Keith on Zilargo [Archive] - Wizards Community

Keith on Zilargo [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DBlizzard
08-31-07, 06:16 AM For those who may have missed it, Keith has posted a bit on his blog (http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/1657.html) about his vision of Zilargo.

Just for the random Eberron observation of the week, there was a thread on the Eberron message boards about a player who wanted to weaken the power of the Trust. For those of you who don't play Eberron, the gnomes of Eberron live in a nation called Zilargo; law enforcement is handled by the Trust, a secret police force whose members come from all walks of life. Essentially, the idea is that absolutely anyone could be a member of the Trust, whether simply a spy who passes intelligence along to the top, or an active operative. Their form of justice is swift and ruthless, often relying on poisoning and assassination - all kept as quiet as possible to keep from disturbing the public. People just disappear. At its core, it's a combination of the Venetian Council of Ten and the Precrime Division from the Philip K. Dick story "Minority Report" (with the notable difference that they tend to kill would-be criminals)... a secret police force that is so efficient and ruthless that crime essentially never occurs.

In creating the Trust, my goal was to look at the question of what people are willing to sacrifice in the name of security. The idea is that Zilargo IS the safest nation on Khorvaire. Not only from a perspective of mundane crime, but don't forget, this is a world filled with shapechangers, demons, psions who can take over your mind, and the like; because of the broad power of the Trust, these forces have a harder time acting in Zilargo than anywhere else in Eberron. And at the same time, the Trust aren't the rulers of the nation; they enforce the rules for the good of the nation. In a sense, it's both utopia and dystopia. Unlike 1984, they don't have rationing, the sense of hopelessness, the government telling them what to think. But as a Zil, you do have the fact that you could be watched at any time... and that if you do choose to commit a crime, you could be dead in an hour. The Trust doesn't ban books, enforce a specific philosophy or religion; in fact, Zilargo has a very cosmopolitan outlook on such things. It deals with crimes that threaten other gnomes, or the nation as a whole. Theft, murder, rape... follow that path and your next drink might be poisoned, even if you never get past the planning stages.

In any case, coming from our world, it's easy to look at the Trust as a terrifying force. They hold the power of life and death over their citizens. There is no oversight, no recourse. And as living beings, they surely aren't perfect; mistakes must be made, and that means that innocents can die. And in modern-day terms, they could essentially be watching you at any time, wiretapping (scrying) your conversations, reading your mail... surely SOMEONE at your local post office is an agent of the Trust.

But the point of Zilargo is that this is what they want. The Thomas Jefferson quote paraphrased in V for Vendetta (the movie) is that "When people fear their government, there is tyranny"; the point is that the Zil don't fear the Trust. On the contrary, they trust it. This isn't a case of illegal wiretapping or the government seizing power; it's a population choosing to give the government power because they want the security, and because they believe that the power won't be abused. It's really the central question of "Minority Report", and I'll just say that the story takes a different path than the movie; is it worth it to sacrifice personal freedoms for safety and security? Is it OK to eliminate people who haven't actually committed a crime if it means that no one ever will commit a crime?

The key point here is that Zilargo is a fantasy land. It's a world where the government has tremendous power and HASN'T overstepped its bounds - where it has the power of life and death but only does pursue actual criminals. They know everything you do, but they don't use it to further a political agenda. The Trust is made up of gnomes from all walks of Zilargo; it's not the product of the political struggles we see in out world. So let's face it, it's extremely unrealistic; it's based on the idea that absolute power hasn't corrupted. It's still a terrifying thing; punishments are harsh and applied without benefit of jury, typically before a crime has ever been committed. There is no privacy. But it's what the people want, and that's the other part where it's a fantasy. These aren't humans. It's not based on any nation in our history. It couldn't be; it's the product of a world with access to scrying magics and divinations, and a world threatened by demons and other hidden dangers. It's meant to challenge our ideas of freedom and individual rights.

Essentially, the person on the original thread seemed to want to free Zilargo from the tyrannical rule of the Trust. My point is simply that the it's not a tyranny, because the people aren't afraid, and they don't WANT to be freed. They have chosen their path, and they're happy with the result; they live in the safest nation on Khorvaire. It's supposed to be alien and disturbing. I wouldn't want to live there. But that's why it's in Eberron - to explore a society we may never see in our own world.
Roxlimn
08-31-07, 06:37 AM The most disturbing thing about the Trust is that it's not entirely fantastic and that the agendas generally accepted by gnomes aren't entirely alien.

If it were truly alien, we wouldn't have such a visceral and negative reaction to it.
Splendide
08-31-07, 08:32 AM And its such a great reminder that gnomes aren't human.
OctaviusIII
08-31-07, 03:44 PM Indeed....

I was talking once with a guy that worked in the American Embassy in Hungary just before the overthrow of the Communist regime. He said one of the most disturbing things was the secret police. They'd make sure you knew they were there by moving your vacuum cleaner into your bathtub or something. Harmless, true, but the fact that you were in the house when they did it and didn't notice is rather creepy. Given what was just said about the Trust, I wouldn't think that would be something they'd do just for a lark, but I do imagine that when the Trust needed to remind someone they were there, they'd do something like that.

I suddenly like Zilargo a whole lot more. Reminds me of Britain gone mad.
Roxlimn
08-31-07, 03:47 PM Or gone pragmatic, depending on your point of view.
OctaviusIII
09-01-07, 02:40 AM Or gone pragmatic, depending on your point of view.

Spoken like a true gnome.
Roxlimn
09-01-07, 07:53 AM :D Now you all know why I don't mind looking foolish and why I discuss the stuff I like into absurdity.

It's all part of the plan...
Cuaglar
09-04-07, 09:54 AM I've always been intrigued by Zilargo and the Trust. Once I even played a 'Trustee' gnome bard who was on the hunt for his own son, who had murdered a Korranberg University professor. Never got to find him, though, before the campaign fell apart, and the DM was hinting that he was getting involved with the Dragon Below and everything.
And, actually, I read the thread that Mr. Baker was talking about, earlier today, here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911695

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DBlizzard 08-31-07, 06:16 AM	For those who may have missed it, Keith has posted a bit on his blog (http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/1657.html) about his vision of Zilargo. Just for the random Eberron observation of the week, there was a thread on the Eberron message boards about a player who wanted to weaken the power of the Trust. For those of you who don't play Eberron, the gnomes of Eberron live in a nation called Zilargo; law enforcement is handled by the Trust, a secret police force whose members come from all walks of life. Essentially, the idea is that absolutely anyone could be a member of the Trust, whether simply a spy who passes intelligence along to the top, or an active operative. Their form of justice is swift and ruthless, often relying on poisoning and assassination - all kept as quiet as possible to keep from disturbing the public. People just disappear. At its core, it's a combination of the Venetian Council of Ten and the Precrime Division from the Philip K. Dick story "Minority Report" (with the notable difference that they tend to kill would-be criminals)... a secret police force that is so efficient and ruthless that crime essentially never occurs. In creating the Trust, my goal was to look at the question of what people are willing to sacrifice in the name of security. The idea is that Zilargo IS the safest nation on Khorvaire. Not only from a perspective of mundane crime, but don't forget, this is a world filled with shapechangers, demons, psions who can take over your mind, and the like; because of the broad power of the Trust, these forces have a harder time acting in Zilargo than anywhere else in Eberron. And at the same time, the Trust aren't the rulers of the nation; they enforce the rules for the good of the nation. In a sense, it's both utopia and dystopia. Unlike 1984, they don't have rationing, the sense of hopelessness, the government telling them what to think. But as a Zil, you do have the fact that you could be watched at any time... and that if you do choose to commit a crime, you could be dead in an hour. The Trust doesn't ban books, enforce a specific philosophy or religion; in fact, Zilargo has a very cosmopolitan outlook on such things. It deals with crimes that threaten other gnomes, or the nation as a whole. Theft, murder, rape... follow that path and your next drink might be poisoned, even if you never get past the planning stages. In any case, coming from our world, it's easy to look at the Trust as a terrifying force. They hold the power of life and death over their citizens. There is no oversight, no recourse. And as living beings, they surely aren't perfect; mistakes must be made, and that means that innocents can die. And in modern-day terms, they could essentially be watching you at any time, wiretapping (scrying) your conversations, reading your mail... surely SOMEONE at your local post office is an agent of the Trust. But the point of Zilargo is that this is what they want. The Thomas Jefferson quote paraphrased in V for Vendetta (the movie) is that "When people fear their government, there is tyranny"; the point is that the Zil don't fear the Trust. On the contrary, they trust it. This isn't a case of illegal wiretapping or the government seizing power; it's a population choosing to give the government power because they want the security, and because they believe that the power won't be abused. It's really the central question of "Minority Report", and I'll just say that the story takes a different path than the movie; is it worth it to sacrifice personal freedoms for safety and security? Is it OK to eliminate people who haven't actually committed a crime if it means that no one ever will commit a crime? The key point here is that Zilargo is a fantasy land. It's a world where the government has tremendous power and HASN'T overstepped its bounds - where it has the power of life and death but only does pursue actual criminals. They know everything you do, but they don't use it to further a political agenda. The Trust is made up of gnomes from all walks of Zilargo; it's not the product of the political struggles we see in out world. So let's face it, it's extremely unrealistic; it's based on the idea that absolute power hasn't corrupted. It's still a terrifying thing; punishments are harsh and applied without benefit of jury, typically before a crime has ever been committed. There is no privacy. But it's what the people want, and that's the other part where it's a fantasy. These aren't humans. It's not based on any nation in our history. It couldn't be; it's the product of a world with access to scrying magics and divinations, and a world threatened by demons and other hidden dangers. It's meant to challenge our ideas of freedom and individual rights. Essentially, the person on the original thread seemed to want to free Zilargo from the tyrannical rule of the Trust. My point is simply that the it's not a tyranny, because the people aren't afraid, and they don't WANT to be freed. They have chosen their path, and they're happy with the result; they live in the safest nation on Khorvaire. It's supposed to be alien and disturbing. I wouldn't want to live there. But that's why it's in Eberron - to explore a society we may never see in our own world.
Roxlimn 08-31-07, 06:37 AM	The most disturbing thing about the Trust is that it's not entirely fantastic and that the agendas generally accepted by gnomes aren't entirely alien. If it were truly alien, we wouldn't have such a visceral and negative reaction to it.
Splendide 08-31-07, 08:32 AM	And its such a great reminder that gnomes aren't human.
OctaviusIII 08-31-07, 03:44 PM	Indeed.... I was talking once with a guy that worked in the American Embassy in Hungary just before the overthrow of the Communist regime. He said one of the most disturbing things was the secret police. They'd make sure you knew they were there by moving your vacuum cleaner into your bathtub or something. Harmless, true, but the fact that you were in the house when they did it and didn't notice is rather creepy. Given what was just said about the Trust, I wouldn't think that would be something they'd do just for a lark, but I do imagine that when the Trust needed to remind someone they were there, they'd do something like that. I suddenly like Zilargo a whole lot more. Reminds me of Britain gone mad.
Roxlimn 08-31-07, 03:47 PM	Or gone pragmatic, depending on your point of view.
OctaviusIII 09-01-07, 02:40 AM	Or gone pragmatic, depending on your point of view. Spoken like a true gnome.
Roxlimn 09-01-07, 07:53 AM	:D Now you all know why I don't mind looking foolish and why I discuss the stuff I like into absurdity. It's all part of the plan...
Cuaglar 09-04-07, 09:54 AM	I've always been intrigued by Zilargo and the Trust. Once I even played a 'Trustee' gnome bard who was on the hunt for his own son, who had murdered a Korranberg University professor. Never got to find him, though, before the campaign fell apart, and the DM was hinting that he was getting involved with the Dragon Below and everything. And, actually, I read the thread that Mr. Baker was talking about, earlier today, here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911695