Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mhacdebhandia 07-26-07, 10:24 PM	I'm going to review the "X in Eberron" entries from Monster Manual V, just to compare them to my opinions of how the setting works. These are my personal reactions. Arcadian Avenger: It's appropriate for these celestials to be found in Daanvi, but I don't like the idea of their travelling to Shavarath or fighting in the Last War - they would make sense as part of the forces of the archons, no doubt, but I don't envision there being much in the way of traffic between the planes, nor that planar creatures would participate in the wars of Eberron. Perhaps some arcadian avengers were summoned during the Last War, but I dislike the idea that they came of their own volition. Banshrae: Not too bad. As rare vagabonds banished from Thelanis, they make sense, but I like the idea of the banshrae serving the dark fey of the Watching Wood better than I like their serving demons. Burrow Root: The idea that House Deneith was breeding magical blood-drinking plants in the era before the Kingdom of Galifar is pretty much out of left field as far as I'm concerned, and not in a good way. I would use them as hazards of the Xen'drik wilderness. Demon, Adaru: I am most emphatically not down with the idea of tanar'ri being converted as creatures of Xoriat. They're described as "cunning demons that function best when leading bands of other tanar'ri into battle", so I would simply place them among the demon armies of Shavarath. Demon, Carnage Demon: They work as natives of Shavarath, and I don't mind the idea of a cabal of mercenary summoners using carnage demons in the Last War. Demon, Draudni: In contrast to the adaru, I actually don't mind the idea of obyriths being found in Xoriat. They're demons, but they're unlike the tanar'ri and have a strong association with madness; I'm quite content to have them there, a force separate from the daelkyr. Demon, Gadacro: I like the idea of these little tanar'ri haunting the ruined fortresses left after great battles of Shavarath. No complaints here. Demon, Solamith: Again, no complaints. Demonthorn Mandrake: Lamannia and Shavarath? Huh. Actually, that works - as does the idea of having them infesting parts of the Demon Wastes. They're useful as an easily-overlooked danger in Lamannia, especially. Devil, Remmanon: Pure crap, as far as I'm concerned. I don't agree that the quori who invaded Eberron could have "descendants", so this isn't useful at all. On the other hand, of course, a fiend which sows distrust and discord in mortals could find a home in the Demon Wastes and other strongholds of the Lords of Dust. Devil, Stitched Devil: A nice translation. I especially like the change in their alignment to lawful neutral, and the nickname "hag doll". Ember Guard: An unusual adaptation, but I like the idea of the servants of an efreeti being corralled by a fire giant. I'll continue in a little while.
mhacdebhandia 07-26-07, 11:17 PM	Ethereal Defiler: It's not a spectacular translation, but it's serviceable. Fetid Fungus: Ehh. I don't see a strong reason to associate them with the daelkyr - I would personally use them as a supplement to the verminous creepiness of the Children of Winter, or as a hazard of Xen'drik. Frostwind Virago: I see no problem with saying these creatures can be found everywhere that's cold. Golem, Force: Nothing too outrageous. It's a nice touch that the sentience of a force golem is the subject of speculation by warforged. Graveyard Sludge: No complaints here. Kuo-toa: Again, no complaints. I quite like the idea that the kuo-toa served the Dragon Below long before the invasion of the daelkyr. Merchurion: Controversial! Their connection to the creation forges of the giants might be rejected by some, but I don't mind the idea of some sort of small group of improperly-formed constructs being found in the ruins of an ancient giant workshop. Not sure that I care for the idea that merchurions have roamed beyond Xen'drik, though. Mind Flayers of Thoon: Pretty good. Xoriat and the Far Realm are basically identical, so this works for me. Mockery Bug: Heh. Entertaining enough, and I do like the idea that these creatures are some kind of spy-breeding experiment gone wrong. Ruin Chanter/Ruin Elemental: No complaints. Rylkar: Interesting connection to the Dhakaani. I would probably use them in the depths of Sharn, but I have no complaints. Scouring Construct: I really like this translation. Shaedling: It's an unusual choice to connect these fey to the Qabalrin elves, but not a bad one. Skull Lord: Nice choice to place these undead and their minions in opposition to Erandis Vol, serving the will of their long-dead creator Vrakmul. Spawn of Juiblex: Not really an inspired conversion, but no complaints. Thrym Hound: I like the idea that "Thrym" was, in Eberron, an island kingdom of frost giants. Like the frostwind virago, "anywhere that's cold" is an appropriate enough placement for these monsters. Tirbana: These work fine in Xen'drik, and I like the idea of growing conflict with the drow. Troll, Bladerager: I'm really pleased with the notion that some modern cloud giants in Xen'drik have stumbled upon the ancient process for creating these creatures. Tusk Terror: Not inspired, but again no complaints. Vivisector: I'm happy with these ideas. They'd make good one-shot villains for a Khyber shard-prospecting adventure, especially.
Rechan 07-26-07, 11:24 PM	Be Aware I do not have the book, but this is just general comment. Burrow Root: The idea that House Deneith was breeding magical blood-drinking plants in the era before the Kingdom of Galifar is pretty much out of left field as far as I'm concerned, and not in a good way. I would use them as hazards of the Xen'drik wilderness. If anyone's breeding magical creatures, it's more than likely going to be House Vandalis. They've been breeding magical animals for commercial uses like work and defense. The next phase would be plants for food, but also for defense. Another potential is a creature that has naturally developed in The Glooming. It also seems like Shavarath is the dump site for dangerous fiends and celestials. But I'd like to see some outsiders dropped into other places instead of lumping them all there. Sure, the Slaadi are in Kythri, celestials are in Syriania, and the various elemental-based outsiders are going to be in the elemental-based planes, but aside from that? I think somewhere Succubi were claimed to come from Mabar, but don't quote me on that. I know that Keith has said something about wanting to write about the conflict between demons from different planes - how a Devil from this plane and a devil from that plane may have serious issues with one another due to their planes of origin and such conflicts. I'd just like to see some representation of that somewhere.
Rechan 07-26-07, 11:29 PM	Kuo-toa: Again, no complaints. I quite like the idea that the kuo-toa served the Dragon Below long before the invasion of the daelkyr. Now, by serving the Dragon Below, what are they worshipping? Khyber itself? Or the Rajahs trapped in Khyber? (Off-topic rant: I hate how everything I ever read on 'Cults of the Dragon Below' is about the Daelkyr. Khyber itself births monsters and has power, and the Rajahs are down there too, but the Daelkyr-spawn get all the love. :()
Shady314 07-26-07, 11:46 PM	I think somewhere Succubi were claimed to come from Mabar, but don't quote me on that. . I believe you are correct.
mhacdebhandia 07-26-07, 11:48 PM	The burrow root is a plant creature, so I'm not happy with the idea of Vadalis breeding them either. It also seems like Shavarath is the dump site for dangerous fiends and celestials. But I'd like to see some outsiders dropped into other places instead of lumping them all there. Sure, the Slaadi are in Kythri, celestials are in Syriania, and the various elemental-based outsiders are going to be in the elemental-based planes, but aside from that? I think somewhere Succubi were claimed to come from Mabar, but don't quote me on that. That's from Mabar's entry in the core setting book. I was keeping an eye out for the possibility of placing outsiders in places other than Shavarath, but to be honest the fiends in this book simply fit into Shavarath better than other places. This is the kuo-toa entry: Since the Age of Demons, kuo-toas have swum the unfathomable seas and twisting waterways of Khyber. They have forgotten more dark secrets than the wise on Eberron's surface know, and they harbour knowledge that more than one power-hungry magician might kill for. Their perverse society is dedicated to the coiling Dragon Below, their madness rooted in creatures and enigmas extant long before the daelkyr crippled the Dhakaani Empire. Kuo-toan civilisation is dominant in the subterranean reaches under Khorvaire, where they make hideous deals with the creatures of the lords of Xoriat, emerging only to sell Khyber dragonshards to those brave or wicked enough to deal with them. Kuo-toan realms also exist in Khyber underneath Aerenal, Xen'drik, and in nearby oceans, but they are absent below the continents of Sarlona and Argonessen.
Rechan 07-26-07, 11:56 PM	Thank you for the kuo-toa entry. :)
Vharuck 07-26-07, 11:59 PM	I don't think demons belong in Xoriat. Demons are the embodiment of evil; this is too simple for anything from Xoriat. Those beasties play by rules that do not exist in the mortal realm or normal planes, I seriously doubt they'd spawn avatars of certain traits. Now I haven't read the MMV, but from what I can guess I would have them be servants used by those rakshasa loyal to a rajah of madness.
mhacdebhandia 07-27-07, 12:45 AM	I don't think demons belong in Xoriat. Demons are the embodiment of evil; this is too simple for anything from Xoriat. The reason I don't have a problem with it is twofold: First, the obyrith really are not like the vast majority of creatures that are considered to be demons in the Great Wheel cosmology, so they don't necessarily have to be associated with the demons of Shavarath (or Mabar, Fernia, or Lamannia). Second, daelkyr are not only evil, they have the [Evil] subtype - Xoriat is clearly not a place "beyond" producing creatures who are evil in their very essence. However, your idea is equally sound. I simply don't personally associate "alien" - which all obyriths are - with the native fiends of Khyber.
The White Sorcerer 07-27-07, 07:43 AM	Demon, Solamith: Again, no complaints. I have a complaint. "On the battleground of Shavarat, solamiths form ragtag squads to lay waste to the angelic host—specifically archons." What angelic host? The only celestial host in Shavarath are the archons. Angels are from Solania. Also, why do they only fight the archons and not the devils?
mhacdebhandia 07-27-07, 11:11 AM	I have a complaint. "On the battleground of Shavarat, solamiths form ragtag squads to lay waste to the angelic host—specifically archons." What angelic host? The only celestial host in Shavarath are the archons. Angels are from Solania. Also, why do they only fight the archons and not the devils? They're tastier? You're right about the "angelic host" bit, but I think that's just sloppy conflating of "celestial" with "angelic".
The White Sorcerer 07-27-07, 12:21 PM	You're right about the "angelic host" bit, but I think that's just sloppy conflating of "celestial" with "angelic". Yeah, but why say "specifically archons" if they're the only ones there? Why not just say "the archon hosts?" Just seems really redundant.
Millenia 07-29-07, 09:01 PM	It is redundant. It is just that the author of that piece probably thought there was more than one group of celestials - possibly eladrin, since they logically "fit" in that plane more than angels or guardinals.
The White Sorcerer 07-30-07, 08:29 AM	It is redundant. It is just that the author of that piece probably thought there was more than one group of celestials - possibly eladrin, since they logically "fit" in that plane more than angels or guardinals. Exactly, and that shows a major lack of research.
aelryinth 07-30-07, 07:57 PM	Angelic hosts is just a poetic name. Don't take it literally. It just refers to the shining good armies of the plane. Celestial armies, heavenly host, angelic host = all the same thing. ===Aelryinth
Hellcow 07-30-07, 09:08 PM	Bear in mind that *I* don't have MMV yet, so I'm just responding to your responses... I don't like the idea of their travelling to Shavarath or fighting in the Last War - they would make sense as part of the forces of the archons, no doubt, but I don't envision there being much in the way of traffic between the planes, nor that planar creatures would participate in the wars of Eberron. I'm not crazy about this either. Yes, it can happen, but it should be the exception, not the rule... and in many ways, the more powerful the spirit, the less likely it is. Each plane has its purpose, and the outsiders of the plane embody that purpose; the more powerful they are, the more critical their role. Shavarath is the plane of War. The soldiers of Shavarath believe that their war is reflected across the multiverse. If an archfiend left Shavarath to go mess around in Xoriat, his forces in the battle are suddenly at a serious tactical disadvantage. The angels of Syrania have duties in Syrania. For the most part, they have no interest in Shavarath, because they understand that Shavarath is a war that can never be won - and that by leaving their plan, they are abandoning their own duties. Certainly their are exceptions. Thelestes, Korlaac, a certain eladrin in Sharn, and the radiant idols are a few of these. If you want to use an angel in your game, use an angel in your game. But the outsiders aren't just Klingons - alien creatures living on other worlds basically just like ours. Most have a sense of purpose mortals could never understand - an assurance of their role in the universe that keeps an archon fighting for a million years, and leaves him ready to fight for a million more. One of these days I'd like to write more about the planes, since while Shavarath is easy, it's not always so easy to understand what the angels of Syrania ARE doing - but it's not something I have time to address now. Burrow Root: The idea that House Deneith was breeding magical blood-drinking plants in the era before the Kingdom of Galifar is pretty much out of left field as far as I'm concerned, and not in a good way. I would use them as hazards of the Xen'drik wilderness. Deneith breeding killer plants doesn't make much sense to me either. I'd have to see the description to make an alternate suggestion. Demon, Adaru: I am most emphatically not down with the idea of tanar'ri being converted as creatures of Xoriat. I'm not either. I agree that there's a good case for the obyriths, but not normal demons and devils. Devil, Remmanon: Pure crap, as far as I'm concerned. I don't agree that the quori who invaded Eberron could have "descendants", so this isn't useful at all. This does sound bizarre. Quori don't reproduce period (like other immortal outsiders, their numbers remain fixed), so the idea of literal descendants doesn't make sense. The standard theory is that the quori the giants dealt with had little in common (physically or morally) with the quori of the present day. Likewise, the quori believe that the turning of the age could snatch them even from other planes - fleeing isn't sufficient, they'd need to sever all ties with the plane, and even at that point the results are uncertain. So this sounds very iffy.
Sir Elton 07-30-07, 10:57 PM	I did not get Monster Manual V, I got Secrets of Sarlona. So, Secrets of Sarlona is my D&D Purchase of the Quarter. I really like the idea that the Quori don't reproduce. Il-Lashvatar produced all the Quori of Dal Quor. However, I do find it interesting that the Kalaqs are numbering 12, another Baker's Dozen, even though they were 14 before (Taratai is a Kalaq.) But Keith, there is always a danger to a shared world. The downside with being the creator of a Shared World is the tendency of the world getting away from your vision. Eberron has the potential to grow dynamically and organically; but sometimes it gets away from what you originally envisioned.
Hellcow 07-30-07, 11:43 PM	But Keith, there is always a danger to a shared world. The downside with being the creator of a Shared World is the tendency of the world getting away from your vision. Eberron has the potential to grow dynamically and organically; but sometimes it gets away from what you originally envisioned. Oh, absolutely. That's already happened. In the case of setting sourcebooks, I just have to grin and bear it; the world is in WotC's hands, and I'm glad I still get to be a part of it. In the case of MM sidebars, I see them as far more like "Eberron Expanded" - The writer saying "Here's how I'd do it" as opposed to "This is canon Eberron". Dragons of Eberron takes a different approach to Tiamat than MM IV, for example. If you LIKE the MM sidebars, by all means use them - but as an Eberron author, I don't feel obliged to stand by them. And I'm glad to hear you're getting good use out of SoS, Sir Elton!
Rerecros 07-31-07, 12:04 AM	This does sound bizarre. Quori don't reproduce period (like other immortal outsiders, their numbers remain fixed), so the idea of literal descendants doesn't make sense. I've been thinking on this subject, and had something of a problem with this, specifically the source of half-fiends. My solution (which is a house rule and is based on absolutely nothing official) Is that outsiders don't reproduce, rather than can't. Any product between breeding outsiders that do have some manner of gender is usually an abomination. Unlike their parents they aren't counted for the purposes of static numbers. ie. When one dies, they just die, no identical outsider springs up to take their place. Depending on the combination that spawned them, they may or may not be anything like their parents. All in all Outsiders tend not to breed, fiends lack the most basic levels of compassion and tend to kill their young if they don't turn out exactly how they wanted which is almost always. While most other outsiders have neverending duties that come before parent hood. But on rare occassions, like quori trapped on the prime, reproducing is a viable option. Though I personally find the Remmanon to be an unlikely result of quori stock. Edit: There is also the problem of outsiders like Formians and slaadi who do reproduce. I think Formion queens are true examples of their race, that are a permanent part of their plane, where as their inbreed offspring can very in number and can be killed. I'm still thinking about slaad, but since I don't like slaad very much I ain't think'n too hard.
yrogerg 07-31-07, 12:38 AM	I'm still thinking about slaad, but since I don't like slaad very much I ain't think'n too hard. Keep in mind everything that Chaos, on a planar scale, represents: change: Growth. Destruction. Creation. On the personal level, it represents the primacy of the individual over the organization. The particular way Slaadi reproduce actually does make a certain amount of sense.
Hellcow 07-31-07, 01:21 AM	I've been thinking on this subject, and had something of a problem with this, specifically the source of half-fiends. To speak the the reasoning behind it: in Eberron, outsiders that don't reproduce are true immortals. They cannot be killed. When they die, their spiritual energy is reincarnated over time (and it can take time) to create a new outsider of the same type. Thus, the point is that their numbers remain constant. Thus the war on Shavarath will never end. They don't take time off to reproduce. They can't create new outsiders by reproducing. But they fallen will always return, in time... though only the greatest among them possess the memories of their predecessors. But what about half-fiends? After all, there are half-fiends in the Demon Wastes. The Daughters of Sora Kell are half-fiends. The point is that outsiders can't reproduce with each other - but nothing's stopping them from reproducing with other creatures. And like dragons, nothing's limiting them in what they can reproduce with. In my opinion, such reproduction doesn't follow normal biological process at all; the outsider isn't a normal biological creature, after all. Rather, the outsider essentially infects its partner with something that could be seen as either an idea or a virus depending on your outlook. The organic creature creates a host for this concept and births it, and voila - your half-fiend. As for how it works in reverse, that depends on the creature in question. Obviously Sora Kell is capable of bearing children - but exactly what was involved in this process is another question of arcana. I'd say that certain fiends are have a greater inclination and ability to do this; some may be especially "virile", while others have little ability to spawn half-fiends (given the relatively few numbers of them in Eberron - and the fact that half-fiends traditionally have wings - I'd argue that the rakshasa appear either to have little ability or else little inclination to sire half-fiends). Obviously this is my opinion, and you should certainly feel free to pursue your own path. But the concept of outsiders not reproducing in Eberron is based on the fact that those outsiders that don't reproduce are immortal. Any outsider that can be permanently killed through simple combat (or even age) - an aasimar, for example - likely reproduces through (relatively) normal means. Edit: There is also the problem of outsiders like Formians and slaadi who do reproduce. I think Formion queens are true examples of their race, that are a permanent part of their plane, where as their inbreed offspring can very in number and can be killed. I'd agree. The offspring would fall into that aasimar category. Not all outsiders are true immortals, and it's only the true immortals who don't reproduce.
DBlizzard 07-31-07, 02:16 AM	Burrow Root: The idea that House Deneith was breeding magical blood-drinking plants in the era before the Kingdom of Galifar is pretty much out of left field as far as I'm concerned, and not in a good way. I would use them as hazards of the Xen'drik wilderness. I agree that House Deneith doing so is a pretty odd idea. However, we do "know" that House Vadalis was experimenting with deadly insect swarms around the time of the War of the Mark* that were so dangerous they abandoned them. So the general concept has some basis. The biggest issue is assigning the creation to a particular house. I don't see any particularly likely to be experimenting with plants. Of course, it could have just been an influential scion of one of the houses. * Per the Mark of Heroes adventure, The Delirium Stone, written by one Keith Baker. (House Cannith also had their own since abandoned creation in this adventure as well).
Rechan 07-31-07, 03:02 AM	Per the Mark of Heroes adventure, The Delirium Stone, written by one Keith Baker. (House Cannith also had their own since abandoned creation in this adventure as well). Where's that found?
Hellcow 07-31-07, 09:56 AM	I agree that House Deneith doing so is a pretty odd idea. However, we do "know" that House Vadalis was experimenting with deadly insect swarms around the time of the War of the Mark* that were so dangerous they abandoned them. Ooh! So close! However, I assume you're refering to the Vadalis bloodswarm - and if you take another look, you'll see that they aren't insects at all, but rather "tiny, hovering birds - black-feathered hummingbirds with plates of bony armor and long beaks dripping with acid." Essentially, horrid hummingbirds. This does mean that Vadalis was experimenting with horrid animals - leaving the question of whether the practice was forbidden since then, whether it was somehow to unpredictable or expensive (for example, it could be that they found a way to make horrid animals, but that these creations were sterile, requiring rebreeding from scratch each time), or if the creatures were too difficult to control. What's said in The Delirium Stone is "The swarms proved difficult to control, and the carnage they left in their wake horrified many members of other houses; eventually Vadalis was forced to destroy the bloodswarms. Over the centuries the knowledge of their creation has been lost - though perhaps a devoted heir of the Mark of Handling could breed them anew." I'll note that it's not simply the case that House Vadalis abandoned them - rather, they were forced to destroy them by the other houses, much as the Cannith was later forced to shut down the creation forges. Still, bonus points for the reference. ;)
Sir Elton 07-31-07, 10:47 AM	And I'm glad to hear you're getting good use out of SoS, Sir Elton! Yes, I'm excited to have the book. I'm going to have Storn draw up one of my Eberron characters in the near future, so that you can have a good idea of what he looks like (back to back with his Karrnathi commander -- who is a death knight -- fighting Daarguni hobgoblins). So far, there's a big argument over how I built the character with my meager resources. :) To hell with them, a novel character can't be translated to it's game counterpart with any faithfulness anyway. A good idea for an Eberron monster is the Bloodbeast. A nasty bag of blood and bones that is undead. When you 'kill" it, it effectively absorbs blood from your wounds and regenerates. A nasty monster. although, I don't have Monster Manuals III-V, so I don't know if something like the Bloodbeast has shown up.
DBlizzard 07-31-07, 08:52 PM	Ooh! So close! However, I assume you're refering to the Vadalis bloodswarm - and if you take another look, you'll see that they aren't insects at all, but rather "tiny, hovering birds - black-feathered hummingbirds with plates of bony armor and long beaks dripping with acid." Essentially, horrid hummingbirds. Oops. It's been a while since I looked closely, although I have printed out the Bloodswarm and Glyphweaver to use in an adventure after EotLQ (they really need to be reprinted in a more available source...maybe through the DI). Still, my point was that the houses were experimenting with some pretty dangerous stuff that they don't deal with anymore. The various reasons are interesting, but any reason they abandoned the "Burrow Root" could work. The real challenge is figuring out which House would have been experimenting with blood drinking plants. I could see a Kundarak druid scion might have done so, hoping to have something guard the vaults. If it the creature couldn't serve that purpose, maybe it was a failed experiment that spread.
Rechan 07-31-07, 09:25 PM	Where is The Delirious Stone found?
Runepriest 07-31-07, 11:50 PM	A good idea for an Eberron monster is the Bloodbeast. A nasty bag of blood and bones that is undead. When you 'kill" it, it effectively absorbs blood from your wounds and regenerates. A nasty monster. although, I don't have Monster Manuals III-V, so I don't know if something like the Bloodbeast has shown up. There's something similar in MM3, called the Charnel Hound. size huge. P.S. This is my first post in a long time.
ksbsnowowl 08-01-07, 10:49 AM	Devil, Remmanon: Pure crap, as far as I'm concerned. I don't agree that the quori who invaded Eberron could have "descendants", so this isn't useful at all. On the other hand, of course, a fiend which sows distrust and discord in mortals could find a home in the Demon Wastes and other strongholds of the Lords of Dust.I agree, I saw that and thought "Huh? How in Khyber does a baatezu get produced from a quori?" I actually rewrote their place in Eberron to better fit their abilities, Eberron flavor and needs, and to address a further problem I was having in finding a way to introduce the Hellbred race (Fiendish Codex II) to Eberron. Another poster had suggested the basic idea of Archons and Devils stealing souls from Dolurrh as infantry for their eternal war, and that lead to the following thought-process: I rather liked this idea, even though it is somewhat difficult logistically for the devils to pull off in mass numbers (none of them can plane shift, though some of the archons can). Ask, and the great Wizards from the Coast will provide... I just got the Monster Manual V for my birthday yesterday. Lo and behold, there is a Baatezu called a Remmanon that can plane shift at will, bringing along willing passengers. The devils are intelligent, charismatic, and manipulative, even granting devilish contracts (faustian pacts). The Remmanon has an "... in Eberron" entry, but it is utter crap, stating they are native to the material plane, and are descendants of the Quori who invaded millenia ago... How in Dol Dorn's name does a Baatezu decend from a Quori? Thus, I've constructed a better-fitting role for the Remmanon. They use their plane shifting and contractual abilities to secure aid for devils in the eternal war on Shavarath. Thus, like most beings of the plane, their primary goal is to further the objectives of their war. About 20 years ago one Remmanon secured a contract that has led to the appearance of Hellbred. He was in Dolurrh, looking for ways to exploit things to further the eternal war in the devils’ favor, and he noticed a potential point of manipulation. Amnizu devils (FCII) reside on Dolurrh, and are tasked with ensuring that the souls arriving on the plane remain there forever. The problem is that pesky mortals sometimes call back the souls of the dead via magic. The Amnizus’ superiors, the Marut, become displeased with the Amnizu if they fail in their duties, allowing too many to souls escape. Each Amnizu is accountable for the souls that arrive in his province of Dolurrh. Noting this accountability, the devil introduced itself to one of the Amnizu as Remmanon. It offered a contract to the Amnizu presiding over the province of hell. He would provide the Amnizu’s province with an impenetrable prison fortress where he could imprison newly arrived souls with physical barriers and a Dimensional Anchor until such time as the soul has succumbed to the desolation of the plane, and had given up any desire to be returned to its former life. In exchange, “When a soul is needed, Remmanon may offer a soul newly arrived to Dolurrh the option to be born again to fight in an eternal war.” The soul would make the choice freely and willingly, and thus only new souls that had not succumbed to the desolation could be chosen. Being the cunning manipulators they are, the Remmanon played as being one of dull wits. Despite his apparent dimwittedness, the Remmanon assured the Amnizu that the number of souls Remmanon can harvest could not exceed the number of souls prevented from being resurrected, held captive within hell’s new fortress. The Amnizu agreed, the contract was signed, and the Remmanon returned with a devilish work force. Soon the fortress was complete, and the Amnizu was pleased with his new security. The Amnizu made the mistake of believing Remmanon to be the individual’s name, rather than his race. Not a day after the fortress was completed, a hundred Remmanon arrived in Dolurrh’s hell province, all cloaked in disguises. They scoured the province for new souls that had yet to be captured by the Amnizu and imprisoned in his new fortress. Those they found saw before them angelic beings offering them the chance to escape this glum imprisonment, and to be born again to fight in an eternal war against demons. Most every soul to whom they made this offer accepted. As the souls left Dolurrh with the Remmanon, most of their memories were stripped away and left in that desolate realm. Upon reaching Shavarath, the plane bore them anew, with bodies made from the dirt, blood, and battle detritus of the plane, much as the slain devils and archons are reborn from the plane itself after their slaughter. The reborn souls then came to realize they had been conscripted by a legion of devils. Some accepted this in stride. Both the devils and the archons fought mercilessly; did it really matter which side they were on? Others despised their new existence, tortured by the knowledge they had freely chosen to aid such creatures. The marut did not like that an increasing number of souls were disappearing from hell province, but the contract was without flaw. So they increased their encouragement of the Amnizu of hell province to not fail in his lawful obligation. They placed a Mark of Justice upon him that would allow him to feel every pain inflicted on the escaped souls while they were absent from Dolurrh. This pain in turn has caused the Amnizu to grant a touch of protection to the hellbred released by his contract, in the hopes that he can stifle the pain that he must bear. Not long after, a few Remmanon began offering a few hellbred soldiers as a part of contracts with beings on other planes. This is how the few hellbred on Eberron came to be in the material world. It's a rough write-up, but a good seed, I think. It deals at least with the lawful inhabitants of Dolurrh, and being lawful, they would honor a valid contract. The failure of any lawful duty falls upon the Amnizu, and thus he is the focus of their punishment. It also deals with the question of "where do their bodies come from?" as well as why they are not attacked by the whirling blades. (Although nothing is actually said clearly of souls becoming shades. It says visitors, implying those who arrive there temporarily via spells, etc. Either way, it remains a non-issue.) Thus, the only unsatisfied beings in the arrangement are the Nalfeshnee (and the one unfortunate Amnizu), but I doubt the Marut would allow them to interfere with a valid contract, apart from capturing souls before they are found by the Remmanon. So, the original question stands... is there anything stopping inter-planar travel that does not involve the material world? The only issue that comes to mind is, why then do the Quori not plane shift to another plane, and then shift to Eberron. Also similar for the Dealkyr. Maybe the Remmanon must stop over in Eberron first, but Eberron does not rebirth spirits as Shavarath does. Like I said, it is a seed. I'll have to see where it goes. I'd love to get Keith's opinion of my idea, or perhaps another suggested means of introducing Hellbred? And one other question that no one seemed to know the answer to - Can one travel from one plane to another, say from Dolurrh to Shavarath, without passing through the material plane? Nothing is said about it one way or the other in the Campaign Setting. If so, what affect, if any, does a plane's remote or coterminous state with Eberron have on such travel? PS - sorry for the round-about thread hijack. The thread-specific part is about Remmanon using their plane shift and contractual abilities to secure aid for the eternal war.
DBlizzard 08-01-07, 11:09 AM	Where is The Delirious Stone found? Delirium Stone was an adventure in the RPGA's Mark of Heroes campaign. The campaign is over at this point, so it can only be obtained from those that ran the adventure (and they aren't supposed to distribute it).
DarkWarriorKarg 08-01-07, 11:30 AM	The Remmanon (sounds like a digimon) doesn't even have dream-related abilities. Instead of Deneith, maybe the burrow-root is a Ghallanda product gone horribly wrong, the result of a magical experiment to make crops like potatoes grow... unfortunately way too close to a concealed gatekeeper planar seal. As for the Arcadian Avenger, it's suggested that they go to Shavarath to "Hone their skills". In other words, they don't stay (they're also like CR 6). Perhaps they are "called" to Shavarath when the forces of order are losing. I would have dumped them in Shavarath or Celestia myself.
lordalm 08-01-07, 06:45 PM	Hello all. I thought I would share some thoughts I have had concerning the demons and devils of Eberron. I was, from MMIV and probally MMV (don't own it yet), unimpressed at the effort put into making any attempt to explain the presence of creatures in Eberron. As been often implied, it seems the authors never even picked up the ECS. So I had a problem from the git go with how the evil bad outsiders, let alone the good ones, worked in the cosmology of Eberron. As Hellcow indicated the True Childeren of Khyber are all immortal demons of great power. Rakasha, while may have emerged from Khyber, they probally lived close to Eberrons surface to escape being lunch. Which with thier shape changing and charisma based skill sets make sense to me. It also ensures that they would be still around after the Dragon and Demon wars. Unlike Hellcow, I see these while essentially immortal beings. Breeding, making little rakasha, as well as the variant forms of rakasha, wether through breeding or magical experimentation. My reasoning is this. If an immortal being, even one as lowly as a Rakasha lived since the War between the Dragons and Demons. His level progression would pretty much garuntee a being of near god like powers. A Raja equivalent. This apparently isn't true, or such a being is bored out of his skull and is staring into Xoriat to pass the time. So Rakasha, the only apparent demons of note or numbers in Eberron. Some must die and new ones come forth. Since they come as males and females, this indicates mortal like breeding. Now they may be doing as Hellcow suggested, simply recycling the souls of the departed Rakasha. But to me that cuts into a intersting possibility. Khyber, unable to control Eberron's surface through is limited number, but truly powerful childeren. Has servants, of more limited power, but with the ability to create more than thier original numbers. Strength in numbers tells, as all my players who fall to kobolds and goblins can attest. When I have turned my attention to the planes after reading the entries in the MMIV. I decided I didn't like Demons being from the planes. Thier supposed to be of Khyber! So after some stewing I had a briliant idea. After spending so much time residing on the planes, they became linked to them. An evolution or devolution occured giving us the creaters we know from the sources books. Why you ask? You can use mortal souls to create more demons and devils in D&D. I see this as natural progression of the True Childeren to turn the mortals to thier will and increase thier ranks. Couple the drive of mortals with Demonic essence, you'll get ambitious beings looking to take your power, and life away from you. So the older Demons get cleared out and new beings arise. Devils. who are never mention as coming from Khyber from what I remember reading. Now how to address the already mentioned shoe horning of critters? Simple, take the fluff text of any demon or devil. If it seems to fit strongly to some plane thematically. Stick it there, and call it a devil (all non-native outsiders become Devils this way, while native remain Demons). This allows for a general contempt between devils and demons to exist. This also shows how you get the Planar Dragons, as they basically followed the Demons who fled to the planes or already resided there, to continue/finish the war. So by my way of thinking, the plane of death would be populated by demons, devils and anything else death oriented. Like attracted to like. I think I would leave the aforementioned Succubi on Eberron. An eternal thorn in the would be dominace of the Rakasha as the lords of all Demon kind. So my thoughts on the ordering of Demons and Devils and other things that go bumb in the night. Comments welcome.
Rerecros 08-01-07, 10:55 PM	And one other question that no one seemed to know the answer to - Can one travel from one plane to another, say from Dolurrh to Shavarath, without passing through the material plane? Nothing is said about it one way or the other in the Campaign Setting. If so, what affect, if any, does a plane's remote or coterminous state with Eberron have on such travel? No, that's partly why the Idea you like so much is bunk. If interplanar travel was easy, the quori and the Dealkry would just walk to the other planes to get to the prime. Unlike in planescape, outsiders have actual duties to their own planes, and don't go galavanting to other planes. I think that this idea could work however if you just cut out the wholly unnecessary middle man (Shavarath) and have Amnizu devils offer mortals souls direct return to the prime as hellbred, their servents. It's a whole hellspawn thing, returning to what he thinks is his home to find everything changed, including himself. As for the Arcadian Avenger, it's suggested that they go to Shavarath to "Hone their skills". In other words, they don't stay (they're also like CR 6). Perhaps they are "called" to Shavarath when the forces of order are losing. I would have dumped them in Shavarath or Celestia myself. No, the idea that they would go bypass the prime to find a link some opscure plane, or bother some powerful dvaani being with planeshifting powers to enter a conflict that has no effect on them to be swfitly torn apart by whirling blades as a best case scenario. Dumping everything in Shavarath certainly isn't the answer either, I was glad when they finally made something for arcadia/dvaani. This is not planescape, there is no war amongst the planes, shavarath is just more or less a dumping ground for all the bloodwar garbage WotC spits out. Without interplanar conflict, writters now have to actually think when they make new outsiders for eberron. @ lordalm, Where do I even begin telling you how erroneous your statements are. You seem to be confusing the spawn of kyber with feinds on other planes, do you even own a copy of the ECS? I know that kyber spawn are often called "demons", but the fiends are not divided in eberron the same way they are in planescape. Abolethes, are also children of kyber, and they can vary in number to do that whole strength in numbers thing you seem to be fond of. More outsiders CAN'T be made from mortal souls, mortals can't become outsiders niether. Sometimes feinds promise this but this, but it is beyond their power. Their numbers are fixed, and nothing can change that. Also outsiders DON'T change over time, they are as they are, and whenever killed they return to their original state. They don't evolve. I'm not sure where you are getting this where you getting this whole migration thing from, the feinds, and kyber's offspring are not related. Now before anyone counter attacks for attacking people's ideas I want to remind you that you can all do what you want regardless of what I say (It makes me sad to know I have to remind people of this fact), But If you are going to make such drastic alterations to the most basic of mechanics to eberron why are you even playing eberron in the first place?
lordalm 08-01-07, 11:14 PM	Now before anyone counter attacks for attacking people's ideas I want to remind you that you can all do what you want regardless of what I say (It makes me sad to know I have to remind people of this fact), But If you are going to make such drastic alterations to the most basic of mechanics to eberron why are you even playing eberron in the first place? What he said. Thanks for the input. I was just trying to figure out how the planes got thier residents. Whole sprung into existence always bothers me. Unh. I will reread the spawn of Khyber bits in the ECS. I have a terrible memory, but I was pretty sure they were refered to as demons. Hence the whole demon as a subtype for the critter listings bothered when placed in the planes. What can I say, I like logic in my fantasy. Terrible affliction I know.
Rerecros 08-01-07, 11:45 PM	Yes, the classification is differnet, fiends aren't divided neatly into demons and devils, their alignments overidden by their purpose to a specific plane. My explanation for the beginning of the universe in Eberron; The Prophecy, whatever it is, deals with the definition of reality. The universe used to be a sort of soup, which in swam the 3 progenitor dragons. In this soup, there was no difference between life and death, illusion and reality. The universe was a black sheet and new outsiders sprung into exsistance and died out in a flash. The discovery and/or creation of the prophcey by the progenitor dragons changed all this, it gave the universe form. Life (Irian), death (dolugh) and undeath (mabar) became distinct states. Illusion (dal quor) was separated from reality. The planes took on definite shapes, the most primal states of what is, and the outsiders as living embodiments of their planes took on the shapes as they are seen today. The Progenitor dragons (who are both one and three at once) continue on through their offspring, who are a continuation of their original consciousness, not that any of this has an impact on gameplay :D I draw this mostly from egoism, quantum mechanics, Evangelion and final fantasy 9 :D
Hellcow 08-02-07, 12:26 AM	I decided I didn't like Demons being from the planes. Thier supposed to be of Khyber! But where do you think the planes came from? A dragon will tell you that the material plane was the last work of the Progenitors, and that all of the planes bear their touch. But Dragons of Eberron will discuss these beliefs in more detail. As it stands, the outsiders embody aspects of their planes. The fiends of Eberron represent the darkness of Khyber - and as Rerecros says, not all those who claim to be children of Khyber are outsiders. The fiends of Eberron also represent the most traditional view of fiends - something that is touched on in the conversion notes I wrote for Savage Tide, and which will hopefully be seen soon in the long-delayed Fiendish Codex Eberron Expanded. The fiends of Shavarath are very different from the traditional image. They are spirits of war, not corruption or temptation. Those of Fernia are embody the destructive power of flame, the fear it engenders in mortals, the hunger to devour and destroy. They aren't just spirits who decided to settle down in the plane; they ARE the plane. You can certainly use the more traditional fiends as rare spawn of Khyber; again, check out the Savage Tide conversion (at Paizo) or wait for the web article if you want my full take on this. But the beings of the planes are deeply tied to their planes.
Ront Iron-Roar 08-30-07, 12:07 AM	So Kieth....is the Wild Hunt modeled after that Fey Lord in your third Dreaming Dark book? Though to be honest it reminds me more of Hirciene from Elderscrolls III: Bloodmoon. Another thing I'm somewhat dissapointed with is no mention of the Guulvarg in Dhakaani society if not the various arcanist hobgoblins.
Hellcow 08-30-07, 01:26 AM	So Kieth....is the Wild Hunt modeled after that Fey Lord in your third Dreaming Dark book? Given that the hounds in MMV aren't made out of blood, I'd guess it's more likely that the MMV entry is (however loosely) based on the legend of the Wild Hunt. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_hunt) ;) Certainly the Gates of Night draws on the general archetype of the faerie huntsman, but the Huntsman of GoN has more in common with Arawn (from Pwyll's tale in the Mabinogion, not the villainous Arawn from the Lloyd Alexander books) than the full Wild Hunt, given that he's just riding about on his own. He's one of a band of brothers, each with their own schtick; he happens to be the Huntsman.
Wizardman 08-30-07, 04:12 AM	He's one of a band of brothers, each with their own schtick; he happens to be the Huntsman. Will we ever meet the others?
ZeroSD 08-30-07, 07:36 AM	But where do you think the planes came from? A dragon will tell you that the material plane was the last work of the Progenitors, and that all of the planes bear their touch. But Dragons of Eberron will discuss these beliefs in more detail. I've wondered about this a lot. Were they maybe by Siberys on his journies before his death (and why would Sibby make Xoriat?)? Were there lesser progenitor that did it? The cosmotology of Eberron is interesting :)
Hellcow 08-30-07, 04:45 PM	Will we ever meet the others? Well, you get two of them in Gates of Night. I don't have any plans to go back to Thelanis in the near future, so I wouldn't say that it's likely... but who knows, if a planar handbook comes out, they might be mentioned. As for the progenitors-made-the-planes theory, Dragons of Eberron is where it's described.