Giving Warforged a racial bonus to strength [Archive] - Wizards Community

Giving Warforged a racial bonus to strength [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
enlightened
02-26-07, 11:34 PM It has never really set well with me that warforged aren't (on the average) any stronger that normal humans.

I'm not dead set on it or anything, but I have been toying around with the idea of changing the warforged racial modifiers in my game to be....

STR +4 DEX -2 CON +2 INT -2 WIS -2 CHA -2

This feels like it fits the theme of living construct a little better, but what you think?

The player that is planning on playing a warforged has said that he is OK with it, but I want to get some more opinions about it before I try it out in game.
JulesCARV
02-27-07, 12:06 AM It's not bad as a variant, but I'd rather keep the option for regular warforged, just so that warforged rogues, wizards, psions, artificers, etc. can be reasonably good. As you've statted them out, you'd have to be a pretty hard-core "mechanics be damned!" roleplayer to play anything outside the "fighter" archetype (and related classes). Not that there's anything wrong with being a pretty hard-core "mechanics be damned!" roleplayer -- just that that's not how most people are.
The White Sorcerer
02-27-07, 01:14 AM It has never really set well with me that warforged aren't (on the average) any stronger that normal humans.

But they are. Compare the average human soldier to the average warforged soldier:

Human: 1st-level warrior; Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8
Warforged: 2nd-level fighter; Str 15, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 6
enlightened
02-27-07, 02:59 AM But they are. Compare the average human soldier to the average warforged soldier:

Human: 1st-level warrior; Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8
Warforged: 2nd-level fighter; Str 15, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 6

If you give them the elite array, then yes. Do you give all the warforged in your world the elite array?

Doing it that way is one idea, but so far, in my world, I have worked under the assumption that the average person looks more like this:

Human: 1st-level warrior; Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10

Warforged: 2nd level fighter; Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8

I have only given the elite array to people who are significant to the story (not everyone in the world), but as I type this I'm starting to think that maybe I should just assume that all warforged are innately elite. That works for me, too.

Also, I have a side question.
Do most DMs assume that every single person in the world has one of the arrays like, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 or 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 ? Or do you see the average person as 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 ?
The White Sorcerer
02-27-07, 04:29 AM If you give them the elite array, then yes. Do you give all the warforged in your world the elite array?

I give all characters and creatures with PC classes the elite array. I give all characters and creatures with NPC classes the ordinary array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8).

Check the Monster Manual. All creatures with NPC classes have the ordinary array, while all creatures with PC classes have the elite array. Only classless creatures have the monster array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10).
Kid SixXx
02-27-07, 08:04 AM As you've statted them out, you'd have to be a pretty hard-core "mechanics be damned!" roleplayer to play anything outside the "fighter" archetype (and related classes). Not that there's anything wrong with being a pretty hard-core "mechanics be damned!" roleplayer -- just that that's not how most people are.

Yep, the array works well for fighters & maybe barbarians but does tend to gimp every other class.

So much for those "logisitical" models (artificers, clerics, wizards) designed to support the front line fighters, or the "cavalry" units (rogues, rangers) designed to be scouts or recon units.
enlightened
02-27-07, 08:10 AM I give all characters and creatures with PC classes the elite array. I give all characters and creatures with NPC classes the ordinary array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8).

Check the Monster Manual. All creatures with NPC classes have the ordinary array, while all creatures with PC classes have the elite array. Only classless creatures have the monster array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10).

After thinking about it, I do agree that it is a good idea to give all warforged the elite array. However, all the monster manual (p. 290) says about it is that.....

The non-elite array is most appropriate for NPC classes and the elite array is most appropriate for PC classes. It doesn't say that they are automatically all assumed to have it.
enlightened
02-27-07, 08:12 AM Yep, the array works well for fighters & maybe barbarians but does tend to gimp every other class.

So much for those "logisitical" models (artificers, clerics, wizards) designed to support the front line fighters, or the "cavalry" units (rogues, rangers) designed to be scouts or recon units.

Yeah, so, I think that if I actually use this I will keep the standard ability modifiers as an option they can choose.

However, I can see now that just assuming that they all have the elite array also does the trick.
Vharuck
02-27-07, 04:27 PM Why the +2 to Int?
tallric_kruush
02-27-07, 05:00 PM Why the +2 to Int?

That's INT -2. You probably saw the plus two for the CON.

I'm not one to usually jump into these discussions, but I'll give an opinion on this one, since I've thought of this in passing before.

How about +2 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 WIS, -2 CHA.

A simple trade of two Dex for two Str seems a little less gimpy and well balanced as well. A bonus of +4 STR just seems a bit much to me, even if it has been, in theory, balanced. With the type of build these Ability modifiers would encourage (heavily armored fighter type seems one likely choice) the -2 DEX is a small thing and the -2 INT almost irrelevant. Few min/maxers would ever choose any other LA +0 race for a melee damage dealer if you gave the Warforged a +4 STR at first level. It would be too good to pass up. Plus, as you've noted, it pretty much gimps the race for any other use. The more moderate distribution above might not be so bad.
Edymnion
02-27-07, 08:06 PM If you give them the elite array, then yes. Do you give all the warforged in your world the elite array?Yes. Like was said, they have PC levels. That makes them some of the most elite warriors in the setting by default.The non-elite array is most appropriate for NPC classes and the elite array is most appropriate for PC classes. It doesn't say that they are automatically all assumed to have it.Look at it the other way around. If it is most appropriate to do it, then not doing it would be the least appropriate thing to do. I mean, its either or, elite array or normal array. Either its appropriate, or its innappropriate.

Anyway, the thing that makes a good soldier is not how hard he can hit, but how long he can keep going. The WF do not tire, and they can take more of a pounding than a human can, meaning their useful lifespan is much longer than a human trooper, which makes them a better choice for a soldier, even before you add in the elite array and PC levels.
enlightened
02-27-07, 08:20 PM I mean, its either or, elite array or normal array. Either its appropriate, or its innappropriate.

There is also the option of all 10s, but I understand what you are saying.

I'm not saying that it is good or bad, but I want to clarify: So, most DMs are giving even first level commoners 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 instead of 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 ? I personally never did it that way, but I can see the argument for it.

I guess I just did it that way for the sake of simplicity. They are average people so they are average in every way.

At any rate, I can see now that an automatic racial bonus to strength isn't really necessary. I like the idea that the very nature of their existance makes them elite, so they can just put their 15 in STR.
ArcTan
02-27-07, 09:28 PM There is also the option of all 10s, but I understand what you are saying.

I'm not saying that it is good or bad, but I want to clarify: So, most DMs are giving even first level commoners 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 instead of 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 ? I personally never did it that way, but I can see the argument for it.

10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 is *so* average it seems unlikely. No Commoners are even the slightest bit stronger than they are smart, or more charismatic than they are tough?

In any case, the reason for the "most appropriate" terminology is that, as DM, you have the right to set any NPC stats to anything you want. In theory the actual distribution of stats in the world is on a 3d6, but that means that any crazy array of stats you want to give an NPC is *possible*, just unlikely.
Hellcow
02-28-07, 01:58 AM At any rate, I can see now that an automatic racial bonus to strength isn't really necessary. I like the idea that the very nature of their existance makes them elite, so they can just put their 15 in STR.
As a side note, TWS is quoting me in saying that the typical warforged soldier was a 2nd-level fighter with the elite array. In terms of sheer numbers, the warforged made up a small percentage of the number of troops fielded in the war. In my opinion, one of the value of the warforged (aside from being tireless troops with no need for support lines) was the fact that they were elite forces right off the line... represented by the common use of PC classes and the elite array. When much of your army is made up of first-level commoners and warriors with simple weapons and leather armor, being able to simply purchase a set of adamantine-body 2nd-level warforged fighters could be extremely useful for a particular task.

So, as TWS originally suggests, a warforged fighter WILL be stronger than his typical human counterpart, and a warforged scout will have a better Dexterity - because they have the elite array to make this possible. They may not be stronger than the elite squad of human pikebreakers, each of whom has been chosen for their physical might (IE, elite-array humans with a 15 str) - but a) such people aren't typical, and b) the warforged will still have a higher Con and tireless endurance.
Logos7
02-28-07, 09:37 AM and also strickly speaking, the chances of your "Perfectly Ordinary" Person actually happening are small

I use Elite Array and Ordinary Array , Never the Monster Array for anything I build. Ordinary Array is still average mod 0 , Being so Average(6 10's) is not Average ( The Mod's should form a Bellcurve based around 10 or 10.5. If you look at the area under the 10-11 and combare it to the area from 8-10 and 11-13 you should get a preety good idea of the average possibility of any of those stats if my stats knowledge is at all still with me)

Logos
sabretooth_
02-28-07, 03:21 PM I like this idea at character creation the person gets to choose one stat to increase ( either str, dex, con) and still take the regular negatives. I think this would work well and it would give a sense of warforged being made for different things

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
enlightened 02-26-07, 11:34 PM	It has never really set well with me that warforged aren't (on the average) any stronger that normal humans. I'm not dead set on it or anything, but I have been toying around with the idea of changing the warforged racial modifiers in my game to be.... STR +4 DEX -2 CON +2 INT -2 WIS -2 CHA -2 This feels like it fits the theme of living construct a little better, but what you think? The player that is planning on playing a warforged has said that he is OK with it, but I want to get some more opinions about it before I try it out in game.
JulesCARV 02-27-07, 12:06 AM	It's not bad as a variant, but I'd rather keep the option for regular warforged, just so that warforged rogues, wizards, psions, artificers, etc. can be reasonably good. As you've statted them out, you'd have to be a pretty hard-core "mechanics be damned!" roleplayer to play anything outside the "fighter" archetype (and related classes). Not that there's anything wrong with being a pretty hard-core "mechanics be damned!" roleplayer -- just that that's not how most people are.
The White Sorcerer 02-27-07, 01:14 AM	It has never really set well with me that warforged aren't (on the average) any stronger that normal humans. But they are. Compare the average human soldier to the average warforged soldier: Human: 1st-level warrior; Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8 Warforged: 2nd-level fighter; Str 15, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 6
enlightened 02-27-07, 02:59 AM	But they are. Compare the average human soldier to the average warforged soldier: Human: 1st-level warrior; Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8 Warforged: 2nd-level fighter; Str 15, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 6 If you give them the elite array, then yes. Do you give all the warforged in your world the elite array? Doing it that way is one idea, but so far, in my world, I have worked under the assumption that the average person looks more like this: Human: 1st-level warrior; Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10 Warforged: 2nd level fighter; Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8 I have only given the elite array to people who are significant to the story (not everyone in the world), but as I type this I'm starting to think that maybe I should just assume that all warforged are innately elite. That works for me, too. Also, I have a side question. Do most DMs assume that every single person in the world has one of the arrays like, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 or 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 ? Or do you see the average person as 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 ?
The White Sorcerer 02-27-07, 04:29 AM	If you give them the elite array, then yes. Do you give all the warforged in your world the elite array? I give all characters and creatures with PC classes the elite array. I give all characters and creatures with NPC classes the ordinary array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8). Check the Monster Manual. All creatures with NPC classes have the ordinary array, while all creatures with PC classes have the elite array. Only classless creatures have the monster array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10).
Kid SixXx 02-27-07, 08:04 AM	As you've statted them out, you'd have to be a pretty hard-core "mechanics be damned!" roleplayer to play anything outside the "fighter" archetype (and related classes). Not that there's anything wrong with being a pretty hard-core "mechanics be damned!" roleplayer -- just that that's not how most people are. Yep, the array works well for fighters & maybe barbarians but does tend to gimp every other class. So much for those "logisitical" models (artificers, clerics, wizards) designed to support the front line fighters, or the "cavalry" units (rogues, rangers) designed to be scouts or recon units.
enlightened 02-27-07, 08:10 AM	I give all characters and creatures with PC classes the elite array. I give all characters and creatures with NPC classes the ordinary array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8). Check the Monster Manual. All creatures with NPC classes have the ordinary array, while all creatures with PC classes have the elite array. Only classless creatures have the monster array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10). After thinking about it, I do agree that it is a good idea to give all warforged the elite array. However, all the monster manual (p. 290) says about it is that..... The non-elite array is most appropriate for NPC classes and the elite array is most appropriate for PC classes. It doesn't say that they are automatically all assumed to have it.
enlightened 02-27-07, 08:12 AM	Yep, the array works well for fighters & maybe barbarians but does tend to gimp every other class. So much for those "logisitical" models (artificers, clerics, wizards) designed to support the front line fighters, or the "cavalry" units (rogues, rangers) designed to be scouts or recon units. Yeah, so, I think that if I actually use this I will keep the standard ability modifiers as an option they can choose. However, I can see now that just assuming that they all have the elite array also does the trick.
Vharuck 02-27-07, 04:27 PM	Why the +2 to Int?
tallric_kruush 02-27-07, 05:00 PM	Why the +2 to Int? That's INT -2. You probably saw the plus two for the CON. I'm not one to usually jump into these discussions, but I'll give an opinion on this one, since I've thought of this in passing before. How about +2 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 WIS, -2 CHA. A simple trade of two Dex for two Str seems a little less gimpy and well balanced as well. A bonus of +4 STR just seems a bit much to me, even if it has been, in theory, balanced. With the type of build these Ability modifiers would encourage (heavily armored fighter type seems one likely choice) the -2 DEX is a small thing and the -2 INT almost irrelevant. Few min/maxers would ever choose any other LA +0 race for a melee damage dealer if you gave the Warforged a +4 STR at first level. It would be too good to pass up. Plus, as you've noted, it pretty much gimps the race for any other use. The more moderate distribution above might not be so bad.
Edymnion 02-27-07, 08:06 PM	If you give them the elite array, then yes. Do you give all the warforged in your world the elite array?Yes. Like was said, they have PC levels. That makes them some of the most elite warriors in the setting by default.The non-elite array is most appropriate for NPC classes and the elite array is most appropriate for PC classes. It doesn't say that they are automatically all assumed to have it.Look at it the other way around. If it is most appropriate to do it, then not doing it would be the least appropriate thing to do. I mean, its either or, elite array or normal array. Either its appropriate, or its innappropriate. Anyway, the thing that makes a good soldier is not how hard he can hit, but how long he can keep going. The WF do not tire, and they can take more of a pounding than a human can, meaning their useful lifespan is much longer than a human trooper, which makes them a better choice for a soldier, even before you add in the elite array and PC levels.
enlightened 02-27-07, 08:20 PM	I mean, its either or, elite array or normal array. Either its appropriate, or its innappropriate. There is also the option of all 10s, but I understand what you are saying. I'm not saying that it is good or bad, but I want to clarify: So, most DMs are giving even first level commoners 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 instead of 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 ? I personally never did it that way, but I can see the argument for it. I guess I just did it that way for the sake of simplicity. They are average people so they are average in every way. At any rate, I can see now that an automatic racial bonus to strength isn't really necessary. I like the idea that the very nature of their existance makes them elite, so they can just put their 15 in STR.
ArcTan 02-27-07, 09:28 PM	There is also the option of all 10s, but I understand what you are saying. I'm not saying that it is good or bad, but I want to clarify: So, most DMs are giving even first level commoners 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 instead of 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 ? I personally never did it that way, but I can see the argument for it. 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 is so average it seems unlikely. No Commoners are even the slightest bit stronger than they are smart, or more charismatic than they are tough? In any case, the reason for the "most appropriate" terminology is that, as DM, you have the right to set any NPC stats to anything you want. In theory the actual distribution of stats in the world is on a 3d6, but that means that any crazy array of stats you want to give an NPC is possible, just unlikely.
Hellcow 02-28-07, 01:58 AM	At any rate, I can see now that an automatic racial bonus to strength isn't really necessary. I like the idea that the very nature of their existance makes them elite, so they can just put their 15 in STR. As a side note, TWS is quoting me in saying that the typical warforged soldier was a 2nd-level fighter with the elite array. In terms of sheer numbers, the warforged made up a small percentage of the number of troops fielded in the war. In my opinion, one of the value of the warforged (aside from being tireless troops with no need for support lines) was the fact that they were elite forces right off the line... represented by the common use of PC classes and the elite array. When much of your army is made up of first-level commoners and warriors with simple weapons and leather armor, being able to simply purchase a set of adamantine-body 2nd-level warforged fighters could be extremely useful for a particular task. So, as TWS originally suggests, a warforged fighter WILL be stronger than his typical human counterpart, and a warforged scout will have a better Dexterity - because they have the elite array to make this possible. They may not be stronger than the elite squad of human pikebreakers, each of whom has been chosen for their physical might (IE, elite-array humans with a 15 str) - but a) such people aren't typical, and b) the warforged will still have a higher Con and tireless endurance.
Logos7 02-28-07, 09:37 AM	and also strickly speaking, the chances of your "Perfectly Ordinary" Person actually happening are small I use Elite Array and Ordinary Array , Never the Monster Array for anything I build. Ordinary Array is still average mod 0 , Being so Average(6 10's) is not Average ( The Mod's should form a Bellcurve based around 10 or 10.5. If you look at the area under the 10-11 and combare it to the area from 8-10 and 11-13 you should get a preety good idea of the average possibility of any of those stats if my stats knowledge is at all still with me) Logos
sabretooth_ 02-28-07, 03:21 PM	I like this idea at character creation the person gets to choose one stat to increase ( either str, dex, con) and still take the regular negatives. I think this would work well and it would give a sense of warforged being made for different things