Levels of Pnj in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Levels of Pnj in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bad_phil
03-20-07, 05:08 PM Hi,

I'm a Senior Dm in Eberron and I got all rule books of the campain. I spotted that some Pnjs are strong in levels (Kais III, Vol, Lord of blades, the little girl of the silver flame or some other less know pnjs in secrets of Xen'drik or Sarlona) and others are very unpowerful or mid levels(The queen of Aundair, Merrix d'Cannith, King Boranel of Breland or others).

Me players asked me to play a high level campain (16), more like a tryout. They are powerful, and I wondered what would stop one of them to go on a rampage. Of course there is one million ways! I also know that if I don't like the levels of Pnjs (like Boranel) I could get it higher if I'd like to. That is a solution.

I also thought if new pnjs in the rule books are getting stronger or if it's just me. Some of them are still low-levels, but I think more of them are coming out.
Korhal IV
03-20-07, 05:14 PM Pnj? What the hell is a Pnj?

Anyway, yes, your characters could probably draw their swords in a tavern and not stop hacking until most of the city lay dead.

Unfortunately for them, that's not going to do much against the major powers of the realm. The Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, the Chamber, the Dreaming Dark, and various factions of Xen'drik can and often do overwhelm measly 16th level groups when they run into them. Instead of staging your campaign in low-powered Khorvaire, move it into one of the higher-level playgrounds - Xen'drik is for 8-14th, with some stretch, Sarlona works well from 14th-18th, and Argonnessen is insta-kill unless you're epic. Aerenal? It varies, but on their home turf, the Undying Court wields more power than any other organization in existence.
Bakho
03-20-07, 05:21 PM I think that Pnj is short for Non Player Character in his tongue (NPC).
goblin_pride
03-20-07, 05:26 PM Persona non-jouet? Sorry, my french is pathetic and I can barely remember how to spell in french. I never did play D&D in french, but I would guess that Pnj is NPC.

Always look at the location in the upper right corner of the post. Sometimes that helps a bit to understand when you hit a linguistic oddity in the text. It gives you a solid point of reference that if you're paying attention will help you to divine what the poster is getting at.

That's it, I'm moving to Sharn and opening an inquisitive's office.
bad_phil
03-20-07, 05:59 PM Yes i'm sorry! Pnj = Npc (Personnage non-joueur!)

Thanks!
DarthMidget
03-20-07, 07:21 PM Salut Phil! Yes, I do think there has been some more high-level stuff coming out for Eberron lately. Of course, I think that is a natural evolution of product. Places like Xen'drik and Sarlona would, given what has been written about them, be far more inclined to powerful 'PNJs' than central Khorvaire.
AvonRekaes
03-20-07, 07:55 PM Aslo, the Lord of Blades is always supposed to be higher level than the PCs. In the same way that Doctor Doom is always a challenge for the Fantastic Four to beat, the Lord of Blades should level up with the party.

Now, since he starts at level 12, that's not to say he should always be 12 levels ahead of the party. Even a party of 16th level characters will have no chance to defeat a CR 28 opponent unless the DM set it up story-wise.

One suggestion I have is to advance the timeline a bit, and possibly have your players agree on some big quest that they've already completed. The introduction of several 16th level PC-classed characters should have some sort of impact on the campaign world. This would also justify them being so high a level.

However, this also justifies you increasing the levels of key bad-guys. Want to use Kaius? Then say while your players were busy reaching level 16 by doing whatever heroic quest they were doing, Kaius was leveling up by secretly doing whatever dastardly deeds you want him to be doing. In the same way, Vol and the Lord of Blades could also being out doing whatever, gaining levels.

This also gives you a bit of leway with the setting. If you advance the world by 2 years, so it's 1000 YK, you can advance all sorts of political plots. Did Boranel finally die (of "old age", wink wink) and the Parliment faction get underway? Did Aundaire start another war with Karnnath on Aurala's path to a unified Galifar? Has the Mournland spread?

With some work, Eberron can easily be a high-level setting, even on Khorvaire. You just gotta work with the tools you're given.
Shadowkire
03-21-07, 02:47 AM Hi,

I'm a Senior Dm in Eberron and I got all rule books of the campain. I spotted that some Pnjs are strong in levels (Kais III, Vol, Lord of blades, the little girl of the silver flame or some other less know pnjs in secrets of Xen'drik or Sarlona) and others are very unpowerful or mid levels(The queen of Aundair, Merrix d'Cannith, King Boranel of Breland or others).

Me players asked me to play a high level campain (16), more like a tryout. They are powerful, and I wondered what would stop one of them to go on a rampage. Of course there is one million ways! I also know that if I don't like the levels of Pnjs (like Boranel) I could get it higher if I'd like to. That is a solution.

I also thought if new pnjs in the rule books are getting stronger or if it's just me. Some of them are still low-levels, but I think more of them are coming out.

If you want to keep your players from getting out of hand you can make sure the high level NPCs stay a few levels ahead of the group, and then you can also say that the strength of the players has not gone unnoticed by all the organizations that go around spying on one another, which is everyone in Eberron. And because those groups fear the power of the players they have all established teams of elite combatants that have recieved additional special training, making groups of mid to high level NPCs to fight.
Kensan_Oni
03-21-07, 04:38 AM Part of me thinks that there are several issues with having High level PC's that will keep them from getting into too much trouble.

1) They are well known. One of the ideas behind Eberron was that the PC's are the ones that people go to when there is trouble. No one else is around to bail out people. If the PC's decide to go on a rampage to take out X goodie or baddie, people will learn about it, and they can learn out it quickly. Between spy networks, instant communication, and well placed scrys, NPC's will be ready for players, and as the players are well known, everyone will be watching them.

2) The baddies really never have an upper level. I mean even if they decide to go after some important NPC, the NPC's are still the least of the worries out there. Between possessing demons and epic level threats that still roam the countryside, there is plenty to do besides altering the political landscape.

3) There is no reward for killing the little guys. Let us face it, pure motivation on the XP level will keep your 16th level players from going around and killing little girls and wimpy warforged. Once they realize that they are getting no experince for attempting to deal with the NPC's, they'll start turning to the higher epic adventures that are out there. Let us face it, it's a lot more entertaining to go after Vol and her cult on her home turf then it would be to go and attempt yet again to kill the vamp king. Of course, if they want to go after Kaus anyway, you can make them regret doing so ten ways to Sunday...

Mainly, while there is some worry, I wouldn't be overly concerned with it, especially if it's just going to be a short term game, anyway.
Shady314
03-21-07, 05:02 AM Hi,

I'm a Senior Dm in Eberron and I got all rule books of the campain. I spotted that some Pnjs are strong in levels (Kais III, Vol, Lord of blades, the little girl of the silver flame or some other less know pnjs in secrets of Xen'drik or Sarlona) and others are very unpowerful or mid levels(The queen of Aundair, Merrix d'Cannith, King Boranel of Breland or others).

Me players asked me to play a high level campain (16), more like a tryout. They are powerful, and I wondered what would stop one of them to go on a rampage. Of course there is one million ways! I also know that if I don't like the levels of Pnjs (like Boranel) I could get it higher if I'd like to. That is a solution.

I also thought if new pnjs in the rule books are getting stronger or if it's just me. Some of them are still low-levels, but I think more of them are coming out.

The key to letting weaker NPCs remain a threat to the bad ass PCs is to let NPCs break wealth by level guidelines, have the advantage of numbers (50 archers are going to roll a few 20s :)), use intelligent tactics like cover and flanking etc. and to ambush them.

When the military or police need to deal with a serious threat like an out of control high level PC party they aren't going to lead a frontal assault. They'll poison them, harrass them in skirmishes, seperate them, make liberal use of dispel magic, lay traps etc.

Yes NPCs have gotten more powerful in the books. Power creep always exists that's why we must remain vigilant! But it's so far been for good reason. Sarlona and Argonessen and Xendrik are meant to be "epic" (I don't mean necessarily by high level) threats and challenges for adventurers. We always knew a continent of Dragons, a continent run by evil outsiders, and a continent of a long lost amazing civilization had higher level threats.

Khorvaire remains a lower level since that's the usual starting area. But it remains a serious threat to even high leveled PCs.
loseth
03-21-07, 06:34 AM The key to letting weaker NPCs remain a threat to the bad ass PCs is to let NPCs break wealth by level guidelines, have the advantage of numbers (50 archers are going to roll a few 20s :)), use intelligent tactics like cover and flanking etc. and to ambush them.

When the military or police need to deal with a serious threat like an out of control high level PC party they aren't going to lead a frontal assault. They'll poison them, harrass them in skirmishes, seperate them, make liberal use of dispel magic, lay traps etc.

This is, in my experience, overwhelmingly the best way to handle NPCs. Break the idea that NPC level = NPC power/threat level and the fun will go way up for most types of players.
Lancer2010
03-21-07, 02:14 PM Also, let's face it, if the PCs take down Boranel, they're going to have the Brelish military, Dark Lanterns, and torch and pitchfork weilding mobs after em. Same goes with other big leaders.

You kill some high ranking NPC, count that nation out of where you can go, and then cross off their allies too.
dxyn
03-21-07, 02:54 PM In any game that I would run, a choice by the PCs to disrupt the entire social, economic, and political foundation of the world simply because they can would not last long.

They can be stopped any number of ways. One is by taking their meta-game knowledge out of the equation by simply telling them that the levels of any and all NPCS in the book are not necessrily reflective of the actually in your game. You don't even have to do any work, unless they decide to rampage.

Another choice is to have the truly powerful groups (Lords of Dust, Chamber, etc.) decide to oppose their overthrow of the legitmate rulers of the nations. When they ask why Rashasha hit teams are targeting them, you can respond that their rampage across Khoravire is in danger of disrupting centuries of planning and now a number of much more worthy targets want them eliminated.

My preferred choice would be to create an equal or more powerful party of NPC adventurers or even a number of solo adventurer types who feel that the PCs have stepped over the line and set out to oppose them. That way, they don't know what is going to come next. Adventuring NPCs could come out of the woodwork. Not only that, I'm sure that plenty of people here on the boards would create characters (or already have them) that would be motivated to stifle the ambitions of your PCs, that you could easily drop into your game.

Oh, so you want to assassinate the King of Karrnath, eh? Well, on your way to the palace, you are interecepted by a band of adventurers who are here to thwart your plans. After all, if your PCs can find out what the bad guys anywhere are doing, why can't someone else find out what you are planning?
RogueElement
03-21-07, 04:29 PM Pnj? What the hell is a Pnj?

PnJ = Peanutbutter-N-Jelly

It's Peanut Butter Jelly Time!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=areyUfCNFxY

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bad_phil 03-20-07, 05:08 PM	Hi, I'm a Senior Dm in Eberron and I got all rule books of the campain. I spotted that some Pnjs are strong in levels (Kais III, Vol, Lord of blades, the little girl of the silver flame or some other less know pnjs in secrets of Xen'drik or Sarlona) and others are very unpowerful or mid levels(The queen of Aundair, Merrix d'Cannith, King Boranel of Breland or others). Me players asked me to play a high level campain (16), more like a tryout. They are powerful, and I wondered what would stop one of them to go on a rampage. Of course there is one million ways! I also know that if I don't like the levels of Pnjs (like Boranel) I could get it higher if I'd like to. That is a solution. I also thought if new pnjs in the rule books are getting stronger or if it's just me. Some of them are still low-levels, but I think more of them are coming out.
Korhal IV 03-20-07, 05:14 PM	Pnj? What the hell is a Pnj? Anyway, yes, your characters could probably draw their swords in a tavern and not stop hacking until most of the city lay dead. Unfortunately for them, that's not going to do much against the major powers of the realm. The Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, the Chamber, the Dreaming Dark, and various factions of Xen'drik can and often do overwhelm measly 16th level groups when they run into them. Instead of staging your campaign in low-powered Khorvaire, move it into one of the higher-level playgrounds - Xen'drik is for 8-14th, with some stretch, Sarlona works well from 14th-18th, and Argonnessen is insta-kill unless you're epic. Aerenal? It varies, but on their home turf, the Undying Court wields more power than any other organization in existence.
Bakho 03-20-07, 05:21 PM	I think that Pnj is short for Non Player Character in his tongue (NPC).
goblin_pride 03-20-07, 05:26 PM	Persona non-jouet? Sorry, my french is pathetic and I can barely remember how to spell in french. I never did play D&D in french, but I would guess that Pnj is NPC. Always look at the location in the upper right corner of the post. Sometimes that helps a bit to understand when you hit a linguistic oddity in the text. It gives you a solid point of reference that if you're paying attention will help you to divine what the poster is getting at. That's it, I'm moving to Sharn and opening an inquisitive's office.
bad_phil 03-20-07, 05:59 PM	Yes i'm sorry! Pnj = Npc (Personnage non-joueur!) Thanks!
DarthMidget 03-20-07, 07:21 PM	Salut Phil! Yes, I do think there has been some more high-level stuff coming out for Eberron lately. Of course, I think that is a natural evolution of product. Places like Xen'drik and Sarlona would, given what has been written about them, be far more inclined to powerful 'PNJs' than central Khorvaire.
AvonRekaes 03-20-07, 07:55 PM	Aslo, the Lord of Blades is always supposed to be higher level than the PCs. In the same way that Doctor Doom is always a challenge for the Fantastic Four to beat, the Lord of Blades should level up with the party. Now, since he starts at level 12, that's not to say he should always be 12 levels ahead of the party. Even a party of 16th level characters will have no chance to defeat a CR 28 opponent unless the DM set it up story-wise. One suggestion I have is to advance the timeline a bit, and possibly have your players agree on some big quest that they've already completed. The introduction of several 16th level PC-classed characters should have some sort of impact on the campaign world. This would also justify them being so high a level. However, this also justifies you increasing the levels of key bad-guys. Want to use Kaius? Then say while your players were busy reaching level 16 by doing whatever heroic quest they were doing, Kaius was leveling up by secretly doing whatever dastardly deeds you want him to be doing. In the same way, Vol and the Lord of Blades could also being out doing whatever, gaining levels. This also gives you a bit of leway with the setting. If you advance the world by 2 years, so it's 1000 YK, you can advance all sorts of political plots. Did Boranel finally die (of "old age", wink wink) and the Parliment faction get underway? Did Aundaire start another war with Karnnath on Aurala's path to a unified Galifar? Has the Mournland spread? With some work, Eberron can easily be a high-level setting, even on Khorvaire. You just gotta work with the tools you're given.
Shadowkire 03-21-07, 02:47 AM	Hi, I'm a Senior Dm in Eberron and I got all rule books of the campain. I spotted that some Pnjs are strong in levels (Kais III, Vol, Lord of blades, the little girl of the silver flame or some other less know pnjs in secrets of Xen'drik or Sarlona) and others are very unpowerful or mid levels(The queen of Aundair, Merrix d'Cannith, King Boranel of Breland or others). Me players asked me to play a high level campain (16), more like a tryout. They are powerful, and I wondered what would stop one of them to go on a rampage. Of course there is one million ways! I also know that if I don't like the levels of Pnjs (like Boranel) I could get it higher if I'd like to. That is a solution. I also thought if new pnjs in the rule books are getting stronger or if it's just me. Some of them are still low-levels, but I think more of them are coming out. If you want to keep your players from getting out of hand you can make sure the high level NPCs stay a few levels ahead of the group, and then you can also say that the strength of the players has not gone unnoticed by all the organizations that go around spying on one another, which is everyone in Eberron. And because those groups fear the power of the players they have all established teams of elite combatants that have recieved additional special training, making groups of mid to high level NPCs to fight.
Kensan_Oni 03-21-07, 04:38 AM	Part of me thinks that there are several issues with having High level PC's that will keep them from getting into too much trouble. 1) They are well known. One of the ideas behind Eberron was that the PC's are the ones that people go to when there is trouble. No one else is around to bail out people. If the PC's decide to go on a rampage to take out X goodie or baddie, people will learn about it, and they can learn out it quickly. Between spy networks, instant communication, and well placed scrys, NPC's will be ready for players, and as the players are well known, everyone will be watching them. 2) The baddies really never have an upper level. I mean even if they decide to go after some important NPC, the NPC's are still the least of the worries out there. Between possessing demons and epic level threats that still roam the countryside, there is plenty to do besides altering the political landscape. 3) There is no reward for killing the little guys. Let us face it, pure motivation on the XP level will keep your 16th level players from going around and killing little girls and wimpy warforged. Once they realize that they are getting no experince for attempting to deal with the NPC's, they'll start turning to the higher epic adventures that are out there. Let us face it, it's a lot more entertaining to go after Vol and her cult on her home turf then it would be to go and attempt yet again to kill the vamp king. Of course, if they want to go after Kaus anyway, you can make them regret doing so ten ways to Sunday... Mainly, while there is some worry, I wouldn't be overly concerned with it, especially if it's just going to be a short term game, anyway.
Shady314 03-21-07, 05:02 AM	Hi, I'm a Senior Dm in Eberron and I got all rule books of the campain. I spotted that some Pnjs are strong in levels (Kais III, Vol, Lord of blades, the little girl of the silver flame or some other less know pnjs in secrets of Xen'drik or Sarlona) and others are very unpowerful or mid levels(The queen of Aundair, Merrix d'Cannith, King Boranel of Breland or others). Me players asked me to play a high level campain (16), more like a tryout. They are powerful, and I wondered what would stop one of them to go on a rampage. Of course there is one million ways! I also know that if I don't like the levels of Pnjs (like Boranel) I could get it higher if I'd like to. That is a solution. I also thought if new pnjs in the rule books are getting stronger or if it's just me. Some of them are still low-levels, but I think more of them are coming out. The key to letting weaker NPCs remain a threat to the bad ass PCs is to let NPCs break wealth by level guidelines, have the advantage of numbers (50 archers are going to roll a few 20s :)), use intelligent tactics like cover and flanking etc. and to ambush them. When the military or police need to deal with a serious threat like an out of control high level PC party they aren't going to lead a frontal assault. They'll poison them, harrass them in skirmishes, seperate them, make liberal use of dispel magic, lay traps etc. Yes NPCs have gotten more powerful in the books. Power creep always exists that's why we must remain vigilant! But it's so far been for good reason. Sarlona and Argonessen and Xendrik are meant to be "epic" (I don't mean necessarily by high level) threats and challenges for adventurers. We always knew a continent of Dragons, a continent run by evil outsiders, and a continent of a long lost amazing civilization had higher level threats. Khorvaire remains a lower level since that's the usual starting area. But it remains a serious threat to even high leveled PCs.
loseth 03-21-07, 06:34 AM	The key to letting weaker NPCs remain a threat to the bad ass PCs is to let NPCs break wealth by level guidelines, have the advantage of numbers (50 archers are going to roll a few 20s :)), use intelligent tactics like cover and flanking etc. and to ambush them. When the military or police need to deal with a serious threat like an out of control high level PC party they aren't going to lead a frontal assault. They'll poison them, harrass them in skirmishes, seperate them, make liberal use of dispel magic, lay traps etc. This is, in my experience, overwhelmingly the best way to handle NPCs. Break the idea that NPC level = NPC power/threat level and the fun will go way up for most types of players.
Lancer2010 03-21-07, 02:14 PM	Also, let's face it, if the PCs take down Boranel, they're going to have the Brelish military, Dark Lanterns, and torch and pitchfork weilding mobs after em. Same goes with other big leaders. You kill some high ranking NPC, count that nation out of where you can go, and then cross off their allies too.
dxyn 03-21-07, 02:54 PM	In any game that I would run, a choice by the PCs to disrupt the entire social, economic, and political foundation of the world simply because they can would not last long. They can be stopped any number of ways. One is by taking their meta-game knowledge out of the equation by simply telling them that the levels of any and all NPCS in the book are not necessrily reflective of the actually in your game. You don't even have to do any work, unless they decide to rampage. Another choice is to have the truly powerful groups (Lords of Dust, Chamber, etc.) decide to oppose their overthrow of the legitmate rulers of the nations. When they ask why Rashasha hit teams are targeting them, you can respond that their rampage across Khoravire is in danger of disrupting centuries of planning and now a number of much more worthy targets want them eliminated. My preferred choice would be to create an equal or more powerful party of NPC adventurers or even a number of solo adventurer types who feel that the PCs have stepped over the line and set out to oppose them. That way, they don't know what is going to come next. Adventuring NPCs could come out of the woodwork. Not only that, I'm sure that plenty of people here on the boards would create characters (or already have them) that would be motivated to stifle the ambitions of your PCs, that you could easily drop into your game. Oh, so you want to assassinate the King of Karrnath, eh? Well, on your way to the palace, you are interecepted by a band of adventurers who are here to thwart your plans. After all, if your PCs can find out what the bad guys anywhere are doing, why can't someone else find out what you are planning?
RogueElement 03-21-07, 04:29 PM	Pnj? What the hell is a Pnj? PnJ = Peanutbutter-N-Jelly It's Peanut Butter Jelly Time! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=areyUfCNFxY