Hellbred in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hellbred in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pazuzuthrall
03-10-07, 10:45 PM How would the Hellbred race (Fiendish codex 2: Tyrants of hell) fit into the Eberron cosmology? Would it work at all? :confused:
Syltorian
03-11-07, 12:12 PM It would be difficult. Since you're asking the question whether it would work at all, you are obviously aware that there is no Hell in Eberron, no Pact Primeval and no punishment of souls, the way FC2 understands it.

However, there might be some possibilities:

Hellbred could be people who have given their souls to forces of evil - rakshasa, most likely - but then tried to back out of the contract, when they realised what they did. This could work particularily well with the Followers of the Dark Flame, but could also be the issue of a ritual of Orcs of the Binding Flame performed on tainted, demon-following barbarians from the Demon Wastes should they seek redemption, saving them before their souls go to strengthen the Rajahs. The Flame might be willing to give such people a second chance.

Perhaps the Hellbred are not humans (or mortals) at all, to begin with. They might originally have been angels - basically, an angel who falls has two options. It can stay proud and fight against its punishment, and it becomes a powerful Radiant Idol. Or it can accept its penance, and seek redemption as a Hellbred. If it fails, it will fall even further; but if it achieves great goodness as a Hellbred, it can ascend again to its former status. Few angels fall, of course, and even fewer want to become something as lowly and haunted as a Hellbred.

The Dark-Six deity known as the Keeper exists. Contrarily to what most people think, he is not evil. Yes, he steals some souls, but not because he is greedy - or, as others think, to keep some heroes in reserve for when they are needed, though that comes closer to the truth. The souls he steals are people who did something wrong, and who could not pass on to their promised afterlives. Instead, they are imprisoned, and given the choice to return to Eberron and redeem themselves, as Hellbred. The Sovereign Host considers this a heresy, and believes the Hellbred to be agents of the Keeper with much more nefarious goals. Other religions discount the entire theory, and believe them to be freaks.

When an elf does something really, really bad before he dies, but is still not utterly lost to the cause of good, the priests of the Undying Court occasionally bring them back as Hellbred. This transformation is lost on virtually everyone outside of Aerenal, but the Aereni know what it means: here is a man who has been given a second chance, who did something really evil but might yet be saved - because nobody can become a Hellbred without willingly seeking redemption. Hellbred are excluded from elven communities until they have proven themselves. Several members of House Vol have been allowed to return as Hellbred, though they do not gain any mark - these are now amongst the fiercest fighters against the negatively charged undead.
pazuzuthrall
03-11-07, 04:19 PM Thanks for the Ideas. I love the concept of the Hellbred but I couldn't quite figure out how to fit it in with Eberron.
Teron Gorefiend
03-11-07, 04:19 PM Regarding your first theory, Syltorian, it doesn't really work because rakshasa can't take souls in Eberron, though they get a lot done by making people think they can. Aside from whatever happens after Dolurrh, souls can't be damned or used as glorified batteries like they are in Greyhawk. At worst, they can be delayed indefinitely by spells like trap the soul or imprisonment in the Keeper's Lair.

For what it's worth, I don't think the hellbred make much sense as written. If it's evil to create undead, for example, I don't see why hellbred can get away with it; if anything, you'd think they'd be held to a higher standard. It seems like they get to invoke blasphemous magics and turn souls into tormented wraiths because they're "badass", and that just doesn't fly with me.
pazuzuthrall
03-11-07, 06:50 PM I think what they were trying to get at is that Hellbred don't get any negative effects for using evil weapons due to their alignment. They are both Good and Evil at the same time. Internally torn between their past and what their future holds. It's like the angel and devil on your shoulders, except they are both. Now with that said I think that for concept sake it should still vilolate a paladins code of conduct to wield a Unholy longsword however the good vs. evil thing can extend to that too.
Syltorian
03-11-07, 08:03 PM Regarding your first theory, Syltorian, it doesn't really work because rakshasa can't take souls in Eberron, though they get a lot done by making people think they can.

Of course, you are right. But I believe I can offer a solution, however much it might lack in elegance, that does not conflict with the setting.

There is mortal magic and a number of monsters that can bind souls, feed on them, or do other unpleasant things to them. A Keeper's Fang weapon sends those it killed thousands of miles away to the Keeper's Lair. A Death Giant binds souls of its victims to itself. The rakshasas, with their millenia of experience, almost certainly have access to such powers, even if they are not inborn.

For instance, a rakshasa could create a procedure similar to that which creates a lich or a clone. The soul does not depart to Dollurh, but moves elsewhere; in this case, to whatever prison the rakshasa has prepared. From there, the fiend uses it to feed its rajah, or do whatever else it likes with it. It just requires the mortal to willingly and knowingly participate in the creation of the pseudo-phylactery in exchange for service in its current life. The classical diabolical contract, but supported by technology/magic instead of a pact primeval.

How to get out of the contract again? Exorcism or atonement at the moment of death, or within a few moments of it, could help. A wish or miracle, if you ever manage to get one in Eberron, certainly would. Perhaps even a Will Save could, provided the character is 'good' enough to weaken the unholy magic. Being freed of Taint in time, changing your alignment away from neutral, doing one good deed at the moment of your death. The possibilities are many. It's a side-effect of the soul-gathering eldritch machine that the rakshasa have not yet figured out how to remove.

It's more complicated than the straightforward "go to Hell" method of the Great Wheel. And of course it's a house-rule, but if you want to get it in, I believe this would be reasonably easy to implement without changing Eberron's cosmology or flavour.

It would not be common, and not the normal way. Maybe only one prakuthu has actually developped this. On a side note: Maybe, as this is Eberron, the entire idea that "you cannot actually give your soul away" is rakshasa propaganda, to make the gullible believe there is no risk. Nothing is certain in Eberron, and only a rare few will make contracts with the fiends anyway. After all, many Eberron religions do not believe that all souls go to Dollurh.

Many Silver Flame purified would like to preach you that the souls of the virtuous dead join with the Silver Flame. There is no proof for this, of course. If they are right - and here we have an 'eternal reward' as well as a 'glorified battery' type of afterlife - we have one supernatural force that can draw strength from the souls of its followers.

The Dark Flame reflects the Silver Flame in many ways. It has created a Keeper. It speaks to its followers. Perhaps it can also pervert the Silver Flame's ability to draw on the souls of its worshippers. Perhaps, if you want to be darker, it's the Silver Flame that turned the Dark Flame's ability to draw on souls against itself, by appropriating that power for the side of good.
Teron Gorefiend
03-11-07, 08:38 PM Hmm... Keith Baker's article about the Lords of Dust in Dragon specifically says they have no use for souls. As for the many ways of binding a soul, most can be undone; off the top of my head, a barghest is the only thing I can think of that can destroy a soul. For that matter, I'm not keen on that notion and would rule that it either stores the soul to increase its power (allowing it to be freed upon the barghest's death) or strips the soul in much the same way that Dolurrh does, sending it immediately to whatever follows (granted, that may be oblivion).

What I'm getting at is that I don't like the idea of souls being definitely destroyed. I've gotten the impression that Keith Baker doesn't intend for it to be possible in Eberron, and... that's all I've got, really, so do whatever sounds good to you. :)
Syltorian
03-11-07, 09:08 PM Hmm... Keith Baker's article about the Lords of Dust in Dragon specifically says they have no use for souls.

I will have to reread that one, then. Thanks for the source, btw; though I knew I had read somewhere rakshasas were not interested in harvesting souls, I was not certain where. :) In any case, come to think of it, the 'diabolical contract' with magical support does not have to be restricted to fiends. Any sufficiently great mage could come up with such an eldritch machine (which by definition is a 'do whatever you like device').

As for the many ways of binding a soul, most can be undone; off the top of my head, a barghest is the only thing I can think of that can destroy a soul. For that matter, I'm not keen on that notion and would rule that it either stores the soul to increase its power (allowing it to be freed upon the barghest's death) or strips the soul in much the same way that Dolurrh does, sending it immediately to whatever follows (granted, that may be oblivion).

I believe our group once met a demon ghoul which could destroy souls (in City of the Spider Queen), but it's been a time. Not that it really matters. I've never liked that concept myself. I can see how it makes the creature much more frightening to players (as well as PCs), since nothing can reverse it. Personally, I'd have the soul 'destroyed' beyond even a miracle/wish, but allow a special quest to get it back. Probably I wouldn't tell the players before the fight, though, I'm not that nice, after all. :D
Lazaro
03-11-07, 11:55 PM In my game (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773611) I tied them to Dolurrh.
Euangelion
03-12-07, 02:30 PM There is a curiosity about Dolruhh that has yet to be explained, and that is the presence of lemures, those mindless minor baatezu devils from the MM and the SRD. What are they? Perhaps the devils of Shavarath have devised a way in which souls of willing participants are transformed into lemures to serve as a source of summonable pawns for the infernal armies of Shavarath. On occassion, the maruts discover that the contract was not properly drawn up and return the still-tainted soul to Eberron in the form of hellborn.
Romulus LoneWolf
03-12-07, 08:39 PM There is a curiosity about Dolruhh that has yet to be explained, and that is the presence of lemures, those mindless minor baatezu devils from the MM and the SRD. What are they? Perhaps the devils of Shavarath have devised a way in which souls of willing participants are transformed into lemures to serve as a source of summonable pawns for the infernal armies of Shavarath. On occassion, the maruts discover that the contract was not properly drawn up and return the still-tainted soul to Eberron in the form of hellborn.

Considering the fiends of different plains don't really have any connection to each other, I'm thinking putting Lemures on Dolurrh is supposed to be a reference to the classical lemures of roman myth, who were vengeful spirits of the dead..
Euangelion
03-12-07, 10:42 PM Perhaps, but the OP wanted options for using hellbred, so I gave him one. It's his/her Eberron, after all.
yrogerg
03-12-07, 11:07 PM In my game (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773611) I tied them to Dolurrh.

I really like this idea, particularly since in another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=766718), someone presented the image of PCs managing to fight their way out of Dolurrh.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pazuzuthrall 03-10-07, 10:45 PM	How would the Hellbred race (Fiendish codex 2: Tyrants of hell) fit into the Eberron cosmology? Would it work at all? :confused:
Syltorian 03-11-07, 12:12 PM	It would be difficult. Since you're asking the question whether it would work at all, you are obviously aware that there is no Hell in Eberron, no Pact Primeval and no punishment of souls, the way FC2 understands it. However, there might be some possibilities: Hellbred could be people who have given their souls to forces of evil - rakshasa, most likely - but then tried to back out of the contract, when they realised what they did. This could work particularily well with the Followers of the Dark Flame, but could also be the issue of a ritual of Orcs of the Binding Flame performed on tainted, demon-following barbarians from the Demon Wastes should they seek redemption, saving them before their souls go to strengthen the Rajahs. The Flame might be willing to give such people a second chance. Perhaps the Hellbred are not humans (or mortals) at all, to begin with. They might originally have been angels - basically, an angel who falls has two options. It can stay proud and fight against its punishment, and it becomes a powerful Radiant Idol. Or it can accept its penance, and seek redemption as a Hellbred. If it fails, it will fall even further; but if it achieves great goodness as a Hellbred, it can ascend again to its former status. Few angels fall, of course, and even fewer want to become something as lowly and haunted as a Hellbred. The Dark-Six deity known as the Keeper exists. Contrarily to what most people think, he is not evil. Yes, he steals some souls, but not because he is greedy - or, as others think, to keep some heroes in reserve for when they are needed, though that comes closer to the truth. The souls he steals are people who did something wrong, and who could not pass on to their promised afterlives. Instead, they are imprisoned, and given the choice to return to Eberron and redeem themselves, as Hellbred. The Sovereign Host considers this a heresy, and believes the Hellbred to be agents of the Keeper with much more nefarious goals. Other religions discount the entire theory, and believe them to be freaks. When an elf does something really, really bad before he dies, but is still not utterly lost to the cause of good, the priests of the Undying Court occasionally bring them back as Hellbred. This transformation is lost on virtually everyone outside of Aerenal, but the Aereni know what it means: here is a man who has been given a second chance, who did something really evil but might yet be saved - because nobody can become a Hellbred without willingly seeking redemption. Hellbred are excluded from elven communities until they have proven themselves. Several members of House Vol have been allowed to return as Hellbred, though they do not gain any mark - these are now amongst the fiercest fighters against the negatively charged undead.
pazuzuthrall 03-11-07, 04:19 PM	Thanks for the Ideas. I love the concept of the Hellbred but I couldn't quite figure out how to fit it in with Eberron.
Teron Gorefiend 03-11-07, 04:19 PM	Regarding your first theory, Syltorian, it doesn't really work because rakshasa can't take souls in Eberron, though they get a lot done by making people think they can. Aside from whatever happens after Dolurrh, souls can't be damned or used as glorified batteries like they are in Greyhawk. At worst, they can be delayed indefinitely by spells like trap the soul or imprisonment in the Keeper's Lair. For what it's worth, I don't think the hellbred make much sense as written. If it's evil to create undead, for example, I don't see why hellbred can get away with it; if anything, you'd think they'd be held to a higher standard. It seems like they get to invoke blasphemous magics and turn souls into tormented wraiths because they're "badass", and that just doesn't fly with me.
pazuzuthrall 03-11-07, 06:50 PM	I think what they were trying to get at is that Hellbred don't get any negative effects for using evil weapons due to their alignment. They are both Good and Evil at the same time. Internally torn between their past and what their future holds. It's like the angel and devil on your shoulders, except they are both. Now with that said I think that for concept sake it should still vilolate a paladins code of conduct to wield a Unholy longsword however the good vs. evil thing can extend to that too.
Syltorian 03-11-07, 08:03 PM	Regarding your first theory, Syltorian, it doesn't really work because rakshasa can't take souls in Eberron, though they get a lot done by making people think they can. Of course, you are right. But I believe I can offer a solution, however much it might lack in elegance, that does not conflict with the setting. There is mortal magic and a number of monsters that can bind souls, feed on them, or do other unpleasant things to them. A Keeper's Fang weapon sends those it killed thousands of miles away to the Keeper's Lair. A Death Giant binds souls of its victims to itself. The rakshasas, with their millenia of experience, almost certainly have access to such powers, even if they are not inborn. For instance, a rakshasa could create a procedure similar to that which creates a lich or a clone. The soul does not depart to Dollurh, but moves elsewhere; in this case, to whatever prison the rakshasa has prepared. From there, the fiend uses it to feed its rajah, or do whatever else it likes with it. It just requires the mortal to willingly and knowingly participate in the creation of the pseudo-phylactery in exchange for service in its current life. The classical diabolical contract, but supported by technology/magic instead of a pact primeval. How to get out of the contract again? Exorcism or atonement at the moment of death, or within a few moments of it, could help. A wish or miracle, if you ever manage to get one in Eberron, certainly would. Perhaps even a Will Save could, provided the character is 'good' enough to weaken the unholy magic. Being freed of Taint in time, changing your alignment away from neutral, doing one good deed at the moment of your death. The possibilities are many. It's a side-effect of the soul-gathering eldritch machine that the rakshasa have not yet figured out how to remove. It's more complicated than the straightforward "go to Hell" method of the Great Wheel. And of course it's a house-rule, but if you want to get it in, I believe this would be reasonably easy to implement without changing Eberron's cosmology or flavour. It would not be common, and not the normal way. Maybe only one prakuthu has actually developped this. On a side note: Maybe, as this is Eberron, the entire idea that "you cannot actually give your soul away" is rakshasa propaganda, to make the gullible believe there is no risk. Nothing is certain in Eberron, and only a rare few will make contracts with the fiends anyway. After all, many Eberron religions do not believe that all souls go to Dollurh. Many Silver Flame purified would like to preach you that the souls of the virtuous dead join with the Silver Flame. There is no proof for this, of course. If they are right - and here we have an 'eternal reward' as well as a 'glorified battery' type of afterlife - we have one supernatural force that can draw strength from the souls of its followers. The Dark Flame reflects the Silver Flame in many ways. It has created a Keeper. It speaks to its followers. Perhaps it can also pervert the Silver Flame's ability to draw on the souls of its worshippers. Perhaps, if you want to be darker, it's the Silver Flame that turned the Dark Flame's ability to draw on souls against itself, by appropriating that power for the side of good.
Teron Gorefiend 03-11-07, 08:38 PM	Hmm... Keith Baker's article about the Lords of Dust in Dragon specifically says they have no use for souls. As for the many ways of binding a soul, most can be undone; off the top of my head, a barghest is the only thing I can think of that can destroy a soul. For that matter, I'm not keen on that notion and would rule that it either stores the soul to increase its power (allowing it to be freed upon the barghest's death) or strips the soul in much the same way that Dolurrh does, sending it immediately to whatever follows (granted, that may be oblivion). What I'm getting at is that I don't like the idea of souls being definitely destroyed. I've gotten the impression that Keith Baker doesn't intend for it to be possible in Eberron, and... that's all I've got, really, so do whatever sounds good to you. :)
Syltorian 03-11-07, 09:08 PM	Hmm... Keith Baker's article about the Lords of Dust in Dragon specifically says they have no use for souls. I will have to reread that one, then. Thanks for the source, btw; though I knew I had read somewhere rakshasas were not interested in harvesting souls, I was not certain where. :) In any case, come to think of it, the 'diabolical contract' with magical support does not have to be restricted to fiends. Any sufficiently great mage could come up with such an eldritch machine (which by definition is a 'do whatever you like device'). As for the many ways of binding a soul, most can be undone; off the top of my head, a barghest is the only thing I can think of that can destroy a soul. For that matter, I'm not keen on that notion and would rule that it either stores the soul to increase its power (allowing it to be freed upon the barghest's death) or strips the soul in much the same way that Dolurrh does, sending it immediately to whatever follows (granted, that may be oblivion). I believe our group once met a demon ghoul which could destroy souls (in City of the Spider Queen), but it's been a time. Not that it really matters. I've never liked that concept myself. I can see how it makes the creature much more frightening to players (as well as PCs), since nothing can reverse it. Personally, I'd have the soul 'destroyed' beyond even a miracle/wish, but allow a special quest to get it back. Probably I wouldn't tell the players before the fight, though, I'm not that nice, after all. :D
Lazaro 03-11-07, 11:55 PM	In my game (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773611) I tied them to Dolurrh.
Euangelion 03-12-07, 02:30 PM	There is a curiosity about Dolruhh that has yet to be explained, and that is the presence of lemures, those mindless minor baatezu devils from the MM and the SRD. What are they? Perhaps the devils of Shavarath have devised a way in which souls of willing participants are transformed into lemures to serve as a source of summonable pawns for the infernal armies of Shavarath. On occassion, the maruts discover that the contract was not properly drawn up and return the still-tainted soul to Eberron in the form of hellborn.
Romulus LoneWolf 03-12-07, 08:39 PM	There is a curiosity about Dolruhh that has yet to be explained, and that is the presence of lemures, those mindless minor baatezu devils from the MM and the SRD. What are they? Perhaps the devils of Shavarath have devised a way in which souls of willing participants are transformed into lemures to serve as a source of summonable pawns for the infernal armies of Shavarath. On occassion, the maruts discover that the contract was not properly drawn up and return the still-tainted soul to Eberron in the form of hellborn. Considering the fiends of different plains don't really have any connection to each other, I'm thinking putting Lemures on Dolurrh is supposed to be a reference to the classical lemures of roman myth, who were vengeful spirits of the dead..
Euangelion 03-12-07, 10:42 PM	Perhaps, but the OP wanted options for using hellbred, so I gave him one. It's his/her Eberron, after all.
yrogerg 03-12-07, 11:07 PM	In my game (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773611) I tied them to Dolurrh. I really like this idea, particularly since in another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=766718), someone presented the image of PCs managing to fight their way out of Dolurrh.