Post/Author/DateTime	Post
posternutbag 07-12-07, 01:07 AM	So I have been over on the D&D boards working on the crunch for my newest Eberron character. I wanted a Paladin/Bard and ended up with a CG Halfling Variant Paladin of Freedom (UA)/Bard who worships The Traveler. I originally had him pegged as a disciple of Dol Dorn, but that seemed 1) too obvious, and 2) sort of unHalfling. Now that I have the crunch, I was hoping people would be so kind as to P.E.AC.H. my backstory. But first, the build as I see it: CG Halfling Paladin of Freedom/Bard S:15 D:14 C:12 I:18 W:18 Ch:18 Paladin 1 Knightly Training (ECS) Paladin 2 Bard 1 Devoted Performer Bard 2 (+1 Str) Paladin 3 Bard 3 Feat TBD Paladin 4 Bard 4 (+1 Wis) Paladin 5 Feat TBD With a Glidewing Mount (RAW say Flying Mounts should have CR 4 less than Character Level, while my Paladin Class level is 5, my Character Level in 9, so I should be good, although if I am mistaken, please let me know.) So, why the Traveler? I could think of no other Eberron deity that so embodies the concept of freedom, both in his portfolios and domains and while not exactly good, he isn't evil. My backstory is a Halfling whose parents were both adventurers based in Zilargo. So, while raised in relative cmfort, he was pretty neglected because his parents were off dungeoneering and resorting to occassional piracy/privateering during the Last War. A Changling Bad/Paladin who was a comrade of his parents took a likeing to the young Halfling and trained him in secret (well not complete secrecy, his parent knew, but being atheists, they didn't really care one way or the other about his religious training. They actually didn't find out that the Changling had levels in Paladin until they had adventured together for some time). The character will be based in Zilargo, although we will adventure all over Eberron as we rise in levels, but his main focus will be in freeing people from oppression, starting with what he perceives as the subtle tyranny inherent in the Culture of his home, Zilargo. Any sugeestions for rewrites, additions or modifications to build, back story or motivations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Rerecros 07-12-07, 01:38 AM	Loose knightly training, it's redundant with devoted preformer. Don't put the extra ability in Wis, you don't need it, Cha is your most important stat. Fluff is fine, what sort of tyranny in his homeland? Kanreth? Valenar? or is it internal?
Alex_ 07-12-07, 01:49 AM	Just "minor" stuff. You can't train to be a Paladin; you're chosen, and not by a deity, but by the cosmic powers of Law and Good. Paladins need not be religious. A great many are more inclined to religions and churches because those tend to be organizations that are not only more likely to strictly adhere to the concepts of Law and Goodness, but also because they're non-profit organizations that exist mostly to protect the weak. They could also be knights serving a noble cause in general, serving a particular ruler or noble, or even members of House Deneith who seek to help protect others. For a character growing up in Zilgaro, with little contact with their parents, and mentoring later in life by a Changeling, having a Glidewing for a mount would be unlikely. He's a city Halfling and shouldn't know any more about the Talenta Plains than the next guy off the streets of Zilgaro, let alone undertake something as unique and sacred as the bound between Talenta rider and dinosaur/pterosaur mount. Perhaps a riding dog would be more appropriate? Or perhaps an animal from Zilgaro or one associated with Gnomes like a Badger, Dire Weasel, etc? Take all that as you will...
Alex_ 07-12-07, 01:52 AM	Fluff is fine, what sort of tyranny in his homeland? Kanreth? Valenar? or is it internal? Think he's referring to the Trust, the shadowy and subtle law enforcement agency of Zilgaro, which is where the character grew up.
Rerecros 07-12-07, 01:55 AM	Just "minor" stuff. You can't train to be a Paladin; you're chosen, and not by a deity, but by the cosmic powers of Law and Good. Paladins need not be religious. A great many are more inclined to religions and churches because those tend to be organizations that are not only more likely to strictly adhere to the concepts of Law and Goodness, but also because they're non-profit organizations that exist mostly to protect the weak. They could also be knights serving a noble cause in general, serving a particular ruler or noble, or even members of House Deneith who seek to help protect others. :rolleye2: Umm, he's using a UA varient, the Chaotic paladin of FREEDOM :mel gibson: For a character growing up in Zilgaro, with little contact with their parents, and mentoring later in life by a Changeling, having a Glidewing for a mount would be unlikely. He's a city Halfling and shouldn't know any more about the Talenta Plains than the next guy off the streets of Zilgaro, let alone undertake something as unique and sacred as the bound between Talenta rider and dinosaur/pterosaur mount. Perhaps a riding dog would be more appropriate? Or perhaps an animal from Zilgaro or one associated with Gnomes like a Badger, Dire Weasel, etc? That i tend to agree with.
Alex_ 07-12-07, 01:59 AM	:rolleye2: Umm, he's using a UA varient, the Chaotic paladin of FREEDOM :mel gibson: How quickly I forgot that. :P Merely replace my uses of the term "Lawful" with "Chaotic" then. Either way, churches and religions tend to on the more extreme side of alignments than the secular organization, where morality and ethics are usually secondary to some other primary goal.
bigsnarf 07-12-07, 07:01 AM	Would'nt you have to train to be a paladin, with all that sword fighting and knowledge religion?
posternutbag 07-12-07, 09:38 AM	Thank you for all the suggestions; please allow me to explain some of my ideas a bit more fully. Crunch 1) Why do I have both Knightly Training and Devoted Performer? Each feat performs a slightly different function in my build. KT can be taken at first level. I have it so I can multiclass between Paladin and Bard. Without it, once I take a level in Bard, I can never again advance as a Paladin. DvP allows me to stack my Paladin and Bard levels for Smite and Music. True, it also allows multiclassing; however, DvP requires Smite and Bardic Music, thus at least 1 level in each class. By the time I have the feat, I have already left Paladin, and thus am subject to the dumb multiclass restrictions associated with Paladin. The feat was written for Bards multiclassing into Paladin, not the other way around. 2)My Glidewing. I am most definately an urban oriented character, especially during my early career. But, at some point well before 8th level we will have an extended campaign on the Talenta Plains, allowing my character some time to reconnect with his roots. But I definately see him with a urban bent. Fluff 1)Paladins are called. Good point, unlike Priests in Eberron with many entrance points, Paladins are called. I need to revise his background a bit. 2)Training. I meant more that he received training from his Changeling mentor in swordplay and music and riding, and in social skills and manipulation (Sense Motive, Bluff). 3)Tyranny. I think that my character views Zilargo, and especially The Trust as a kafkaesque/Orwellian 1984 style system where people are black bagged (ie wrongduers diappear into the night.) In his early years (read levels) I was going to play him as a Rage Against the Machine type of character, always fighting the man. It will be interesting to examine the politics behind The Trust and how freedom, civil liberties, and a safe ordered society interact. Later, as he move through the greater world, he will probably have issues with Thrane/Church or the Silver Flame.
Teron Gorefiend 07-12-07, 11:26 AM	Just "minor" stuff. You can't train to be a Paladin; you're chosen, and not by a deity, but by the cosmic powers of Law and Good. Paladins need not be religious. A great many are more inclined to religions and churches because those tend to be organizations that are not only more likely to strictly adhere to the concepts of Law and Goodness, but also because they're non-profit organizations that exist mostly to protect the weak. They could also be knights serving a noble cause in general, serving a particular ruler or noble, or even members of House Deneith who seek to help protect others. There are a lot of paladins who believe they were called by a deity or a divine force. They can't prove it definitely, anymore than a cleric can prove his magic comes from Aureon, but their dreams, visions or what have you are completely convincing to them. Furthermore, you don't practise a religion because you approve of it as a "non-profit organization" - you practise a religion because you actually believe in its deity (if it has one) and its ideals. 3)Tyranny. I think that my character views Zilargo, and especially The Trust as a kafkaesque/Orwellian 1984 style system where people are black bagged (ie wrongduers diappear into the night.) In his early years (read levels) I was going to play him as a Rage Against the Machine type of character, always fighting the man. It will be interesting to examine the politics behind The Trust and how freedom, civil liberties, and a safe ordered society interact. Later, as he move through the greater world, he will probably have issues with Thrane/Church or the Silver Flame. *Slaps forehead.* The Church of the Silver Flame is not evil. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=867798) The Trust is more debatable - it's scary and unfair, but it does maintain order very well, making Zilargo the most peaceful and crime-free modern nation. Still, it makes sense for a CG character to have issues with it.
Rekko 07-12-07, 11:46 AM	Paladin of Freedom Code of Conduct: A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionnally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful of evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty. Respecting individual liberty also means respecting individual choices. Your character can't help someone who doesn't want your help. So maybe the gnomes are living quite well even if the Trust is pulling the strings. That would be quite hard for your character to endure: his 'nemesis' being saved by the people's choices. Therefore, respecting individual liberty, can become a serious problem since your actions may on one side help a patron while on the other side ruin someone else's life. There has been many philosophers that have lay thoughts on the matter. Maybe your character acts by the matrix of one of those philosophers. Kant says that the moral thing to do is "Always act so anyone, without being dumb, can order to all man in all circumstances to act as ou just did." This is a quite lawful matrix which denies someone to do a lot of things (lie, kill, other) and obliges people to help someone in need. I think it doesn't fit your character, but put it up here to inspire you. John Stuart Mill, better known as the Utilitarianism doctrine, says that the moral thing to do is ordered by the majority. If your action causes good and happiness to the majority and hurts the minority, well your action is a good action and should be done. A bit like a democratic vote from the people involved by your actions. However, counting to whom your action is profitable or not can be very long because you have to count in every person possible that could be affected. This doctrine is quite the opposite of Kant, and would fit well your character if you do not weight every action and every people that could be affected. Karl Marx said that society is an evolving entity. He thought that the people who worked in factories would raise against their employeers and that communism would succeed to capitalism. Eberron may be facing it's French Revolution, or even it's Industrial Revolution. Whatever the turning of age, we can easily see that the society is evolving. Your character may want to direct this evolution towards what people choosed (and thus be some sort of 'true' communist, not like the russians or chinese communism) There's also a philosopher named Fredrich Nietzsche who said that actions should express the desire of your body and instincts. It is a very chaotic doctrine, but in itself it is quite regulated. So the goals of one are to surpass himself and excell to what he desires. However, I don't see how this could fit your character. Jean-Paul Sartre said that man are free and responsible of their actons. Therefore, everything is possible to do and credit can be given to an individual for doing an action. Moreover, freedom can express itself by rebellions or revolution against oppressers. So, even if the Trust are pulling the strings, the Zil can still act freely, but they have to suffer the consequences of their acts, and specially if the Trust doesn't like it. However, they can express their freedom, if not content of the Trust, by expelling them away. This one can suit your character well. Hans Jonas uses the Sartre doctrine, but adds that we are responsible not only for ours actions, but also of the others. Someone with greater power/knowledge/talent are responsible of the ones with less power/knowledge/talent. Example, parents responsible of children, teacher responsible of students, doctor responsible of patient, president responsible of people. Your character being a hero would be responsible to protect the people he cares about (Zilargo). Some philosophers, in different way that almost means the same, said that the actions of someone are determined by something (biology, history, society, others) and therefore there's is no real freedom, but people still feel free as if they made choices (to which the answers where determined). This doesn't fit your character, but may be important for upcoming philosophers. One of them, Beauvois, said that the actions of one are not entirely determined, there is still a slim chance for someone to choose differently of the majority. This last one can prove interesting. Your character may focus his work on making that slim possibility grow into the majority. Two more philosophers and I'm done. John Rawls says that individuals should not accept to participate in a project in which they would not be treated fairly. Thus, Rawls is not in favor of Utilitarianism which sacrifices the minority for the greater good of the majority. For Rawls, everything is a deal. If I let you do something bad to me, then you'll give me something good enough to make it even. Therefore, your character could make actions that would have good and bad consequences and then make further actions to make it even for those who suffered bad consequences. Last one, but not least. Charles Taylor favors diversity in solving a problem. He thinks that our values defines us better than the norms. Therefore, one should act according to his values. However, we have many values, so we need to place them in order from the most important the the least. This order of priorities may sometimes cause conflits, that is when one should make deals and compromises. Charles Taylor says one need to be true to himself with his strong and weak points. One also needs to team up with many so his weak points are taken over by the strong points of others (much like in an adventuring party). --- As I see him, your character would become some sort of political influence that would travel the world to learn about how the other nations are ruled. I think that his true enemies would lie in greedy people, like the Aurum's members. He may even figure out that the Trust isn't a bad thing for Zilargo. Rekko
Alex_ 07-12-07, 12:06 PM	There are a lot of paladins who believe they were called by a deity or a divine force. They can't prove it definitely, anymore than a cleric can prove his magic comes from Aureon, but their dreams, visions or what have you are completely convincing to them. Furthermore, you don't practise a religion because you approve of it as a "non-profit organization" - you practise a religion because you actually believe in its deity (if it has one) and its ideals. But a Paladin isn't not a class chosen by a deity any more than a Sorcerer or Bard. There's a difference between having a patron deity and being a dedicated crusader in the name of a deity or in devotion to a church. What I meant is that even though a Paladin may have a patron deity just as a Wizard, Sorcerer, Rogue, or Fighter would, that doesn't mean they're going to up and dedicate their lives to a particular institution devoted to that deity. The institution they align themselves with has to do things that agree with the Paladin, and most Good Paladins are into helping, protecting, and saving people through martial force. That's why there are more Paladins amongst the Silver Flame or House Deneith than there are those of Aureon or House Phialarn. "Non-profit" was simply one of the very many other contributing factors I listed. It was not the only, or even the most important one considering I listed house Deneith as an organization with which Paladins are often associated, even though they demand a fee for their services.
posternutbag 07-12-07, 01:48 PM	My character will be a Chaotic Good Variant Paladin of Freedom, so he will work to advance the causes of freedom and righteousness. Just as the positive aspects of the Law are powerful virtues that guide Lawful Good Paladins, the better aspects of Chaos; freedom, personal choice (and perhaps personal responsibility), and equality will help guide my character. Neither the Silver Flame nor the Trust are inherently evil, but they are inherently Lawful, so my character will likely stand against them, in most cases. But note, standing against something does not mean smiting. I will not be detecting and smiting, I chose to be a Halfling from Zilargo because my character will often look for nonviolent resolutions against all but the most evil of opponents. Just because I might be justified in smiting any evil, doesn't make it my only recourse. The ability to seek redemption will be a powerful influence in my character's life. he will generally defer to the belief that individual humanoids are basically good and basically want to be free. The constant questioning of this idea will be a central point in the storyline, as will my character's attempts to help others and advance the notion (to quote Optimus Prime) "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." (I love that the worked that into the movie). The Bard in him will want to seek nonviolent resolutions and constantly seek out new ideas to help further his ideals. I am still not sure how a character like this comes into being. I would imagine than Paladins are rare in Eberron, and a Paladin of Freedom, even rarer. Perhaps I should attach my character in some way to the Fey. I have build/write-ups for my parents and my Mentor (not sure what to call him) so I know their stories, its my early story I am struggling with.
Rerecros 07-12-07, 01:51 PM	Why do I have both Knightly Training and Devoted Performer? Each feat performs a slightly different function in my build. KT can be taken at first level. I have it so I can multiclass between Paladin and Bard. Without it, once I take a level in Bard, I can never again advance as a Paladin. DvP allows me to stack my Paladin and Bard levels for Smite and Music. True, it also allows multiclassing; however, DvP requires Smite and Bardic Music, thus at least 1 level in each class. By the time I have the feat, I have already left Paladin, and thus am subject to the dumb multiclass restrictions associated with Paladin. The feat was written for Bards multiclassing into Paladin, not the other way around. :confused: You got it backwards, you have to be a paladin first, then a bard for DP to work. If you started on bard, you couldn't take levels in paladin for the smite prereq. But how you have it, you take DP at the third level, which allows you to return take paladin levels again. Which means knight training serves absolutely no function :P
posternutbag 07-12-07, 02:25 PM	I'm not sure what you mean Rerecros. I think the feat was intended as a way for someone who starts as a Bard to be able to move to Paladin and back. Ie 2 Levels of Bard at say, NG. Then, at third level, you become LG and a Paladin. You are a Bard 2/Paladin 1. You take DvP so you can move between the two easily. Notice it says you can now be a Lawful Bard in the feat description. A standard LG Paladin faces a whole host of problems switching to Bard. We are currently debating the mechanics on the Classes Board in the D&D forum. I went with Paladin of Freedom to avoid stickly questions about alignment. If you have a way for a LG Paladin to become a Bard without breaking her oath and losing her powers, please let me know, but no one on the Character Classes Board has offered a solution to that yet.
Rekko 07-12-07, 02:58 PM	Being a paladin of freedom doesn't mean you have to revere a chaotic deity. In Eberron, alignments aren't always as they seem, and is not always a requirement to certain things. For exemple, a cleric isn't obliged anymore to be of one step from it's deity's alignment. I rule the same for paladins. As you speak of your paladin, you choose to defend freedom, the people, and all this sort of things. You haven't mentioned you are against the law. In fact, rules and laws are laid upon the poeple so that freedom is granted and respected. The Zilargo gnomes do appreciate sacrificing a bit of privacy so the Trust can provide security (note that Zilargo has the lowest criminal rate of Khorvaire). As a Zilargo halfling you have a wide choice of patron deities. The Zil like to change deities over time. I see them more as philosophers than blinded faithfuls. The Sovereign Host and the Silver Flame are popular among the nation of the gnome, but Cults of the Dragon Below, the Blood of Vol and druid sects can also be found. Your character is a servant of community, freedom and the people. Even if he is chaotic good, his oath doesn't forbids him to protect the laws that are not broken. For a choice of patron deity, your chaaracter may choose a few deities that have portfolio's similar to his oath. The Silver Flame, Boldrei, Dol Arrah might all be lawful good deities, but their doctrines may interest your character. Aureon as the god of law, lore and magic could also be important to your character being a mixed of a bard protector of the people. Olladra and the Traveller are obviously good choice of deity for the bard class, however, it least fits with the whole idea of protecting the people's freedom, but it fits well with freedom itself. The Blood of Vol, as a religion focused on inner strength, can prove important to a character who focuses on his personal freedom to act as he wills and to be responsible for it and be credited for it. As a whole, choosing the Traveller as your main patron deity can be a good choice, you can easily say you travel from deity to deity and after consultation you act as your doctrine of freedom said you should. Also, if you play out your character as the political influent who travels around for how nations are managed elsewhere, the Traveller is also a good choice. However, the deity that I think may fit him best would be Boldrei. However, you are also a Halfling whose bloodline originates from the tribes of the Talenta plains. your character could also revere a home-made clan sect focused on tribal community that you use on urban Zilargo communities. On the Glidewing mount now. If you want to be influent among your native nation of Zilargo, you might want to use a tipical mount of the nation. On the other hand, riding a Glidewing may attract attention to you (both from the Zil and the Trust) and even though you would be better heard, you shall weight your words if you do not want problems with the Trust, which I remind you is a national security organisation. I personally think that your character will eventually be confronted to either one of the two fallowing options. The Trust is a respected and important organisation to Zilargo. You are wrong in trying to oppose it, the people of Zilargo doesn't want to change. Or, a wind of changes blows on Zilargo, but the Trust is blinded to see it. The Zil do not know how to change their habbits for fear of the Trust who do not protect the new values of the Zilargo nation, but still protects the old ones. Your task is to open the eyes of the Trust so it stop repressing the gnomes and allow some changes in the nation. Have you considered applying for a job as a reporter of the Korranberg Chronicles? Your political influence might grow with some articles written in the paper. The way I see it, your character (what's his name?) will become a politician when he retires from adventuring. EDIT: You could still play a LG Paladin/Bard with Devoted Performer. The way I see your character, it feels more lawful than chaotic, but maybe I misunderstood. Or if you want to stick with Paladin of Freedom variant and you are CG Paladin/Bard, I'd still say drop the Knight Training feat and say the Devoted Performer feat works the same way for CG Paladin as it does for LG Paladins. By the way, what does P.E.A.C.H. means? And why did you choose to be a Paladin/Bard in the first place? Rekko
posternutbag 07-12-07, 03:48 PM	A very gracious thank you to everyone who has responded. To answer a few of Rekko's questions: 1)P.E.A.C.H. is used often on the CO Boards. It stands for Please Examine and Critique Honestly. It connotes a request for honest and serious criticism, not a request for sychophantic pandering. I really wanted people's honest opinions on the character. 2)LG Paladin/Bards are very hard builds. I believe Devoted Performer was meant more for Bards who become Paladins than for Paladins who become Bards. The no Lawful Alignment restriction makes it almost impossible to go from LG Paladin to Bard and back again (This is my opinion, there is some debate over the providence of Devoted Performer, you can see my other thread in the Classes Section of the D&D Boards for our ongoing dicussion on the feat). 3)The Paladin/Bard is something I have been thinking about for a while. The genesis of the idea came from a world I build that was loosely based on Spartan culture where Warriors were Monk/Fighters, Priests were Monk/Clerics, and Politicians would be Monk/Bards, with Monk representing early training at something I called the Academy. I realized that Monk/Bard had alignment issues and thought, well, what about a Paladin/Bard. it fits the mold for a medieval romantic knight, so that is sort of where I am coming from. Thanks to all, but additional questions and critiques are welcome. I am rethinking (again) my Patron Deity (has changed several times thus far, will probably change again) and thinking about strong ties to the Fey through my Mentor.
Rekko 07-12-07, 04:27 PM	Why the fey? What does your character do to justify his CG alignment? Are ou still a Paladin of Freedom? On your patron deity. You could choose that your oath is your "patron deity" and as many Zil do you change deities and practice of faiths frequently. Even if I would allow it, I prefer paladins with patron deities, so my player would eventually have to find a true patron deity. Character name? Did you choose to stick with the Glidewing? Rekko