Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pandapeep 04-18-07, 03:42 PM	Ok, I have Human Monk who has swore a vow of poverty and was curious if he could recive an Artificer infustion to a weapon he might carry. Exhalted deeds says they can recive spells cast on them, like a haste, heal, ect, but they can't own a magic weapon. Since the infustion isn't permanent, would the weapon count as part of the character? Also, could an Artificer get around a process of of item creation by infusing a weapon/item/ect and then casting, if he is multiclass artificer, or having permancy cast on the infused weapon?
crashbangboom 04-18-07, 04:23 PM	To the best of my knowlege the infusion would not break the vow because it has a duration of 10 minutes/ level. the monk would just have to ask for it and find a way to repay the favor/service, whether it came from a PC or an NPC. As far as the Permanency goes it is restricted to the spells listed or spell effects, except by DM discretion.
Edymnion 04-18-07, 07:17 PM	Do not try to metagame around your vow. You character took a vow of poverty. They have intentionally given up *ANY* material goods not specifically listed for the feat. A temporary enhancement to their base weapon is fine, having permanency cast on it is not, because you then have a valuable weapon. Just having your character try to think of ways around the vow would be instant grounds for having broken it, IMO. Your character took a solemn oath to not own any valuable goods. The feat is just a stopgap way to make such a concept playable. I don't mean to sound harsh, but if you weren't willing to live with not having any magical weapons, then you should not have taken VoP in the first place. Because, generally speaking, the answer to any "I have VoP, can I...." is "No". The feat is very clear, very explicit in what it allows. Anything, anything AT ALL not listed in the feat is a violation of your vow, plain and simple.
Witchcraft 04-18-07, 10:14 PM	Because, generally speaking, the answer to any "I have VoP, can I...." is "No". The feat is very clear, very explicit in what it allows. Anything, anything AT ALL not listed in the feat is a violation of your vow, plain and simple. Well spoken
Macrovore 04-18-07, 10:22 PM	Because, generally speaking, the answer to any "I have VoP, can I...." is "No". The feat is very clear, very explicit in what it allows. Anything, anything AT ALL not listed in the feat is a violation of your vow, plain and simple. which really sucks for wizards.
TheAnthroDM 04-18-07, 10:34 PM	which really sucks for wizards.I guess we could replace them all with magewrites? /sarcasm
Arcane Guyver 04-19-07, 02:36 AM	which really sucks for wizards. Even if your wizard (or archivist) works in a public library with spellbooks available to peruse, taking a VoP is just a terrible idea.
Daydreamer 04-19-07, 05:02 AM	this is the epoch of powergaming.
Edymnion 04-19-07, 12:34 PM	which really sucks for wizards.Yup, since spellbooks are very costly, and are not listed on the allowable items. Just means you play him as a sorcerer instead. And just for the record, I do not allow the BoXD in my Eberron games at all. I find them poorly written to begin with, and such absolute black and white morality as presented in said books has no place in my Eberron game.
Logos7 04-19-07, 01:35 PM	really? I find just the sheer greyness of eberron effectivly gimps those builds anyway BOVD: and now we sacrifice this pure maiden Sacrifice: Ps im a changling hooker and my name's Tom Asshat! or BOED: and now whenever i touch evil , they get a horrible disease Everyone Else: Why does our fair and just ruler look like he's a Golden Ice Leper Now I don't mind them , i think eberron still has room for True Hero's ( as apposed to anti Hero's not to say that LG is better than anything else) with it's anti hero's. anyway my 2 cp
Macrovore 04-19-07, 02:54 PM	I allow book of exalted deeds. The character just needs to really be exalted. to use an old board quote, the citation to which has long been lost to the depths: "Exalted characters are so good, they make paladins look like shifty crack dealers" even though the spirit of that quote has been lessened for Eberron, because many paladins ARE crack dealers (or just as worse).
Tevin Kevlak 04-19-07, 03:07 PM	I allow book of exalted deeds. The character just needs to really be exalted. to use an old board quote, the citation to which has long been lost to the depths: "Exalted characters are so good, they make paladins look like shifty crack dealers" even though the spirit of that quote has been lessened for Eberron, because many paladins ARE crack dealers (or just as worse). Paladins in Eberron still have to be LG, so unless crack is legal in their area of "business" then they're not paladins.
Macrovore 04-19-07, 03:14 PM	that was meant to be a joke, but I don't think it turned out very well. I was alluding to the fact that many paladins (esp. silver flame paladins) use less-than-savory methods for good causes. Don't make this into a paladin alignment thread. just move along.
Tevin Kevlak 04-19-07, 03:20 PM	that was meant to be a joke, but I don't think it turned out very well. I was alluding to the fact that many paladins (esp. silver flame paladins) use less-than-savory methods for good causes. Don't make this into a paladin alignment thread. just move along. I assume you mean the lycanthrope purge when you mention the silver flame paladins but I'm fairly confident that the "atrocities" that occured during the purge were largely on the heads of a militant sect of silver flame worshippers and I don't believe that they would count Paladins amongst their ranks... perhaps Grey Guards but doubtfully paladins. That being said... moving along.
Edymnion 04-19-07, 09:02 PM	I allow book of exalted deeds. The character just needs to really be exalted. to use an old board quote, the citation to which has long been lost to the depths: "Exalted characters are so good, they make paladins look like shifty crack dealers"*raises hand* Heh, you're quoting me, my boy, as I'm the one who originally said that. More precisely, the quote was "Exalted characters are so good, they make paladins look like shifty crack dealers on a playground." :) But yeah, the basic idea for Exalted is that an Exalted character is as far above a Paladin as a Paladin is above your average pusher. And all one has to do is spend about 30 seconds looking at these boards to know that the majority of people simply are not mature enough to even play a Paladin without making a mess out of it, much less an honest to god Exalted character.
Macrovore 04-19-07, 09:13 PM	precicely. which is why I added on the requirement that you actually have to be mature enough to ROLEPLAY being exalted.
KidChainsaw 04-21-07, 12:41 AM	Anyone ever notice that the only characters taking the Vow of Poverty happen to be monks? Gee, a build that is supposed to compensate for having not magic items/weapons only taken by a class that is designed to function without said items or weapons. And what is said individual doing with a bunch of mercenary looters in a Xendrik ruin? Sorry, I was just venting...I'll move along now.
Arcane Guyver 04-21-07, 08:18 PM	Anyone ever notice that the only characters taking the Vow of Poverty happen to be monks? Gee, a build that is supposed to compensate for having not magic items/weapons only taken by a class that is designed to function without said items or weapons. Well...that is the popular view, but Monks need gear just like everyone else. It just that the stuff they need to pick up is really expensive (which might be one reason why they get shorted on starting wealth...can't really pick up a ring of protection or an amulet of natural armor at 1st level). It's just perceived that they are the least gear-reliant class in the game. I honestly wonder how much fun a VoP sorcerer would be. Sure, they need gear like everyone else (mostly in consumables), but this would give the sorcerer something to look forward to other than spells at each level.
DragoonDarkfire 04-21-07, 09:10 PM	Yup, since spellbooks are very costly, and are not listed on the allowable items. Just means you play him as a sorcerer instead. And just for the record, I do not allow the BoXD in my Eberron games at all. I find them poorly written to begin with, and such absolute black and white morality as presented in said books has no place in my Eberron game. That's stupid. BoXD simply states the ideas of good, Alighnment means different things in Eberron but they're still essentially the same. It's easy to apply things from The Book of Vile darkness in Eberron, name me one thing that you can't but even THINKING about something GOOD to combat the evil? That's madness :rolleyes: And a character with Exalted feats doesn't make him a goodie-goodie toushoes all of a sudden. Look at these examples of feats and prestige classes. Sacred Vow- Characters who take vows against certain vices exist everywhere. Even in our morally ambiguous world. Vow of Abstinence, Poverty, Purity, Peace, Obedience. You find these examples everywhere. A character doesn't even need to be a zealous flamer or a devote worshiper of the Host in order to take one of these vow feats. A character could simply just hate fighting or was a war torn veteran who vowed to never kill another man when the war ended. Prestige classes- I can easily see Anointed Knights being apart of the Silver Flame, or possibly worshipers of Dol Arrah (spell?). Apostles of Peace? When is it better to have an Apostle of Peace then in a world recovering from war? Beloved of Valarian... well I would personally remove the gender prerequisite and make it a peace of the Wardens of Wood sect or possibly the Gatekeepers. Celestial Mystic? Replace Celestia with Syrania and there isn't much difference. Champion of Gwynharwyf, Defender of Sealtiel, Emissary of Barachiel, Exalted Archanist, Fist of Raziel, Initiate of Pistis Sophia, Lion of Talisid, prophet of Erathaol, Sentinel of Bharrai, Stalker of Kharash and the like can easily fit into Eberron, just replace archangels with powerful Couatl Spirits who chose these individuals to serve a greater good. Risen Matyr is a bit difficult. I'd assume it might be something along the lines of some powerful force of good (such as the Undying Court or the Silver Flame) pulling a soul back from the grasp of Dolurrh and giving him a deathless body in order for him to fulfill a greater purpose. Slayers of Domiel can fit in as possible former assassins or rouges trained by the Silver Flame to implore assassin like tactics against their enemies. Swanmays just scream "GATEKEEPER" to me. Troubadour of the Stars can fit in as a Bard who worships Siberys and plays music to fight the forces of Khyber. Vasall of Bahamute can work as well in the catagory of Siberys worshipers (replacing Bahamute with Siberys). Who specializes in destroying rouge dragons who use the power of Khyber. Alignment is still the same in Eberron, it just means that "Evil can help the cause of good" and "Good can serve the cause of evil".
Edymnion 04-21-07, 09:16 PM	I honestly wonder how much fun a VoP sorcerer would be. Sure, they need gear like everyone else (mostly in consumables), but this would give the sorcerer something to look forward to other than spells at each level.Not much, IMO, as spell components aren't covered by VoP, so you wouldn't be able to cast anything with a costly material component. Thats going to drastically limit your choices. That's stupid. BoXD simply states the ideas of good, Alighnment means different things in Eberron but they're still essentially the same.The entire point of Eberron, IMO, is that good people can do bad things and still be good people, and that bad people can do good things and still be bad people. Vile and Exalted are very black and white, pure good and pure evil, which doesn't really have a place in my Eberron games. Shades of gray, not stark black and white.
DragoonDarkfire 04-21-07, 09:38 PM	Vile and Exalted are very black and white, pure good and pure evil, which doesn't really have a place in my Eberron games. Shades of gray, not stark black and white. Actually both books go into small bits about shades of Grey and the definition of good and evil. You need to remember that even Eberron is more black and white then real modern day earth. Why? Earth doesn't have incarnations of evil (Rakshasas) and good (Couatls).
Macrovore 04-21-07, 10:50 PM	agreed. there are shining examples of good in the world, and horrid examples of evil, and even though many people choose to ignore them, they are still there. PCs who believe in the cause of good enough can really change the world, all the better if they do not resort to evil means to do so. There may be shades of grey, but the edges are black and white.
Arcane Guyver 04-22-07, 07:01 AM	Not much, IMO, as spell components aren't covered by VoP, so you wouldn't be able to cast anything with a costly material component. Thats going to drastically limit your choices. I think we just found a reason to take the Eschew Materials feat! Most of my sorcerers don't take spells with costly material components as spells known anyways.
AntiSean 04-22-07, 04:04 PM	You need to remember that even Eberron is more black and white then real modern day earth. Why? Earth doesn't have incarnations of evil (Rakshasas) and good (Couatls). And your examples of black and white evil and good are powerful creatures, not PCs. Applying the contents of either book works fine for particularly powerful and/or exceptional NPCs (IIRC, there is an NPC in Sharn: CoT with the Saint template, for instance); applying them to PCs just screams of the search for more 'k3wl p0w3rz'.
DragoonDarkfire 04-22-07, 04:19 PM	And your examples of black and white evil and good are powerful creatures, not PCs. Applying the contents of either book works fine for particularly powerful and/or exceptional NPCs (IIRC, there is an NPC in Sharn: CoT with the Saint template, for instance); applying them to PCs just screams of the search for more 'k3wl p0w3rz'. Your point? Player Characters looking for awesome ways to increase their characters power? Like that's not new >_>
Macrovore 04-22-07, 04:35 PM	and PCs ARE powerful creatures. that's the whole reason why they're PCs, and not just commoners.
AntiSean 04-22-07, 07:21 PM	Your point? Player Characters looking for awesome ways to increase their characters power? Like that's not new >_> My point is that you're wasting your breath trying to convince Edymnion that he should use the Book of Exalted Cheese in his game when he's already determined that it doesn't fit with his playstyle. Your listing of means by which to shoehorn its contents into his campaign is for naught.
DragoonDarkfire 04-22-07, 08:14 PM	My point is that you're wasting your breath trying to convince Edymnion that he should use the Book of Exalted Cheese in his game when he's already determined that it doesn't fit with his playstyle. Your listing of means by which to shoehorn its contents into his campaign is for naught. Isn't one of the rules in Eberron "anything that's in regular DnD has a place in Eberron"? who said anything about Shoe horning? And Edymnion's opinion is his own? WOW where did you hear that? No seriously, I was pointing out that the BoXD and BoVD both have potential to be used in a Grey setting. Just because he doesn't agree with it doesn't mean other people who read this won't, that's the point of stating ones opinion.
Arcane Guyver 04-22-07, 08:30 PM	Isn't one of the rules in Eberron "anything that's in regular DnD has a place in Eberron"? No. It was mentioned in the ECS that if you want to, you could fit anything you really want into the campaign. Not that everything definitely has a place or thematically fits with how it was written. That said, I do think the BoED and BoVD are both interesting, and further define the extreme moral alignments. Though the contents of those two books are a bit out of reach or just inappropriate for most player characters, it works well for developing creatures with an alignment subtype. Plus, the BoED is pretty much the only source for additional deathless creatures, and the BoVD has some good PRCs for distinctive villains. It all comes down to one's understanding of alignment. I think with Eberron they're really trying to nail down the concept that exists in the Player's Handbook. The only thing that Eberron has really 'changed' where alignment is concerned is eliminating the unnecessary Cleric restriction and basically changing dragons to having an alignment (usually _____) instead of (always _____).
AntiSean 04-22-07, 09:04 PM	Isn't one of the rules in Eberron "anything that's in regular DnD has a place in Eberron"? who said anything about Shoe horning? Arcane Guyver already addressed the sadly oft-misinterpreted guideline in the ECS. And Edymnion's opinion is his own? WOW where did you hear that? Umm, perhaps in the post of his where he explicitly stated that he was referring to his own campaign. It was in the post of his that you quoted. No seriously, I was pointing out that the BoXD and BoVD both have potential to be used in a Grey setting. Just because he doesn't agree with it doesn't mean other people who read this won't, that's the point of stating ones opinion. After you mocked his opinion as being 'stupid', you proceeded to iterate over a laundry list of reasons why he was wrong to not include it in his Eberron game. If your intentions were different, you failed to make that adequately clear.
Wizardman 04-23-07, 12:23 AM	My personal view is that both BO_D books have a place in Eberron, applied judiciously. Even for PC's. It's a grey world, very true, but that doesn't mean that points of black and white don't exist. It's just that they stick out all the more. That can be made to work, provided that the DM and the players are on the same page and are willing to explore the consequences of their actions in-game.
aelryinth 04-23-07, 01:22 AM	The class most suited for the Vow of Poverty is actually the Druid. Of the primary spellcaster classes, they suffer no impediments whatsoever under the restrictions of the Vow. Sorcerors with Eschew Materials come in next. If someone could find a way to get around the restriction of needing a holy symbol, Favored Souls and Clerics would work well. Monks do well with VoP, although they lose access to high level mobility at later levels without spellcasting friends. However, they get some very complementary stat bonuses out of it. =============== Exalted Definitely has a place in Eberron. There's even a Sainted character in Sharn! However, she's not your typical smiting cleric saint, she's a saint of the God of Community, and she sits on a pillar advising everyone and anyone on how to get along, needs no food or water, and ignores the elements. The Lords of Dust probably ignore her because she's not martial. No reason to change the patrons of the Exalted classes at all. They are just powerful otherplanar entities, who happen to have interests on Eberron. If Greensingers can represent Thelanis, no reason a Silver Fist couldn't develop an affinity for Raziel in honor of Tia, or Pistis Sophia as patron of LG martial artists. Paladins don't do evil in the name of good, or they become ex-paladins. Templars do, however. Paladins are still held by the higher standard. Note that Grey Guards are too...they just find it easier to atone. Going from Paladin to Exalted is simply a case of taking an additional vow and cleaving more strongly to Good then Law. Paladins to Exalted Status is more a lateral move then a step up the ladder. In Eberron, Exalted status is DEFINITELY a step up the ladder for clerics, who aren't compelled to be of Good alignment to work in the service of Good gods. In any event, if you aren't prepared to play Exalted status, then you shouldn't put it in a game. If your DM isn't prepared to handle Exalted status, you shouldn't play it, either (meaning, he goes out of his way to make your Exalted character's life hell, while catering to the lower motivations of the other characters, constantly trying to make you 'fall' or kill you...being Exalted is NOT a DM's motivation to turn you inevitably into the perfect Blackguard.) ===Aelryinth
ArcTan 04-28-07, 07:52 PM	Anyone ever notice that the only characters taking the Vow of Poverty happen to be monks? Gee, a build that is supposed to compensate for having not magic items/weapons only taken by a class that is designed to function without said items or weapons. ...And they're still pretty subpar anyway, so a VoP Monk isn't exactly smashing the game to pieces -- it more or less becomes on par with a very well-built Fighter with good equipment, or a moderately well-built spellcaster.
ArcTan 04-28-07, 07:58 PM	Exalted Definitely has a place in Eberron. There's even a Sainted character in Sharn! However, she's not your typical smiting cleric saint, she's a saint of the God of Community, and she sits on a pillar advising everyone and anyone on how to get along, needs no food or water, and ignores the elements. The Lords of Dust probably ignore her because she's not martial. I think the point of that was to demonstrate that Eberron is *not* a world where Sainthood or Exalted status are impossible. It is, however, a world where such people -- just as they would be in real life -- are very rare, think in a fundamentally different way from ordinary people, and have goals that seem very detached from standard D&D "smiting" Clerics.
DragoonDarkfire 04-29-07, 12:00 PM	Arcane Guyver already addressed the sadly oft-misinterpreted guideline in the ECS. Misprinted? I'm sorry but the idea of _________ book not working for Eberron just doesn't appeal to me just because some random people think so. Umm, perhaps in the post of his where he explicitly stated that he was referring to his own campaign. It was in the post of his that you quoted. And again I had the ability to counter said opinion with my own. Think of it like this Telling me to not to enforce my ideals on other people is in itself you forcing your ideals on me, making you a hypocrite. It sucks when logic bites you in the behind doesn't it? After you mocked his opinion as being 'stupid', you proceeded to iterate over a laundry list of reasons why he was wrong to not include it in his Eberron game. If your intentions were different, you failed to make that adequately clear. No you saw me as attacking him when my list was to simply try and put certain aspects of the book into Eberron. I said it was stupid to automatically classify Eberron as "gray" without even thinking that aspects like good and evil exist. That was his opinion on it but I never once said it was worse then mine simply that there were other ways of looking at it.
Arcane Guyver 04-29-07, 09:14 PM	Misprinted? I'm sorry but the idea of _________ book not working for Eberron just doesn't appeal to me just because some random people think so. I think you might have misread this. Basically, you need the core rulebooks + the ECS to play Eberron. If you're the DM, you have full power to throw as many other sourcebooks into this mix as you wish. However, all these extra books are entirely optional, and save for a handful (Expanded Psionics Handbook and all the Eberron-specific splatbooks), none of them have a place "reserved for them" in the world. I really despise this whole line in the ECS, actually, and wish they wouldn't have put it in there. Sure, the ease of placing anything in Eberron is one of it's selling points...but the same thing could be said for all but the most non-standard campaign settings. I happen to agree with you to a point - there's definite good and evil in Eberron, so the books governing absolute good and evil do fit it pretty well, and help serve as the foil for less clear-cut characters.
yrogerg 04-29-07, 10:22 PM	I think you might have misread this. Basically, you need the core rulebooks + the ECS to play Eberron. If you're the DM, you have full power to throw as many other sourcebooks into this mix as you wish. However, all these extra books are entirely optional, and save for a handful (Expanded Psionics Handbook and all the Eberron-specific splatbooks), none of them have a place "reserved for them" in the world. I really despise this whole line in the ECS, actually, and wish they wouldn't have put it in there. Sure, the ease of placing anything in Eberron is one of it's selling points...but the same thing could be said for all but the most non-standard campaign settings. I happen to agree with you to a point - there's definite good and evil in Eberron, so the books governing absolute good and evil do fit it pretty well, and help serve as the foil for less clear-cut characters. FWIW, the point of that line was simply that Eberron is the first setting designed specifically with 3.5 D&D in mind (whereas Greyhawk, FR, Dragonlance, et al. all pre-date 3.0), and is thus made with an *awareness* of the current body of work at that time that makes it *possible* to include most additional information from that current body of work without major adaptation or shoehorning. That doesn't mean everything *should* be placed in Eberron, but it means that if you wanted to include BoXD information in the setting, it shouldn't, by and large, be the canon setting itself that prevents it, rather than the fact that BoXD suck.
ArcTan 04-29-07, 10:52 PM	I assume you mean the lycanthrope purge when you mention the silver flame paladins but I'm fairly confident that the "atrocities" that occured during the purge were largely on the heads of a militant sect of silver flame worshippers and I don't believe that they would count Paladins amongst their ranks... perhaps Grey Guards but doubtfully paladins. That being said... moving along. Keith Baker's clarified his intentions about this before. Eberron was meant to be "gray" in that you find it harder to match a particular alignment with any one race of beings or any one nation -- the Five Nations aren't particularly Good places as a whole, not even Thrane, Humans aren't particularly prone to Good nor Orcs to Evil, etc. However, alignment still *exists*, and with the *exception* of Clerics, still follows its usual rules. Which means that, yes, Paladins *are* Lawful Good exemplars of morality and ethics who lose their powers if they commit a single Evil act. The fact that the organizations Paladins tend to work within, churches, are "grayer" than they are in other D&D worlds doesn't mean they themselves aren't Paladins anymore. It does mean they have to do more to work around the organizations they're in rather than blindly supporting them or counting on their full support. Paladins, for instance, were the ones in the Silver Purge most likely to listen to the claims of Good-aligned Lycanthropes and try to sneak them out to Lamannia from under the noses of their brethren.
AntiSean 04-30-07, 02:29 PM	Misprinted? I said 'misinterpreted', not 'misprinted'. I'm sorry but the idea of _________ book not working for Eberron just doesn't appeal to me just because some random people think so. An excellent tactic; represent the actual conversation taking place (people discussing their opinions re: the BoXD and it's applicability to Eberron, or lack thereof) as being an attempt to coerce you into not using the BoXD with Eberron. Bravo! And again I had the ability to counter said opinion with my own. Think of it like this Telling me to not to enforce my ideals on other people is in itself you forcing your ideals on me, making you a hypocrite. It sucks when logic bites you in the behind doesn't it? It does indeed suck when that happens to me; it's happened before, and I'm sure it'll happen again. Don't congratulate yourself too quickly, though, because it didn't happen in this case. I didn't tell you not to 'enforce your ideals' on anyone; I pointed out that you were wasting your time trying to change his opinion. You folllowed up with a post stating that that wasn't your intent, and that you were trying to share your opinion with others, but without that additional context added after the fact, your post read as though you were trying to change his opinion. So in this instance, at least, I remain happily free of hypocracy. No you saw me as attacking him when my list was to simply try and put certain aspects of the book into Eberron. I said it was stupid to automatically classify Eberron as "gray" without even thinking that aspects like good and evil exist. That was his opinion on it but I never once said it was worse then mine simply that there were other ways of looking at it. Where I come from, referring to someone's opinion as "stupid", particularly someone who you are not familiar with, is seen as an attack. You then proceeded to list the ways in which his opinion was wrong, when he clearly and specifically stated that his comments were his own opinions and relevant to the game he runs. In subsequent posts, you seem to attempt to clarify your statements, but your initial communication was unclear, at best. There was no transition between your judgement of his opinion of the book's *incompatability with his own game* to your listing of all the ways in which the BoXD is super great and awesomely keen-o-rific and the perfect fit for Eberron. To me, at least, that looks an awful lot like you were still speaking to Edymnion, and not to the board in general. If you had communicated clearly and concisely from the start, there wouldn't have been as much confusion generated or clarification required after the fact. Hope that helps!
Celebrimbdal 04-30-07, 05:57 PM	I don't allow the BoED as a whole in my Eberron campaign, although I have allowed some of the less "bright and shiny" options and spells on a case-by -case basis, but not much and definitely none of the PrCs, no Nimbus of Light and no Touch of Golden Ice, among many other things. As for the BoVD, I use (or would like to use) much of it, but it's not available to PCs, just my BBEGs. My rationale on this is that most of the fiends walking around Eberron are native to the world and it is they, and their servants, for whom I use these options. I do allow evil characters (if they can actually cooperate with others enough to keep a group together), but they can never access the truly evil stuff from this book. That's reserved for enemies that need to be bad enough to make an evil character look like a hero. If others want to allow the whole BoED and can make it work, that's great, but I feel that the brightness of it all threatens the gray areas I try so hard to create in my campaign.
DragoonDarkfire 04-30-07, 10:32 PM	An excellent tactic; represent the actual conversation taking place (people discussing their opinions re: the BoXD and it's applicability to Eberron, or lack thereof) as being an attempt to coerce you into not using the BoXD with Eberron. Bravo! That's not what I was getting at. I was saying that people who automatically decide that ________ book doesn't belong in a setting doesn't really have any excuse for doing it besides their opinion. I believe I already proved that Eberron is a world with good an evil. It does indeed suck when that happens to me; it's happened before, and I'm sure it'll happen again. Don't congratulate yourself too quickly, though, because it didn't happen in this case. I didn't tell you not to 'enforce your ideals' on anyone; I pointed out that you were wasting your time trying to change his opinion. Just like how you're wasting your time trying to get me to think I'm wasting my time? You folllowed up with a post stating that that wasn't your intent, and that you were trying to share your opinion with others, but without that additional context added after the fact, your post read as though you were trying to change his opinion. So in this instance, at least, I remain happily free of hypocracy. Congratulations: you get a puppy. Where I come from, referring to someone's opinion as "stupid", particularly someone who you are not familiar with, is seen as an attack. His reason for not useing the book was stupid. His opinion was not. You then proceeded to list the ways in which his opinion was wrong, when he clearly and specifically stated that his comments were his own opinions and relevant to the game he runs. Here's an interesting idea: Sometimes people need help when they are not entirely open minded about something. Many FR fanboys and Drizzt humpers fall into this catagory with Eberron. Now I've argued with a few of these people before but I will tell you that the few who I've convinced to look at Eberron from a different perspective have, at the very least. Learned to tolerate the setting for what it is (I've actually converted fans before but remember that in the end I am but a guide and it is there decision to make.) Now when you think about what I did then you yourself must realize the fact that sometimes you post or tell your opinion not to simply be ignored by other people who silently disagree with you. You tell your opinion so you can hear OTHERS opinions on the subject and to hear different viewpoints from which they come from. You say facts, definitions, or examples to verify this opinion and while your opinion remains concrete and your own decision it is the facts, definitions and examples you lay down that can be contradicted, opposed and altered. I do not want him to change his mind on the subject. I want him to try looking at a particular subject through a different lens. In subsequent posts, you seem to attempt to clarify your statements, but your initial communication was unclear, at best. If you wish for me to go into deep methodical explanation every time I post then please refrain from pointing at me accusingly and making your posts sound like you're interrogating me. Try asking questions, it makes you come off as being friendlier. Trust me. There was no transition between your judgement of his opinion of the book's *incompatability with his own game* to your listing of all the ways in which the BoXD is super great and awesomely keen-o-rific and the perfect fit for Eberron. To me, at least, that looks an awful lot like you were still speaking to Edymnion, and not to the board in general. If you had communicated clearly and concisely from the start, there wouldn't have been as much confusion generated or clarification required after the fact. Hope that helps! FIRST PROBLEM WITH YOUR LOGIC: You stated I was unclear about my post and yet you yourself are rather unclear about where your coming from. You say I'm wasting my time with this? Well congratulations as so are you. You're saying I was unclear about my original post? Hate me for expressing my own opinion in the face of another and saying I'm wasting my time when you yourself are doing nothing but wasting yours AND my time to try and get me to... what exactly do you want me to do? Apologize to Edymnion? For what? contradicting his reason for not allowing BoXD in Eberron with a reason of my own for allowing it? This is what argument is about. If all opinions were the same then Adolf Hitler's opinions were just as valid as anyone else's. Unfortunately he's still regarded as a horrible leader who slaughtered millions of civilians. And for having an OPINION tsk, tsk. I believe Douglas Adams said it best: All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others. So what does this mean? Simply put I was contradicting one persons opinion with my own. Don't like it? Too bad, that's argument, that's debate, that's life. Get over yourself.
AntiSean 04-30-07, 11:50 PM	That's not what I was getting at. I was saying that people who automatically decide that ________ book doesn't belong in a setting doesn't really have any excuse for doing it besides their opinion. Well, I'm afraid that you were unclear once again, as that certainly didn't come across earlier. Furthermore, I don't recall anyone 'automatically' deciding not to include any book in any setting. To use Edymnion as an example again, judging from his posts regarding the BoXD in this thread, he's pretty familiar with it's contents - that doesn't strike me as an 'automatic' rejection. I'm not sure if you're engaging in deliberate exaggeration in order to prove a point or if you're simply caught up in the moment and posting in a heightened emotional state, but it's unneccesary and detrimental to your attempt to communicate. I believe I already proved that Eberron is a world with good an evil. Who was trying to argue that it is a world *without* good and evil? There is good and evil right there in the ECS. Just like how you're wasting your time trying to get me to think I'm wasting my time? I'm not trying to get you to think you're wasting your time. I mentioned that in an earlier post, but your subsequent posts have shown that that would be a waste of my time to continue down that path. Congratulations: you get a puppy. Thanks, but that'd be a violation of the condominium bylaws, and I don't think I can convince them to make a house rule for me. His reason for not useing the book was stupid. His opinion was not. His opinion of the book was his reason for not using the book; how can his opinion not be stupid, but not using the book because of his opinion of the book be stupid? You're not making sense here. Here's an interesting idea: Sometimes people need help when they are not entirely open minded about something. Here's another interesting idea: Sometimes people don't want help, particularly when they're not entirely open minded about something. An example: Person 1: "I don't like anime." Person 2: "Oh, but have you seen Anime X and Anime Y and Anime Z? Those are the best! You should watch them, they're really change your opinion of anime!" Person 2, while his zeal and passion for the thing he likes, and desire to share that with someone else, is admirable, is in the wrong here. Person 1 didn't say "Hey, can you recommend some good anime?" Person 2, while having the best of intentions, is being insensitive at best, and a nuisance at worst. <snip> I do not want him to change his mind on the subject. I want him to try looking at a particular subject through a different lens. Given the statements he had already made regarding the subject in this thread, that seems like a rather quixotic goal to strive for. It also doesn't dovetail with your prior claims that you were sharing your opinions with other people instead. If you wish for me to go into deep methodical explanation every time I post then please refrain from pointing at me accusingly and making your posts sound like you're interrogating me. Try asking questions, it makes you come off as being friendlier. Trust me. Why do you infer that I'm interrogating you in one sentence, and then suggest that I ask questions in the next sentence? Isn't asking questions the very basis of interrogation? Since those were questions, did they make me come off as being friendlier? FIRST PROBLEM WITH YOUR LOGIC: You stated I was unclear about my post and yet you yourself are rather unclear about where your coming from. Please point out where I am being unclear, and I'll be happy to clarify. You say I'm wasting my time with this? Well congratulations as so are you. I don't feel like I'm wasting my time at all. You're saying I was unclear about my original post? Yes. That's what most of the back and forth between us in this thread has been about, hasn't it? Was I unclear about that? Hate me for expressing my own opinion in the face of another and saying I'm wasting my time when you yourself are doing nothing but wasting yours AND my time to try and get me to... Where did I say I hate you for any reason at all? You're exaggerating either for effect or out of a heightened emotional state once more. what exactly do you want me to do? Apologize to Edymnion? For what? contradicting his reason for not allowing BoXD in Eberron with a reason of my own for allowing it? Where have I said that I wanted you to apologize? This is what argument is about. <bad joke> No it's not! </bad joke> If all opinions were the same then Adolf Hitler's opinions were just as valid as anyone else's. *aoogah! aoogah!* Uh-oh, it's the Godwin alarm! Take cover, everyone! Unfortunately he's still regarded as a horrible leader who slaughtered millions of civilians. And for having an OPINION tsk, tsk. So you're saying that it's unfortunate that Adolf Hitler is regarded as a horrible leader? Wow. I believe Douglas Adams said it best: All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others. Who did he say that to, Hitler? So what does this mean? I have no idea; you went off on one heck of a tangent there. Simply put I was contradicting one persons opinion with my own. Oh. Well, thanks for explaining that, 'cause it wasn't clear at all. Next time, try to go for the simply put first, you might not have to spend so many follow-up posts explaining yourself. Trust me. Don't like it? Too bad, that's argument, that's debate, that's life. I'm kind of neutral to it. Is that still too bad? Get over yourself. I've been trying to for years, but it's not easy when I'm so damn awesome!
Edymnion 05-01-07, 08:20 AM	*eats popcorn*
AntiSean 05-01-07, 08:54 AM	*eats popcorn* While I can't deny that the crunch of popcorn is well done, I didn't think the fluff really fit with Eberron's flavor, so I've banned it from my campaign. :)
gaerfindel 05-01-07, 09:08 AM	*eats popcorn**offers Endymnion some Swedish fish in exchange for some popcorn*
sooperspook 05-01-07, 09:32 AM	Well, this thread got derailed fast... I generally disallow either of the Books of ___ because I find them badly written and in dire need of competent playtesters.
Edymnion 05-01-07, 12:20 PM	in dire need of competent playtesters.The same could be said about all WotC books.
Macrovore 05-01-07, 11:00 PM	esp. the Miniatures Handbook. and complete warrior (except for the opposite reason).
DragoonDarkfire 05-01-07, 11:26 PM	Well, I'm afraid that you were unclear once again, as that certainly didn't come across earlier. Furthermore, I don't recall anyone 'automatically' deciding not to include any book in any setting. To use Edymnion as an example again, judging from his posts regarding the BoXD in this thread, he's pretty familiar with it's contents - that doesn't strike me as an 'automatic' rejection. I'm not sure if you're engaging in deliberate exaggeration in order to prove a point or if you're simply caught up in the moment and posting in a heightened emotional state, but it's unneccesary and detrimental to your attempt to communicate. Yea whatever he decides ain't my point. You already said I was unclear and that seems to be your only arguing point at this point. In fact Mr. Edymnion is clearly simply amused by your unwillingness to let an argument drop (which I am guilty of as well so don't think of bringing it up) and our constant dribble. Do you even realize what the **** you're trying to argue for anymore? Who was trying to argue that it is a world *without* good and evil? There is good and evil right there in the ECS. And yet he said Eberron was too gray for the books. Which ironically is not being specific on something :B I'm not trying to get you to think you're wasting your time. I mentioned that in an earlier post, but your subsequent posts have shown that that would be a waste of my time to continue down that path. I don't recall you saying that. Maybe you should be more clear on the subject :B His opinion of the book was his reason for not using the book; how can his opinion not be stupid, but not using the book because of his opinion of the book be stupid? You're not making sense here. No you aren't making sense. I said his opinion wasn't stupid I said the reasoning behind his opinion was stupid. Whatever he decides is up to him as I just say what I say. If I think the reasoning behind his opinion was wrong then I'll say it, why? Because I can. :3 Here's another interesting idea: Sometimes people don't want help, particularly when they're not entirely open minded about something. Well that's not my problem now is it? When you post your opinion on the internet people will respond to it. Don't wanna listen to other peoples opinions? Fine. But to silence other people's response to that opinion is an infringement on their rights to say as they like. And if you're going to blame me about being "unclear" then please DON'T! You already said so plenty of times and it's just plain annoying now. I get you think I should be more clear about something but if you had simply IGNORED my post like how you said I should have IGNORED Edy's then we'd be right back where we were save without wasting each others time with this mindless back and forth. An example: Person 1: "I don't like anime." Person 2: "Oh, but have you seen Anime X and Anime Y and Anime Z? Those are the best! You should watch them, they're really change your opinion of anime!" Person 2, while his zeal and passion for the thing he likes, and desire to share that with someone else, is admirable, is in the wrong here. Person 1 didn't say "Hey, can you recommend some good anime?" Person 2, while having the best of intentions, is being insensitive at best, and a nuisance at worst. I agree but not for the reason you stated. Saying something like "I don't like anime" is simple, plain, and relatively straightforward. There isn't any argument here as there is simply opinionated manner. If he said "I don't like anime as the artwork is all the same, all the characters are bland emo's with huge swords and the animation sucks" then we have a reason to argue. Because he stated supposed "facts" and "reasons" for why his opinion is correct. These can be contradicted and argued with. While Person 1 may not change his opinion on Anime he will still have learned that his basic reasoning for hating anime is not as founded as normal and that there's more to anime then what he originally thought. He will learn that his argument is simply flawed and there isn't any reason for him to hate anime then simply his own feelings toward it. He still hates anime but now he knows that he hates it simply because he does, not because of emo protagonists with huge swords or strikingly similar design. Given the statements he had already made regarding the subject in this thread, that seems like a rather quixotic goal to strive for. It also doesn't dovetail with your prior claims that you were sharing your opinions with other people instead. Can't I do both? If Edy doesn't change his opinion then that's honestly fine with me. At least I can say that I got my own opinions out and simply found them to be contradicting with his own. There's nothing in the world I can do to control a persons mind (yet...) but that doesn't mean I can't damn well try. Why do you infer that I'm interrogating you in one sentence, and then suggest that I ask questions in the next sentence? Isn't asking questions the very basis of interrogation? Since those were questions, did they make me come off as being friendlier? Yes actually they did. Hows this for example? What sounds friendlier? YOU KILLED HER! DIDN'T YOU!? Or- Did you kill her? Please point out where I am being unclear, and I'll be happy to clarify. Well for one thing I don't quite get what you're trying to accomplish. Are you saying that I'm wasting my time with me posting about me contradicting Edy because the guy doesn't seem fazed by it. If anything I'm wasting more time arguing with you over the point of all this then I was with Edy. Why? Think about it like this- you said sometimes people don't want their opinions changed? Well what good are you trying to accomplish with this? That I shouldn't try and start arguments with people? Because I thought that's what forums were for 0_o I don't feel like I'm wasting my time at all. Well good for you but I unfortunately grow tired of this and my pride is keeping me from letting this argument go (yet strangely I have enough humility to admit this) so frankly I'd rather that this is finished before I get bored and simply stop posting on this topic. Which unfortunately happens more often then not for me. Yes. That's what most of the back and forth between us in this thread has been about, hasn't it? Was I unclear about that? Well that's ironic. Perhaps there's a lesson here like- "Subtext is your friend" and "Figure stuff out on your own". Where did I say I hate you for any reason at all? You're exaggerating either for effect or out of a heightened emotional state once more. Well when people argue with me I kinda assume they have a growing animosity toward me, but I suppose as long as it's civil and not- "LOL U SUCK!" I shouldn't get to emotional. My apologies for being too much of a Wilder. Where have I said that I wanted you to apologize? You were unclear about what you wanted :B <bad joke> No it's not! </bad joke> <bad joke> no u </bad joke> *aoogah! aoogah!* Uh-oh, it's the Godwin alarm! Take cover, everyone! OH NOES I PHAIL D: So you're saying that it's unfortunate that Adolf Hitler is regarded as a horrible leader? Wow. These readings are fascinating... (http://home.student.uu.se/hape2405/aabf18_sarcasm_detector.jpg) Who did he say that to, Hitler? HOW DARE YOU! Douglas Adam's is the second best thing to happen to this world since Cherry Pie. I have no idea; you went off on one heck of a tangent there. No I didn't I defined the contradiction of one opinion with another, a basic concept of argument. Oh. Well, thanks for explaining that, 'cause it wasn't clear at all. Next time, try to go for the simply put first, you might not have to spend so many follow-up posts explaining yourself. Trust me. Ya know. I probably could have saved a lot more if you didn't need to drag it out like this. Cause to be honest what was the overall point? I'm kind of neutral to it. Is that still too bad? Yes. I've been trying to for years, but it's not easy when I'm so damn awesome! *Is looking in mirror* Sorry did you say something? :confused:
Macrovore 05-01-07, 11:41 PM	both of you, stop it! As fun as it is to watch you two bicker, this thread isn't devoted to a flame war (or at least a flame skirmish). It's about the use of the Book of Exalted Deeds, and exalted characters in general, in Eberron and Eberron games. so be quiet, and try to contribute rational statements and logically supported opinions to the topic at hand.
DragoonDarkfire 05-01-07, 11:57 PM	both of you, stop it! As fun as it is to watch you two bicker, this thread isn't devoted to a flame war (or at least a flame skirmish). It's about the use of the Book of Exalted Deeds, and exalted characters in general, in Eberron and Eberron games. so be quiet, and try to contribute rational statements and logically supported opinions to the topic at hand. Well thanks for being a voice of reason. Which I humbly accept that I was at fault for arguing about something that didn't really pertain to the topic at hand. Please continue... on topic I actually have a character in an Eberron setting with a few exalted feats. My DM didn't have any problem with it.
AntiSean 05-02-07, 12:27 AM	both of you, stop it! Never!!! We'll fight them on the land, and in the sea, and in... ummm... uhh... Yeah, you've got a point. Sorry for derailing your thread, folks, and DragoonDarkfire, I'm sorry that I got a bit more persnickety with you in that last post than I meant to - while I'm a surly and pedantic old curmudgeon, I try to be (mostly) civil most of the time.
Edymnion 05-04-07, 08:32 AM	And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why the BoXD discussions are all supposed to be religated to the "Mature" boards (not like there are that many mature people on the mature boards...). :)
ORC_Tuhteth 05-04-07, 12:20 PM	This thread seems to be degenerating quickly -- time to put it down. ::click::