Giving Karrnath's martial aspect something more distinctive? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Giving Karrnath's martial aspect something more distinctive? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
01-23-08, 11:49 PM I'm thinking that Karrnath's necromantic aspect is pretty well developed, with bone knights, special Karrnathi-only undead, and all that, but their purely non-magical, martial aspect seems to be a bit underdeveloped to me. Its consquences seem to be "they have more fighters, compared to Aundair, Thrane, Breland, etc, who mostly just have warriors." That's fine, but few PCs will take levels in warrior anyway, even if they aren't Karrnathis. I'm thinking that maybe they could get a martial prestige class that is either exclusively Karrnathi or at least heavily Karrnathi. It needn't be a new class dreamed up exclusively for the occasion -- just describing some old martial prestige class as being heavily Karrnathi could work. Like, maybe kensai are an almost-exclusively Karrnathi tradition based on their reverence of the martial? Maybe bloodstorm blades were developed by Karrnathis in response to wars with Talenta halflings and their effective use of thrown weapons? I dunno.
Nived
01-24-08, 02:52 AM I like to think of the Karrnathi Warriors as tactically minded. As such I like to often give NPC Karrns the Combat Expertise feat tree, with Imp Disarm being more common than Improved Trip.

I also categorize their fighting style as strictly utilitarian. An Aundarian soldier with Improved Disarm for instance will flourish and riposte and skillfully almost artistically strip you of your blade. A Karrn with Imp Dis will bat your sword out of your freaking hand with a simple powerful strike.

Karrns do not 'brandish' swords, they know what swords are for, they are not made for brandishing they are made for killing. Karrns are not flashy fighters, they are brutal and effective ones, economy of the strike. They do not waste movements, but I digress.

Getting back to the pure mechanics at hand. We know that the once elite Emerald Claw favor heavy flails, also in the book Bound by Iron the once legendary Iron Brigade also favored flails. What do flails do well? They give bonuses to disarm and they can be used for a trip. It would be a waste for warriors or fighters to specialize with that weapon and not use it to its potential.

Why I say Improved Disarm is more common, is that the flail is hardly the national weapon of Karrnath. Five Nations mentions that Rekkenmark Academy favors the utilitarian longsword. While it doesn't give bonuses to disarm I still like to give these officers improved disarm. Karrnathi are supposed to be martial tacticians... and robbing your enemy of the ability to attack you is fairly sound.

So to sum up, I characterize Karnnathi fighting styles as brutal, and 'simple'. Not to say it isn't a complex and effective fighting style... combat expertise after all, just that they are not 'showy' fighters. They also fight dirty, they will use every tactical advantage they can, high ground, concealment, and they will take your weapon and trip your ass.

That at least is how I see them.
Kinger
01-25-08, 08:15 PM I imagine the Karrnathi soldier to be the epitome of military discipline. Sure, every able-bodied citizen of Karrnath is required to serve in the military in some fashion for a bit (shades of the Red Army, there) but it's the career soldiers that are memorable. The elite corp of ass-kickers that turn the tide of battles.

I picture something similar to a Roman legion. A Big shields, interlocked to provide as much protection to the guy next to you as it they do yourself. Use the ever-utilitarion Longsword. Save the flails for the shock troops.

They spare no thought towards looking flashy like the pompous Aundarians or seeking personal glory like the headstrong Brelish. No, they are there to do a job, and they're going to do it damn well. While the conscripts intermingle with those of the opposition in general dissarray, the career soldiers form up in a particular location and proceed on a steady path of destruction through enemy ranks towards a vital goal, be it the archery line, command structure, wizard corp, or what-have-you. They cannot be stopped without a quite concentrated effort on the part of the enemy, and that's going to give the conscripts a chance to win their part of the battle. Every step, every strike, every kill, is done in unison.

Now, the clever part. Within the center of this slowly-moving tortoise-o'-doom formation is the shocking core. When the time is right (like, say, they've begun to break through the line), the shields part and out rush the shock troops with their heavy flails. They burst into the more spaced-out ranks of the enemy and let loose with trips, disarms, and cleaves, specifically targeting the champions, officers, or other PC-esque figures.
LunarWolfPrime
01-29-08, 09:27 AM Hey if you want to look at them in a more diciplined and skill manner whyh not have some of their commanders be trainned in the White Raven school and other units be trained in the other 8 schools if you take a good look at them a squad of 9 that are trained in the paths of the sublime way are actualy a very balanced team. Not to mention the fact that I am curently working on a TOB wraith temp right now.
skrap-san
01-29-08, 11:04 AM I see the Karrns as a bit simple when it comes to equipment actually.
They all have the same standard equipment, but they have learned to make the best out of it. But they know it inn and out and can put it to greatest use in many interesting ways. And at the same time they are incredibly driven by tradition and history.
kelvinaw273
01-31-08, 09:44 AM The joke has been made before that comparing the five nations to the WWII nations:

Karrn = Germany: Efficient, professional well-trained army with good quality equipment that gave them a definite edge. Tactically very sound and very well led.

Breland = Anglo-Americans: On average less well-trained but making good use of elite corps. Not always with the best equipment or men but they have an awful lot of both.

Aundair = Italy: Great military tradition but more concerned with appearance than effectiveness.

Thrane = France: Strong army but tactical and strategic thinking rooted in the last era. Very inspired, and morale hard to break.

Cyre = Poland: A military tradition to match the rest but sadly in a terrible strategic position, they largely turn into the land everyone else fights over.

Thinking about it, you could make a great game of Diplomacy or Risk using the Khorvair nations ...
JulesCARV
02-01-08, 12:04 AM Hmm... I'm thinking maybe the Purple Dragon Knight could be converted into a Karrnath-only PrC, along the lines of a Rekkenmark elite officer. Although get rid of the alignment restrictions.

The only problem is that the abilities granted by the PDK seem kinda lackluster.

Eh... hmm... maybe some tactical feats like Combat Brute or Shock Trooper could be Rekkenmark tactics, and people who take them would be required to either be Karrnathi soldiers or to have some access to experienced Karrnathi trainers or somesuch?

Perhaps the FR regional militia feat could be Karrnath only for Eberron?

Just throwing out ideas.
kelvinaw273
02-10-08, 09:33 AM What is the mark of a good officer?

Is it to fight brilliantly well? No.

Is it to be tactically and strategically brilliant? Maybe, but competence is all that is really required.

Is it to inspire others, lead fearlessly and be leader of men? Yes.

Forget combat feats, a good officer needs the ability to inspire their followers, give orders and have a few extra skill points to add to strategy and tactics. This is what I would expect of an officer from the Rekkenmark elite. They only have to be adequate at actually fighting; on the battlefield where the sword is king, the main difference between winning and losing is the discipline and morale of the soldiers. The less able army can win if it just holds together long enough (a classic example would the Roman army at Alesia).
Edymnion
02-11-08, 12:52 PM See, I would have just made a regional package.
"Karnnathi's all receive at least basic military training. Most have Martial Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Focus for feats, and 1 rank in Knowledge (Warfare)."
Ashlock
02-11-08, 01:24 PM I'm with Edymnion. Give the populace an overall martial bent rather than trying to establish a PrC. It's noted in one of the books (possibly The Five Nations) that military service is required of just about all citizens of Karrnath, so that would give even most NPCs some knowledge of war (even if that's just some "boot camp" time).

That said, isn't there a knight (core class) that would serve what you're talking about? A class meant to be a leader on the battlefield.
Karon_the_Orange
02-11-08, 03:48 PM I would think Marshall is closer than the Knight for leading in battle.
Ashlock
02-11-08, 03:50 PM Right. But that's from the Miniature's Handbook, right? I never did get a look at that class. Any good?
Karon_the_Orange
02-11-08, 04:28 PM Bard BAB progression, 2 good saves, has auras that can give bonuses to combat abilities and saves.

I think it would work well for Karnnath. Gives more of a drill instructor type of vibe, more interested in results than in following specific rules.

Knights have to obey a code, etc.
Ashlock
02-11-08, 04:34 PM The marshal sounds appropriate, but I don't think the knight any less so. Karrnath, more than any of the Five Nations, is the most militaristic, hierarchy-minded, and (I personally think) the most lawful. Heck, they already have bone knights. :) But yeah, having leader-soldiers adhering to a code seems appropriate.

Probably a good place for both marshals and knights, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 01-23-08, 11:49 PM	I'm thinking that Karrnath's necromantic aspect is pretty well developed, with bone knights, special Karrnathi-only undead, and all that, but their purely non-magical, martial aspect seems to be a bit underdeveloped to me. Its consquences seem to be "they have more fighters, compared to Aundair, Thrane, Breland, etc, who mostly just have warriors." That's fine, but few PCs will take levels in warrior anyway, even if they aren't Karrnathis. I'm thinking that maybe they could get a martial prestige class that is either exclusively Karrnathi or at least heavily Karrnathi. It needn't be a new class dreamed up exclusively for the occasion -- just describing some old martial prestige class as being heavily Karrnathi could work. Like, maybe kensai are an almost-exclusively Karrnathi tradition based on their reverence of the martial? Maybe bloodstorm blades were developed by Karrnathis in response to wars with Talenta halflings and their effective use of thrown weapons? I dunno.
Nived 01-24-08, 02:52 AM	I like to think of the Karrnathi Warriors as tactically minded. As such I like to often give NPC Karrns the Combat Expertise feat tree, with Imp Disarm being more common than Improved Trip. I also categorize their fighting style as strictly utilitarian. An Aundarian soldier with Improved Disarm for instance will flourish and riposte and skillfully almost artistically strip you of your blade. A Karrn with Imp Dis will bat your sword out of your freaking hand with a simple powerful strike. Karrns do not 'brandish' swords, they know what swords are for, they are not made for brandishing they are made for killing. Karrns are not flashy fighters, they are brutal and effective ones, economy of the strike. They do not waste movements, but I digress. Getting back to the pure mechanics at hand. We know that the once elite Emerald Claw favor heavy flails, also in the book Bound by Iron the once legendary Iron Brigade also favored flails. What do flails do well? They give bonuses to disarm and they can be used for a trip. It would be a waste for warriors or fighters to specialize with that weapon and not use it to its potential. Why I say Improved Disarm is more common, is that the flail is hardly the national weapon of Karrnath. Five Nations mentions that Rekkenmark Academy favors the utilitarian longsword. While it doesn't give bonuses to disarm I still like to give these officers improved disarm. Karrnathi are supposed to be martial tacticians... and robbing your enemy of the ability to attack you is fairly sound. So to sum up, I characterize Karnnathi fighting styles as brutal, and 'simple'. Not to say it isn't a complex and effective fighting style... combat expertise after all, just that they are not 'showy' fighters. They also fight dirty, they will use every tactical advantage they can, high ground, concealment, and they will take your weapon and trip your ass. That at least is how I see them.
Kinger 01-25-08, 08:15 PM	I imagine the Karrnathi soldier to be the epitome of military discipline. Sure, every able-bodied citizen of Karrnath is required to serve in the military in some fashion for a bit (shades of the Red Army, there) but it's the career soldiers that are memorable. The elite corp of ass-kickers that turn the tide of battles. I picture something similar to a Roman legion. A Big shields, interlocked to provide as much protection to the guy next to you as it they do yourself. Use the ever-utilitarion Longsword. Save the flails for the shock troops. They spare no thought towards looking flashy like the pompous Aundarians or seeking personal glory like the headstrong Brelish. No, they are there to do a job, and they're going to do it damn well. While the conscripts intermingle with those of the opposition in general dissarray, the career soldiers form up in a particular location and proceed on a steady path of destruction through enemy ranks towards a vital goal, be it the archery line, command structure, wizard corp, or what-have-you. They cannot be stopped without a quite concentrated effort on the part of the enemy, and that's going to give the conscripts a chance to win their part of the battle. Every step, every strike, every kill, is done in unison. Now, the clever part. Within the center of this slowly-moving tortoise-o'-doom formation is the shocking core. When the time is right (like, say, they've begun to break through the line), the shields part and out rush the shock troops with their heavy flails. They burst into the more spaced-out ranks of the enemy and let loose with trips, disarms, and cleaves, specifically targeting the champions, officers, or other PC-esque figures.
LunarWolfPrime 01-29-08, 09:27 AM	Hey if you want to look at them in a more diciplined and skill manner whyh not have some of their commanders be trainned in the White Raven school and other units be trained in the other 8 schools if you take a good look at them a squad of 9 that are trained in the paths of the sublime way are actualy a very balanced team. Not to mention the fact that I am curently working on a TOB wraith temp right now.
skrap-san 01-29-08, 11:04 AM	I see the Karrns as a bit simple when it comes to equipment actually. They all have the same standard equipment, but they have learned to make the best out of it. But they know it inn and out and can put it to greatest use in many interesting ways. And at the same time they are incredibly driven by tradition and history.
kelvinaw273 01-31-08, 09:44 AM	The joke has been made before that comparing the five nations to the WWII nations: Karrn = Germany: Efficient, professional well-trained army with good quality equipment that gave them a definite edge. Tactically very sound and very well led. Breland = Anglo-Americans: On average less well-trained but making good use of elite corps. Not always with the best equipment or men but they have an awful lot of both. Aundair = Italy: Great military tradition but more concerned with appearance than effectiveness. Thrane = France: Strong army but tactical and strategic thinking rooted in the last era. Very inspired, and morale hard to break. Cyre = Poland: A military tradition to match the rest but sadly in a terrible strategic position, they largely turn into the land everyone else fights over. Thinking about it, you could make a great game of Diplomacy or Risk using the Khorvair nations ...
JulesCARV 02-01-08, 12:04 AM	Hmm... I'm thinking maybe the Purple Dragon Knight could be converted into a Karrnath-only PrC, along the lines of a Rekkenmark elite officer. Although get rid of the alignment restrictions. The only problem is that the abilities granted by the PDK seem kinda lackluster. Eh... hmm... maybe some tactical feats like Combat Brute or Shock Trooper could be Rekkenmark tactics, and people who take them would be required to either be Karrnathi soldiers or to have some access to experienced Karrnathi trainers or somesuch? Perhaps the FR regional militia feat could be Karrnath only for Eberron? Just throwing out ideas.
kelvinaw273 02-10-08, 09:33 AM	What is the mark of a good officer? Is it to fight brilliantly well? No. Is it to be tactically and strategically brilliant? Maybe, but competence is all that is really required. Is it to inspire others, lead fearlessly and be leader of men? Yes. Forget combat feats, a good officer needs the ability to inspire their followers, give orders and have a few extra skill points to add to strategy and tactics. This is what I would expect of an officer from the Rekkenmark elite. They only have to be adequate at actually fighting; on the battlefield where the sword is king, the main difference between winning and losing is the discipline and morale of the soldiers. The less able army can win if it just holds together long enough (a classic example would the Roman army at Alesia).
Edymnion 02-11-08, 12:52 PM	See, I would have just made a regional package. "Karnnathi's all receive at least basic military training. Most have Martial Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Focus for feats, and 1 rank in Knowledge (Warfare)."
Ashlock 02-11-08, 01:24 PM	I'm with Edymnion. Give the populace an overall martial bent rather than trying to establish a PrC. It's noted in one of the books (possibly The Five Nations) that military service is required of just about all citizens of Karrnath, so that would give even most NPCs some knowledge of war (even if that's just some "boot camp" time). That said, isn't there a knight (core class) that would serve what you're talking about? A class meant to be a leader on the battlefield.
Karon_the_Orange 02-11-08, 03:48 PM	I would think Marshall is closer than the Knight for leading in battle.
Ashlock 02-11-08, 03:50 PM	Right. But that's from the Miniature's Handbook, right? I never did get a look at that class. Any good?
Karon_the_Orange 02-11-08, 04:28 PM	Bard BAB progression, 2 good saves, has auras that can give bonuses to combat abilities and saves. I think it would work well for Karnnath. Gives more of a drill instructor type of vibe, more interested in results than in following specific rules. Knights have to obey a code, etc.
Ashlock 02-11-08, 04:34 PM	The marshal sounds appropriate, but I don't think the knight any less so. Karrnath, more than any of the Five Nations, is the most militaristic, hierarchy-minded, and (I personally think) the most lawful. Heck, they already have bone knights. :) But yeah, having leader-soldiers adhering to a code seems appropriate. Probably a good place for both marshals and knights, though.