Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Witchcraft 08-25-07, 06:42 PM	I really want to make elves in Eberron immortal (they are in my non-Eberron campaign). However, death is a big role in the lives of Eberron Elves so would you knows how to do this? When I say immortal I mean cant die of old age...they can die if being slained or disease. As for the elven dragonmarked I have this in mind: They rule and then they move on with their lives but they first have to elect a heir. As for the Undying Elves I have this in mind: They think of death as a reward and they show their love for it by the whole wearing death masks ect... Help? Pa-lease! Thanks, Witchcraft
JulesCARV 08-25-07, 07:03 PM	Hmmm... Ageless elves seem like they're radically different enough that simply using existing elf societies doesn't really work. They'd need new thematics and such. For instance, Aerenal elves wouldn't be into positive energy and necromancy, but rather be those who preserve the arcane power and legacy of the giants of Xen'drik. Back when they were the slaves of the giants, they were primarily "house slaves," and to some extent identified with and collaborated with the giants. Now they wouldn't really admit it, and claim that they hated the giants, but they've still adopted a lot of giant culture, such as an obsession with arcane magical power. Tairnadal elves would be sort of violent elf supremacists. As slaves of the giants, they were usually the worst treated slaves, one reason they regard Aerenal elves with contempt (some still have faint but visible scars from their abuse at giant hands). They were the first to resist the giants. They place a high value on martial training and combat prowess, so that "we will never have to be slaves again" or somesuch. Khorvaire elves could be those who want to put the past behind them, and are primarily disillusioned with their Aerenal and Tairnadal counterparts. However, since elves are immortals, and an elf wouldn't just live out their lives in Aundair before dying at age 500, there's somewhat more traffic among the elves. Many Khorvaire elves are former Aerenal or Tairnadal elves, and a Khorvaire elf with an intense interest in arcane might go and become an Aereni elf, migrating to Aerenal. A Khorvaire elf might remember being a privileged slave of the giants of Xen'drik for several millenia, helping them with their arcane rituals, who later went on to join the Aereni for a few millenia, before becoming disillusioned with their smugness and hypocrisy, joining the Tairnadal for 700 years, before getting sick of them too, and ultimately going to Fairhaven to just live a quiet life. As for the Blood of Vol/House Vol, make it a human/halfling/whatever House. It doesn't really make sense any more as an elven house, IMHO.
Alex_ 08-25-07, 07:07 PM	I really want to make elves in Eberron immortal (they are in my non-Eberron campaign). However, death is a big role in the lives of Eberron Elves so would you knows how to do this? When I say immortal I mean cant die of old age...they can die if being slained or disease. As for the elven dragonmarked I have this in mind: They rule and then they move on with their lives but they first have to elect a heir. As for the Undying Elves I have this in mind: They think of death as a reward and they show their love for it by the whole wearing death masks ect... Help? Pa-lease! Thanks, Witchcraft Just out of curiosity, why do you want to make Elves in your Eberron campaign immortal? Is there anything in particular you're looking to do with that? It be possible to achieve some of your story/mechanics goals in Eberron without doing it, making things much simpler and easier. Although if your desire or goals can't be compromised in those regards, then nm.
Witchcraft 08-25-07, 09:48 PM	Ok well..umm...I have always liked the idea of elves being immortal (and so does my group). I am also going to intertwin (sp?) their immortality into my group (my players are mostly elves of the house of Ph.) It will also make humans/elves less want to mate which would create more pure 1/2 elves (and I have a player who really wants this to be). To sum it all up I reall just like the idea...lol....any suggestions? Merci, Witchcraft
Witchcraft 08-25-07, 10:04 PM	Hmmm... Ageless elves seem like they're radically different enough that simply using existing elf societies doesn't really work. They'd need new thematics and such. Yep! For instance, Aerenal elves wouldn't be into positive energy and necromancy, but rather be those who preserve the arcane power and legacy of the giants of Xen'drik. Back when they were the slaves of the giants, they were primarily "house slaves," and to some extent identified with and collaborated with the giants. Now they wouldn't really admit it, and claim that they hated the giants, but they've still adopted a lot of giant culture, such as an obsession with arcane magical power. I think they would still be into the + energy and necromancy. Tairnadal elves would be sort of violent elf supremacists. As slaves of the giants, they were usually the worst treated slaves, one reason they regard Aerenal elves with contempt (some still have faint but visible scars from their abuse at giant hands). They were the first to resist the giants. They place a high value on martial training and combat prowess, so that "we will never have to be slaves again" or some such. I see...well, most of the elves of old will be dead (only a few remain) because many things could have happened in those years. Death bringing things, such as, disease, an accident (falling bridge in Sharn), being killed (and since the the Tairnadal elves are very martial this would probably be the most common occurrence), and the Great War. Khorvaire elves could be those who want to put the past behind them, and are primarily disillusioned with their Aerenal and Tairnadal counterparts. However, since elves are immortals, and an elf wouldn't just live out their lives in Aundair before dying at age 500, there's somewhat more traffic among the elves. Many Khorvaire elves are former Aerenal or Tairnadal elves, and a Khorvaire elf with an intense interest in arcane might go and become an Aereni elf, migrating to Aerenal. A Khorvaire elf might remember being a privileged slave of the giants of Xen'drik for several millenia, helping them with their arcane rituals, who later went on to join the Aereni for a few millenia, before becoming disillusioned with their smugness and hypocrisy, joining the Tairnadal for 700 years, before getting sick of them too, and ultimately going to Fairhaven to just live a quiet life. As for the Blood of Vol/House Vol, make it a human/halfling/whatever House. It doesn't really make sense any more as an elven house, IMHO. Why? If I remember correctly the ENTIRE Vol bloodline was destroyed.
JulesCARV 08-25-07, 11:14 PM	I think they would still be into the + energy and necromancy. Why? I see...well, most of the elves of old will be dead (only a few remain) because many things could have happened in those years. Death bringing things, such as, disease, an accident (falling bridge in Sharn), being killed (and since the the Tairnadal elves are very martial this would probably be the most common occurrence), and the Great War. Fair enough, although I think that elven mortality would probably decrease a bit over the ages, since older elves have already gotten really good at surviving, and accident-prone, sickly, etc, ones tend to die young. I could be wrong though. Why? If I remember correctly the ENTIRE Vol bloodline was destroyed. There's no point in the Blood of Vol as currently constituted to ageless elves. Why would they develop a religious tradition devoted to overcoming death, when they aren't mortals? If elves are really freaked out about dying, then their solution should be to take reasonable, available precautions: make healing magic (like remove disease) as widely available as possible, try to be as pacifistic as possible, etc. It seems like elves starting the Blood of Vol would be like my starting a religion devoted to ending traffic accidents. Wouldn't I be more effective if I campaigned for better automotive safety standards or road signs or something? For ageless elves, death can happen, but it's a manageable problem. Heck, if they can make death a rare enough occurence, and they have a few medium-high level artificer, clerics, or the like, even if someone does die, they could be raised. I don't know. Forming the Blood of Vol, and Qabalrin necromantic culture generally, seems kind of unmotivated to me if elves are ageless.
bad_phil 08-26-07, 11:15 AM	The problem with this idea is that the Aerenal elves lose a good concept, The Undying. These are the great elf heroes that were allowed a level of immortality via "Undeath". They are made of positive energy, so they are different from undead. If your elves are all immortals, the concept lose all it's punch. What honor is there in a reward everyone has. They become dathless because they deserved it. They are powerful elves heroes, not commoners.
Witchcraft 08-26-07, 03:01 PM	There's no point in the Blood of Vol as currently constituted to ageless elves. Why would they develop a religious tradition devoted to overcoming death, when they aren't mortals? If elves are really freaked out about dying, then their solution should be to take reasonable, available precautions: make healing magic (like remove disease) as widely available as possible, try to be as pacifistic as possible, etc. It seems like elves starting the Blood of Vol would be like my starting a religion devoted to ending traffic accidents. Wouldn't I be more effective if I campaigned for better automotive safety standards or road signs or something? For ageless elves, death can happen, but it's a manageable problem. Heck, if they can make death a rare enough occurence, and they have a few medium-high level artificer, clerics, or the like, even if someone does die, they could be raised. I don't know. Forming the Blood of Vol, and Qabalrin necromantic culture generally, seems kind of unmotivated to me if elves are ageless. If elves are immortal then they would be cautious and Vol didnt like that. They wanted to obtain true immortality. This would make them become better than other elvles because they wouldnt require air, water, food, and armor, while a Vol-ian elves need nothing. About the Aerenal Elves. In the eyes of the Aerenal elves becoming Undying isnt just becoming immortal but obtaining the honor of gaining "true immortality". In the eyes of an elf: Immortal=mortal True immortal=immortal Make sense? This is hard to explain in english.....
bad_phil 08-26-07, 04:01 PM	In a game mechanic way, the immortality of the undead and Aerenals is only on a time way. No aging, just like the elves in the Lord of the rings. What you call True immortality is Eternity. Like a god. Gods don't die. Well, not the way mortals would understand. Killing someone's essence is another thing than killing it's body. If you want elves to be gods....well go ahead. But that won't do in the campain setting. At least on my opinion. If you turn elves immortal (true or not, whatever) one way or another, it destroy some very good concept in the setting. Blood of Vol and The Undying. If you want a DM opinion, my answer to "Could elves be immortals", I'd say a definitive NO!!! Anyway, why would elves be immortals and not gnomes, halflings or humans? Warforged are, but that's normal.
Witchcraft 08-26-07, 09:30 PM	I increased gnomes to 700 years, dwarves to 500, haflings to 300, 1/2 elves to 800 and I like the idea of elves being immortal. Anyone else? Merci, Witchcraft
JulesCARV 08-26-07, 10:46 PM	Witchcraft, it seems like you already have all of the answers in mind, so I'm not really sure what you want help with. Is there some issue that remains unresolved that you can't think of an answer to? Maybe we could help you with that. (Although it seems likely that you'll reject any advice we might give in that area as well.)
bad_phil 08-26-07, 11:49 PM	I asked why you incease their age, not how many years you gave them!
Herodot83 09-05-07, 06:17 AM	Witchcraft, I also love the idea of immortal elves. Elves are, in my opinion, a very special species, not "normal" humanoids - they are a bit fairy, a bit over-natural, a reflection of a somewhat perfect state humans can never hope to achieve. And I like them this way. At least, in a more traditionally (high) fantasy setting such as Middle Earth, or Faerun/Forgotten Realms, ageless or immortal elves make perfect sense. But even in Faerun they die of old age with some 400 or 500 years... In the Eberron setting (imo), elves are not those overnatural near-perfect creatures, but primarily a very old species of humanoids who grew up as slaves of the giants on a southern jungle continent. They are a bit more "earthly" (can you say this in english? *g*), much more a "natural" species, and so immortality would, in my opinion, be contrary to their conception and role in the setting. I would suggest one of the following solutions for you (just as a helping hand for your own thoughts): a) Increase the life span of elves, say to about 1000 years. Let them age in a different way to humans: not growing wrinkles and grey hear, but just getting a bit more wise and a little bit slower and physically weaker (with the normal aging penalties - or just ignore those penalties, which would be perfectly ok in a group where nearly all characters are elfs). But you should then reduce the relative low birth rate among elves to an even lower rate. b) Introduce the concept of regular reincarnation (*) for the elves. When an elf dies, it is a period of about some decades or even centuries (unpredictable for the populace, but maybe some priest could augur this), after which the person is reborn as an elven baby. Then, when the elf has grown up (is about 20 years old, maybe), the memories of her/his past live slowly return - not all at once, which would be to great a shock. The memories can return completely, or only some, just as you as the DM would like it. Maybe regularly all memory returns after a time, but in the case of some persons, not completely - this could give interesting roleplaying hooks!). So, the elves would have some kind of immortality, could re-enter their former lives and relationships when they have regained their memory, but are not really immortal. Still, the concept of breaking this cycle of rebirth by becomming one of the Undying would be great for many elves, although this kind of undeath has its drawbacks. *g* * on the topic of reincarnation, see the thread about Dolurrh: someone suggests there that the souls of the dead are, after some time and complete "cleansing" of their memories, send back to Eberron to inhabit the empty, to this point soleless body of a child to be born. Maybe this loss of memory doesn't work with the elven mind, and the memories are only suppressed, not washed away – this would make them very special, too. c) use both a and b *g* d) Switch to a different D&D setting. Use Faerun/Forgotten Realms as a background for your campaign and make the faerunian elves immortal – I think this wouldn’t destroy their cultural concepts as described in the campaign setting, since their cultures are strongly based on Tolkien’s elves of Middle Earth, and the elves in Middle Earth are immortal. e) Create your own campaign setting, incorporating all the elements of the Eberron setting you like, and just throwing those concepts you dislike or that contradict to your immortal elves over board. It wouldn’t be Eberron in its “original” way, but if you and your players like it more this way – gl hf. *g* And maybe use the cultural concepts posted by XY, they sound fitting for immortal elves.
Teron Gorefiend 09-05-07, 10:46 PM	b) Introduce the concept of regular reincarnation (*) for the elves. When an elf dies, it is a period of about some decades or even centuries (unpredictable for the populace, but maybe some priest could augur this), after which the person is reborn as an elven baby. Then, when the elf has grown up (is about 20 years old, maybe), the memories of her/his past live slowly return - not all at once, which would be to great a shock. The memories can return completely, or only some, just as you as the DM would like it. Maybe regularly all memory returns after a time, but in the case of some persons, not completely - this could give interesting roleplaying hooks!). So, the elves would have some kind of immortality, could re-enter their former lives and relationships when they have regained their memory, but are not really immortal. Still, the concept of breaking this cycle of rebirth by becomming one of the Undying would be great for many elves, although this kind of undeath has its drawbacks. *g* * on the topic of reincarnation, see the thread about Dolurrh: someone suggests there that the souls of the dead are, after some time and complete "cleansing" of their memories, send back to Eberron to inhabit the empty, to this point soleless body of a child to be born. Maybe this loss of memory doesn't work with the elven mind, and the memories are only suppressed, not washed away – this would make them very special, too. That completely wrecks the Tairnadal culture, which is all about trying to save the souls of their worthiest ancestors after death. If they know everyone will keep coming back, they don't have to bother working and fighting all their lives to become worthy vessels so (they believe) they can save their greatest heroes from oblivion beyond Dolurrh. Just saying.
Herodot83 09-06-07, 03:59 AM	Hm... okay, I forgot about that. But, knowbody knows for sure about souls re-entering bodies, it's just a hypothesis. And if memories come back only partially, slowly, they would not know that "everybody just comes back". So their fighting and working to become worthy vessels could reassure that the right souls come back as fast as possible and have their full memory with them, perhaps - that would give back this tradition it's sense, wouldn't it?