Post/Author/DateTime	Post
orangevoodoo 06-24-07, 05:13 PM	I'm trying to find out if there is a better description of what exact intelligence Karnathi Skeletons and Zombies have, specifically with respect to their previous life. Alas, Libris Mortis doesn't really discuss intelligent skeletons (outside of liches) and I can't find anything in the Eberron books that helps. All I can really find is that it is a variant Animate Dead spell (as Bone Knight can create Karnathi and Five Nations specifies Bone Knights' cast Animate Dead.) While it says they are intelligent and keep their HD, I can't find anywhere that specifies how much of their life they remember. It seems like its a possible way to be "raised from the dead" that doesn't give you loss of a level. Its not even clear if you are "automatically" under the command of the person who animated you, as animate dead normally controls non-intelligent undead. The Create Undead spells specify you only get "auto" control if they are non-intelligent, but Bone Knight makes it sound like the undead are automatically under your command when you bring them back. Does anyone know of more details as to the changes a character would undergo (other than the obvious game effects) from being brought back as a Karnathi skeleton? Specifically with respect to their memories.
TiwazTyrsfist 06-24-07, 06:11 PM	So, where does it say they are intellegent and retain the HD? I can't find it, but I'm not looking that hard. I would assume, if they retain thier intellegence and HD, that they retain Class levels, Skills, Feats, and if applicable spell casting ability and spell list. Likewise, I would assume that they retain their full memory, though possibly thier point of view on many things would be quite different than when they were alive.
Nived 06-24-07, 06:12 PM	not exactly what you're looking for but it answers it in a roundabout way. Q: I was wondering exactly what game mechanics go into creating the Karrnathi skeletons and zombies...or if you can at least give an estimate on their 'production rate'? If you look at the ECS, the following statements are made about both forms of Karrnathi undead: "It (bones/flesh) have been treated alchemically to make them more resilient. Karrnathi (skeletons/zombies) are created from the remains of elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle." There are two points here: the treatment of the remains and the nature of the soldier. I'll start with the second point… the fact that the undead must be made from an elite Karrnathi soldier slain in battle. Some people have suggested that if Karrnath was smart, it would just kill all its soldiers and raise them as Karrnathi undead, because the undead are more effective than a typical first level warrior. But that's just the point: a typical first level warrior couldn't be used to create a Karrnathi skeleton; only "elite" soldiers can serve this purpose. Personally, I would require the subject to have been at least third level in life in order to be eligible to be raised as a Karrnathi undead… and he does need to have died in battle, fighting for his country. It's important to understand that Karrnathi undead are not the people they were in life. It's not a cheap substitute for raise dead. Every Karrnathi skeleton has the same skills, and like normal skeletons, cannot advance in hit dice. Despite being intelligent and aware, their consciousness is not human. Most priests say that the Karrnathi undead are vessels for the fighting spirit of Karrnath itself, and this would explain both the need for the body to be that of a skilled soldier and death in battle; the body must be spiritually prepared to rise as an undead warrior. Of course, spiritual preparations are only part of the challenge of creating Karrnathi undead; there's also that alchemical treatment. Normally, the animate dead spell requires components worth 25 gp/hit die. For Karrnathi undead, I'd double that cost to take these alchemical salves into account, and personally say that the bodies are normally soaked in these substances. This would mean that a normal priest or necromancer couldn't raise a Karrnathi undead ON the battlefield, because the body has to be prepared. The obvious exception to this point is the bone knight, who has the spell-like ability to create Karrnathi undead (and spell-like abilities ignore components). However, even in the case of the bone knight, I would insist that the targeted corpses be those of elite Karrnathi soldiers – not peasants, not green conscripts, and certainly not enemies of the nation. So in terms of speed of production, the key issue is that in order to create a Karrnathi undead soldier, you first need a dead elite soldier – and if those soldiers are doing their jobs, their corpses will be in short supply. Bear in mind that not every undead soldier in the armies of Karrnath is Karrnathi undead; they certainly employ traditional skeletons and zombies in addition to the sentient elites. Bolded what I felt was relevant.
gensuke626 06-24-07, 06:41 PM	Karrnathi Skeletons and Karrnathi Zombies have Intelligence scores of 11, as stated in their stat blocks on page 292 of the ECS. I'll poke through Five Nations and the other books when I get home for info on Hit Dice, but the Skeletons and Zombies in the ECS have 3 HD a piece with no possibility for advancement.
Revvecor 06-24-07, 06:49 PM	In Faiths of Eberron pg26 the head of the Karrnathi Skeletons and Zombies had several levels of necromancer. To me this implies that Karrnoth undead retain character levels they had in life.
Syltorian 06-24-07, 07:02 PM	In Faiths of Eberron pg26 the head of the Karrnathi Skeletons and Zombies had several levels of necromancer. To me this implies that Karrnoth undead retain character levels they had in life. Strange. By the ECS, they cannot advance, and Keith Baker's comments here and elsewhere also support the theory that they are all alike with none of the memories of their former life. I believe it was stated around the boards that it's not their soul that animates them, but the Spirit of Karrnath, so it's not really your old mate... But that's a good catch there... perhaps one could explain this by saying that occasionally, a very strong-minded individual does keep some of his life experience? Something went wrong with the ritual, and the soul refused to properly depart? It's equally strange that the creature has risen to status of General... With regards to that, and with the new material, I'd make him a Karrnathi Dread Marshal (FoWp.151) now. But yes, that's a good catch...
gensuke626 06-24-07, 07:38 PM	Maybe it's not that something went wrong, but rather, the ritual worked too well. Maybe the Karrnathi Undead are animated by a combination of negative energy and the spirit of Karrnath (Thus the requirement for Elite and Patriotic soldiers to begin with) but perhaps some individuals are so partiotic and so firecely loyal to their motherland that their soul lingers near the body, constantly trying to coax it back to life, to contiue fighting. When they watch as their body is remade into a Karrnathi undead, they try to re-enter their body just as the necromantic energy flows into their alchemically prepared limbs. Some souls are destroyed in the process, but some few have such strength, pride, and devotion that they sort of fuse with the energy and the spirit of their nation, thus granting even greater intelligence and potential...
Syltorian 06-24-07, 07:48 PM	That would work, especially in cases where the person would have been determined enough to otherwise have returned as a ghost. (Small side question: if the Karrnathi undead are not animated by their actual spirits, could there be a ghost and a zombie of the same person at the same time?) Another idea to limit this happening is this kind of thing has a greater chance to occur if you try to rise a Karrnathi undead in a manifest zone to Dollurh. One would require a reason why Karrnath didn't try to exploit it, however. Maybe such a manifest zone interfered with the ritual, and more often than not they got the wrong soul into the body. Not necessarily one of their own side, either, just any that happen to float around. Such undead would often attack the necromancers if they were too strong.
Revvecor 06-24-07, 07:59 PM	(Small side question: if the Karrnathi undead are not animated by their actual spirits, could there be a ghost and a zombie of the same person at the same time?) I hadn't thought about that. It would make sense to get both from a single person Another idea to limit this happening is this kind of thing has a greater chance to occur if you try to rise a Karrnathi undead in a manifest zone to Dollurh. This would also cause the Karrnathian military to place heavy guards around these zones to keep outsiders from interfering with the creation of the undead. One would require a reason why Karrnath didn't try to exploit it, however. Maybe such a manifest zone interfered with the ritual, and more often than not they got the wrong soul into the body. Not necessarily one of their own side, either, just any that happen to float around. Such undead would often attack the necromancers if they were too strong. Who says they didn't exploit these zones? The presents of these zones could explain the vast numbers of undead the Karrnathians have.
Nived 06-24-07, 08:01 PM	That would work, especially in cases where the person would have been determined enough to otherwise have returned as a ghost. (Small side question: if the Karrnathi undead are not animated by their actual spirits, could there be a ghost and a zombie of the same person at the same time?) I don't know if it's possible by the rules... but that's too cool an idea to pass up.
Divine_Spark 06-24-07, 08:09 PM	I don't see why it wouldn't work. Mechanically speaking, once the soul has departed the body there really isn't anything binding them together. makes for some interesting scenarios; Tie a ghost to it's rotting corpse and have it re-animated by the resident necromancer! Hi-jinks abound!
Nived 06-24-07, 08:42 PM	An Elite Karnnathi soldier who was a follower of the Host not being able to rest until his body does. Hilarity ensues.
DragoonDarkfire 06-24-07, 09:06 PM	An Elite Karnnathi soldier who was a follower of the Host not being able to rest until his body does. Hilarity ensues. I smell a sit com. OR EVEN BETTER! A REALITY TV SHOW! "Alright Miss Terina of Thrane, you have 7 men here to choose from. The catch? One of them is possessed by a Rakshasa. Can you choose the right man for the job?"
Syltorian 06-25-07, 06:38 AM	Who says they didn't exploit these zones? The presents of these zones could explain the vast numbers of undead the Karrnathians have. True, but in my scenario, the presence of Dollurh doesn't so much enhance the ritual as it makes it more risky: it draws random souls into the body (either people who died nearby, or those who were just nearby in Dollurh itself). For manifest zones to actually enhance the undead, I'd look towards Mabar.
Revvecor 06-25-07, 07:21 AM	True, but in my scenario, the presence of Dollurh doesn't so much enhance the ritual as it makes it more risky: it draws random souls into the body (either people who died nearby, or those who were just nearby in Dollurh itself). For manifest zones to actually enhance the undead, I'd look towards Mabar. It is true that Mabar being centermost increases the potency of negative spells and abilities, but I was thinking it would be Dollurh being centermost would be best given the fact that there is a high likelihood of bringing back more undead then normal. Although in retrospect in an area that had manifest zones of both would not only let you create more powerful and a larger quantity, but there could be a increase in control over what is inhabiting the undead that are raised. (this is just a though not cannon)
Syltorian 06-25-07, 08:53 AM	It is true that Mabar being centermost increases the potency of negative spells and abilities, but I was thinking it would be Dollurh being centermost would be best given the fact that there is a high likelihood of bringing back more undead then normal. I'd personally say that Dollurh is more likely to send an entity or soul that possesses and inhabits the body, or simply exists as a ghost, than it is to actually reanimate it. Thus I'd see undead created by that plane as rather different than those created under the influence of Mabar. Here is how I would deal with it - of course this isn't canon either: Mabran undead are either shambling corpses without a soul, or undead craving life energy, flesh, blood, strength, or the like. They are zombies and ghouls, vampires and wights, and in general they are evil, driven by a need to feed and destroy, just like Mabar itself does. Those who fall under the influence of Mabar usually don't have a choice about it; sooner or later, the plane takes them over completely. Mabran undead are a perversion of life, an unholy corruption of nature, but the energy that binds them can usually be severed from their bodies, giving them a final rest, unless they have something that binds them to this world (phylactery, coffin, etc). In short, they are the Evil Undead. Dollurhan undead, on the other hand, are not necessarily evil. They are often confused, helpless, unable to understand they are dead, and if they are craving for something, it is emotion and the ability to fit back in; basically, what they lost in Dollurh. That does not make them less dangerous. Confused creatures tend to flail about a lot. But where Mabran undead ought to be destroyed, Dollurhan are mostly in need of help and assistance. Destroying a Dollurhan undead does not remove the root problem of their revenance, and thus they will reform in most cases without the need of any focus. Where Mabran undead are taken over by the Plane, Dollurhan undead are refusing to give themselves over to their Dollurh completely. In short, they are the Lost Souls. If you combine the two, you get a very dangerous creature that is essentially maddened. The creature shifts between despair and a desire to fit into a world it has left on the one hand, and a hunger to destroy it and harm those that are in it. Evil sense of purpose gives way to, and reconquers possession from utter disorientation. Such a creature would be nearly impossible to control, because nobody knows which planar influence is going to be in control come the next second. Specific undead may fall into either category. While Dollurh has most ghosts, who refuse to die because they are not quite ready to leave the world of the living, are confused and lost, Mabar has ghosts to. But these creatures are the really malicious ones, who seek to continue their misdeeds. These are, for instance, the Ghostly Hunters that can be found in parts of the Eldeen Reaches, still chasing midnight travellers and terrorising those who step outside their doors at night. There are also other planes that might be used. Savarath could help create bodies that refuse to stop fighting even after death. Xoriat could be responsible for madness-inducing undead; in my campaign, the Daelkyr are responsible for allips, though they did need Dollurhan energies. Irian obviously gives rise to deathless. I can't see any of the other Planes giving rise to undead creature, though: cold and fire undead would still need interactions to Mabar, I'd say.
Revvecor 06-25-07, 06:45 PM	Even though your ideas were contrary to my line of thinking, I am forced to admit that your idea of the planer effects on undead make more sense than mine and I may use a variation of your concept.;):clap:
Hellcow 06-26-07, 06:27 PM	In Faiths of Eberron pg26 the head of the Karrnathi Skeletons and Zombies had several levels of necromancer. To me this implies that Karrnoth undead retain character levels they had in life. Nope, they definitely do not. ECS: 3 HD, no advancement. One of the major advantages that the warforged have over Karrnathi undead (who otherwise possess better DR, darkvision, and various other handy bonuses) is that warforged CAN advance in level. Karrnathi undead are intelligent, but it's a very unnatural intelligence. Working with the skeleton of your old buddy should be a very creepy experience, because not only is it not him, but it's not a human consciousness. I don't have FoE on hand, so I can't try to analyze what was intended there. Personally, I'd call it a mistake that slipped past the editors. Ari, CAS, and Jennifer are all excellent authors, but none of them worked on the ECS, and anyone can make a mistake. However, the point I will make is that you can always have rare exceptions. If you WANT a Karrnathi skeleton who's a 9th-level fighter, make one. Perhaps he was raised from the body of a great hero or is otherwise an ideal vessel for the animating force. As a DM, you always have the right to break the rules to suit the story. However it is and always has been the intention that the Karrnathi undead do NOT have the memories or class levels of their former lives. If you have a Karrnathi skeleton who's also a necromancer, that doesn't mean he WAS a necromancer in life - it means that somehow, the spirit drawn into the corpse possessed necromantic knowledge, something highly unusual. If *I* was running it, I'd say that this is an excellent sign that this particular skeleton isn't a "Karrnathi" skeleton at all - but rather, the force animating it is loyal to Erandis d'Vol. (One of the persistent fears about the Karrnathi undead is that they aren't animated by "the spirit of Karrnath", but rather by a force with more sinister intentions.)
Mouseferatu 06-26-07, 06:42 PM	In Faiths of Eberron pg26 the head of the Karrnathi Skeletons and Zombies had several levels of necromancer. To me this implies that Karrnoth undead retain character levels they had in life. My intention with that character--well, I didn't have much of an intention, since it was basically a one-line description. ;) But that said, I didn't invision him as being a necromancer in life who retained his personality. I saw him as a Karrnathi undead who picked up levels after he was raised. This character should, in no way, be taken as evidence against Keith's notion that the Karrnathi undead lose all prior personality. Personally, I'd call it a mistake that slipped past the editors. Ari, CAS, and Jennifer are all excellent authors, but none of them worked on the ECS, and anyone can make a mistake. At this late date, I honestly don't remember if it was a mistake, or if I just decided to make that character one of the rare exceptions. (Advancement, like the "always" alignment entry, isn't considered 100% iron-clad.) I will say, though, that I'm not entirely sure I see the logic in saying Karrnathi undead can't advance. True, they're not human anymore, so they have to start back over from square one, and I can see them not advancing by Hit Dice. But they're just as intelligent as an average person; I don't really see why they couldn't learn new abilities. Keith? Thoughts and intentions?
Hellcow 06-26-07, 07:03 PM	At this late date, I honestly don't remember if it was a mistake, or if I just decided to make that character one of the rare exceptions. Certainly - as described above, I think there's always a place for rare exceptions. I'm all for that 9th-level skeleton fighter who takes people by surprise. I will say, though, that I'm not entirely sure I see the logic in saying Karrnathi undead can't advance. True, they're not human anymore, so they have to start back over from square one, and I can see them not advancing by Hit Dice. But they're just as intelligent as an average person; I don't really see why they couldn't learn new abilities. Keith? Thoughts and intentions? Because, in my mind, they have the intelligence score of an average person. But they are nothing like average people. I see the Karrnathi undead as almost like the Borg. They're not true individuals; they are shells animated by the essence of war. This is why you have to raise them from the corpses of "elite soldiers slain in battle". It's the same way that speak with dead doesn't actually contact the soul, but draws on the psychic imprints left on the corpse. They are animated by the martial memories, the aggression, the energy of the battlefield itself. But again, this is why they all possess the same skills. They aren't individuals. They aren't human. They are pure spirits of war. They can react in an intelligent manner to tactical situations, but in my opinion trying to talk to one about any other subject won't go far. A Karrnathi skeleton will never compose a poem. It can't comprehend the beauty of a sunset. It is a killer, and all it understands or wants to understand is war and death. Its skills are essentially pure instinct, and that's all they ever will be; it doesn't improve through experience because it doesn't really retain its experiences in the same way that humans do. It's not a robot; you can talk to it. But it has a laser focus, always looking at everything through the lens of war. Essentially, I see Karrnathi undead as being very disturbing - something even Karrns should find unsettling. Among other things, they truly only exist for battle. The warforged can transition to noncombat roles, but a Karrnathi skeleton isn't going to become a farmer. It yearns to spill the blood of its nation's enemies, but if too much time passes, it may be content simply to spill blood. Your fellow soldier may be willing to fight at your side, but he has a family, a favorite food, wants to write a romance novel, and so on. The skeleton has no interest save spilling the blood of the enemy. It can't even comprehend the idea of romance. It's intelligent... but it's not human intelligence. At least, that's how I play them. Their skill is essentially instinctual, and they don't improve because they don't rely on skill - they never even try to learn new skills. But I'm all for saying that there are a number of unusual undead with higher levels of skill or a wider range of personality. But IMO, they should never feel human. And there should always be that lurking fear... do you really understand its motivation? Are you sure it's not going to turn on you? Is it possible that this entire process has been the work of Erandis, and that all of the Karrnathi undead are just waiting for the command of the Queen of the Dead?
Mouseferatu 06-26-07, 07:07 PM	Now see, I'm cool with that. The notion that it's imprinted knowledge, instinct, and the like... That it's not just the loss of prior persona but the loss of any concept of individuality... I can get behind that. I like it. Unfortunately, I don't feel the ECS writeup succeeded in getting that across. :( As described there, there's no reason to think they couldn't develop in more individualistic ways. (Sure there's the "--" on the Advancement line, but it's not enough in and of itself.) This, BTW, is a perfect example to show people who insist that flavor is unimportant, and only mechanics matter. (Thankfully, there aren't many of those on the Eberron boards.) ;) Ah, well. I'll certainly try to cleave more closely to this approach in the future, and save the class levels for other types of undead.
Hellcow 06-26-07, 08:34 PM	Unfortunately, I don't feel the ECS writeup succeeded in getting that across. :( As described there, there's no reason to think they couldn't develop in more individualistic ways. (Sure there's the "--" on the Advancement line, but it's not enough in and of itself.) Yes, I certainly understand that. I know what *I'd* do and why, but I certainly don't blame you for reading it the other way. And as I said, I don't have any problem with a few unusual exceptions... all the more mysterious because they DO possess different skils. But I'd still leave most of the "advancement" undead to things like vampires, ghosts, etc. which still are essentially human in their psyche; I see the Karrnathi undead as very inhuman. Perhaps it's a subject for a future article... their nature and role in the military and the world after the war.
mhacdebhandia 06-26-07, 08:39 PM	Yes, please, Keith! :)
Revvecor 06-26-07, 11:11 PM	Thank you Hellcow and Mouseferatu for your thoughts and clarifications. (Just for clarification of were I was coming from; I have been running a campaign revolving around a death cult that worships "The Keeper" and was using the Karrnathi undead as a basis for for their standard soldiers and clerics.) I see the Karrnathi undead as very inhuman. That makes them perfect soldiers for terror tactics.:ghosted: Perhaps it's a subject for a future article... their nature and role in the military and the world after the war. I am looking foreword to it.:w00t: