Making a Warforged Titan? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Making a Warforged Titan? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GhostStepper
02-21-07, 11:24 PM Sure you cant make them in eberron since they most likely were created using the Creation Forges, but what if your not using eberron and want plain old crafting rules for them? Are there any creation rules for warforged titans out there?
Cambian00
02-21-07, 11:33 PM no rule that I know of....except for the standard rules for making golems...
of course a titan is a lot bigger than a standard golem so I would probably up the DCs a bit
Cifer
02-22-07, 08:38 AM Sure you cant make them in eberron since they most likely were created using the Creation Forges
There's a difference between "can't" and "shouldn't" - especially since Thronehold only applies to Khorvaire, not to Xen'drik.
UnderworldLord
02-22-07, 10:40 AM And since you can always be a criminal and operate one anyway. Like oh say, if the Lord of Blades had one.
GhostStepper
02-22-07, 02:47 PM Im not really concerned with the legality or practicallity of created them in eberron, just if there are creation rules in one of the books that im missing.

Besides, even though they have the "warforged" designation they arent even living constructs! What exactly is it about them that puts them in the same category as regular living warforged and thus subject to the rulings of the Thronehold treaty? Wouldnt they be just as viable as a Slaughterstone behemoth or Iron Golem?
Tzarevitch
02-22-07, 03:28 PM Im not really concerned with the legality or practicallity of created them in eberron, just if there are creation rules in one of the books that im missing.

Besides, even though they have the "warforged" designation they arent even living constructs! What exactly is it about them that puts them in the same category as regular living warforged and thus subject to the rulings of the Thronehold treaty? Wouldnt they be just as viable as a Slaughterstone behemoth or Iron Golem?

There are no rules on creating them and I doubt there will ever be any. If you want something close look up the Maug race in MMII or FF (I can't remember which). They are the only intelligent and free-willed constructs that I am aware of that have creation rules. Note however that a titan has many more HD and is bigger than a maug, so price would have to be modified accordingly.

Tzarevitch
UnderworldLord
02-22-07, 04:03 PM They are the proto-warforged, if you will. Constructs that are just intelligent enough to be able to alter their battle plans. Not much, but its like having a trained dog... a really really big trained dog.

As far as other intelligent constructs go, I thought thee was another one somewhere.
Cifer
02-22-07, 04:45 PM Not much, but its like having a trained dog... a really really big trained dog.
A really big trained dog with a mace and an axe and the tendency to crush people...

What exactly is it about them that puts them in the same category as regular living warforged and thus subject to the rulings of the Thronehold treaty? Wouldnt they be just as viable as a Slaughterstone behemoth or Iron Golem?
They most probably come out of a creation forge since they are based on the same technology as WF - and those were to be dismantled.
Additionally, I'm not entirely sure that the people who signed Thronehold would want anyone running around with those things during relative peace-time, intelligent or not.
Kinger
02-22-07, 06:19 PM A really big, really vicious dog, that also happens to be smarter than Lassy. At the Titan's Int level, it can understand a language and may even be able to speak one back. You'd use standard rules of influencing intelligent creatures if you wanted them to do anything (ie: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, that sort of thing, rather than "Handle Construct" or whatever).

As a result, since they aren't tied directly to their creator in the same way a Nimblewright is, it's possible they don't have creation rules simply to discourage players to get them. It saves the DM some hassle ("Why doesn't the titan do what I say?") and it doesn't apply to the more likely possessor of Titans (ie: the villains) since the DM controls the villains and can give them whatever he or she damn well pleases.

That being said, the more likely reason for not providing them is that, so far, Warforged Titans are pretty much Eberron Exclusive (like Daelkyr, The Silver Flame, etc), by which I mean they haven't been assimilated into "standard" D&D like Drow, Pelor, Yuan-Ti, and so on. As a result, there aren't really rules out there for how Warforged Titans fit into Faerun, or Greyhawk, or wherever. All they've got is Eberron, and in Eberron, you need the Mystical Plot Widget known as a Creation Forge to make one.

If your players have control of a Creation Forge, they've moved far enough beyond the likely scope/intention/whathaveyou of the setting that you're already on your own. :)
Cifer
02-22-07, 07:47 PM If your players have control of a Creation Forge, they've moved far enough beyond the likely scope/intention/whathaveyou of the setting that you're already on your own.
I'm not that sure about this one - after all, the LoBster is a midlevel threat, and guess what may be seen as his loot...

You'd use standard rules of influencing intelligent creatures if you wanted them to do anything (ie: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, that sort of thing, rather than "Handle Construct" or whatever).
I wouldn't say that. While they are of course a bit more intelligent than real golems, it is said this intelligence merely means they can somewhat adapt to varying situations on a battlefield when given orders. Thus, diplomacy and intimidate will be relatively worthless and bluff would work only when disguising oneself as someone who is authorized to give them orders.
UnderworldLord
02-22-07, 08:12 PM Plus I don't see you doing much intimidating on one... especially with increased HD and size you can give them.
GhostStepper
02-23-07, 01:12 AM especially with increased HD and size you can give them.

That is true...by HD 25 they are gargantuan. Too bad i cant make one.
Edymnion
02-23-07, 12:49 PM Im not really concerned with the legality or practicallity of created them in eberron, just if there are creation rules in one of the books that im missing.No, as a fundamental building block of what the Warforged race is in the setting, you simply can't build one, and that extends to all the various kinds of WF. Even given that, they are built uisng Eldritch Machines, which in laymen's terms = "plot device". There are no prices for WF, no guidelines for how to make them, or anything else. And since making rules for this would go directly against the spirit of the setting, it is highly unlikely that they ever would.

Given that, you could always look at the Nimblewright as another sentient construct and use it for the base.
Kinger
02-25-07, 06:24 PM I'm not that sure about this one - after all, the LoBster is a midlevel threat, and guess what may be seen as his loot...

I disagree. The Lord of Blades is a higher-level threat (as in Higher Than the PCs), since it's been said many times that he's an example of a villain that is supposed to grow with the PCs. If your PCs adventure around for several years and reach level 15, the LoBster shouldn't still be the level 12 villain he is at the start of the campaign. Going with the comparison between the LoB and Doctor Doom, it'd be like Doctor Doom just resting on his laurels after his first little scheme goes well, rather than continuing to plan further diabolical enterprises.

And even if we assume that NPC levels are static and that the LoB won't ever improve, are you saying you'd willingly give your PCs control (not just possession) of a Creation Forge, which is effectively an Artifact/Eldricht Machine that functions however you, the DM, wants it to? I'd disagree with that. It's the NPCs, typically the villains, that have the secret laboratories with doomsday devices, and sit waiting for their plans to be foiled, not the PCs generally. A Creation Forge is in the same class as a Deathstar or a Holy Grail or whatever. They're not intended for PC use, otherwise they'd already have rules attached.

I wouldn't say that. While they are of course a bit more intelligent than real golems, it is said this intelligence merely means they can somewhat adapt to varying situations on a battlefield when given orders. Thus, diplomacy and intimidate will be relatively worthless and bluff would work only when disguising oneself as someone who is authorized to give them orders.

Well, let's have a look-see at their Intelligence. Hmm, 3. An Animal is restricted to an Int of 2 or lower. A creature with 3 Int knows a language and while not the brightest everbright lantern on the street is still within the realm of humanoid possibility. It'll have difficulties with anything one would consider academic (mathematics, philosophy, even grammer) but it can learn from its experiences and adapt to changing stimuli.

A creature with no Intelligence is mindless and responds to stimuli based on comparitively simple instincts or programming. A Scorpion or Ant is likely to react identically to the same situation every time it occurs. It won't learn because, well, it can't, it's Int -. Similarly, a Golem will respond however its instructions tell it to. It will react identically to a set of later, identical circumstances unless its programming tells it not to. It too can't learn and can't adapt.

Because a Titan is actually intelligent as opposed to mindless, and has a will of its own, you can't simply tell it to do something and it'll do it (from a rules perspective). A Nimblewright, despite being intelligent, is bound to its creator just as a Golem is. So are homunculi. They do as their master says, because they CAN'T refuse. However, a Titan can. As a result, one must somehow convince it to take a particular action. How does one do that? Why, there are a whole subset of skills related to that very purpose!

Now, I'm not saying that a skill check would be required to get a Titan to do everything. If it willingly takes orders from you (such as if it were your Cohort) and it sufficiently trusts you, I'd think it would just do as it's told.

Man, see how complicated this is getting? That's probably why there aren't creation rules, to discourage this very idea.
Dragom
02-26-07, 02:19 AM Note the Crook the Warforged, in the picture of the Titan, is holding?

It could be a Rod of Commanding Titans. Or it could be tied to that particular one.

Mind you it could potentially have the mentality of a cow and require steady direction of a pack or any leader to to know what it is supposed to do and would infact freak right out in the abscence of guidance. Kind of like a temper tantrum.

So we come to the big question. Are most Titans housed in underground warehouses where they murmer to each other on such fascinated topics as "it's dark" and "Who are you?" for years on end or are they assigned individually to handlers?

'Cause seriously, who would decomision them? It would be like melting down an Abrahm's or an Idaho. Too much money spent and too much potential use left.
UnderworldLord
02-26-07, 10:26 AM Well, according to the MfD series, two are in Construct. I'd say Cannith probably has them now, and if they don't... well they just might be down there murmering to each other. Think what would happen if they PCs stumbled on that storage room.

PC: I enter the room and thrust my lantern out in front of myself.

DM: You see a dozen Warforged Titans, and the Lord of Blades.

PC::uh-huh:
Kinger
02-26-07, 05:50 PM Note the Crook the Warforged, in the picture of the Titan, is holding?

It could be a Rod of Commanding Titans. Or it could be tied to that particular one.

I'd forgotten about that little guy. While I'd rather not use art as the sole basis for a conclusion, it does make sense to me that a Titan would have a designated "handler," possibly recognized by the crook (which could double as a weapon, maybe). Plus, the stick could be used to give non-vocal direction during battle, since just shouting at the Titan might not be effective in the cacaphony of war.
goblin_pride
02-26-07, 07:30 PM Mind you it could potentially have the mentality of a cow and require steady direction of a pack or any leader to to know what it is supposed to do and would infact freak right out in the abscence of guidance. Kind of like a temper tantrum.

The artificer in my game is going to hate you. Don't take it personally, but I'm nicking that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GhostStepper 02-21-07, 11:24 PM	Sure you cant make them in eberron since they most likely were created using the Creation Forges, but what if your not using eberron and want plain old crafting rules for them? Are there any creation rules for warforged titans out there?
Cambian00 02-21-07, 11:33 PM	no rule that I know of....except for the standard rules for making golems... of course a titan is a lot bigger than a standard golem so I would probably up the DCs a bit
Cifer 02-22-07, 08:38 AM	Sure you cant make them in eberron since they most likely were created using the Creation Forges There's a difference between "can't" and "shouldn't" - especially since Thronehold only applies to Khorvaire, not to Xen'drik.
UnderworldLord 02-22-07, 10:40 AM	And since you can always be a criminal and operate one anyway. Like oh say, if the Lord of Blades had one.
GhostStepper 02-22-07, 02:47 PM	Im not really concerned with the legality or practicallity of created them in eberron, just if there are creation rules in one of the books that im missing. Besides, even though they have the "warforged" designation they arent even living constructs! What exactly is it about them that puts them in the same category as regular living warforged and thus subject to the rulings of the Thronehold treaty? Wouldnt they be just as viable as a Slaughterstone behemoth or Iron Golem?
Tzarevitch 02-22-07, 03:28 PM	Im not really concerned with the legality or practicallity of created them in eberron, just if there are creation rules in one of the books that im missing. Besides, even though they have the "warforged" designation they arent even living constructs! What exactly is it about them that puts them in the same category as regular living warforged and thus subject to the rulings of the Thronehold treaty? Wouldnt they be just as viable as a Slaughterstone behemoth or Iron Golem? There are no rules on creating them and I doubt there will ever be any. If you want something close look up the Maug race in MMII or FF (I can't remember which). They are the only intelligent and free-willed constructs that I am aware of that have creation rules. Note however that a titan has many more HD and is bigger than a maug, so price would have to be modified accordingly. Tzarevitch
UnderworldLord 02-22-07, 04:03 PM	They are the proto-warforged, if you will. Constructs that are just intelligent enough to be able to alter their battle plans. Not much, but its like having a trained dog... a really really big trained dog. As far as other intelligent constructs go, I thought thee was another one somewhere.
Cifer 02-22-07, 04:45 PM	Not much, but its like having a trained dog... a really really big trained dog. A really big trained dog with a mace and an axe and the tendency to crush people... What exactly is it about them that puts them in the same category as regular living warforged and thus subject to the rulings of the Thronehold treaty? Wouldnt they be just as viable as a Slaughterstone behemoth or Iron Golem? They most probably come out of a creation forge since they are based on the same technology as WF - and those were to be dismantled. Additionally, I'm not entirely sure that the people who signed Thronehold would want anyone running around with those things during relative peace-time, intelligent or not.
Kinger 02-22-07, 06:19 PM	A really big, really vicious dog, that also happens to be smarter than Lassy. At the Titan's Int level, it can understand a language and may even be able to speak one back. You'd use standard rules of influencing intelligent creatures if you wanted them to do anything (ie: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, that sort of thing, rather than "Handle Construct" or whatever). As a result, since they aren't tied directly to their creator in the same way a Nimblewright is, it's possible they don't have creation rules simply to discourage players to get them. It saves the DM some hassle ("Why doesn't the titan do what I say?") and it doesn't apply to the more likely possessor of Titans (ie: the villains) since the DM controls the villains and can give them whatever he or she damn well pleases. That being said, the more likely reason for not providing them is that, so far, Warforged Titans are pretty much Eberron Exclusive (like Daelkyr, The Silver Flame, etc), by which I mean they haven't been assimilated into "standard" D&D like Drow, Pelor, Yuan-Ti, and so on. As a result, there aren't really rules out there for how Warforged Titans fit into Faerun, or Greyhawk, or wherever. All they've got is Eberron, and in Eberron, you need the Mystical Plot Widget known as a Creation Forge to make one. If your players have control of a Creation Forge, they've moved far enough beyond the likely scope/intention/whathaveyou of the setting that you're already on your own. :)
Cifer 02-22-07, 07:47 PM	If your players have control of a Creation Forge, they've moved far enough beyond the likely scope/intention/whathaveyou of the setting that you're already on your own. I'm not that sure about this one - after all, the LoBster is a midlevel threat, and guess what may be seen as his loot... You'd use standard rules of influencing intelligent creatures if you wanted them to do anything (ie: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, that sort of thing, rather than "Handle Construct" or whatever). I wouldn't say that. While they are of course a bit more intelligent than real golems, it is said this intelligence merely means they can somewhat adapt to varying situations on a battlefield when given orders. Thus, diplomacy and intimidate will be relatively worthless and bluff would work only when disguising oneself as someone who is authorized to give them orders.
UnderworldLord 02-22-07, 08:12 PM	Plus I don't see you doing much intimidating on one... especially with increased HD and size you can give them.
GhostStepper 02-23-07, 01:12 AM	especially with increased HD and size you can give them. That is true...by HD 25 they are gargantuan. Too bad i cant make one.
Edymnion 02-23-07, 12:49 PM	Im not really concerned with the legality or practicallity of created them in eberron, just if there are creation rules in one of the books that im missing.No, as a fundamental building block of what the Warforged race is in the setting, you simply can't build one, and that extends to all the various kinds of WF. Even given that, they are built uisng Eldritch Machines, which in laymen's terms = "plot device". There are no prices for WF, no guidelines for how to make them, or anything else. And since making rules for this would go directly against the spirit of the setting, it is highly unlikely that they ever would. Given that, you could always look at the Nimblewright as another sentient construct and use it for the base.
Kinger 02-25-07, 06:24 PM	I'm not that sure about this one - after all, the LoBster is a midlevel threat, and guess what may be seen as his loot... I disagree. The Lord of Blades is a higher-level threat (as in Higher Than the PCs), since it's been said many times that he's an example of a villain that is supposed to grow with the PCs. If your PCs adventure around for several years and reach level 15, the LoBster shouldn't still be the level 12 villain he is at the start of the campaign. Going with the comparison between the LoB and Doctor Doom, it'd be like Doctor Doom just resting on his laurels after his first little scheme goes well, rather than continuing to plan further diabolical enterprises. And even if we assume that NPC levels are static and that the LoB won't ever improve, are you saying you'd willingly give your PCs control (not just possession) of a Creation Forge, which is effectively an Artifact/Eldricht Machine that functions however you, the DM, wants it to? I'd disagree with that. It's the NPCs, typically the villains, that have the secret laboratories with doomsday devices, and sit waiting for their plans to be foiled, not the PCs generally. A Creation Forge is in the same class as a Deathstar or a Holy Grail or whatever. They're not intended for PC use, otherwise they'd already have rules attached. I wouldn't say that. While they are of course a bit more intelligent than real golems, it is said this intelligence merely means they can somewhat adapt to varying situations on a battlefield when given orders. Thus, diplomacy and intimidate will be relatively worthless and bluff would work only when disguising oneself as someone who is authorized to give them orders. Well, let's have a look-see at their Intelligence. Hmm, 3. An Animal is restricted to an Int of 2 or lower. A creature with 3 Int knows a language and while not the brightest everbright lantern on the street is still within the realm of humanoid possibility. It'll have difficulties with anything one would consider academic (mathematics, philosophy, even grammer) but it can learn from its experiences and adapt to changing stimuli. A creature with no Intelligence is mindless and responds to stimuli based on comparitively simple instincts or programming. A Scorpion or Ant is likely to react identically to the same situation every time it occurs. It won't learn because, well, it can't, it's Int -. Similarly, a Golem will respond however its instructions tell it to. It will react identically to a set of later, identical circumstances unless its programming tells it not to. It too can't learn and can't adapt. Because a Titan is actually intelligent as opposed to mindless, and has a will of its own, you can't simply tell it to do something and it'll do it (from a rules perspective). A Nimblewright, despite being intelligent, is bound to its creator just as a Golem is. So are homunculi. They do as their master says, because they CAN'T refuse. However, a Titan can. As a result, one must somehow convince it to take a particular action. How does one do that? Why, there are a whole subset of skills related to that very purpose! Now, I'm not saying that a skill check would be required to get a Titan to do everything. If it willingly takes orders from you (such as if it were your Cohort) and it sufficiently trusts you, I'd think it would just do as it's told. Man, see how complicated this is getting? That's probably why there aren't creation rules, to discourage this very idea.
Dragom 02-26-07, 02:19 AM	Note the Crook the Warforged, in the picture of the Titan, is holding? It could be a Rod of Commanding Titans. Or it could be tied to that particular one. Mind you it could potentially have the mentality of a cow and require steady direction of a pack or any leader to to know what it is supposed to do and would infact freak right out in the abscence of guidance. Kind of like a temper tantrum. So we come to the big question. Are most Titans housed in underground warehouses where they murmer to each other on such fascinated topics as "it's dark" and "Who are you?" for years on end or are they assigned individually to handlers? 'Cause seriously, who would decomision them? It would be like melting down an Abrahm's or an Idaho. Too much money spent and too much potential use left.
UnderworldLord 02-26-07, 10:26 AM	Well, according to the MfD series, two are in Construct. I'd say Cannith probably has them now, and if they don't... well they just might be down there murmering to each other. Think what would happen if they PCs stumbled on that storage room. PC: I enter the room and thrust my lantern out in front of myself. DM: You see a dozen Warforged Titans, and the Lord of Blades. PC::uh-huh:
Kinger 02-26-07, 05:50 PM	Note the Crook the Warforged, in the picture of the Titan, is holding? It could be a Rod of Commanding Titans. Or it could be tied to that particular one. I'd forgotten about that little guy. While I'd rather not use art as the sole basis for a conclusion, it does make sense to me that a Titan would have a designated "handler," possibly recognized by the crook (which could double as a weapon, maybe). Plus, the stick could be used to give non-vocal direction during battle, since just shouting at the Titan might not be effective in the cacaphony of war.
goblin_pride 02-26-07, 07:30 PM	Mind you it could potentially have the mentality of a cow and require steady direction of a pack or any leader to to know what it is supposed to do and would infact freak right out in the abscence of guidance. Kind of like a temper tantrum. The artificer in my game is going to hate you. Don't take it personally, but I'm nicking that.