Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tvar1 07-11-07, 07:00 PM	So do all these different varieties of elves exist in Valenar/Aerenal? I usually think of these different kinds of elves as different "races", but I assume the elves on Aerenal are all of the same "race". I could, of course, be wrong on that. What do people thing? How do you usually play it? Do Wood elves and Gray elves from Valenar exist side by side?
Alex_ 07-11-07, 07:15 PM	Aerenal and Valenar Elves are indeed all PHB Elves. There is an optional rule for Valenar to get th scimitar instead of the longsword as an automatic weapon proficiency, and the Valenar Double Scimitar is a martial weapon to them, but that's it as far as differences go. And Drow are a considered a different species from Elves. Aside from those two, there are no other types of Elves in Eberron. There are suggestions for where to place some subraces like Chaos Gnomes in the Player's Guide to Faerun book, but nothing on Elves. I personally don't use the favored class feature or racial weapon proficiencies. Goes a long way in getting new players to avoid pigeon-holing the races. Doesn't seem to stop many people, seeing as most people choose Human for the extra feat, and the appeal of Elves tends to be more than the weapon proficiencies. Things like bonuses against specific enemies are "in one's blood" or instinctual rather than cultural.
Dark_Rhapsody 07-11-07, 07:32 PM	You can put any race in Eberron. It seems possible that when the elves migrated from Xen'drik after the fall of the giants, that other factions went other places, becoming other elven races. Just use your imagination.
tvar1 07-11-07, 07:52 PM	Well yeah, I definitely think the other kinds of elves are somewhere in Eberron (everything in D&D is in Eberron, and especially since the kind of elves I listed are "core", being in the MM). I guess it makes the most sense to just keep the elves of Valenar/Arenal to the PHB elves. If someone wants to play another kind in my game, they can be from somewhere else in Khorvaire, it should be no problem to figure out where. I was mostly just wondering if there was anything in the official material that mentioned this (I haven't come across anything). I expect the developers must have at least thought about it since they are in the MM.
Alex_ 07-11-07, 07:55 PM	IIRC, Kieth just doesn't have much love for subraces.
JulesCARV 07-11-07, 08:23 PM	My personal approach is to say that most Khorvaire, Aerenal, and Valenar elves are PHB elves, but that the Monster Manual subraces exist, but not in seperate cultures. If you allow simplified Mendelian genetics to be used as an explanation for things, I think of maybe 15% of elves (throughout all three of the aforementioned elven cultures) as carrying wood elf genes, which are recessive, so maybe 2% of elves are actually phenotypically wood elves. Two parents neither of whom are wood elves might have a wood elf child. Similar logic applies to grey and wild elves. (What about an elf with both wild elf and grey elf alleles? For some reason or another, they can't live, and die as early embryos of autoimmune problems or somesuch) Many elves are not even aware that these traits exist (even members of the subraces themselves), and figure that someone with grey elf traits is just a smart but weak elf. (Of course, not all grey elves are even very smart or weak: a 14 int regular elf is smarter than most grey elves.) Among those who are aware, they don't really think of them as being different races or anything -- just traits like blue eyes or brown eyes curly hair or straight hair, etc. If you don't like simplified Mendelian-style genetics in a fantasy game, just use a magical equivalent to what I said. After all, things are largely similar in practice even if the genetics is rather different at the fundamental level (I mean, there are variations like straight hair vs. curly hair, right?). That way, someone can be a wild elf if they want, but you don't have to say that there's some wild elf tribe living somewhere in Xen'drik.
Edymnion 07-11-07, 08:30 PM	You can put any race in Eberron. It seems possible that when the elves migrated from Xen'drik after the fall of the giants, that other factions went other places, becoming other elven races. Just use your imagination.Yes, you can put just about anything into Eberron. By default though? No, there are no subraces in Eberron. An elf is an elf is an elf. It doesn't matter where they live, what their society is like, or anything else. Mechanically/biologically, they are all elves. Just like there are no human subraces, there are no elven/dwarven/etc subraces. Everything is a cultural differance.
Alex_ 07-11-07, 08:34 PM	Or the classic excuse, "A wizard did it." The Giants of Xen'drik were well versed in arcane magic and set a precedent by creating Drow from Elven stock for a specific task. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say they created other varieties of Elves to make better slaves in other areas. If you're going to try and use genetics, it's just ridiculous that the longest lived species with the lowest reproduction rate, that is largely relegated to one region, culturally stagnant, and adverse to introducing genetic variety to the point where inbreeding is common (see the ECS entry on Aerenal) would show the greatest genetic variety. This is one of those instances where magic happens to be the more reasonable and workable solution.
Hideous Phidias 07-11-07, 11:36 PM	Elves are elves, are sub-races even needed? I mean if you have a player who wants to use the wood elf for his Valanar character, because of the different stats, and another who wants to use the standard for a dragonmarked character is it really that big of a deal. Sub- races can be useful tools for players to make characters better and fit a call better. My point is sub-races yse them or not don't change the setting unless, you as a DM want them to by changing the back stories of the races.
yrogerg 07-11-07, 11:57 PM	Yes, you can put just about anything into Eberron. By default though? No, there are no subraces in Eberron. An elf is an elf is an elf. It doesn't matter where they live, what their society is like, or anything else. Mechanically/biologically, they are all elves. Just like there are no human subraces, there are no elven/dwarven/etc subraces. Everything is a cultural differance. Empty Vessels? :P
Rerecros 07-12-07, 02:02 AM	Empty Vessels?:P Empty vessals are a separate race, they started as human, but they got some elf and fiend in them too.
Cifer 07-12-07, 03:09 AM	Well yeah, I definitely think the other kinds of elves are somewhere in Eberron (everything in D&D is in Eberron, and especially since the kind of elves I listed are "core", being in the MM). Not quite. Everything in D&D can have a place in Eberron. Whether it's a good idea to seek and fill that place is another question entirely. In this case, I'd say you should just stick to the base races.
The White Sorcerer 07-12-07, 03:26 AM	IIRC, Kieth just doesn't have much love for subraces. "The thing is, I don't hate subraces." —Keith Baker Someone has this quote in their sig. I can definately see myself using subraces in Eberron. However, there must be something special about them. Wood elves, for example, aren't just elves who live in forests, they're elves who escaped Xen'drik to Lamannia instead of Aerenal. I also have nothing against those DMs who just make Khorvaire elves high elves, Valenar elves wood elves, and Aerenal elves gray elves. It's just not what I'd do.
yrogerg 07-12-07, 07:08 AM	Empty vessals are a separate race, they started as human, but they got some elf and fiend in them too. They are, however, most definitely Humanoid (human, psionic). Mongrelfolk (RoD) are even more heavily mixed, and they're still a subrace of human.
The White Sorcerer 07-12-07, 07:18 AM	Mongrelfolk (RoD) are even more heavily mixed, and they're still a subrace of human. Which sucks. They used to have their own subtype. Why should they be humans? Why would a mongrelman have human blood above all others?
Alex_ 07-12-07, 12:09 PM	"The thing is, I don't hate subraces." —Keith Baker But how much affinity does he have for them, especially in regards to their inclusion in the Eberron setting? You don't have to hate something to not have much love for it.
Alex_ 07-12-07, 12:20 PM	Neanderthals from Frostburn are also a human Subrace. There aren't any Core Human Subraces though, and in Core, Elven Subraces have a number and variety that the others simply lack. If you introduced all subraces, you would get Elves that enjoyed some kind of synergy bonus or mechanical advantage in just about every class/role. The other subrace options are far more limited. There's no Halfling that's a better melee fighter (like the Wood/Wild Elf), or a Dwarf that's a better Wizard (Like the Gray Elf), or an Orc that's a better skill monkey/social manipulator (Drow).
Donald_Cannith 07-12-07, 12:32 PM	I fee las though one ofthe cool thnigs about eberron is every race has its own unique role and with goblinoids and orcs being opened up as options, in additon of course to arforged, Changelings, Kalashtar and Shifters we have all the extra options we need. Besides, I am happy with elves not being as cheesy as they are in every other setting. Now you may not be, but I feel setting wise subraces are inappropriate.
Kreistor2 07-12-07, 01:33 PM	I like Grey elves as Aereni leaders. Wild Elves in the Eldeen. Wood Elves amoung the Valenar. And Aquatics on the coast of Aerenal acting as navy/coast guard.
JulesCARV 07-12-07, 03:50 PM	Most human subraces, I believe, are found in Races of Destiny.
The White Sorcerer 07-12-07, 04:14 PM	But how much affinity does he have for them, especially in regards to their inclusion in the Eberron setting? You don't have to hate something to not have much love for it. What does "not have much love for" mean other than "dislike" or "hate"?
Alex_ 07-12-07, 04:23 PM	What does "not have much love for" mean other than "dislike" or "hate"? It means that you don't go out of your way to hurt or hinder something, but neither are you very interested in helping or aiding it. It's the same as someone asking you if you like/love something and you simply go, "I don't dislike/hate it". When someone asks for "more love" for something, it's usually because they think people don't care about it all, not that they're actively antagonistic towards it. It's a way of saying you can easily do without it. Like he said in an old thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-259293.html You won't find subraces in *my* Eberron campaign. I prefer to focus on cultural differences as opposed to statistical differences. Humans never have statistic modifiers, regardless of where they come from. Following this, I feel that nonhuman stat modifiers represent the inherent nature of the race and should remain constant regardless of culture or environment. So the Valenar elves have a militant culture, while the Aereni are aloof and mysterious -- but both are fast, frail, and have an aptitude for magic. But with that said, you can certainly do things differently. That whole basic tenet of Eberron is "if it's in the core books, there's a place for it." I would be more inclined to accept the drastically different subraces; for example, I have no trouble saying "Noldrunhold was destroyed by servants of the Daelkyr, who took the survivors down into Khyber and transformed them into Duergar." Perhaps there is a population of aquatic elves in Shargon's Teeth, survivors dating back to the disaster that destroyed the giants of Xen'drik. I'm also happy with minor color tweaks; for example, I think that it makes sense for the Valenar elves to be familiar with scimitars and shortbows instead of longswords and longbows. But with things like Wood Elves, Gray Elves, and such, I feel that they dilute the distinctiveness of the race-- "So, do I want to be a strong elf, a smart elf, or a fast elf?" I'd rather that the elves were distinctive because of their behavior instead of their stats.
The White Sorcerer 07-12-07, 04:34 PM	It's a way of saying you can easily do without it. Hmm... Doesn't really sound like it. It sounds like something akin to "There isn't much love lost between x and y" or something like that. The same goes for things like "doesn't care for" and such. They just sound like an elaborate way of saying "dislike."
Alex_ 07-12-07, 04:43 PM	Hmm... Doesn't really sound like it. It sounds like something akin to "There isn't much love lost between x and y" or something like that. The same goes for things like "doesn't care for" and such. They just sound like an elaborate way of saying "dislike." It's used a different way. I think the entry in urbandictionary.com explains it better. To 'get no love'. Is to recieve no respect, recognition, kudos or empathy from a crowd or audience (either goup of friends or on a stage/field). Examples... "Man, I told 'em 'bout those 8 fools I capped last night, but they gave me 'no love' for it." "Shaquille O'Neill gets 'no love' when he travels with the LA Lakers to Orlando."
Cifer 07-12-07, 07:46 PM	I like Grey elves as Aereni leaders. Well, the leaders of the Aerenei often have a rather grey skin tone anyway.
Edymnion 07-13-07, 12:40 PM	Well, the leaders of the Aerenei often have a rather grey skin tone anyway.Yeah, but I'm pretty sure thats because they've been dead for a few centuries, as opposed to their normal skin color. ;)
yrogerg 07-14-07, 02:23 AM	Which sucks. They used to have their own subtype. Why should they be humans? Why would a mongrelman have human blood above all others? Because part of the flavor of humans, as presented in RoD, is that their bloodline is *very* pliable, which is part of the reason half-breed races are usually half-human. Thus, while mongrelfolk *are* heavily mixed, it's their human nature that has allowed them to achieve that state, and thus, some aspect of their human nature is still nevertheless very strongly expressed.
Dark_Rhapsody 07-16-07, 11:56 AM	So, your argument is that it "isn't appropriate" or that "Keith didn't want it that way"? I am sorry, but this is D&D! It is the player's and the DM's world. They choose what is in it. Yes, certain things don't make sense, but it isn't that unlikely that there would be different elves. High elves are the standard elves, so therefor, they are the default and most common. They originate from Xen'drik, then they migrated to their current home after the fall of the giants. Other sub-races are very possible in Eberron. Keith isn't god. He doesn't dictate what you put in the world. Sure, he wrote the setting, but who really cares?!
Edymnion 07-16-07, 02:00 PM	So, your argument is that it "isn't appropriate" or that "Keith didn't want it that way"? I am sorry, but this is D&D!Yes, for the same reason I say Elminster isn't in Eberron, and that your half-orc can't pilot the Enterprise into a deathstar trenchrun on Cthulu's bunghole. Just because "its D&D" doesn't mean we have to let everything we can think of get put into the game. Why do we not like subraces in Eberron? Because many of us don't like subraces to begin with, and one of the big draws of Eberron was that there weren't any subraces in it. Its like saying you choose Faerun because you don't like the "robots" in Eberron, and somebody posts up "Hey, how do I put Warforged into Faerun?" When one of the deciding factors in taking up a setting was that it didn't have something that the other did, you tend to fight the idea of letting it in.
Dark_Rhapsody 07-16-07, 02:30 PM	Yes, for the same reason I say Elminster isn't in Eberron, and that your half-orc can't pilot the Enterprise into a deathstar trenchrun on Cthulu's bunghole. Just because "its D&D" doesn't mean we have to let everything we can think of get put into the game. Why do we not like subraces in Eberron? Because many of us don't like subraces to begin with, and one of the big draws of Eberron was that there weren't any subraces in it. Its like saying you choose Faerun because you don't like the "robots" in Eberron, and somebody posts up "Hey, how do I put Warforged into Faerun?" When one of the deciding factors in taking up a setting was that it didn't have something that the other did, you tend to fight the idea of letting it in. I don't see why though...it won't effect you if others are playing a setting differently. I like both Faerun and Eberron. I play Faerun much different than what is intended (the cosmology is much different). If people give me crap about it, I don't care. All of my stuff that I put in makes sense. I don't just throw in random crap. However, I am imaginative on certain things.
Alex_ 07-16-07, 04:09 PM	I don't see why though...it won't effect you if others are playing a setting differently. I like both Faerun and Eberron. I play Faerun much different than what is intended (the cosmology is much different). If people give me crap about it, I don't care. All of my stuff that I put in makes sense. I don't just throw in random crap. However, I am imaginative on certain things. It's not that you can't do it that way. However, there are other ways that are equally viable. Many people (not just Kieth) believe that by providing the options of several subraces that are all virtually identical except for a few slight mechanical changes, that you devalue them, unless that's their theme or something (like a caste society). It's especially so when these subraces have mechanical advantages over other races or inclinations to dominate in certain classes. The Strongheart's Halfling's extra feat is generally better than a +1 to all saves the standard Lightfoot Halfling Gets. The Shadow Gnome is the quintessential Rogue. The Gray Elf is the best choice for an Intelligence based caster. The wood Elf gets +2 Strength and -2 Intelligence, plus all the Elf abilities (low-light vision, immunity to sleep, bonuses to spot and listen cheks, bonuses against charms) while a Half-Orc gets +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence and -2 Charisma, and Darkvision as its only standout ability. Some people want to simply avoid all that. They play Eberron (or any setting) and do not introduce subraces as readily available options, if at all. This can also lead to more imagination as one begins to define their characters, not by their ability bonuses/penalties or their favored class, but by their culture and personal outlook. Kieth isn't god. We don't do whatever he says just because he says it. However, we do take his intent and commentary into consideration, as many of us agree with Kieth's ideas regarding many aspects of D&D which have not largely been expressed by creators or implied in published material. I can honestly say that one of the things that I was very excited to see when I first read through the book was the fact that the races weren't being pigeonholed into specific cultures based on their mechanical abilities (and in some cases quite the opposite), and that new mechanical variations were not being created simply to justify another culture or outlook. However, neither did it simply have them play against type, and each culture still, in many ways remains true to the nature of the race as described in the PHB and don't seem to conflict readily at all. That, my friend, takes plenty of imagination.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 08:54 PM	Yes, for the same reason I say Elminster isn't in Eberron, and that your half-orc can't pilot the Enterprise into a deathstar trenchrun on Cthulu's bunghole. Just because "its D&D" doesn't mean we have to let everything we can think of get put into the game. Why do we not like subraces in Eberron? Because many of us don't like subraces to begin with, and one of the big draws of Eberron was that there weren't any subraces in it. Its like saying you choose Faerun because you don't like the "robots" in Eberron, and somebody posts up "Hey, how do I put Warforged into Faerun?" When one of the deciding factors in taking up a setting was that it didn't have something that the other did, you tend to fight the idea of letting it in. ...At the same time, there ought to be a point when we put a limit on attacking other people's fun (like when someone is clearly talking about something for their own home game, not proposing ideas for new sourcebooks).
Edymnion 07-16-07, 09:42 PM	...At the same time, there ought to be a point when we put a limit on attacking other people's fun (like when someone is clearly talking about something for their own home game, not proposing ideas for new sourcebooks).But we must also remember that the OP asked if the subraces were already there. We covered the answer of "You could put them in there if you wanted, but no, by default they are not there." The question of why comes up, and when given the retort is "Well, the opinion of the setting's creator shouldn't have any bearing on it!" The answer of "they weren't supposed to be in the setting" is indeed a very good reason why, given the option, one would refrain from adding them in as a casual thing. If one is running a fast and loose game, the addition has no further bearing, as its intentionally not allowed to change anything, you are just giving a player access to additional (although in my opinion munchkiny) set of mechanics. If the DM is trying to run a more thorough game (which the very question of where they should go would imply), adding in subraces like this raises all sorts of prickly issues that radiate out in unexpected ways, with how much it affects being limited only by how far the DM is willing to take things to their logical conclusions. If one wants a more detailed reason why the game is better off by not using subraces, thats already been touched on in this thread. It cheapens the races, makes them less distinct, and honestly caters to no one but the power gamers and the munchkins. The elven subraces (which are the poster child for this since there are so many of them) essentially have +2 any stat, -2 any stat, favored class any. There is no racial individuality, as you've got elves that are weak and frail, elves that are pound for pound as strong as any half-orc, are by default one of the most intelligent races in the world. There is no flavor reason WHY subraces should exist. In almost all cases, the changes are only for the purposes of making the race the best at whatever they are. If you want a Fighter, there is an Elf with a Str bonus. If you want to be a Wizard, there is an Elf with an Int bonus. If you want a Barbarian, there is even a wild elf that makes the best Barbarian out there. There is no reason for these subraces to exist beyond elf fanboy wanting elves to be the best at everything, which by default means that there is nothing unique about them, they have become nothing more than a random bowl of stats that people just claim are elves. Honestly, at that point, there is no reason to use elves, or any other race, at all. You can just take the races in the PHB, use those stats, and call them anything you want. You want a short stout human? Use Dwarf stats and just call them a Human, right? After all, that is *EXACTLY* what subraces do. They make up what is essentially an entirely new race, and then just call it an Elf, or a Dwarf, or whatever else, for absolutely no reason what-so-ever but to pander to people that just absolutely cannot accept the fact that their favorite race might be bad at something.
Dark_Rhapsody 07-16-07, 11:53 PM	Okay, now I am understanding what you people are saying...it makes sense. The thing is, I have a group of players that love to roleplay and not just "roll"play (if you get my meaning). For example, my more advanced player (okay...we are a group of three people because we like in the middle of nowhere) who has been playing as long as me chooses races because he WANTS to play that role. He has played a very toned down half-dragon in the Forgotten Realms because he wanted to be kind of the misunderstood person that isn't afraid to step up (he was a monk), which is a very good idea for the basic idea of a half-dragon, because, even if they are more common in the Realms, it doesn't mean they are always accepted by society. I played a NG werewolf in the Realms so I can be kind of the good hearted person with alot of inner demons. I don't know...most of the time, racial stats are the last thought on everyones minds. My less advanced player is more of a power player, but he doesn't do it very often nor very severely. I offer choices for my characters, because I know they won't choose for the stats. Now, if they ever would choose to be a race just so that they are statistically stronger, then I wouldn't let them.
yrogerg 07-17-07, 12:48 AM	Okay, now I am understanding what you people are saying...it makes sense. The thing is, I have a group of players that love to roleplay and not just "roll"play (if you get my meaning). For example, my more advanced player (okay...we are a group of three people because we like in the middle of nowhere) who has been playing as long as me chooses races because he WANTS to play that role. He has played a very toned down half-dragon in the Forgotten Realms because he wanted to be kind of the misunderstood person that isn't afraid to step up (he was a monk), which is a very good idea for the basic idea of a half-dragon, because, even if they are more common in the Realms, it doesn't mean they are always accepted by society. I played a NG werewolf in the Realms so I can be kind of the good hearted person with alot of inner demons. I don't know...most of the time, racial stats are the last thought on everyones minds. My less advanced player is more of a power player, but he doesn't do it very often nor very severely. I offer choices for my characters, because I know they won't choose for the stats. Now, if they ever would choose to be a race just so that they are statistically stronger, then I wouldn't let them. Yeah, but the point that the elven cultures in Eberron are clearly intended to make is that you don't *need* subraces to have different cultures, or to play an interesting character. You can be an elf who comes from a strongly martial society without having +2 to strength, or an elf with a strong arcane background without +2 to Int. Yes, sometimes a particular character concept does require a more... interesting.. race, but if you can just replace all of the references to Wood elves in the Wood elf fluff with "Some elves", and replace the references to Grey elves with "Some other elves", without changing anything, then where's the RP benefit behind these subraces? If it's not a mechanical bonus a player's after, then what's wrong with playing a mechanically normal elf that comes from the appropriate culture or nation or society? For most other core races, this is a non-issue.
JulesCARV 07-17-07, 01:08 AM	I've had enough of this second-hand stuff about Keith not hating subraces or not liking subraces; I'm interested in reading Hellcow's views on subraces straight from the horse's cow's mouth. I seem to remember he addressed this in an Ask Keith Baker thread or two, but I can't seem to remember what the actual response was. Anyone have a link to a clearer exposition of Keith's views?
Alex_ 07-17-07, 06:31 AM	I've had enough of this second-hand stuff about Keith not hating subraces or not liking subraces; I'm interested in reading Hellcow's views on subraces straight from the horse's cow's mouth. I seem to remember he addressed this in an Ask Keith Baker thread or two, but I can't seem to remember what the actual response was. Anyone have a link to a clearer exposition of Keith's views? http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_arch.../t-259293.html Quote: You won't find subraces in *my* Eberron campaign. I prefer to focus on cultural differences as opposed to statistical differences. Humans never have statistic modifiers, regardless of where they come from. Following this, I feel that nonhuman stat modifiers represent the inherent nature of the race and should remain constant regardless of culture or environment. So the Valenar elves have a militant culture, while the Aereni are aloof and mysterious -- but both are fast, frail, and have an aptitude for magic. But with that said, you can certainly do things differently. That whole basic tenet of Eberron is "if it's in the core books, there's a place for it." I would be more inclined to accept the drastically different subraces; for example, I have no trouble saying "Noldrunhold was destroyed by servants of the Daelkyr, who took the survivors down into Khyber and transformed them into Duergar." Perhaps there is a population of aquatic elves in Shargon's Teeth, survivors dating back to the disaster that destroyed the giants of Xen'drik. I'm also happy with minor color tweaks; for example, I think that it makes sense for the Valenar elves to be familiar with scimitars and shortbows instead of longswords and longbows. But with things like Wood Elves, Gray Elves, and such, I feel that they dilute the distinctiveness of the race-- "So, do I want to be a strong elf, a smart elf, or a fast elf?" I'd rather that the elves were distinctive because of their behavior instead of their stats.
Dark_Rhapsody 07-17-07, 11:07 AM	Yeah, but the point that the elven cultures in Eberron are clearly intended to make is that you don't *need* subraces to have different cultures, or to play an interesting character. You can be an elf who comes from a strongly martial society without having +2 to strength, or an elf with a strong arcane background without +2 to Int. Yes, sometimes a particular character concept does require a more... interesting.. race, but if you can just replace all of the references to Wood elves in the Wood elf fluff with "Some elves", and replace the references to Grey elves with "Some other elves", without changing anything, then where's the RP benefit behind these subraces? If it's not a mechanical bonus a player's after, then what's wrong with playing a mechanically normal elf that comes from the appropriate culture or nation or society? For most other core races, this is a non-issue. Well...actually...wow, that is very true. I guess I am so used to Forgotten Realms that I didn't actually examine all the possible cultures an elf could be from. Well, it now at least simplifies the elven race. I now am seeing what your getting at. I just use different culture types, but the same race.
Arcane Guyver 07-17-07, 11:12 AM	I don't see anything inherently wrong with the core subraces, used carefully. Dark Elves: Already have an established place in Xen'drik. Not a PC race. Dark Half-Elves: Also already have an established place in Xen'drik, acceptable as a rare PC race. Aquatic Elves: Can be easily inserted into Eberron, preferably away from the sahuagin. Not a PC race. Aquatic Half-Elves: Just as easy to insert as their full-blooded parents, acceptable as a rare PC race. Wood Elves: Natives of the fey plane, not a PC race. Grey Elves: Becoming a grey elf is one step towards becoming deathless. Not a PC race. Wild Elves: A specially modified race of slaves who work for the one giant family who survived the dragon attack on Xen'drik by hiding. Probably not a PC race, just a special group of mooks for PCs to fight when raiding the giants' lair (though one might survive and could become a unique PC or cohort).
Edymnion 07-17-07, 09:55 PM	Well...actually...wow, that is very true. I guess I am so used to Forgotten Realms that I didn't actually examine all the possible cultures an elf could be from. Well, it now at least simplifies the elven race. I now am seeing what your getting at. I just use different culture types, but the same race.Bingo. Too many people use subraces as nothing more than roleplaying crutches. Same with most of the monster races as well. The ones that aren't flat out using the mechanics for pure power reasons use them as a way to weasle out of any actual roleplaying or creative thought. They don't want to actually make anything, they just want to play a stereotype which simply hands everything to them on a silver platter. You pick a Wild Elf, and suddenly you don't have to think any more. All of your major character personality traits, background, all of that just comes with the subrace. You almost never see someone who picks a subrace that ever plays anything but the stereotype for that subrace. Think about it, when was the last time you saw someone play a Wild Elf that was a sophisticated Wizard, or a stealthy Rogue? So, we either get someone playing the subrace just for the power boost, or we get someone playing a subrace so they don't actually have to come up with anything on their own. Neither is a good reason to have them in the game. All of the good reasons to have a subrace actually can be done, completely, without the subrace. You just need to roleplay the cultural differances instead of just parroting a stereotype, which means that you will actually be doing some work for yourself, which means you will invariably customize it, and suddenly you're not just using a stereotype, but using that as the basis for your own material. So yes, bottom line is that subraces are almost useless, and they are nothing but pandering to the lowest common denominators, the powergamers and the lazy. I say almost useless because they do have one valid use, they can help new players see that a race does not have to be just whats written in the PHB, that it can be culturally differant. The problem is that while it teaches them that, it also teaches them that they have to have mechanical differances to have those cultural differances. Which is why Eberron is so nice. It totally changes the races, but *it doesn't change the mechanics*. It keeps everything that is good about subraces, the flavor, without dragging in all of the bad things.
Marcus Majarra 07-17-07, 11:45 PM	Eberron still makes use of some subraces, however, but these are drastically different in both form and abilities from the norm, as a general rule. Drow, while a subrace of elves, are drastically different from your typical high elves, as are duergar from dwarves. Yet both are present in Eberron (in Xen'drik and Sarlona, respectively).
ArcTan 07-18-07, 12:03 AM	I like subraces if I find the flavor interesting enough. Heck, that's true for anything, but with subraces especially I'm *great* with subraces -- *if* the flavor really is "It's a bizarre race of mutant Elves!", not just "Oh. Wood Elves. They come from the East and are really strong."
JulesCARV 07-18-07, 08:34 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_arch.../t-259293.html Thanks.
Edymnion 07-18-07, 12:15 PM	Eberron still makes use of some subraces, however, but these are drastically different in both form and abilities from the norm, as a general rule. Drow, while a subrace of elves, are drastically different from your typical high elves, as are duergar from dwarves. Yet both are present in Eberron (in Xen'drik and Sarlona, respectively).Yes, but Drow and Duerger are subraces in name only. Honestly, the drow and the elves have little in common mechanically. Drow should have been a totally seperate monster entry, with a comment about being related to elves.