Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Syltorian 01-07-08, 10:22 AM	I have here a list of questions relating to dragonmarks, dragonmarked houses, and half-elves in combination with Kalashtar. The premises: Kalashtar can never gain dragonmarks (ECS) They can interbreed with humans and half-elves (RoE) The child has the race of the parent whose gender it matches (RoE) The child of a half-elf and a human has a 50% chance of belonging to either race (Half-Elves in Khorvaire Dragonshard) Dragonmarks are more magic than genetics, but still follow some rules. The basic scenario is improbable, but not impossible. The hypothetical case: A male Medani half-elf and a female kalashtar have a female child. That child is born a kalashtar. [Note: I have chosen Medani because a) they allow me to combine the questions about dragonmarks and those about half-elves (otherwise, human houses would have worked too). b) they are not purist in who gets to join the house, and so are a more likely (if still rather improbable) example for this scenario than Lyrandar.] The questions: (1) Does this girl differ from a kalashtar born of human/kalashtar parents. I was thinking of changing the disguise bonus for impersonating a human into a bonus for impersonating a half-elf. The rest would probably not be rules-based changes, but mere cosmetic clues to her heritage. This is a question for any kalashtar of half-elven parentage, of course, whether of one of the Houses or not. (2) How would Medani elders react? Dragonmarked presents them as fairly open about their intermarriages with humans and elves, though they do not consider other races appropriate. But do they even know that kalashtar are different, and not just weird humans from a far-off continent with some wacky talents? (actually, are they not just weird humans from a far-off continent with some wacky talents?). Would they care since at least some children can carry the mark (same chance as with a human)? (2.1) How would other houses whose genetics are compatible (Cannith, Deneith, Lyrandar, Orien, Vadalis) react to a union of one of their own with a kalashtar? (3) Assuming that Medani accepts the marriage, recognises the child and does not proceed to excoriate the father, what would the Dreaming Dark on the one hand, and the Inspired Ambassadors of Riedra on the other do? The kalashtar will be rather exposed and more of a public figure, thus easier to detect by the quori; but she will also be better guarded and sheltered by an organisation Riedra might not want to antagonise at this moment. DD is of course a different matter, given their plans for other houses. (4) If the kalashtar child of this example marries a half-elf with no dragonmarked background and has a son, can this son bear a dragonmark (since he is a half-elf with Medani ancestors)? She does have a bond to Medani, and that bond might continue and satisfy the requirement for her own offspring's dragonmarks. Conversely, could she go on to marry a half-elf of Lyrandar decent without letting all hell loose because of the threat of a mixed mark? (4.1) Alternatively, a child is born human from a Medani/human marriage, then marries another half-elf (no connection to the houses) later on. That child is born a half-elf (50% chance again). Can the latter child develop a Mark of Detection, even if the human parent cannot? (5) If the kalashtar child marries a human and has a male child, is the child always human (as the father, straight by the book), or does it have the 50% chance of being a half-elf (since the mother is of half-elven descend, even if her kalashtar features override that as far as game statistics are concerned, and children of humans and half-elves have a chance of being half-elven)? This obviously depends on the answer to question (1) Further Developments Thanks a lot for any answers. Thanks also for any additional thoughts related on this matter that have not specifically been asked for - from ideas about characters in this situation, impact on those around them, and so forth, anything is welcome!
Edymnion 01-07-08, 01:20 PM	(1) Does this girl differ from a kalashtar born of human/kalashtar parents. I was thinking of changing the disguise bonus for impersonating a human into a bonus for impersonating a half-elf. The rest would probably not be rules-based changes, but mere cosmetic clues to her heritage. This is a question for any kalashtar of half-elven parentage, of course, whether of one of the Houses or not.By the books, no, they are either one or the other. They are either fully half elf, fully human, or fully kalashtar. (2) How would Medani elders react? Dragonmarked presents them as fairly open about their intermarriages with humans and elves, though they do not consider other races appropriate. But do they even know that kalashtar are different, and not just weird humans from a far-off continent with some wacky talents? (actually, are they not just weird humans from a far-off continent with some wacky talents?). Would they care since at least some children can carry the mark (same chance as with a human)?It would depend on several things. Do your Medani even know what Kalashtar are in the first place? The Kalashtar are fighting a secret war, they don't go around flaunting themselves. Its entirely possible that the house as a whole simply has not had enough experience with the Kalashtar to actually form an opinion one way or the other. Does she flaunt the fact that she's not human? Kalashtar get +2 to Disguise for pretending to be human, which cancels out the normal penalty for looking like another race, meaning that for all intents and purposes, they look human. Even if the house knows about Kalashtar, do they know that she is one? (2.1) How would other houses whose genetics are compatible (Cannith, Deneith, Lyrandar, Orien, Vadalis) react to a union of one of their own with a kalashtar?Same as above, it would depend entirely on how much they know, and how much she flaunts being one. Even taking a middle ground where they know she isn't human, but don't quite know what she is, their reaction would likely be the same as marrying any other non-human. If, on the other hand, the house knows about the Dreaming Dark and the Kalashtar, things could get messy. They could either try to push the couple as far away as possible to try to keep the Dreaming Dark away from them, or they could suddenly find her to be VERY interesting, which is generally not a good thing either. (3) Assuming that Medani accepts the marriage, recognises the child and does not proceed to excoriate the father, what would the Dreaming Dark on the one hand, and the Inspired Ambassadors of Riedra on the other do? The kalashtar will be rather exposed and more of a public figure, thus easier to detect by the quori; but she will also be better guarded and sheltered by an organisation Riedra might not want to antagonise at this moment. DD is of course a different matter, given their plans for other houses.For the child, as long as they aren't Kalashtar, the Dreaming Dark wouldn't care about it one way or the other. If it is kalashtar, then it would be just as much a target as any other kalashtar. Like it's mother, they would do well to *NOT* publically flaunt the fact that they are Kalashtar to the general populace, which will likely get them killed. Considering that the Dreaming Dark can attack through dreams, and even control people to some extent, being in a great house would not offer nearly as much protection as you would think. (4) If the kalashtar child of this example marries a half-elf with no dragonmarked background and has a son, can this son bear a dragonmark (since he is a half-elf with Medani ancestors)? She does have a bond to Medani, and that bond might continue and satisfy the requirement for her own offspring's dragonmarks. Conversely, could she go on to marry a half-elf of Lyrandar decent without letting all hell loose because of the threat of a mixed mark?I would say that the kalashtar child breaks the line for Dragonmarks. She isn't a half elf, she is incapable of carrying the mark or ever have any potential to carry it, so I would personally say that anything like that would have to come through the father's side. (4.1) Alternatively, a child is born human from a Medani/human marriage, then marries another half-elf (no connection to the houses) later on. That child is born a half-elf (50% chance again). Can the latter child develop a Mark of Detection, even if the human parent cannot?As long as one of the parents could manifest the mark, IMO, yes, the child could manifest it as well. (5) If the kalashtar child marries a human and has a male child, is the child always human (as the father, straight by the book), or does it have the 50% chance of being a half-elf (since the mother is of half-elven descend, even if her kalashtar features override that as far as game statistics are concerned, and children of humans and half-elves have a chance of being half-elven)? This obviously depends on the answer to question (1)Previous lineage does not factor into it. The parents are Human and Kalashtar. The offspring will be human, or kalashtar, based on gender. Thanks a lot for any answers. Thanks also for any additional thoughts related on this matter that have not specifically been asked for - from ideas about characters in this situation, impact on those around them, and so forth, anything is welcome!K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple, Stupid. Basically, don't try to over-think it. If the story requires something freaky, then forget the rules, and just do it for the cool factor. If you actually want to follow the rules, then just use the rules. When an offspring can be either or, it always looks at *ONLY* the parents. D&D doesn't keep detailed genetic lineages of characters and assign probabilities of traits resurfacing, it simplifies it all down to "You are either Race X or Y". You could be an offspring of a human and a half elf, and be human with slightly pointed ears and trouble growing a beard, but mechanically, you are human. By this point, the "gene" is so dilute, you will never have any child or grandchild or anything else that is anything BUT human, unless one of them marries an odd race, at which point it starts over. If you want to override that, as a DM you can. If you're just looking for a rule of thumb though, only look at the two parents involved. They have a definate race, ignore everything else in their past lineages. They are either human, kalashtar, half-elf, or whatever else. When it comes to what kind of children they can have, and what kind of abilities those children can have, thats all that matters.
cloud413 01-07-08, 01:32 PM	The Dad could have had an affair with the Mom.
RedRider 01-07-08, 01:57 PM	(1) Does this girl differ from a kalashtar born of human/kalashtar parents. I was thinking of changing the disguise bonus for impersonating a human into a bonus for impersonating a half-elf. The rest would probably not be rules-based changes, but mere cosmetic clues to her heritage. This is a question for any kalashtar of half-elven parentage, of course, whether of one of the Houses or not. I'd say you'd probably see some cosmetic differences, but remember that Kalashtar differ from humans slightly in that they tend to have more perfect features, so it wouldn't be exactly like what you'd see from the child of a pure human and half-elf. I'd probably just stick with the bonus to imitating humans. (2) How would Medani elders react? Dragonmarked presents them as fairly open about their intermarriages with humans and elves, though they do not consider other races appropriate. But do they even know that kalashtar are different, and not just weird humans from a far-off continent with some wacky talents? (actually, are they not just weird humans from a far-off continent with some wacky talents?). Would they care since at least some children can carry the mark (same chance as with a human)? I don't have Dragonmarked on hand, so I'm probably not as clear on the attitudes of Medani. I don't think it's a huge well-hidden secret that the Kalashtar are different from humans, but it's not something most of Khorvaire would know much about. The educated or well travelled probably know they're not exactly human. (Similarly, everyone knows magic is real, but normal peasentry probably think of Psionics as another form of magic.) For the reaction, see 2.1, but I think Medani would be very interested if they knew more about the potential of Psionic Dragonmarked Heirs. (Clairsentience powers which normal Khorvaire Criminals probably aren't familiar with? Tell me more...) (2.1) How would other houses whose genetics are compatible (Cannith, Deneith, Lyrandar, Orien, Vadalis) react to a union of one of their own with a kalashtar?Go by what's in dragonmarked, I guess, but remember that the local reaction to the union is probably more important than the overall house attitude, unless there's a house wide adherance to tradition and obedience to the head. (So you're worried more about what the immediate family of the heir thinks rather than what Baron Trelib would say.) (3) Assuming that Medani accepts the marriage, recognises the child and does not proceed to excoriate the father, what would the Dreaming Dark on the one hand, and the Inspired Ambassadors of Riedra on the other do? The kalashtar will be rather exposed and more of a public figure, thus easier to detect by the quori; but she will also be better guarded and sheltered by an organisation Riedra might not want to antagonise at this moment. DD is of course a different matter, given their plans for other houses. Remember that Rideria isn't out to hunt down and kill all Kalashtar and persecute them at every turn (yet), rather they're playing a long term game where they subvert Khorvaire from within and then kill off the kalashtar carrying the traitor quori spirits. Though if you somehow end up with a Kalashtar with a dragonmark expect The Inspired to become VERY interested. (The Inspired are created from the mixed blood of many races. If they could breed in the potential for developing dragonmarks, that gives them more tools and a shot at influencing the prophecy.) (4) If the kalashtar child of this example marries a half-elf with no dragonmarked background and has a son, can this son bear a dragonmark (since he is a half-elf with Medani ancestors)? She does have a bond to Medani, and that bond might continue and satisfy the requirement for her own offspring's dragonmarks. Conversely, could she go on to marry a half-elf of Lyrandar decent without letting all hell loose because of the threat of a mixed mark? Since the kalashtar child would have Medani blood, I'd say that opens up the chance for Marked children, both those with pure marks and mixed marks. At the very least, members of other dragonmarked families are going to regard any possibility of mixing the blood as a serious risk. (4.1) Alternatively, a child is born human from a Medani/human marriage, then marries another half-elf (no connection to the houses) later on. That child is born a half-elf (50% chance again). Can the latter child develop a Mark of Detection, even if the human parent cannot?I'd say yes. Though I'd consider making it less likely if there's ever a large enough sample of data to consider. (5) If the kalashtar child marries a human and has a male child, is the child always human (as the father, straight by the book), or does it have the 50% chance of being a half-elf (since the mother is of half-elven descend, even if her kalashtar features override that as far as game statistics are concerned, and children of humans and half-elves have a chance of being half-elven)? This obviously depends on the answer to question (1)Well, taking it back to the 50% rule, a child of a human and a half elf has a 50% chance of being human. I'd say the human child of such a pairing producing a child with a human would be human. (Human & Human -> Human Child.) With the Kalashtar, since the child would have been human if it wasn't Kalashtar, I'd say that nixes the possibility of them having half-elf kids. If it suits the game's story, you could allow a statistically insignifigant chance of getting a half elf if there's some elf blood somwhere down the line for one of the humans.
Syltorian 01-07-08, 02:52 PM	Do your Medani even know what Kalashtar are in the first place? I don't think it's a huge well-hidden secret that the Kalashtar are different from humans, but it's not something most of Khorvaire would know much about. The educated or well travelled probably know they're not exactly human. (Similarly, everyone knows magic is real, but normal peasentry probably think of Psionics as another form of magic.) That's one of the things I have been wondering about, regarding the Kalashtar. My own take on the matter is that 99.9% of the population of Khorvaire have no idea a Kalashtar is not a human. A weird human, an unsettingly beautiful and charming human, but a human nevertheless. Much like the Inspired, they're humans, from a strange continent. Except, of course, that they haven't aged since you went to school fourty years ago... The only people on Khorvaire who know different are the Kalashtar themselves, the Inspired, the Adaran and Riedran imigrants, the rare people to have either become intimate enough with the kalashtar to be told, who have studied the planes well enough to know about the rebel Quori (scholars you can probably count on one hand), or who found out by experiment or accident (why doesn't my human-bane weapon work?). Apart from them, most people on Sarlona know they are not human, though the Riedrans still only know half the truth, the Chamber knows quite well, and nobody on Xen'drik (excepting Khorvairian and Riedran colonies) has the faintest clue. The Lords of Dust are probably aware of it too. So, as far as my own view of the world goes, Medani has no clue their new in-law is not an Adaran human who, in addition to being a really charming girl has some interesting contacts in the Adaran population and seems to have a knack for getting people to trust her. All in all, rather useful in the counter-intelligence business. But as said, that's my own opinion on the matter, and I wanted to check out what other people think. Regarding the +2 Disguise check, I can also see two different interpretations. Does this mean that they do actually look like humans, even undisguised, and that the bonus comes in once they want to disguise themselves as a particular human (since, as you say, they make the disguise check with the same modifier as if they were human already, i.e. +0), or do they have to actively disguise themselves, albeit at no penalty? With my take on the matter, it's obviously the former, but I'm not necessarily correct. If I read your answer correctly, Edy, you are going with the first answer, too, whereas yu, RedRider, are going with the latter? If, on the other hand, the house knows about the Dreaming Dark and the Kalashtar, things could get messy. They could either try to push the couple as far away as possible to try to keep the Dreaming Dark away from them, or they could suddenly find her to be VERY interesting, which is generally not a good thing either. Good question. Difficult choice. My tendency would be that Medani in particular - assuming they know about the Dark, which I don't think they do yet - would realise that pushing her away will not help them. The Dreaming Dark will eventually proceed against them: they are probably Khorvaire's best counter-intelligence service, and thus a threat to the Dark's activities. But they would not want to have their hand forced either, and if they are on to the Dreaming Dark without the Quori having found out yet, drawing attention to themselves will be dangerous too. For the child, as long as they aren't Kalashtar, the Dreaming Dark wouldn't care about it one way or the other. If it is kalashtar, then it would be just as much a target as any other kalashtar. Like it's mother, they would do well to *NOT* publically flaunt the fact that they are Kalashtar to the general populace, which will likely get them killed. Considering that the Dreaming Dark can attack through dreams, and even control people to some extent, being in a great house would not offer nearly as much protection as you would think. Another good point. I tend to see psionics as different from magic, so Medani defenses would be less effective or utterly worthless against the new threat. Medani would be one of the most difficult places to infiltrate, but not an impossible one if the Dark really invested into it. I'm still wondering, connected to what I said above about my idea how most of Khorvaire doesn't know about the kalashtar, whether "not flaunting" yourself is enough. I assume that you can go about your work without people realising anything, but if you go to the ir'Tain gala with your family and meet the Inspired ambassador, you'll have to be actively disguised. Go by what's in dragonmarked, I guess, but remember that the local reaction to the union is probably more important than the overall house attitude, unless there's a house wide adherance to tradition and obedience to the head. (So you're worried more about what the immediate family of the heir thinks rather than what Baron Trelib would say.) True. But there would have to be some larger picture, if the kalashtar were to travel to a different enclave. Although I guess the point is still the same: if Sharn enclave accepts you, and Fairhaven doesn't, Baron Trelib in Wroat still doesn't count for that much - especially since Medani apparently has a certain allergy towards authority, according to Dragonmarked. For the reaction, see 2.1, but I think Medani would be very interested if they knew more about the potential of Psionic Dragonmarked Heirs. (Clairsentience powers which normal Khorvaire Criminals probably aren't familiar with? Tell me more...) They would certainly see some profit in there, especially if one uses the psionics are different (or somewhat different) variants. You can breach a good number of defenses that way, without anyone realising you actually did something. No components, no gestures, no words... The Shadow Houses will grow jealous that Kalashtar are not compatible with elves! :P I would say that the kalashtar child breaks the line for Dragonmarks. She isn't a half elf, she is incapable of carrying the mark or ever have any potential to carry it, so I would personally say that anything like that would have to come through the father's side. As long as one of the parents could manifest the mark, IMO, yes, the child could manifest it as well. Since the kalashtar child would have Medani blood, I'd say that opens up the chance for Marked children, both those with pure marks and mixed marks. At the very least, members of other dragonmarked families are going to regard any possibility of mixing the blood as a serious risk. Logical replies both, even if they are contradictory. ;) The thing that is certain, I believe, is that other houses will not take the risk - whether or not it is possible; dragonmarks are too mysterious even for their bearers to be sure about that. As for the rest... Though if you somehow end up with a Kalashtar with a dragonmark expect The Inspired to become VERY interested. (The Inspired are created from the mixed blood of many races. If they could breed in the potential for developing dragonmarks, that gives them more tools and a shot at influencing the prophecy.) You'd also have to hope the Chamber doesn't get your address. I had not planned on giving the Kalashtar a dragonmark, but I might have to archive the idea of dragonmark heirs empty vessels/inspired for some other time. Something like that sounds very interesting indeed. Though, of course, it would not work on Sarlona, where dragonmarks do not develop; pity, they cannot make experiments on those marked heirs currently in their port city. They would have to increase their subtle activities in Khorvaire. Though it would also break the 'truce' they have with Argonessen, at the moment, so they'd have to be very careful going down that road. Previous lineage does not factor into it. The parents are Human and Kalashtar. The offspring will be human, or kalashtar, based on gender. I'd say yes. Though I'd consider making it less likely if there's ever a large enough sample of data to consider. Again two IMO equally valid opinions, where I find it difficult to make a choice... K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple, Stupid. Guilty as charged. I tend to over-think matters too much, while I am aware it's a bottomless pit most of the time. I love details too much! :D If the story requires something freaky, then forget the rules, and just do it for the cool factor. If you actually want to follow the rules, then just use the rules. If it suits the game's story, you could allow a statistically insignifigant chance of getting a half elf if there's some elf blood somwhere down the line for one of the humans. That seems to be what it all comes down to. Thanks to both of a lot you for your answers!
Wymarc 01-07-08, 04:03 PM	if Medani does know about Kalashtar, I think they would value a natural telepath. If they know about the Dreaming Dark, then they would be interested in finding ways to keep their client's secrets out of their hands, and the Kalashtar would be very useful for that. If Medani doesn't know about either, they would have no reason not to incorporate the Kalashtar child into the house. If the child develops his/her telepathic ability, he/she would become a prized agent.
Syltorian 01-09-08, 08:43 AM	Nice argument Wymarc! So, either way you look at it, the situation could make sense. Thanks a lot. :)