Magic Brawlers [Please Help Develop] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic Brawlers [Please Help Develop] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Concerto
07-25-07, 03:50 AM I was walking home from my local Icecream Parlor ((I love me some Icecream)) when I came upon an interesting idea.

Soccerers come upon their innanate powers, usually in some sort of awakening, though some just have it from birth and it grows with them.

What if it wasn't completely manifested as a spellcaster though? I was thinking of the following

If someone was born with innanate magic within them, but grew up fighting ((Such as living in the slums or some other place)) and learned to use their magical abillities to augment their brawling skills?

Where as monks have Ki, this new class would use magic to get the upper hand.

I don't have any ideas for the class itself, but I thought it was kind of a cool idea, so.... any suggestions? Should I try to develop it into a fully fledged class?
Rechan
07-25-07, 03:59 PM Monks don't just get Ki, all of their powers are derivative of "Magical energy directed inwards". In fact, I would say that monks really are the inverse of clerics - all of the divine, spiritual energy is directed Into the body, rather than directed outwards in the form of spells.

So an Arcane version of a monk would do the same thing - the magic would just do different things. Rather than give them long life and protect them from disease and allow them to heal, it would protect them from energy and provide a damage buffer and allow them to Hit Stuff Really Hard.

One thing you might want to look at is This product (http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2967&src=ENWorldReview) over on Enworld. It IS dedicated to Monks, but it's got a Chaos monk in there - who has various magical effects similar to what you're trying to do.

Naturally this Magical Brawler (who needs a name like the Gorgon's Fist or something) would at least need:

1) Something for defense. To suck up damage or handle AC one. Possibly a way to suck up energy damage.

2) Naturally something offensive. Check out how the Lurk or Soulknife functions, in how they can modify their attacks. Perhaps a technique like this, which allows the class to put modifiers on their fists - energy damage, knockback, sickening, slow, effects like that.

Another place you could look is the Tome of Battle - some of the effects they have in there could be useful. There's one power tree that essentially lets you pick up and throw your opponent. This sounds right up there with "Cool Brawler tricks".
Kinger
07-25-07, 07:07 PM I think there's potential in this idea. Off the top of my head...

Keep the BaB, HD, Saves, skill points, unarmed attacks and progression, bonus feats, increased speed, evasion, and slow fall. Maybe change up the weapons. Maybe.

Change the primary attribute to Intelligence or Charisma (which are typically associated with more Arcane casters than Divine).

Still Mind (+2 vs Enchantments) is still a rather Arcaney ability.

Ki Strike can be renamed to something else. Arcane Strike is a bit too easy. Eldricht Strike implies something Warlocky now. I'm not sure what else, though. Keep the first one as bypassing Magic DR.

Instead of Purity of Body, grant Energy Resistance 5 to Cold, Fire, or Electricity (choose one).

Wholeness of Body? Instead, how about... Slippery Mind? The Rogue ability that lets you reroll saves. Might be too powerful with the all around high save progression. And it comes around at a comparitively low level.

Ki Strike (lawful) could be replaced with an energy damage on each unarmed strike, of the same type you have Energy Resistance for. 1d6, perhaps.

Diamond Body? Hmm. Up the Energy Resistance to 10, or gain 5 against a different element.

Abundant Step? Dimension Door's Arcane. Keep it.

Diamond Soul is Spell Resistance. Keep it, too.

Quivering Palm? Both Arcane and Divine spellcasters get various Save-or-Die spells, so I'd keep it unless someone can think of something cooler. And what's cooler than killing someone with a shockwave from your hand?

Ki Strike (Adamantine) could instead replace your energy damage with an energy burst (Flaming Burst, so 1d6 normally and more on a crit), or let you choose another energy type (if you chose a second energy resistance). Don't let it put both Flaming and Shocking on one attack, but give the choice for each attack.

Timeless Body? Eternal Youth is more of a Wizard thing, in my eyes. I'd say it stays.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon? Hmm... Tongues is an arcane spell, but I dunno... Perhaps a permanent Arcane Sight?

Empty Body? Etherealness. I'd hang on to it.

Perfect Self? Again, Outsiders are not really more Arcane or Divine. Probably keep that too.
Rechan
07-25-07, 07:31 PM Part of me wants to say: What sets these guys APART from monks? I mean, are they like, magical thugs? Boxers with magic?

If so, then they're not going to be as Disciplined as monks. That internal magic ought to be a little more... Wild?

Definitely aren't going to be LIMITED to the Lawful alignment.
Concerto
07-26-07, 03:20 AM Part of me wants to say: What sets these guys APART from monks? I mean, are they like, magical thugs? Boxers with magic?

If so, then they're not going to be as Disciplined as monks. That internal magic ought to be a little more... Wild?

Definitely aren't going to be LIMITED to the Lawful alignment.

Yea, not lawful at all. I was thinking of having things much more different than Monks. I mean, monks get techniques through study, Magic Brawlers get it through ingenuity, magic, and a little bit of luck.

I want them to be using improvised weapons, imbueing themselves or others with arcane energy, either to bless or wrack the body.
Need_A_Life
07-26-07, 07:58 AM Barbarian.
Fighter.
Warblade.
Crusader.
Sword Sage.
Sorcerer.
Warlocks.
Warmages.
Monks.

Really, it's all there. One needs but to look.
OctaviusIII
07-27-07, 05:57 PM I think a Warlock melee variant is a good place to start in terms of flavor, because they use the most wild magic in the most controlled way. Looking through the abilities of the most basic spell, Prestigitation, also might give us some insight into what can be done with basic magic.

Right now I think this class's main ability should be channelling force: bullrush with a punch; AC based on something akin to mage armor; etc. Secondarily should be energy, perhaps gaining to ability to channel a single sort of energy into resistance and an energy-specific ability. Tertiarily, his role should be support tank, like a monk. (Oh, and given his lack of training, he only gets simple weapons.)
Rechan
07-28-07, 12:50 AM A melee warlock is a good place to start. At least look at Invocation powers and see how to use those as selectable magic effects, rather than making the magical powers the same for every Magical Brawler. That way you have a few Brawler builds you can make, even if they all have the same abilities. Then have general abilities that are universal (some form of magical AC, and the 'bullrush with a punch' like Octavious suggested).

Though they definitely should get Unarmed damage progression similar to a monk.
OctaviusIII
07-28-07, 05:07 PM Hmm... another good place to look might be the adept of Shadowrun, another RPG. They've got exactly what you're thinking of under the "class" of Adept. The powers they get can be called either rogue boosts (senses, like hearing, seeing, tasting, etc.) or combat boosts (dodge missiles, resist pain, etc.). So what does that mean for us?

The mage-melee should be able to: take the hits (DR, AC, temp. HP), deal the hits (ranged, close, and FTW/awesome), and recover (fast healing). As for flavor, she should look cool doing it: throwing enemies around, breaking weapons, shields and armor, and manipulate the elements in the room.
JulesCARV
07-28-07, 05:43 PM Hmm... another good place to look might be the adept of Shadowrun, another RPG. They've got exactly what you're thinking of under the "class" of Adept. The powers they get can be called either rogue boosts (senses, like hearing, seeing, tasting, etc.) or combat boosts (dodge missiles, resist pain, etc.). So what does that mean for us?

The mage-melee should be able to: take the hits (DR, AC, temp. HP), deal the hits (ranged, close, and FTW/awesome), and recover (fast healing). As for flavor, she should look cool doing it: throwing enemies around, breaking weapons, shields and armor, and manipulate the elements in the room.

It seems to me that in D&D terms, you're describing a psychic warrior (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPsychicWarrior.html). (Unless, that is, I'm missing something important)
OctaviusIII
07-28-07, 06:18 PM It seems to me that in D&D terms, you're describing a psychic warrior (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPsychicWarrior.html). (Unless, that is, I'm missing something important)

Not quite. The psychic warrior uses psionic powers to boost himself temporarily. The powers of the Shadowrun adept, as well as the melee-mage, are permanent. There might be options whether to use them or not, but they're not like spells or psionic powers.
JulesCARV
07-28-07, 06:28 PM Ah. My bad.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Concerto 07-25-07, 03:50 AM	I was walking home from my local Icecream Parlor ((I love me some Icecream)) when I came upon an interesting idea. Soccerers come upon their innanate powers, usually in some sort of awakening, though some just have it from birth and it grows with them. What if it wasn't completely manifested as a spellcaster though? I was thinking of the following If someone was born with innanate magic within them, but grew up fighting ((Such as living in the slums or some other place)) and learned to use their magical abillities to augment their brawling skills? Where as monks have Ki, this new class would use magic to get the upper hand. I don't have any ideas for the class itself, but I thought it was kind of a cool idea, so.... any suggestions? Should I try to develop it into a fully fledged class?
Rechan 07-25-07, 03:59 PM	Monks don't just get Ki, all of their powers are derivative of "Magical energy directed inwards". In fact, I would say that monks really are the inverse of clerics - all of the divine, spiritual energy is directed Into the body, rather than directed outwards in the form of spells. So an Arcane version of a monk would do the same thing - the magic would just do different things. Rather than give them long life and protect them from disease and allow them to heal, it would protect them from energy and provide a damage buffer and allow them to Hit Stuff Really Hard. One thing you might want to look at is This product (http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2967&src=ENWorldReview) over on Enworld. It IS dedicated to Monks, but it's got a Chaos monk in there - who has various magical effects similar to what you're trying to do. Naturally this Magical Brawler (who needs a name like the Gorgon's Fist or something) would at least need: 1) Something for defense. To suck up damage or handle AC one. Possibly a way to suck up energy damage. 2) Naturally something offensive. Check out how the Lurk or Soulknife functions, in how they can modify their attacks. Perhaps a technique like this, which allows the class to put modifiers on their fists - energy damage, knockback, sickening, slow, effects like that. Another place you could look is the Tome of Battle - some of the effects they have in there could be useful. There's one power tree that essentially lets you pick up and throw your opponent. This sounds right up there with "Cool Brawler tricks".
Kinger 07-25-07, 07:07 PM	I think there's potential in this idea. Off the top of my head... Keep the BaB, HD, Saves, skill points, unarmed attacks and progression, bonus feats, increased speed, evasion, and slow fall. Maybe change up the weapons. Maybe. Change the primary attribute to Intelligence or Charisma (which are typically associated with more Arcane casters than Divine). Still Mind (+2 vs Enchantments) is still a rather Arcaney ability. Ki Strike can be renamed to something else. Arcane Strike is a bit too easy. Eldricht Strike implies something Warlocky now. I'm not sure what else, though. Keep the first one as bypassing Magic DR. Instead of Purity of Body, grant Energy Resistance 5 to Cold, Fire, or Electricity (choose one). Wholeness of Body? Instead, how about... Slippery Mind? The Rogue ability that lets you reroll saves. Might be too powerful with the all around high save progression. And it comes around at a comparitively low level. Ki Strike (lawful) could be replaced with an energy damage on each unarmed strike, of the same type you have Energy Resistance for. 1d6, perhaps. Diamond Body? Hmm. Up the Energy Resistance to 10, or gain 5 against a different element. Abundant Step? Dimension Door's Arcane. Keep it. Diamond Soul is Spell Resistance. Keep it, too. Quivering Palm? Both Arcane and Divine spellcasters get various Save-or-Die spells, so I'd keep it unless someone can think of something cooler. And what's cooler than killing someone with a shockwave from your hand? Ki Strike (Adamantine) could instead replace your energy damage with an energy burst (Flaming Burst, so 1d6 normally and more on a crit), or let you choose another energy type (if you chose a second energy resistance). Don't let it put both Flaming and Shocking on one attack, but give the choice for each attack. Timeless Body? Eternal Youth is more of a Wizard thing, in my eyes. I'd say it stays. Tongue of the Sun and Moon? Hmm... Tongues is an arcane spell, but I dunno... Perhaps a permanent Arcane Sight? Empty Body? Etherealness. I'd hang on to it. Perfect Self? Again, Outsiders are not really more Arcane or Divine. Probably keep that too.
Rechan 07-25-07, 07:31 PM	Part of me wants to say: What sets these guys APART from monks? I mean, are they like, magical thugs? Boxers with magic? If so, then they're not going to be as Disciplined as monks. That internal magic ought to be a little more... Wild? Definitely aren't going to be LIMITED to the Lawful alignment.
Concerto 07-26-07, 03:20 AM	Part of me wants to say: What sets these guys APART from monks? I mean, are they like, magical thugs? Boxers with magic? If so, then they're not going to be as Disciplined as monks. That internal magic ought to be a little more... Wild? Definitely aren't going to be LIMITED to the Lawful alignment. Yea, not lawful at all. I was thinking of having things much more different than Monks. I mean, monks get techniques through study, Magic Brawlers get it through ingenuity, magic, and a little bit of luck. I want them to be using improvised weapons, imbueing themselves or others with arcane energy, either to bless or wrack the body.
Need_A_Life 07-26-07, 07:58 AM	Barbarian. Fighter. Warblade. Crusader. Sword Sage. Sorcerer. Warlocks. Warmages. Monks. Really, it's all there. One needs but to look.
OctaviusIII 07-27-07, 05:57 PM	I think a Warlock melee variant is a good place to start in terms of flavor, because they use the most wild magic in the most controlled way. Looking through the abilities of the most basic spell, Prestigitation, also might give us some insight into what can be done with basic magic. Right now I think this class's main ability should be channelling force: bullrush with a punch; AC based on something akin to mage armor; etc. Secondarily should be energy, perhaps gaining to ability to channel a single sort of energy into resistance and an energy-specific ability. Tertiarily, his role should be support tank, like a monk. (Oh, and given his lack of training, he only gets simple weapons.)
Rechan 07-28-07, 12:50 AM	A melee warlock is a good place to start. At least look at Invocation powers and see how to use those as selectable magic effects, rather than making the magical powers the same for every Magical Brawler. That way you have a few Brawler builds you can make, even if they all have the same abilities. Then have general abilities that are universal (some form of magical AC, and the 'bullrush with a punch' like Octavious suggested). Though they definitely should get Unarmed damage progression similar to a monk.
OctaviusIII 07-28-07, 05:07 PM	Hmm... another good place to look might be the adept of Shadowrun, another RPG. They've got exactly what you're thinking of under the "class" of Adept. The powers they get can be called either rogue boosts (senses, like hearing, seeing, tasting, etc.) or combat boosts (dodge missiles, resist pain, etc.). So what does that mean for us? The mage-melee should be able to: take the hits (DR, AC, temp. HP), deal the hits (ranged, close, and FTW/awesome), and recover (fast healing). As for flavor, she should look cool doing it: throwing enemies around, breaking weapons, shields and armor, and manipulate the elements in the room.
JulesCARV 07-28-07, 05:43 PM	Hmm... another good place to look might be the adept of Shadowrun, another RPG. They've got exactly what you're thinking of under the "class" of Adept. The powers they get can be called either rogue boosts (senses, like hearing, seeing, tasting, etc.) or combat boosts (dodge missiles, resist pain, etc.). So what does that mean for us? The mage-melee should be able to: take the hits (DR, AC, temp. HP), deal the hits (ranged, close, and FTW/awesome), and recover (fast healing). As for flavor, she should look cool doing it: throwing enemies around, breaking weapons, shields and armor, and manipulate the elements in the room. It seems to me that in D&D terms, you're describing a psychic warrior (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPsychicWarrior.html). (Unless, that is, I'm missing something important)
OctaviusIII 07-28-07, 06:18 PM	It seems to me that in D&D terms, you're describing a psychic warrior (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPsychicWarrior.html). (Unless, that is, I'm missing something important) Not quite. The psychic warrior uses psionic powers to boost himself temporarily. The powers of the Shadowrun adept, as well as the melee-mage, are permanent. There might be options whether to use them or not, but they're not like spells or psionic powers.
JulesCARV 07-28-07, 06:28 PM	Ah. My bad.