Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 05-23-07, 09:54 PM	Okay, I've considered taking WF Juggernaught for my hammer weilding warforged. Fits him pretty well, except for one thing. The armor spikes. Don't like 'em, don't want 'em. Problem is, you get them at level 1, and the fact that they are adamantine and a class feature (which means even if somebody sunders them, they'll just grow back for free) means that not taking them is actually going to be a pretty big drop in power for the PrC (remember, virtual grapple immunity, plus the ability to use the spikes to claw your way through stone walls when you don't have weapons, as they're adamantine and will chew through hardness like it wasn't there). So, the issue is, what could I trade the spikes out for while still keeping things balanced, and better fitting with the theme of the character (which is essentially smashing with blunt objects). Off the top of my head, I'm actually thinking that giving the WF a kind of Adamantine Tracery for his slams at lvl 1, and then increasing his base slam damage to a d8 at level 4 would be balanced enough to consider. And while I've got everybody thinking along the right lines, would anyone see a problem with a custom battlefist that loses the piercing damage and gains, say, +2 to Sunder attacks made with your unarmed attack/slam? Like with the armor spikes, I don't want this character to be a porcupine, but I do want the rest of the benefits of the item, and the loss of potential DR bypassing means I don't really want to just drop the ability all together.
Dragoloth 05-23-07, 10:15 PM	Armor studs. Adamantine armor studs covering the shoulders, forearms, knees, shins, and knuckles(or anywhere that looks good to you). These would do bludgeoning dmg and being adamantine overcome the appropiate DR/. This would cover the tracery ability. I wouldn't see a problem with the battlefist with these changes. If the battlefist were adamantine it would be even better.
gensuke626 05-23-07, 11:00 PM	Dragoloth suggests armor studs, and I'm inclined to agree. Something like that would work. That or, instead of spikes, maybe your body takes on a more scalemail type appearance and the adamantine scales scratch like sharpend shark's skin? Same benefits as the spikes but the visual effect is overall different. As for the battlefist...have you talked to your DM about that yet? From my point of view, the loss of a damage type isn't a fair trade on a +2 to sunder checks... A +1 seems more appropriate, though I'd only be able to tell with some playtesting. (And I don't know how often you fight things with DR/pireceing...if it's alot, then maybe the +2 would be fair...again, needs to be tested in my oppinion.)
Ukkic 05-23-07, 11:24 PM	Studs dealing damage in a grapple? That sounds a little weird to me. It could be called studs, but I like the adamantine damage to slam. Increasing the slam damage to D8 would be like getting a free non-magic battlefist right, to me that's probably a pretty good trade, exchange a little defence ( no one wants to grapple you), for a little offence (D8 natural attack, probably not a primary weapon). ~Ukkic
Edymnion 05-24-07, 08:30 AM	Armor studs. Adamantine armor studs covering the shoulders, forearms, knees, shins, and knuckles(or anywhere that looks good to you). These would do bludgeoning dmg and being adamantine overcome the appropiate DR/. This would cover the tracery ability. I wouldn't see a problem with the battlefist with these changes. If the battlefist were adamantine it would be even better.I'm not a fan of armor studs either, primarily because I don't see studs being able to do damage in a grapple. What are they going to do, rub you to death? ;) If anything, an adamantine tracery ability on the slam would be weaker than the spikes. The spikes you grow do the same base damage as your slam, and count as a weapon, meaning you could attack with the spikes and slam on the same turn. Actually, you could attack with a 1h weapon, the spikes, and then slam as well. Losing the spikes effectively means you lose one potential attack per round.That or, instead of spikes, maybe your body takes on a more scalemail type appearance and the adamantine scales scratch like sharpend shark's skin? Same benefits as the spikes but the visual effect is overall different.Thats just it, I know the effect I'm going for, and it doesn't involve pointy/scratchy bits of any kind, to the point he's not even going to carry slashing/piercing weapons, only his hammer and his fists. As for the battlefist...have you talked to your DM about that yet? From my point of view, the loss of a damage type isn't a fair trade on a +2 to sunder checks... A +1 seems more appropriate, though I'd only be able to tell with some playtesting. (And I don't know how often you fight things with DR/pireceing...if it's alot, then maybe the +2 would be fair...again, needs to be tested in my oppinion.)No, this character does not have a game yet, so there is no DM to bounce this stuff off of.It could be called studs, but I like the adamantine damage to slam. Increasing the slam damage to D8 would be like getting a free non-magic battlefist right, to me that's probably a pretty good trade, exchange a little defence ( no one wants to grapple you), for a little offence (D8 natural attack, probably not a primary weapon).Actually, you're losing offence. The armor spikes do a d6 when you get them, which is the same as your slam. At 4th level they do a d8, which is why I proposed increasing the Slam to match. Of course, the argument could be made that increasing the slam damage could balance out with the loss of the off-hand spike attack in that one could also take Second Slam as a feat, and get two 1d8 adm slams instead of a 1d6 slam and a 1d8 adm spike. Which could itself be countered with the fact that you could easily enchant the armor spikes, while enchanting your fists is much more difficult. Then there's the battlefist to take into account, which may or may not be enchantable depending on who you ask, and how it would stack with the increased slam damage...
Forged_Fury 05-24-07, 08:56 AM	As to the Battlefist, I think it is fine. Dropping Piercing makes the weapon ineffective WRT getting out of a creature's belly, in addition to the DR issues. I developed a WF Cleric and wanted to make a new battlefist. I dropped the Piercing damage and the damage dice down to 1d6. I gave it an integrated Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol, which I thought was a pretty fair trade for the loss. Called it a Fist of Faith, same price as a standard battlefist. -Forged_Fury
ChristopherGroves 05-24-07, 09:08 AM	Okay, I've considered taking WF Juggernaught for my hammer weilding warforged. Fits him pretty well, except for one thing. The armor spikes. Don't like 'em, don't want 'em. Problem is, you get them at level 1, and the fact that they are adamantine and a class feature (which means even if somebody sunders them, they'll just grow back for free) means that not taking them is actually going to be a pretty big drop in power for the PrC (remember, virtual grapple immunity, plus the ability to use the spikes to claw your way through stone walls when you don't have weapons, as they're adamantine and will chew through hardness like it wasn't there). So, the issue is, what could I trade the spikes out for while still keeping things balanced, and better fitting with the theme of the character (which is essentially smashing with blunt objects). Off the top of my head, I'm actually thinking that giving the WF a kind of Adamantine Tracery for his slams at lvl 1, and then increasing his base slam damage to a d8 at level 4 would be balanced enough to consider. And while I've got everybody thinking along the right lines, would anyone see a problem with a custom battlefist that loses the piercing damage and gains, say, +2 to Sunder attacks made with your unarmed attack/slam? Like with the armor spikes, I don't want this character to be a porcupine, but I do want the rest of the benefits of the item, and the loss of potential DR bypassing means I don't really want to just drop the ability all together. Wasn't there a WF in the Voyage of the Golden Dragon with a custom sundering component fisty-thing?
Edymnion 05-25-07, 04:19 PM	Wasn't there a WF in the Voyage of the Golden Dragon with a custom sundering component fisty-thing?Dunno, I never read it all the way through, just browsed it. But the point has been rendered academic, as I realized while I was picking what feats he'd need that I had forgotten about Weapon Supremacy, which requires an 18th level Fighter. So, no PRC for this WF, its straight up fighter.
PiccaloJr 05-27-07, 03:22 PM	Might be a touch off the original topic, but have you looked at the fighter variant ability Dungeon Crasher in Dungeonscape? Gives you bonus damage when making a bull rush, 4d6 then 8d6 I think, when you nail someone into a solid object. You give up your 2nd and 6th level feat, but combined with the WFJ bull rush flavor it can make for some sick damage. ^_^
Edymnion 05-27-07, 03:57 PM	I did find a nifty little something in the Magic Item Compendium that is just BEGGING to get made into a battlefist though. Unique item, "The Fist", p.51 of MIC. Its a +1 Adamantine Spiked Guantlet (take off adamantine, and you've got the base battlefist right there) that, once per day, lets you deal extra damage on your unarmed attack, knock the target prone, and stun them all at the same time. Replace the base adm gauntlet with a battlefist, and stick the Brutal Surge enchantment on there (after you hit, activate the weapon and it initiates an improved bullrush using your size that pushes them back without you moving), and you've got a punch that sends them flying back and landing flat on their backs. Sweet.
Runepriest 05-27-07, 09:30 PM	Or keep the adamantine and your sending golems flying and dealing very good damage.