Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 03:08 AM	The idea is a good alinged Lycanthrope whose job it is to track down and redeem or kill evil lycanthropes. He/She has actual powers that can change the alingment of a evil lycanthrope to good. Failing that, they are designed to combat evil lycanthropes and kill them if need be. They would originally come from Lamania (spelling?) and their main goal is to find out what the heck caused the events leading to the Purge. This idea is mainly based off a PrC I saw in a FR book for a Presitess of Elistraee who converts evil drow to good. Maybe it's in the Underdark book? Anyone know what book this PrC is in? I don't appear to own it after all. I'm thinking perhaps while in exile the good lycanthropes were feeling helpless to do anything while they heard the news of evil lycanthropes running amok and of good lycanthropes falling to evil and wanted to do SOMETHING about it. I'm not sure if they would be tied to the Silver Flame but it's a interesting idea since not all Silver Flame hate all Lycanthropes with a passion and their are rumors after all of the SilverFlame letting exceptional Lycanthropes go free. I just can't think of a name for this race or PrC.
ArcTan 06-19-07, 03:35 AM	Is this the present day? There's no reason for *any* Lycanthrope to come back in the present day, at least not any obvious one. In the present day *all* remaining Lycanthropes, Good or Evil, have taken refuge in Lamannia, with the possible exception of a few (very few) holdouts somewhere deep in the wilderness. If this is a Lycanthrope trying to prepare the way for some eventual return of Lycanthropes from Lamannia... well, they have their work cut out for them. Remember that Evil-aligned strains of Lycanthropes are *naturally Evil* and nothing can be done about this. An Evil tribe of Werewolves -- call them the Clawfoot Tribe -- has always been Evil. Evil is in their blood. The Evil is built into their Lycanthropic strain. If you happen to be a Good-aligned Werebear, the same is true of you -- Good is built into who you are, you don't have a choice about acting that way. To make the Evil tribe Good you'd have to *replace* their strain -- it would mean ending the tribe of Werewolves and turning them into Werebears. (In Eberron they don't have to be wolves and bears, but it's a convenient example.) Such a thing hasn't been done ever, and it's an open question whether it *can* or *should* be done, because to do so flies in the face of free will. It's the same reason that during the time of the Purge the Good-aligned Lycanthropes weren't biting people left and right to create more Good-aligned Lycanthropes -- the act of taking away someone's free will that way is not a Good thing to do. (And the fact that FR is far more cavalier with "turning" people and transforming them through magic and supernatural powers is one reason I don't like the setting, *especially* anything to do with the damn Drow.)
Rechan 06-19-07, 04:35 AM	Don't quote me on this, but I BELIEVE that Silver was considered the weakness to werewolves because Silver was pure. It was thought to purify the blood, as the werewolf was tainted with a curse. These guys seek out lycanthropes (who are damaged by silver) and seek to PURIFY them of their evil. So I suggest The Silver Crucible.
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 06:04 AM	Is this the present day? There's no reason for *any* Lycanthrope to come back in the present day, at least not any obvious one. In the present day *all* remaining Lycanthropes, Good or Evil, have taken refuge in Lamannia, with the possible exception of a few (very few) holdouts somewhere deep in the wilderness. It's been already stated by Keith Baker and others however that they could indeed come back if they really wished to. Of course most of the Silver Flame probably wouldn't like this. If this is a Lycanthrope trying to prepare the way for some eventual return of Lycanthropes from Lamannia... well, they have their work cut out for them. Remember that Evil-aligned strains of Lycanthropes are *naturally Evil* and nothing can be done about this. An Evil tribe of Werewolves -- call them the Clawfoot Tribe -- has always been Evil. Evil is in their blood. The Evil is built into their Lycanthropic strain. If you happen to be a Good-aligned Werebear, the same is true of you -- Good is built into who you are, you don't have a choice about acting that way. The idea I have This class/race ignores that with their abilities and the idea is also that conversion is not gauranteed anyway. But I think your right and yes it's abilities should NOT work on natural lycanthropes, only afflicted. To make the Evil tribe Good you'd have to *replace* their strain -- it would mean ending the tribe of Werewolves and turning them into Werebears. (In Eberron they don't have to be wolves and bears, but it's a convenient example.) Such a thing hasn't been done ever, and it's an open question whether it *can* or *should* be done, because to do so flies in the face of free will. It's the same reason that during the time of the Purge the Good-aligned Lycanthropes weren't biting people left and right to create more Good-aligned Lycanthropes -- the act of taking away someone's free will that way is not a Good thing to do. (And the fact that FR is far more cavalier with "turning" people and transforming them through magic and supernatural powers is one reason I don't like the setting, *especially* anything to do with the damn Drow.) So it's evil to be a freewilled murdering werewolf but it's also evil to change him into good against his free will? Considering that it's said they have a supernatural urge to commit evil in the first place if they are evil I'd say it doesn't matter. A evil lycanthrope for example seems to be driven to kill even when he wouldn't want to kill someone. Sounds to me like he has little free will to begin with anyway. Also I'm still not quite sure exactly HOW the Preistess of Elistraee makes evil drow good. I don't know if it's against their will. Also there are already items, spells and other things in D&D that can affectively change your alingment anyway, such as a helm of opposite alingment? Dominate? Even Charm Person takes away free will. I never really said these guys were perfect ethier. That could be their fatal flaw is they don't consider free will. It's just an idea for my game anyway, so your free to dislike it. But your input is something I hadn't orginally thought of. Perhaps it's not really something that they do vs other people's will but somehow they can offer redemption to evil lycanthropes who retain even the tinyest shread of good in them somewhere. Not sure how that could work, sounds like I might have to use taint or something else in place of alingment. Though what I really need is to find where that PrC came from in the first place and see how it works. I really don't think their powers work on other drow against their will. I think they have to be willing to convert.
Rechan 06-19-07, 04:38 PM	I'll just take a moment to note, about lycanthropes and alignment, that the alignment isn't necessarily set in stone. At least, the way I interpret it, for true lycanthropes; a natural lycanthrope werewolf musen't be CE. Similar to how a green dragon isn't necessarily evil.
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 11:34 PM	I found a PrC that is somewhat helpfull. It's called the Moon Gaurdian and it's a Web Enhancement for Complete Divine. It's more for people who have become infected who haven't turned evil yet. Basically you'd have to keep resisting changing until you got one level in this PrC. That seems pretty hard because it mentions things like getting hurt can call for a roll. Put at least thats one PrC I like for Eberron useage.
Rechan 06-19-07, 11:41 PM	That's REALLY difficult in Eberron; according to the Moons of Eberron Dragonshard (or was that the Lycanthropes and the Purge Dragonshard?) that the moons are FULL about 18 days a month in Eberron, so that's a lot of rolls to resist changing.
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 12:29 AM	I know. I belive that's been stated before yeah.
ArcTan 06-20-07, 02:50 AM	I'll just take a moment to note, about lycanthropes and alignment, that the alignment isn't necessarily set in stone. At least, the way I interpret it, for true lycanthropes; a natural lycanthrope werewolf musen't be CE. Similar to how a green dragon isn't necessarily evil. Er, as Keith has said, what this means is that alignment is not tied to the Lycanthropic *shape*. Lycanthropes can be CE whether they're wolves, bears, tigers, rats, boars or whatever. You can have CG Weretigers and LG Werewolves and NG Wererats and CE Werebears. However, *each Lycanthropic strain*, Hellcow has clarified multiple times, remains tied to an alignment. One particular strain of Werewolfism is LG and means that everyone infected by it or born into it is LG. Another might be TN, or NE. You can change it if you like, but the RAW that Lycanthropes are an Always alignment hasn't changed in Eberron -- just the rule that it's specifically associated with a certain strain. If Lycanthropes had the free will to choose what alignment to be, the Purge wouldn't've taken the character it did. Similarly, Dragons are also Always alignments -- it's just not color-coded anymore. Blue Dragons can be just as easily Good as Evil -- it's just that one family of Blue Dragons will always be Good and breed true as Good (like the Storm Guardians), while another might be Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Evil, depending.
Rechan 06-20-07, 09:59 AM	Er, as Keith has said, what this means is that alignment is not tied to the Lycanthropic *shape*. Lycanthropes can be CE whether they're wolves, bears, tigers, rats, boars or whatever. You can have CG Weretigers and LG Werewolves and NG Wererats and CE Werebears. However, *each Lycanthropic strain*, Hellcow has clarified multiple times, remains tied to an alignment. One particular strain of Werewolfism is LG and means that everyone infected by it or born into it is LG. Another might be TN, or NE. You can change it if you like, but the RAW that Lycanthropes are an Always alignment hasn't changed in Eberron -- just the rule that it's specifically associated with a certain strain. If Lycanthropes had the free will to choose what alignment to be, the Purge wouldn't've taken the character it did. 1) Link to sources please. 2) By the RAW, that still means that True Lycanthropes can be good, it just means that you have to be from the appropriate strain. That doesn't contradict what I said: the alignment isn't as the MM says. Similarly, Dragons are also Always alignments -- it's just not color-coded anymore. Blue Dragons can be just as easily Good as Evil -- it's just that one family of Blue Dragons will always be Good and breed true as Good (like the Storm Guardians), while another might be Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Evil, depending. Again, link to sources? I'd like to read Keith's argument for this.
PumpkinGnome 06-20-07, 05:40 PM	From what I understand from Hellcow's thoughts on the matter, a true lyncanthrope can be any alignment they choose to be, meaning you can have good, evil, and neutral werewolves all wandering around together. The alignment limitation comes in when one of these trues passes their strain creating an afflicted were. Then this were MUST be the same alignment of the were that spread it.
wizardguy2003 06-20-07, 05:45 PM	From what I understand from Hellcow's thoughts on the matter, a true lyncanthrope can be any alignment they choose to be, meaning you can have good, evil, and neutral werewolves all wandering around together. The alignment limitation comes in when one of these trues passes their strain creating an afflicted were. Then this were MUST be the same alignment of the were that spread it. That seems to be exactly what he means judging by this quote from another thread. In the case of lycanthropes, this has actually been a subject of considerable discussion between myself and the WotC design team. This resulted in the Purge dragonshard. The WotC ruling is that lycanthropic alignment is not aligned with lycanthropic form. You can have a good wererat and an evil werebear. However, it is a curse that forces a radical change in personality, including alignment. As ArcTan said, the key is that it changes alignment to that of the infecting lycanthrope. Essentially, there are different strains of the curse. If you're bitten by an evil werewolf, you become an evil werewolf. If you're bitten by a good werewolf, you become a good werewolf. Unfortunately, the evil lycanthropes are far more likely to spread the curse, so the numbers are heavily weighted in favor of evil. Furthermore, in comparison to the slow corruption of a vampire, the transformation of a lycanthrope is instant and dramatic. It's not a transformation of your own personality - it's a curse that fundamentally alters who you are. You could BE an evil person. But when you become an evil lycanthrope, throw the PHB description of "evil" out the window and look to page 178 of the Monster Manual ("An evil lycanthrope who is aware of his actions... delights in bloodshed and will certainly seek out opportunities to slaughter intelligent beings, preferably those of his own race." Hence, shifter lycanthropes taking great pleasure in tricking the Silver Flame into slaughtering other shifters). Even GOOD lycanthropes are quite different from the typical good PCs; they "seek to avoid settlements or travelers and nonnatural environments." Becoming a lycanthrope isn't a free gift of power - it is a curse, and whether the strain is good or evil, it will dramatically transform the personality and life of the person infected. A DM may decide that it's possible for a lycanthrope to break free of this curse. Perhaps magic is used (helm of shifting alignments or the like). An important thing here is that even if the character's alignment does change, the alignment of the lycanthropic strain he carries remains. If an evil werewolf somehow becomes good, he'll still transform those he infects into evil werewolves. Before someone brings it up (again), in the present age (and by 3.5 RAW) an afflicted lycanthrope can't pass on the curse - only natural lycanthropes can. Yup. We know. At the time of the Purge, that wasn't the case; it's all in the dragonshard. While afflicteds can't pass on the curse NOW, many fear that whatever happened in the past could happen again, so the danger is always there.
ArcTan 06-21-07, 02:19 AM	That seems to be exactly what he means judging by this quote from another thread. You misunderstand. He's saying that the alignment of the strain is not tied to its beast form. A strain of lycanthropy may be Good-aligned and have a Wolf form, or it may be Evil-aligned and have a Bear form, or may be Good Bears, or Neutral Wolves, or Evil Tigers, or whatever. However, the *strain does determine alignment*. If you're of a Lawful Good strain of Werewolves, *you are Lawful Good*. It doesn't matter if you're of that strain because you're the natural-born child of two other Werewolves or because you got bitten by one of the Werewolves. Your alignment and personality are pretty strongly fixed by the strain of Lycanthropy you have. That's why Lycanthropes are scary, apart from the infection aspect. They're like a kind of fey or spirit, only with a much more substantial form -- they're living representations of the sort of spiritual ideals we think of animals as having. Most people think of wolves as evil and ferocious, so in a standard campaign setting Werewolves exist as a living embodiment of that totem-animal concept. In Eberron this is not strictly true and can vary, but the *idea* is still true -- an Evil tribe of Werewolves represents a particular kind of "wolfishness" that happens to be Evil, while a Good tribe represents a Good kind of "wolfishness". They both, however, represent some basic totemic aspect of the Wolf, and therefore have alignments that are fixed just as much as Angels' and Demons' are.
Bentley Mirrorshade 06-21-07, 09:52 AM	However, the *strain does determine alignment*. If you're of a Lawful Good strain of Werewolves, *you are Lawful Good*. It doesn't matter if you're of that strain because you're the natural-born child of two other Werewolves or because you got bitten by one of the Werewolves. Your alignment and personality are pretty strongly fixed by the strain of Lycanthropy you have. That's why Lycanthropes are scary, apart from the infection aspect. They're like a kind of fey or spirit, only with a much more substantial form -- they're living representations of the sort of spiritual ideals we think of animals as having. Most people think of wolves as evil and ferocious, so in a standard campaign setting Werewolves exist as a living embodiment of that totem-animal concept. In Eberron this is not strictly true and can vary, but the *idea* is still true -- an Evil tribe of Werewolves represents a particular kind of "wolfishness" that happens to be Evil, while a Good tribe represents a Good kind of "wolfishness". They both, however, represent some basic totemic aspect of the Wolf, and therefore have alignments that are fixed just as much as Angels' and Demons' are. This is a tad confusing, what do you mean by saying "In Eberron this is not strictly true" ? Do you agree with what I wrote below Hellcow's quote (further down)? The key is that you can be a natural, good lycanthrope - most good-strain lycanthropes ARE naturals, since they try not to spread the affliction. But even their behavior is influenced by it. It's simply that being born into it, having it a part of them all their life, they can adjust to it in ways the afflicted can't - hence you can have a good-aligned werebear carrying an evil strain. But it's not that he doesn't HAVE the murderous impulses; it's that he can overcome them. Same in reverse for an evil-aligned good-strain werewolf. His primal instincts drive him away from preying on intelligent creatures, from living in cities, etc - but he can fight both of these things. This is how I understand it: there are three basic characteristics of a lycanthrope - animal type, strain, alignment. Animal type (or form) doesn't say much about whether he's a good guy or a bad guy, or lazy, noble, vicious etc., because the Valenar give different moral connotations to certain animal species than, for example, Aundarians, so we can have the same animal types with both good and evil strains. Strain is a strong compulsion to act in a certain manner. So, for example, Aundarian werewolves (or rather, werewolves that originated from Aundarian folklore) tend to be vicious killers, because they have chaotic evil strain (some kind of instinctive, spiritual calling). However, some individuals can fight and overcome their strains. Alignment is the most specific. We can have a good natural lycanthrope of an evil strain, because he (being a minority, of course) managed to overcome his killer instinct and have an easy time being a nice person. However, the Beast Within still lurks somewhere in his subconscious and it cannot be completely rooted out... ever! These lycans I see as a minority, but certainly not as a good-demon-type minority - it is more of a one in tens or hundreds than one-in-a-million thing. Afflicted lycanthropes have a hard time trying to fight their strain and eventually succumb to it. So this is how I interpret what has been said one those two threads.
PumpkinGnome 06-21-07, 02:46 PM	However, the *strain does determine alignment*. If you're of a Lawful Good strain of Werewolves, *you are Lawful Good*. It doesn't matter if you're of that strain because you're the natural-born child of two other Werewolves or because you got bitten by one of the Werewolves. Your alignment and personality are pretty strongly fixed by the strain of Lycanthropy you have. If the case is that two Lawful Good weres have a kid, that kid is automatically LG, what happens in the case of an LG and a CG getting together. Does the kid have a choice then? Or are we saying that kind of coupling just doesn't happen, which I find really hard to swallow.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 12:18 AM	If the case is that two Lawful Good weres have a kid, that kid is automatically LG, what happens in the case of an LG and a CG getting together. Does the kid have a choice then? Or are we saying that kind of coupling just doesn't happen, which I find really hard to swallow. Why is it hard to swallow? Wolves and bears don't mate in real life -- why should Werewolves and Werebears mate? Even in strains that have the same kind of beast form, they're still different "strains" -- think of them as different genetic lines. They represent different basic totemic concepts. They *are* kind of like Fey or Outsiders, with the same problems in crossing alignment boundaries as a Succubus mating with a Planetar. I don't know if there is any official ruling on what happens when Weres mate with anything, but I would rule that, by default, members of a certain Lycanthropic strain only mate with each other. It's *possible* that Lycanthropes can mate with ordinary Humans, with the result being the race of Shifters, who aren't really Lycanthropes and aren't really bound by alignment. But I don't think different Lycanthropic strains can interbreed. (If they did, I might rule it as being like a Human/Changeling marriage -- the children will follow either the father or the mother, but not both.)
ArcTan 06-22-07, 12:21 AM	This is a tad confusing, what do you mean by saying "In Eberron this is not strictly true" ? Do you agree with what I wrote below Hellcow's quote (further down)? I agree with it. It says that alignment isn't tied to beast form but is tied to strain. This is how I understand it: there are three basic characteristics of a lycanthrope - animal type, strain, alignment. No, not really. In core D&D the only things that define a strain are the beast form and the alignment, and the two usually go together (i.e. Wolves are Chaotic Evil). Animal type (or form) doesn't say much about whether he's a good guy or a bad guy, or lazy, noble, vicious etc., because the Valenar give different moral connotations to certain animal species than, for example, Aundarians, so we can have the same animal types with both good and evil strains. Strain is a strong compulsion to act in a certain manner. So, for example, Aundarian werewolves (or rather, werewolves that originated from Aundarian folklore) tend to be vicious killers, because they have chaotic evil strain (some kind of instinctive, spiritual calling). However, some individuals can fight and overcome their strains. Alignment is the most specific. We can have a good natural lycanthrope of an evil strain, because he (being a minority, of course) managed to overcome his killer instinct and have an easy time being a nice person. However, the Beast Within still lurks somewhere in his subconscious and it cannot be completely rooted out... ever! These lycans I see as a minority, but certainly not as a good-demon-type minority - it is more of a one in tens or hundreds than one-in-a-million thing. Afflicted lycanthropes have a hard time trying to fight their strain and eventually succumb to it. So this is how I interpret what has been said one those two threads. Well, no. Werewolves are an Always alignment. It doesn't matter that it's not tied to the beast form -- it's *still* an Always alignment. You're born Chaotic Evil (or Lawful Good), you stay that way, it's in your blood, you can't imagine being any other way. It's the same as with Outsiders. It's always *possible* for one lone member to rebel against his nature, but it's very very rare. You can have an LG member of a CE strain, but it's like having a Lawful Good Succubus Paladin. The examples are very rare and each one is a legend. Hellcow never said a single thing about changing Lycanthropes from Always alignments to Usually alignments, which is what you're describing. *All* he said was that the alignment would be uncoupled from the beast form -- a CE strain might be a bear as easily as a wolf, but all members of the strain will still be just as constrained by their Chaotic Evil nature as Demons are. (Always alignments aren't that rare in D&D, and aren't particularly restrained to Outsiders. Most Undead are Always Evil, for instance, and all Dragons have an Always alignment, even if it isn't tied to color in Eberron.)
Bentley Mirrorshade 06-22-07, 11:31 AM	Let's take a look at Keith's ideas about Always and Often alignments: • Always. The only creatures I run with "Always" alignments are those whose alignment is literally tied to their very existence - and who, by their nature, essentially have no free will. In Eberron, the primary example of this are immortal outsiders. • Often. There are two ways to fall into this category. The pirmary method is to have a supernatural force that is overriding your conscious desires and forcing you down a path. This is certainly the case with lycanthropes, but I'll come back to them later. So lycanthropes are a special case: . Furthermore, in comparison to the slow corruption of a vampire, the transformation of a lycanthrope is instant and dramatic. It's not a transformation of your own personality - it's a curse that fundamentally alters who you are. This actually backs up your argument, but: A DM may decide that it's possible for a lycanthrope to break free of this curse. Perhaps magic is used (helm of shifting alignments or the like). An important thing here is that even if the character's alignment does change, the alignment of the lycanthropic strain he carries remains. If an evil werewolf somehow becomes good, he'll still transform those he infects into evil werewolves. Okay, using such magic would be rare, but there are more natural, more common ways and instances (from more recent comments by Keith) where a lycanthrope breaks from his heritage: The key is that you can be a natural, good lycanthrope - most good-strain lycanthropes ARE naturals, since they try not to spread the affliction. But even their behavior is influenced by it. It's simply that being born into it, having it a part of them all their life, they can adjust to it in ways the afflicted can't - hence you can have a good-aligned werebear carrying an evil strain. But it's not that he doesn't HAVE the murderous impulses; it's that he can overcome them. Same in reverse for an evil-aligned good-strain werewolf. His primal instincts drive him away from preying on intelligent creatures, from living in cities, etc - but he can fight both of these things. Also: If you read the Purge dragonshard, it affects all lycanthropes; the reason natual lycanthropes can't be cured is BECAUSE it is such an integral part of their nature. However, a natural lycanthrope can learn to overcome these instincts. It is a constant struggle, and yes, if I was playing a wererat PC I WOULD play up the fact that he'd rather be in the shadows, that he feels lonely, and so on. The werebear will be uncomfortable in cities, and yes, I would want him to have a good reason driving him to be an adventurer as opposed to living in the woods - something that is driving him to go against his instincts and walk among men. In my opinion it is more common for a lycanthrope to forfeit it's strain's alignment than it is to have a good devil or an evil angel. Certainly it is not something that happens every day, but it's not a legendary or 1-in-a-million thing. A DM should feel free to add such NPCs. The curse of lycanthropy defines their personalities yes, but some of them are able to oppose it. I would say that they are very often of the listed alignment, but there are exceptions... especially when they are notable individuals. Always alignments aren't that rare in D&D, and aren't particularly restrained to Outsiders. Most Undead are Always Evil, for instance, and all Dragons have an Always alignment, even if it isn't tied to color in Eberron. Umm... in DnD in general, yes, but in Eberron you can have good vampires (they are in the Often category) or other intelligent undead. As far as I know, Eberron dragons have no alignment restrictions, I'm puzzled by your comments regarding these dragon families and stuff.
Rechan 06-22-07, 11:35 AM	People, people. Keith directly talks about strains and Lycanthrope alignment in this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=870316).
Rechan 06-22-07, 11:38 AM	In my opinion it is more common for a lycanthrope to forfeit it's strain's alignment than it is to have a good devil or an evil angel. After all, in Judeo-Christian tradition, the devils came from angels. :)
ArcTan 06-22-07, 03:16 PM	Umm... in DnD in general, yes, but in Eberron you can have good vampires (they are in the Often category) or other intelligent undead. As far as I know, Eberron dragons have no alignment restrictions, I'm puzzled by your comments regarding these dragon families and stuff. There's no such thing as an "Often" alignment in D&D rules. The one that comes after "Always" is "Usually", which applies to things like Orcs being Usually Chaotic Evil or Elves being Usually Chaotic Good -- i.e. it really isn't anything but a broad stereotype based on culture, that individuals can and do shake off on a regular basis. Keith seems to be making a distinction *within* D&D's definition of the Always alignment between genuinely Always Always and only sort-of Always. Which is fine, though I don't totally agree. I don't recall where I saw him talking about different breeds of Dragons having locked-in alignment but I did see it somewhere, tied to this discussion (about how the intention was to uncouple color from alignment, not to remove all alignment restrictions). I could be wrong, but I saw this as the justification for beings like the Storm Guardians (a line of Blue Dragons that are Always Good).
Bentley Mirrorshade 06-22-07, 06:25 PM	People, people. Keith directly talks about strains and Lycanthrope alignment in this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=870316). Yes, I know, I posted there. I'm even quoting him from that thread. :) ArcTan: Ok, my post may have been a little confusing, because I didn't quote Keith in full. Fortunately, I save Hellcow's and others' interesting posts on my harddisk, so let me correct my mistake: The ECS clearly states that normal alignment restrictions don't apply. The rules I use when I write or run Eberron material varies slightly from this. You're correct in that I do say that rakshasa are almost always evil - because in my opinion there's a fundamental different between a rakshasa and any mortal creature. Here's the short rulebook I use. I realize you've already addressed some of these points, ArcTan, but for the sake of completeness I'm going to touch on them again. • Always. The only creatures I run with "Always" alignments are those whose alignment is literally tied to their very existence - and who, by their nature, essentially have no free will. In Eberron, the primary example of this are immortal outsiders. A Quori doesn't choose to be evil and an Angel doesn't choose to be good; they simply ARE those things, because they are essentially ideas given form. Even in these cases, it is possible for an angel to fall or quori to rise, which is how you get kalashtar and radiant idols. But when their alignment changes, they literally become something else, because their alignment is such a fundamental aspect of what they are. You can't have a good radiant idol; at that point it's no longer a radiant idol, it's an angel. Immortal outsiders, by and large, lack the ability to question their role in the universe. Those few that do often end up becoming something else entirely. • Often. There are two ways to fall into this category. The pirmary method is to have a supernatural force that is overriding your conscious desires and forcing you down a path. This is certainly the case with lycanthropes, but I'll come back to them later. In my mind, vampires and most sentient negative undead are driven towards evil because of the corrupting influence of Mabar and the need to feed on others in order to survive - something that eats away at your empathy. But a strong-willed vampire could certainly overcome that urge, and if you take a per capita analysis of angels and vampires, there's more non-evil vampries than there are radiant idols. (Again, more on lycanthropes later.) This is also the case with the kalashtar, or lesser outsiders like tieflings. The kalashtar are influenced by an outside force - their quori spirits - that push them in the direction of a certain alignment. But they CAN ignore that, and there are a considerable number of evil kalashtar in the world. The second way to get an "often" alignment would be to be part of a culture that engages in severe indoctrination of its citizens. This won't be a RACIAL alignment - but you could certainly end up saying "Most Ghaash'kala orcs are good." • After this, you get everyone else. If you're an intelligent creature free from supernatural influence, you're on your own path. There's nothing that makes, for example, orcs any more likely to be evil than humans. And I would personaly go with these guidelines. So it is safe to assume that Keith just used the word "Often" instead of "Usually". Not the same thing, but no big deal... Let's not quibble upon semantics. I don't recall where I saw him talking about different breeds of Dragons having locked-in alignment but I did see it somewhere, tied to this discussion (about how the intention was to uncouple color from alignment, not to remove all alignment restrictions). I could be wrong, but I saw this as the justification for beings like the Storm Guardians (a line of Blue Dragons that are Always Good). Why, yessir, I think we have just what you need! :) And, for monsters, *particular families of dragons* are still bound by alignment. Actually, not that I'm aware of (and hey, I was working on Dragons of Eberron. It's that "usually" culture-based thing, with just a touch of supernatural influence thrown in. Certainly, the Storm Guardians of Adar are good. But they aren't born good. They are raised by other good dragons and thus likely to become good, but they might not. If that's the case, they probably won't stick around, and they'll make their own way in the world. Thus, when you meet a storm guardian, you can expect him to be good - but it's still different from the rakshasa who is evil by its very nature... So it seems dragons have as much alignment restrictions as orcs have, that is, none. Anyway, my perception of lycanthropes is that they can break free from the alignment restriction (of their strain) more easily and more often than demons (who are embodiments of a certain abstract concept), but not as easily as vampires. This shouldn't have any large social consequences or change the way 'thropes are perceived but, I would say, DM should feel free to incorporate any number of these "exceptional" were[insert animal species here] as he seems appropriate. It would be OK and not upsetting cosmic balance or anything. :) But of course, ArcTan, I can understand you like your lycanthropes having fixed alignments. I think Keith's opinions support both of these POVs.
yrogerg 06-22-07, 06:52 PM	There's no such thing as an "Often" alignment in D&D rules. Are you sure? I was pretty sure that Orcs are listed as Often CE, meaning that while more are CE than any other alignment, still amounts to less than 50%. I can't access the SRD at work, nor do I have my PHB handy but I *did* post this in another thread somewhere:http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11802269&postcount=11
Neutronium_Dragon 06-22-07, 09:44 PM	> There's no such thing as an "Often" alignment in D&D rules. Uh, yes there is. There are three categories of alignment: Often, Usually, and Always. Often means that the largest share of the creature is this alignment, but they're not in the majority and there's a fairly wide spread. Usually means that the majority of those creatures are of that alignment, with most of the rest being close to it. Always means that virtually all of them are of that alignment, with exceptions being extremely rare. If you don't believe me, look it up for yourself: Monster Manual glossary, page 305, "Alignment".
ArcTan 06-22-07, 10:05 PM	Hrm. In that case, switching Undead or Lycanthropes away from Always is a big shift. Interesting that I'd forgotten Often still existed in 3.5 -- I haven't seen it on anything in a long time.
wizardguy2003 06-23-07, 01:06 AM	Why is it hard to swallow? Wolves and bears don't mate in real life -- why should Werewolves and Werebears mate? Because this isn't real life, and interbreeding between races appears quite common. I don't know if there is any official ruling on what happens when Weres mate with anything, but I would rule that, by default, members of a certain Lycanthropic strain only mate with each other. Would you be making that ruling just to save yourself the issues that would be involved in determing which type of strain, alignment or animal, would be the dominant? It's *possible* that Lycanthropes can mate with ordinary Humans, with the result being the race of Shifters, who aren't really Lycanthropes and aren't really bound by alignment. But I don't think different Lycanthropic strains can interbreed. (If they did, I might rule it as being like a Human/Changeling marriage -- the children will follow either the father or the mother, but not both.) In the end, I wouldn't limit interbreeding, considering the D&D world in general is pretty much ripe with it. Heck, I have to believe that's one of the reasons for templates to begin with. The dominance or melding would be the biggest issue in my mind, but not an insurmountable one I am sure. The tending toward the one parent could be very interesting, especially if the tend could alternate between parents, though the idea of a new were based on a brand new melding of two creatures seems like a fun thing too.
ArcTan 06-23-07, 01:23 AM	Because this isn't real life, and interbreeding between races appears quite common. Just because there's a lot of it doesn't mean everything can interbreed. I actually find it more logical if there *are* things that don't interbreed with humans, "just because". (No Half-Hobgoblins in my game.) Actually, the interesting thing in D&D is that because of its human-centric POV, *humans* can interbreed with everything, but it's far less clear that this is true of anyone else. We have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs and Half-Ogres, all of which are half-*human* -- but no Half-Dwarf-Half-Elves or Half-Orc-Half-Halflings or whatever. (And, in general, Dwarves don't seem to breed with any non-Dwarves, and neither do Goblinoids.) Would you be making that ruling just to save yourself the issues that would be involved in determing which type of strain, alignment or animal, would be the dominant? Sure. It's a magical, spiritual, totemic force. I don't imagine it "mixing" the way mundane genes do. I think White Wolf's Werewolf game had some interesting things to say about htis. In the end, I wouldn't limit interbreeding, considering the D&D world in general is pretty much ripe with it. Heck, I have to believe that's one of the reasons for templates to begin with. The dominance or melding would be the biggest issue in my mind, but not an insurmountable one I am sure. The tending toward the one parent could be very interesting, especially if the tend could alternate between parents, though the idea of a new were based on a brand new melding of two creatures seems like a fun thing too. If it is possible, it's rare -- I'd imagine the lycanthropic strain would take away your ability to be comfortable around ordinary human beings, much less be comfortable with someone of an opposed-alignment strain.
AkumaDaimyo 06-23-07, 05:58 AM	I found that Silverhair PrC class for the Preistess of Elistraee. I might use that as a example for my idea. I know it's some kind of roll to redeem a evil drow and they don't become good ethier, they become neutral. I really haven't read all of it yet on how it works.
Bentley Mirrorshade 06-23-07, 02:07 PM	OK, in case you missed it, this is the final word from Hellcow on the alignment issue: As for alignment, in my opinion it's somewhere between the angel and the vampire. It's more like the vampire - having your personality shaped by an outside force - than like the quori, who is a literal embodiment of a concept, and who, if its alignment shifts, may actually physically transform into an entirely different creature. I consider the lycanthropic pull to be stronger than that of the vampire, but it's similar; you're pushing against instincts and magical influences that you can never fully shut off. For reference, please note that quori, angels etc. are always of the listed alignment and we can shove vampires into the "Usually" (or even "Often", based on personal preference and needs of a particular campaign) group. LYCANTHROPES INTERBREEDING: I would say, determine the baby's strain randomly, just like with elves mating with humans. However, I see this scenario very, very unlikely - I'm okay with ArcTan's reasoning. AkumaDaimyo; sorry for not being very helpful with the topic of the thread. :(
AkumaDaimyo 06-23-07, 06:06 PM	So as I said elsewhere, what about Lupin? A good alinged Lupin sounds like a Prime candidate for someone who might be interesting in trying to redeem/cure afflicted Lycanthropes instead of killing them outright.
Rechan 06-23-07, 08:16 PM	So as I said elsewhere, what about Lupin? A good alinged Lupin sounds like a Prime candidate for someone who might be interesting in trying to redeem/cure afflicted Lycanthropes instead of killing them outright. You could say the same for Shifters. They have a heritage that's associated with the Lycanthropes (for good or ill) and some sympathetic/still ****** about the Purge could seek to convert.
AkumaDaimyo 06-23-07, 10:13 PM	I could but the Lupin are actually created specifically to hunt and kill Lycanthropes. Lupin can actually sense shapeshifters too. So they are pretty much really good at ferreting out lycanthropes, shifters and changelings and dopplegangers. They have to make a roll to do this though. They can also sense invisible things as well with a roll. Sense though, not see.
AkumaDaimyo 06-24-07, 10:52 AM	I found and looked at the Silverhair PrC class in regards to the idea of a PrC for redeeming Lycanthropes. Seems to work very well. I like it. It's not as powerfull as one would think at all. Yes you can do it to unwilling people. It only works on certain types of monsters. It DOES work on humanoids and monstrous humanoids. People redeemed don't become good, they become neutral. They get a will save of the Silverhair's CHA+Their class levels which only go up to level 5. So your going to need a really good CHA mod to redeem some people. Also, you cannot have killed any drow at all unelss you absolutley had to for the greater good (So for this they could not have killed any lycanthropes, unless you had to for the greater good, like it's going to kill a baby or something.) You can only redeem someone ONCE a week. Thats it. If they suceed their will save you have to wait a whole nother year to do so. Not to mention if they win the will save? You get hit with negative levels as their sins basically weigh you down. If you take enough negative levels you die and come back as a ghost of the alingment of the evil person. However if you suceed you get a sacred +4 bonus to CHA and some other nice bonuses for a number of hrs equal to the hitdice of the person you just redeemed. The PRC is also really really good at doing subdual damage. So it seems to work fine for what I would want. I guess though that you actually CAN redeem a natural strain Lycanthrope with this, even as the original Preistess of Elistraee Silverhair PrC.
Siberys 06-25-07, 12:20 PM	Thing is, members of the Silver Flame would see this Silverhair PrC as just as evil as any Lycanthrope - it is robbing the creature of its free will. That's why they hunted werebears - even though they were most often LG, the curse still robbed them of their free will, FORCING them to be LG. Ergo, it is evil. I could see this being used by a moderate - but ultimately heretic - member of the SF, or someone not tied to the church/organization. But for a SF lycanthrope hunter? Not likely.
AkumaDaimyo 06-25-07, 12:38 PM	I completly disagree. No, they wouldn't see this as evil seeing as how it saves their soul from evil. Tired of hearing people say rob of free will. Doesn't a charm spell do that too? Quite a few enchantments can be said to do that. No, it saves them from sin and evil. I don't find it heretical to the Sliver Flame at all considering some of the other things they've done. Not to mention what bout the lives of innocent afflicted you will save? Instead of having to kill them you can now redeem their souls and guide them to the light of the flame? The Silver Flame would be all over this idea. You also seem to completly rule out what if someone's family member, friend, or just a Paladin who doesn't want to kill a poor innocent who was afflicted? If a Silver Flame could save his child instead of running her through you can bet he'd do this. It also doesn't FORCE you to remain neutral. You can go back to being evil. It simply shows you what your sins and evil have wrought. If you still don't care you could fall back into evil eventually, but most do become good alinged afterwards. The Silver Flame wouldn't consider this bad I don't think. They consider forcefull conversion to the Silver Flame to be bad. Also, considering that a Lycanthrope doesn't get to choose it's alingment if it's afflicted then the whole free will thing is moot isn't it? SO please stop beating that dead horse. I seriously doubt the good alinged person WANTED to get bit by a evil Lycanthrope and turn evil and kill his friends, family and innocents. Even naturally born Lycanthropes don't have free will because it depends what alingment the parent's are.
Siberys 06-25-07, 01:29 PM	I completly disagree. No, they wouldn't see this as evil seeing as how it saves their soul from evil. Tired of hearing people say rob of free will. Doesn't a charm spell do that too? Quite a few enchantments can be said to do that. No, it saves them from sin and evil. I don't find it heretical to the Sliver Flame at all considering some of the other things they've done. Not to mention what bout the lives of innocent afflicted you will save? Instead of having to kill them you can now redeem their souls and guide them to the light of the flame? The Silver Flame would be all over this idea. You also seem to completly rule out what if someone's family member, friend, or just a Paladin who doesn't want to kill a poor innocent who was afflicted? If a Silver Flame could save his child instead of running her through you can bet he'd do this. It also doesn't FORCE you to remain neutral. You can go back to being evil. It simply shows you what your sins and evil have wrought. If you still don't care you could fall back into evil eventually, but most do become good alinged afterwards. The Silver Flame wouldn't consider this bad I don't think. They consider forcefull conversion to the Silver Flame to be bad. Also, considering that a Lycanthrope doesn't get to choose it's alingment if it's afflicted then the whole free will thing is moot isn't it? SO please stop beating that dead horse. I seriously doubt the good alinged person WANTED to get bit by a evil Lycanthrope and turn evil and kill his friends, family and innocents. Even naturally born Lycanthropes don't have free will because it depends what alingment the parent's are. Like I said, I'd see them as being marked a heretic member, especially by the Puritans. And I'm sure the SF sees charm (and similar spells) as being evil for robbing the free will. Seriously, the entire reason for hunting ALL lycanthropes, not just evil ones, was the free-will thing. Evidence found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-287579). To check, simply ctrl-F what I quoted; you'll find it. A handful of paladins found alternatives. Some helped werebears escape to Lamannia, while others sought to cure the afflicted. But... the Keeper of the Flame said that once the curse was set (changing alignment) it was too late to save the victim's soul. And so the templars relied on their silvered swords, cutting out the cancer and praying for forgiveness when innocents fell at their hands. Though again, another point here is that evil does not always equal "things possessing an evil alignment"; if a good-aligned creature presents a horrible and unavoidable threat to innocents, it represents evil to the Silver Flame. One of the threats of the curse was that it was essentially a forced supernatural conversion - and that's exactly what it looks to me like what the Silverhair does. With a religious doctrine like this, you don't fight fire with fire. That's the belief, or at least was during the purge. After looking it over, the Modern Church might be more lenient, but it is still doing exactly the same thing that lycanthropy was doing that marked it as evil. regarding paladins, that's a whole 'nother can of worms, but you're right for the most part. A paladin should try and be merciful - but being merciful by committing an act his religion considers evil? There are other ways to be merciful that don't involve messing with a creature's free will. This was the difficulty of the Purge - they could try and be merciful, but the Lycanthrope wouldn't WANT you to restore his free will, so you'd have to force him or kill him, and you can't very well force him because that's what the purge is fighting against. Some Paladins sent them to Lammania, a -sort of- loop hole, and that was as merciful as they could get. Plus, purging the curse would be HARD. The disadvantages of the Silverhair are already noted - and cures for Lycanthropy are fickle and require the consent of the werecreature. This would be a VERY rare case in the first place.
AkumaDaimyo 06-25-07, 04:24 PM	Yeah and the Keeper at the time lied didn't he? And when they talk about robbing of free will they mean like a robot under control of someone else or being turned evil. The way the Silverhair works does not turn someone into a puppet. They become neutral but could still fall back to evil or good ethier way and are in no way required to do anything whatsoever, include convert. Also this doesnt cure Lycanthropy. It simply makes a person neutral. That's it. Silverhair are Preistess of Elistrayee, not curers of Lycanthropy. I still disagree and will continue to disagree. I doubt Silver Flame cares about someone's right to be evil whatsoever. The way the doctrine reads doesn't sound like they care about that. It says purge evil from the world. They essentially don't care about people's rights to be evil a-holes.