Making a Warforged Paladin Effective [Archive] - Wizards Community

Making a Warforged Paladin Effective [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
matuty74
07-23-07, 01:14 AM I'm designing one, but with the whole minus two in Charisma and Wisdom, I find it hard to get the stats balanced out. Also, are there any alternatives to get a Warforged Paladin casting divine magic and any other suggestions in general?
decembersfrost
07-23-07, 01:18 AM Also, are there any alternatives to get a Warforged Paladin casting divine magic.... ?

How do you mean? Paladins, warforged or not, cast divine magic as soon as they're able to.
Rerecros
07-23-07, 01:23 AM The substitution levels in RoE help a little.
Ravenstein
07-23-07, 05:55 PM I wouldn't worry too much about a low CHA or WIS as a warforged. For one, Paladin spellcasting isn't all kinds of spiffy. Its nice, but if yer lacking the casting, you would be too badly hindered. Secondly, a +1 CHA should suffice. There are diminishing returns on a high CHA modifier at later levels.

Don't be so worried about that clerical side of the paladin when you are a warforged. Go for extra smiting and such abilities. A warforged paladin is really a holy fighter with some minor casting.
Rechan
07-23-07, 06:26 PM Statwise, the high Cha is much better, as you add that to various effects like saves and such.

Another little foible with WF pallies is that WF are immune to disease all ready, so one of the Paladin effects are wasted. But, hey, WF pallies can be fun.
Edymnion
07-23-07, 06:59 PM Heh, as someone that has played a Warforged Paladin for a while, I do have some advice.

Yes, it is very difficult to make an effective WF Paladin, especially when you're on point buy. To be perfectly honest, the DMs I've played under with Crucible, my background was good enough to convince them to basically let me pick my own stats, and I made sure not to abuse that priviledge by keeping my point total after racial mods the same as the point total for the campaign (basically, ditching the racial stat mods altogether). That is one avenue I would suggest taking up with your DM, although you will stand a much better chance at getting him to let you bend the rules for you if you can demonstrate that you want to bend them for the sake of the character concept, and not just for power reasons. A good DM will be willing to work with you if you demonstrate that you are willing to work with them Do your background work first, and give it to the DM. Let them read it, and then *ASK* if you can do something like this, while making it clear that you have no problem if he says no. Many times, they will say yes because you've demonstrated a willingness to put effort into your character beyond the mechanical aspects.

If they say no, accept it and go into damage control mode. You will not be able to make a traditional MAD Paladin, so don't even try. Just get your Wisdom up to 11, and your Charisma up to 12, and then up your Strength/Dexterity (if going for ranged smite) and Constitution. You're going to have to be a more battle oriented Paladin, not the super charismatic smitey paladin. Use level up stat increases and magical items (like a cloak of charisma and a parapit of wisdom, however you spell it) to boost your Wisdom/Charisma later on.

Basically, at low levels your charisma/wisdom won't really be *THAT* important, as most things that use it either won't be that useful at low levels, or won't be available at all (like spellcasting), which means you'll have time to get magical items later on to make them work.
ArcTan
07-23-07, 07:52 PM A Paladin with mediocre Wis and Cha is basically a slightly underoptimized Fighter (trading in a typical set of Fighter feats for things like smiting and fear immunity). Which is fine, really, if you're not powergaming.
Rechan
07-23-07, 08:05 PM If a WF Pally heals himself with his lay on hands, does it only account for half the total of healing, or is that only applicable to spells of the healing school?
Nightshade
07-23-07, 10:02 PM If a WF Pally heals himself with his lay on hands, does it only account for half the total of healing, or is that only applicable to spells of the healing school?

It does not count for half. A Paladin heals for full. The 1/2 healing only applies to the healing subschool and a Paladin's healing is a supernatural ability.
Edymnion
07-23-07, 10:14 PM A Paladin with mediocre Wis and Cha is basically a slightly underoptimized Fighter (trading in a typical set of Fighter feats for things like smiting and fear immunity). Which is fine, really, if you're not powergaming.Which is exactly what a high wis/cha Paladin is at low levels, a Fighter without the bonus feats.

Lvl 1 is just Aura of Good, Detect Evil, and Smite Evil 1x/day.
And even with the Cha bonus to Smite Evil, in the long run its virtually meaningless as you also get your Paladin class level as a bonus to the damage, which will quickly outstrip your charisma modifier even if it was at Sorcerer levels.

The only real hit he takes at low levels is the reduced number of hitpoints he can restore via Lay on Hands, and his lower saves, neither of which are critically important at low levels. As long as you have a 12 in Charisma, you'll be fine for low levels until you can get a boosting item later on.

Yes, a WF Paladin isn't going to be as powerful as a high Charisma character at level 1. But anyone that invests in a massive Charisma bonus that early on is going to suffer in the combat related abilities, so its always a trade off. Unless you just happen to roll nothing under a 16, a Paladin is always going to have to make the decision on if they want a more martial or more mystical bent, since you just don't typically have the stats to do both. The WF just sort of make that decision for you by ruling out the easy mystical path.
If a WF Pally heals himself with his lay on hands, does it only account for half the total of healing, or is that only applicable to spells of the healing school?Lay on Hands is not a healing subschool spell, and thus is not affected by the normal 1/2 healing rule. Which actually makes the RoE substitution level for them completely worthless, as they can heal themselves and other WF just fine with it, and their non-warforged party members with the default level, where the substitution level gives nothing extra and takes away the ability to heal fleshies.
Weo
07-24-07, 08:18 AM On a different note, I have a WF pally in one of my games who, instead of taking a mount, would like the ability to transform the loewr half of his body into a equine form, as if he were wearing a tauric girdle.

I haven't responded yet, as I'm not quite sure how to handle this. My first thought was to check out the higher-lvl pally mounts, give them a gold piece value based on what it would take to train them or buy them on the market place, and then put the tauric belt ability at that lvl.
Save-vs-DM
07-24-07, 09:34 AM For this, I really recommend the Holy Warrior Paladin Variant in Complete Champion (pg. 49). Trade in all your spellcasting for bonus feats. You loose access to scrolls, wands, and spellcasting, but now no longer have to worry about Wisdom much at all. This effectively cuts out one of your stat-sinks, and nets you a total of 4 bonus feats over 20 levels. Not a bad trade-off at all.

Cheers,
Save vs DM
matuty74
07-24-07, 12:57 PM Thanks alot for all the great advice!:D
Edymnion
07-24-07, 06:39 PM On a different note, I have a WF pally in one of my games who, instead of taking a mount, would like the ability to transform the loewr half of his body into a equine form, as if he were wearing a tauric girdle.

I haven't responded yet, as I'm not quite sure how to handle this. My first thought was to check out the higher-lvl pally mounts, give them a gold piece value based on what it would take to train them or buy them on the market place, and then put the tauric belt ability at that lvl.I'd say no, as you're giving them artifact level abilities as a normal class ability.
ShadowChemosh
07-25-07, 01:06 AM ....
Lay on Hands is not a healing subschool spell, and thus is not affected by the normal 1/2 healing rule. Which actually makes the RoE substitution level for them completely worthless, as they can heal themselves and other WF just fine with it, and their non-warforged party members with the default level, where the substitution level gives nothing extra and takes away the ability to heal fleshies.
Under Warforged in the ECS its says healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage. A paladins Lay on hands(su) is a supernatural ability so the warforged gets only half healing.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#layonHands

So a warforged that has Lay on Hands used on himself by his own ability or another will only get half healing. So the special Racial Substitution Level listed in RoE is a useful ability.
ArcTan
07-25-07, 04:06 AM Hey, he's right:

However, spells from the healing subschool or supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage have only half their normal effect on a Warforged.

Whoa, what's that I hear? Was it the sound of Edy making a random comment disparaging RoE and getting burned? I think it was.

Burn!
Edymnion
07-25-07, 12:31 PM Whoa, what's that I hear? Was it the sound of Edy making a random comment disparaging RoE and getting burned? I think it was.Bah, even a broken clock is right twice a day. With all the stuff they threw out there, pure probability says at least some of it has to actually work. :P
Euangelion
07-25-07, 01:19 PM I think that one needs to read carefully the section on warforged paladins on page 39 of the ECS...how does the phrase go? "The ability functions as either curative or repair magic, as appropriate to the subject." Come on, people, this is Eberron 101 material! Good thing you're not being graded, ArcTan and ShadowChemosh!!

By the way, the benefit of the 2nd level warforged paladin racial substitution level is that it makes CHA pretty much a dump stat, since the CON bonus applies to both saving throws (albeit just one kind) and Lay on Hands (albeit with more limitations than a standard warforged.) But the opportunity to really focus more on CON and STR probably makes up for it in the end, since the higher CON means better Fort saves anyway. So really, only Ref. saves suffer, and fleshies get half-healing from LOH. Not too shabby for gaining a dump stat.
Edymnion
07-25-07, 07:08 PM I think that one needs to read carefully the section on warforged paladins on page 39 of the ECS...how does the phrase go? "The ability functions as either curative or repair magic, as appropriate to the subject." Come on, people, this is Eberron 101 material! Good thing you're not being graded, ArcTan and ShadowChemosh!!I knew I remembered Paladin Lay on Hands working normally for WF! :D
I should have gone and looked it up, so I could have been the one to whip that bad boy out. :)
ShadowChemosh
07-26-07, 12:38 PM I think that one needs to read carefully the section on warforged paladins on page 39 of the ECS...how does the phrase go? "The ability functions as either curative or repair magic, as appropriate to the subject." Come on, people, this is Eberron 101 material! Good thing you're not being graded, ArcTan and ShadowChemosh!!
I was correcting the generic idea that Paladins Lay on hands could heal full hit points. This is NOT the case as per the rules. Your exception to the rule has nothing to do with a Human Paladin doing Lay on Hands on a Warforged. In that case as I said it would be half-healing. The post I originally replied to was making the Generic Statement that some how Lay on hands got past the half-healing of warforgeds. Which happens only if done by a Warforged Paladin that does this.

I forgot to add the except when specifically done by a warforged paladin. My bad....
Euangelion
07-26-07, 01:46 PM I forgot to add the except when specifically done by a warforged paladin. My bad....
Hmmm. What you actually said was this:
So a warforged that has Lay on Hands used on himself by his own ability or another will only get half healing.
Still, you do raise a good point, that a non-warforged paladin will need to use two Lay on Hands points to heal one point of damage to a warforged. But the whole thread is about a warforged paladin, and Edy's post that you responded to was itself in response to a question by Rechan specifically about a "WF pally." I just wanted to set the record straight and clear up a surprising amount of confusion amonst a few that I wouldn't expect it from! ;)
OctaviusIII
07-26-07, 06:53 PM I just wanted to set the record straight and clear up a surprising amount of confusion amonst a few that I wouldn't expect it from! ;)

I suppose that's what happens when everybody's posting at work without access to the books (or is just too lazy to get them out like me :))
Euangelion
07-26-07, 06:57 PM To be completely honest, I knew where the info was in the ECS, but I used Amazon's "Search Inside" feature to get the exact quote. Yes, I was at work at the time... and yes, if I got caught, I'd have some interesting explaining to do.:incog:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
matuty74 07-23-07, 01:14 AM	I'm designing one, but with the whole minus two in Charisma and Wisdom, I find it hard to get the stats balanced out. Also, are there any alternatives to get a Warforged Paladin casting divine magic and any other suggestions in general?
decembersfrost 07-23-07, 01:18 AM	Also, are there any alternatives to get a Warforged Paladin casting divine magic.... ? How do you mean? Paladins, warforged or not, cast divine magic as soon as they're able to.
Rerecros 07-23-07, 01:23 AM	The substitution levels in RoE help a little.
Ravenstein 07-23-07, 05:55 PM	I wouldn't worry too much about a low CHA or WIS as a warforged. For one, Paladin spellcasting isn't all kinds of spiffy. Its nice, but if yer lacking the casting, you would be too badly hindered. Secondly, a +1 CHA should suffice. There are diminishing returns on a high CHA modifier at later levels. Don't be so worried about that clerical side of the paladin when you are a warforged. Go for extra smiting and such abilities. A warforged paladin is really a holy fighter with some minor casting.
Rechan 07-23-07, 06:26 PM	Statwise, the high Cha is much better, as you add that to various effects like saves and such. Another little foible with WF pallies is that WF are immune to disease all ready, so one of the Paladin effects are wasted. But, hey, WF pallies can be fun.
Edymnion 07-23-07, 06:59 PM	Heh, as someone that has played a Warforged Paladin for a while, I do have some advice. Yes, it is very difficult to make an effective WF Paladin, especially when you're on point buy. To be perfectly honest, the DMs I've played under with Crucible, my background was good enough to convince them to basically let me pick my own stats, and I made sure not to abuse that priviledge by keeping my point total after racial mods the same as the point total for the campaign (basically, ditching the racial stat mods altogether). That is one avenue I would suggest taking up with your DM, although you will stand a much better chance at getting him to let you bend the rules for you if you can demonstrate that you want to bend them for the sake of the character concept, and not just for power reasons. A good DM will be willing to work with you if you demonstrate that you are willing to work with them Do your background work first, and give it to the DM. Let them read it, and then ASK if you can do something like this, while making it clear that you have no problem if he says no. Many times, they will say yes because you've demonstrated a willingness to put effort into your character beyond the mechanical aspects. If they say no, accept it and go into damage control mode. You will not be able to make a traditional MAD Paladin, so don't even try. Just get your Wisdom up to 11, and your Charisma up to 12, and then up your Strength/Dexterity (if going for ranged smite) and Constitution. You're going to have to be a more battle oriented Paladin, not the super charismatic smitey paladin. Use level up stat increases and magical items (like a cloak of charisma and a parapit of wisdom, however you spell it) to boost your Wisdom/Charisma later on. Basically, at low levels your charisma/wisdom won't really be THAT important, as most things that use it either won't be that useful at low levels, or won't be available at all (like spellcasting), which means you'll have time to get magical items later on to make them work.
ArcTan 07-23-07, 07:52 PM	A Paladin with mediocre Wis and Cha is basically a slightly underoptimized Fighter (trading in a typical set of Fighter feats for things like smiting and fear immunity). Which is fine, really, if you're not powergaming.
Rechan 07-23-07, 08:05 PM	If a WF Pally heals himself with his lay on hands, does it only account for half the total of healing, or is that only applicable to spells of the healing school?
Nightshade 07-23-07, 10:02 PM	If a WF Pally heals himself with his lay on hands, does it only account for half the total of healing, or is that only applicable to spells of the healing school? It does not count for half. A Paladin heals for full. The 1/2 healing only applies to the healing subschool and a Paladin's healing is a supernatural ability.
Edymnion 07-23-07, 10:14 PM	A Paladin with mediocre Wis and Cha is basically a slightly underoptimized Fighter (trading in a typical set of Fighter feats for things like smiting and fear immunity). Which is fine, really, if you're not powergaming.Which is exactly what a high wis/cha Paladin is at low levels, a Fighter without the bonus feats. Lvl 1 is just Aura of Good, Detect Evil, and Smite Evil 1x/day. And even with the Cha bonus to Smite Evil, in the long run its virtually meaningless as you also get your Paladin class level as a bonus to the damage, which will quickly outstrip your charisma modifier even if it was at Sorcerer levels. The only real hit he takes at low levels is the reduced number of hitpoints he can restore via Lay on Hands, and his lower saves, neither of which are critically important at low levels. As long as you have a 12 in Charisma, you'll be fine for low levels until you can get a boosting item later on. Yes, a WF Paladin isn't going to be as powerful as a high Charisma character at level 1. But anyone that invests in a massive Charisma bonus that early on is going to suffer in the combat related abilities, so its always a trade off. Unless you just happen to roll nothing under a 16, a Paladin is always going to have to make the decision on if they want a more martial or more mystical bent, since you just don't typically have the stats to do both. The WF just sort of make that decision for you by ruling out the easy mystical path. If a WF Pally heals himself with his lay on hands, does it only account for half the total of healing, or is that only applicable to spells of the healing school?Lay on Hands is not a healing subschool spell, and thus is not affected by the normal 1/2 healing rule. Which actually makes the RoE substitution level for them completely worthless, as they can heal themselves and other WF just fine with it, and their non-warforged party members with the default level, where the substitution level gives nothing extra and takes away the ability to heal fleshies.
Weo 07-24-07, 08:18 AM	On a different note, I have a WF pally in one of my games who, instead of taking a mount, would like the ability to transform the loewr half of his body into a equine form, as if he were wearing a tauric girdle. I haven't responded yet, as I'm not quite sure how to handle this. My first thought was to check out the higher-lvl pally mounts, give them a gold piece value based on what it would take to train them or buy them on the market place, and then put the tauric belt ability at that lvl.
Save-vs-DM 07-24-07, 09:34 AM	For this, I really recommend the Holy Warrior Paladin Variant in Complete Champion (pg. 49). Trade in all your spellcasting for bonus feats. You loose access to scrolls, wands, and spellcasting, but now no longer have to worry about Wisdom much at all. This effectively cuts out one of your stat-sinks, and nets you a total of 4 bonus feats over 20 levels. Not a bad trade-off at all. Cheers, Save vs DM
matuty74 07-24-07, 12:57 PM	Thanks alot for all the great advice!:D
Edymnion 07-24-07, 06:39 PM	On a different note, I have a WF pally in one of my games who, instead of taking a mount, would like the ability to transform the loewr half of his body into a equine form, as if he were wearing a tauric girdle. I haven't responded yet, as I'm not quite sure how to handle this. My first thought was to check out the higher-lvl pally mounts, give them a gold piece value based on what it would take to train them or buy them on the market place, and then put the tauric belt ability at that lvl.I'd say no, as you're giving them artifact level abilities as a normal class ability.
ShadowChemosh 07-25-07, 01:06 AM	.... Lay on Hands is not a healing subschool spell, and thus is not affected by the normal 1/2 healing rule. Which actually makes the RoE substitution level for them completely worthless, as they can heal themselves and other WF just fine with it, and their non-warforged party members with the default level, where the substitution level gives nothing extra and takes away the ability to heal fleshies. Under Warforged in the ECS its says healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage. A paladins Lay on hands(su) is a supernatural ability so the warforged gets only half healing. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#layonHands So a warforged that has Lay on Hands used on himself by his own ability or another will only get half healing. So the special Racial Substitution Level listed in RoE is a useful ability.
ArcTan 07-25-07, 04:06 AM	Hey, he's right: However, spells from the healing subschool or supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage have only half their normal effect on a Warforged. Whoa, what's that I hear? Was it the sound of Edy making a random comment disparaging RoE and getting burned? I think it was. Burn!
Edymnion 07-25-07, 12:31 PM	Whoa, what's that I hear? Was it the sound of Edy making a random comment disparaging RoE and getting burned? I think it was.Bah, even a broken clock is right twice a day. With all the stuff they threw out there, pure probability says at least some of it has to actually work. :P
Euangelion 07-25-07, 01:19 PM	I think that one needs to read carefully the section on warforged paladins on page 39 of the ECS...how does the phrase go? "The ability functions as either curative or repair magic, as appropriate to the subject." Come on, people, this is Eberron 101 material! Good thing you're not being graded, ArcTan and ShadowChemosh!! By the way, the benefit of the 2nd level warforged paladin racial substitution level is that it makes CHA pretty much a dump stat, since the CON bonus applies to both saving throws (albeit just one kind) and Lay on Hands (albeit with more limitations than a standard warforged.) But the opportunity to really focus more on CON and STR probably makes up for it in the end, since the higher CON means better Fort saves anyway. So really, only Ref. saves suffer, and fleshies get half-healing from LOH. Not too shabby for gaining a dump stat.
Edymnion 07-25-07, 07:08 PM	I think that one needs to read carefully the section on warforged paladins on page 39 of the ECS...how does the phrase go? "The ability functions as either curative or repair magic, as appropriate to the subject." Come on, people, this is Eberron 101 material! Good thing you're not being graded, ArcTan and ShadowChemosh!!I knew I remembered Paladin Lay on Hands working normally for WF! :D I should have gone and looked it up, so I could have been the one to whip that bad boy out. :)
ShadowChemosh 07-26-07, 12:38 PM	I think that one needs to read carefully the section on warforged paladins on page 39 of the ECS...how does the phrase go? "The ability functions as either curative or repair magic, as appropriate to the subject." Come on, people, this is Eberron 101 material! Good thing you're not being graded, ArcTan and ShadowChemosh!! I was correcting the generic idea that Paladins Lay on hands could heal full hit points. This is NOT the case as per the rules. Your exception to the rule has nothing to do with a Human Paladin doing Lay on Hands on a Warforged. In that case as I said it would be half-healing. The post I originally replied to was making the Generic Statement that some how Lay on hands got past the half-healing of warforgeds. Which happens only if done by a Warforged Paladin that does this. I forgot to add the except when specifically done by a warforged paladin. My bad....
Euangelion 07-26-07, 01:46 PM	I forgot to add the except when specifically done by a warforged paladin. My bad.... Hmmm. What you actually said was this: So a warforged that has Lay on Hands used on himself by his own ability or another will only get half healing. Still, you do raise a good point, that a non-warforged paladin will need to use two Lay on Hands points to heal one point of damage to a warforged. But the whole thread is about a warforged paladin, and Edy's post that you responded to was itself in response to a question by Rechan specifically about a "WF pally." I just wanted to set the record straight and clear up a surprising amount of confusion amonst a few that I wouldn't expect it from! ;)
OctaviusIII 07-26-07, 06:53 PM	I just wanted to set the record straight and clear up a surprising amount of confusion amonst a few that I wouldn't expect it from! ;) I suppose that's what happens when everybody's posting at work without access to the books (or is just too lazy to get them out like me :))
Euangelion 07-26-07, 06:57 PM	To be completely honest, I knew where the info was in the ECS, but I used Amazon's "Search Inside" feature to get the exact quote. Yes, I was at work at the time... and yes, if I got caught, I'd have some interesting explaining to do.:incog: