentrate on not getting caught.
ArcTan 07-02-07, 09:30 PM	The easiest reason why a PC wouldn't choose to become a Warshaper from a metagame perspective is that a smart DM would ban it, because the Warshaper PrC clearly wasn't written with the idea of LA +0 PC races with the Shapechanger subtype in mind. It's a well known enough exploit that most DMs who keep up with hearsay about what to ban know to ban it (just like most DMs who know anything run away screaming when they hear the words "Frenzied Berserker").
Werebat 07-02-07, 11:21 PM	can anyone think of a reason not all changelings and shifters should take warshaper? Probably the same reason that not every swiftwing shifter would be a monk. - Ron ^*^
Werebat 07-02-07, 11:27 PM	The easiest reason why a PC wouldn't choose to become a Warshaper from a metagame perspective is that a smart DM would ban it, because the Warshaper PrC clearly wasn't written with the idea of LA +0 PC races with the Shapechanger subtype in mind. It's a well known enough exploit that most DMs who keep up with hearsay about what to ban know to ban it (just like most DMs who know anything run away screaming when they hear the words "Frenzied Berserker"). I dunno... Really, what is the worst abuse one can accomplish with this PrC? I imagine it would be slipping in very early with a changeling fighter. What campaign breaking effects does it really produce? Personally I aesthetically *like* the idea of a changeling monk who goes warshaper -- they are training their body to be a weapon just like a human monk, but being what that are they have several methods that a human just doesn't have access to. That's really the only way I'd want to play it -- a shifter warshaper just feels goofy to me, they are gaining abilities that lycanthropes don't have (growing tentacles or long necks to bite from afar). - Ron ^*^
The Crimson Dawn 07-03-07, 12:13 AM	The answer is that it is not broken to have warshaper available for the changeling or the Shifter. Think about it. Either race could be entering warshaper after only 6 levels of druid. This is the most basic way of entering the class for any race. The only advantage for a shifter is that he can get in at level 4 if he takes an all good BAB class. The changeling is getting an additional benefit of getting all warshaper abilities at all times. But think of what these characters give up. Warrior types lose BAB and hp. While their abilities make them heartier they still are not over all better at killing things (with one exception). If they were a skill monkey (and many changelings are) then you lose a lot of skill points for once again for survival abilities. If you are a spell caster you lose out on spells. I personally think that for many characters warshaper's abilities would be worth it for survival purposes but in terms of raw power there are better choices. The only exception powerwise is if you let the warshaper make as many weapons as they want. this however would be broken on any character not just for these races. That is the most broken thing you can do with this class as far as I know.
ChristopherGroves 07-03-07, 12:29 AM	(the most basic way of entering is Shapeshift Druid 1 plus any other class combinations that give you the BAB requirement ... and any race can do that)
The Crimson Dawn 07-03-07, 11:28 PM	ho ho you are correct sir excuse me! I should say my way is the core way of doing it but you are very right. So now you can get in easily after 5 levels.
Werebat 07-04-07, 09:45 AM	So the question is now -- why wouldn't EVERYONE be a shapeshift druid who goes into warshaper? - Ron ^*^