New to Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

New to Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
skid45
06-01-07, 08:12 PM I'm relatively new to Eberron. I'm very taken with TOB. Where are the Sunspire Mountains and is there any more background info coming up for TOB?
gensuke626
06-01-07, 08:49 PM Are the Sunspire mountains in the ToB or did you hear about them in an Eberron book?
tallric_kruush
06-02-07, 01:19 PM Welcome, skid45. ToB is a "love it or hate it" type of thing, it seems. I, for one, love it.

Do you have the Search feature available to you? If so, it would be located between the Forum FAQ and Log Out options of the forums control bar. If you do have Search, then do a search for ToB or Tome of Battle. There have been many threads devoted to this topic. You can likely find them simply by searching a few pages into the Classes..., Combat..., or General boards.

All that said, there are different schools of thought on ToB in Eberron. Some are in favor of making the different disciplines race specific. The Hobgoblins of Dhakaan and the Tairnadal Elves are commonly agreed as good choices to introduce ToB classes. There has even been at least one, if not two, threads about ToB Classes with Drow.

So, take a look a little deeper into the boards. If you don't find anything, I'd be surprised, but happy to post some of my ideas here.

Also, to answer your question concerning the "Sunspire Mountains": Most of the fluff provided in ToB seems very ill-suited to Eberron without a lot of tinkering. I think that's one pf the reasons, though certainly not the greatest, that some are so resistant to introducing it to their Eberron games.
gensuke626
06-02-07, 03:59 PM After a bit of research I can safely say this...The Sunspire Mountains do not exist in Eberron untill you put them there. As far as I know, they exist in Greyhawk, and have never been mentioned in any Eberron book.

That's just fluff as written...so if you really wanted to add them...
tallric_kruush
06-02-07, 10:36 PM That's just fluff as written...so if you really wanted to add them...

Or, better yet, replace them with something that is in Eberron...;)
tallric_kruush
06-03-07, 12:58 AM I had another thought, skid45.

There's a thread on the Eberron General board in which the community is sharing some of it's favorite PCs and NPCs. Here's the link.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=854513

I've posted twice concerning characters I've enjoyed either playing or creating. I give pretty detailed backgrounds for my PCs in that thread, and several of them use ToB classes. Perhaps they'll give you some ideas of how to use the ToB in your campaign.
Nived
06-04-07, 08:02 AM Personally I believe the fluff as is in the Tome of Battle works well in Eberron. From the Hobgoblin Iron Heart monastery of Ur-Thaldaar to it being a Rakshasa that ultimately destroyed the Temple of the Sublime Way.

I feel that largely the entire fluff can be left as is.

Think of it this way.

Various disciplines existed across Eberron, some in Xen'drik, some passed down from the Goblin Empires, some came over from Sarlona... you know whatever. "Three lifetimes ago" assuming Reshar was a human that would be roughly three centuries ago, a man traveled the world and brought together many varied styles of fighting.

He made a temple in a remote region. He taught students there.

He left.

His students carried on teaching for roughly a century, then the Supernal Clarity was stolen by a Rakshasa. Decent started to build in the temple. Eventually the Shadow and Tiger masters tried their little coup de'tat. That didn't work. So they raised armies of monstrous humanoids and destroyed the temple. Roughly 150 years ago. Since then the disciplines have once again scattered.

Why couldn't this have happened in Khorvaire I ask you?

The Kingdom of Galifar would have done something about a army of monstrous humanoids marching through it you say?

Well then the natural answer, my friends, is that this army didn't march through Galifar.

My suggestion is thus. Instead of it being the Sunspire Mountain Range... just have it be Sunspire Mountain, with it being in an existing range in Eberron.

What range? I'm glad you asked.

For the fluff text to still make sense it seems natural to place Sunspire Mountain and the Temple of the Sublime Way somewhere in either the Greywall Mountains or the Byeshk Mountains that border modern day Droaam. You see 300 years ago this would have been the western reaches of Breland, still wild, and a good place for a secluded monastery. The fact that its near Droaam means that it makes sense that a army of monsterous humanoids could have been raised and battled without the interferance of Galifar (remember remote and secluded... in what 150 years later would be a nation of monsters).

This does not mean that the use of the Sublime Way need be widespread in Khorvaire, remember... Remote and Secluded. After the Temples fall there would have been a span of a few decades before the start of the Last War, not a lot of time to reestablish strong followings to any path really before being thrown into war. As The Way takes years to master in a war setting there isn't time to study and refine ones self... those with the potential to learn are more apt to have become fighters and be in battle long before having the time to learn the disciplines.

This doesn't mean that the disciplines are lost. Not by any means. They still exist in their original state wherever Reshar found them to begin with. As to the origins not even the TOB spells them out and there have been long lengthy discussions here about where in Eberron the disciplines may have come from. A few masters who survived the fall of the temples did manage to pass on their teaching even in the midst of war (for instance my personal take does not have the origins of the Shadow Hand discipline tied to House Phiarlan, but rather that at some point during the existence of the Temple of the Sublime Way an heir learned it and brought it to the house and now it is used by them).

In this way I feel you can have the fluff of Tome of Battle exist within Eberron with few changes without invalidating it or Eberron canon at all.
tallric_kruush
06-04-07, 01:03 PM Personally I believe the fluff as is in the Tome of Battle works well in Eberron...I feel that largely the entire fluff can be left as is.

Nived, when I got this far into your post, I was sure I wouldn't agree. Fortunately, I'm not one of those people that bypasses every post longer than a few sentences.

Very nice post. You've made me realize that I never really tried to make the provided fluff fit. Your idea brings the prevailing ideas for ToB disciplines in Eberron into harmony with the ToB material provided.

:clap: :cookie:
Nived
06-04-07, 03:54 PM Thank you Tallric for giving me the benifit of the doubt and reading my babbling. I tend to be an 'includist' and work with my players to make their character concepts fit. Which means I'm generally willing to allow anything so long as its not for pure powergaming. So long as we can work together to make it work within the context of the setting.

However I will say that when I first sat down to read Tome of Battle I thought that the developers wanted it to be an Eberron book. From the Hobgoblins getting the nod as Reshar's first teachers and the monastary being named Ur-Thaldaar (very similar to Eberron goblin naming conventions). To the fiend who destroyed the untiy of the temple being a Rakshasa... I thought "Man they wrote this generically but they wanted it in Eberron."

Maybe I'm wrong, I certainly seem to be a minority who thought that. Most seem to think that ToB has no place whatsoever in the setting. They're certainly entitled to that opinion but 'snot mine.
tallric_kruush
06-04-07, 04:45 PM Thank you Tallric for giving me the benifit of the doubt and reading my babbling.

I've found that long posts often contain a lot of worthwhile information. Also, my posts tend to get a little lengthy a times, so how could I skip those of others.

However I will say that when I first sat down to read Tome of Battle I thought that the developers wanted it to be an Eberron book. From the Hobgoblins getting the nod as Reshar's first teachers and the monastary being named Ur-Thaldaar (very similar to Eberron goblin naming conventions). To the fiend who destroyed the untiy of the temple being a Rakasha... I thought "Man they wrote this generically but they wanted it in Eberron."

When I first sat down with ToB, I had the same feeling. After I finished reading it cover to cover, though, I felt it just didn't fit. Your post helped me see that more of it could fit than I thought. It even offers a logical explanation as to how the traditions of the Tairnadal, the Dhakaani, and other peoples could be found in practice with modern warriors. (All that by using the fluff provided...:thinks:...go figure...)

Most seem to think that ToB has no place whatsoever in the setting. They're certainly entitled to that opinion but 'snot mine.

As a fan of ToB, this somewhat saddens me. In a world with eldritch machines, manifest zones the size of cities, sentient constructs, airships....you get the point--in a world with all this, you're telling me martial traditions like those in ToB don't have a place?? :uh-huh: It boggles my mind.

I don't think martial adepts should be common. Perhaps not everyone has the potential or skill to even advance as an adept. In that case, maybe they'd be no more common than Sorcerors (maybe even less if your setting features oodles of Sorcerors). Few should be able to acheive this particular type of combat prowess. It's a different path than that of the Fighter. That's the point! (This may also be the problem, I fear. Many are afraid to try new things in their games, and are quick to judge that which they've never tried.)

Additionally, if the Temple was founded outside the bounds of Galifar, and it's members were never numerous to begin with, that too could explain why so few adepts exist today. It's a rare art now, not to be learned within the regular military training of the Five Nations.

In regard to using the ToB fluff "as is":

Reshar's followers, that is to say any who were ever part of the Temple of the Nine Swords, could never have been very numerous, in my mind. Otherwise, their temple likely wouldn't have fallen. Also, if they had been numerous, we'd likely see more adepts than we do.

That a temple of martial study could/would arise in the Graywall Mts. (or wherever), flourish, and fall---that's begging for some additional Eberron-specific explanation. Where was Reshar from? Where'd he go? Why didn't he found this temple within the lands of Galifar? What really motivated the Rakshasa to steal the sword? (I can't imagine it was simply covetousness. That's not the M.O. of Eberron's rakshasas. )

Maybe the temple wasn't in Droaam, but rather in the Icehorns or Shadowcrags. Did the temple somehow incur the wrath of the all-to-near fiends of the Demon Wastes?? Whatever happened, since it involved only a relatively small and isolated group, it all happened without any real impact upon the Kingdom of Galifar.

So many ways to go with this...
Need_A_Life
06-09-07, 01:43 PM I never saw a problem fitting ToB into Eberron, though I obviously didn't give it as much thought as Nived has.

When I read ToB (not when I got it, but when I read it), I had already read enough Eberron to understand the role of Hobgoblins, so when I saw that Hobgoblins were the original masters of the Iron Hand school, I immediately thought of Eberron.
Then came the Setting Sun "taught on the islands beyond the dawn," which (in my mind) is a reference to Aernal, where the elves had developed the technique to fight the physically stronger giants.
I never thought about where the temple would've been, though the Mror Holds would be my initial instinct (though I am prepared to "yoink" Niveds idea), but then again geography has never been my strength, especially not concerning natural features.
A rakshasa stealing one of the Nine swords seemed perfect for Eberron. Weakening the strongest of mortals by making them fight each other seems proper for a rakshasa. Besides, when you live forever you want something "badass. Really badass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html)", dunnit?
yrogerg
06-11-07, 08:17 AM What really motivated the Rakshasa to steal the sword? (I can't imagine it was simply covetousness. That's not the M.O. of Eberron's rakshasas. )

Then he stole it for its role in some plot of his. Personally, I'd rather let individual DMs fill in the rest of the story here: Was Supernal Clarity the sword he was looking for? Did it serve its purpose for him? What, specifically, was he going to do with it? etc.

Incidentally, placing the monastery near Droamm actually fits extremely well. It meshes particularly well with Hellcow's idea of making Sora Maenya the primary source of Tiger Claw knowledge at the campaign date. She could have been one of the traitorous disciples, or perhaps she was among the "monstrous humanoids" that sacked the monastery.
Nived
06-11-07, 11:22 AM I agree with yrogerg, those blanks should be filled in when and if a DM needs them filled in. The rest of the time 'mysterious stranger' works for Reshar.

In my game the 'Shadow-Tiger Horde' still exists as an elite warband that serves the Daughters of Sora Kell. In a similar manner that the Marine Corps in the United States officially existed before the formation of the United States this war band's (legion, unit whatever) history traces back to the sacking of the temple prior to the last war.

So when the PCs happen across 'monsters' with the insignia of a black tiger enblazened on their armor... well they better watch their rears.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
skid45 06-01-07, 08:12 PM	I'm relatively new to Eberron. I'm very taken with TOB. Where are the Sunspire Mountains and is there any more background info coming up for TOB?
gensuke626 06-01-07, 08:49 PM	Are the Sunspire mountains in the ToB or did you hear about them in an Eberron book?
tallric_kruush 06-02-07, 01:19 PM	Welcome, skid45. ToB is a "love it or hate it" type of thing, it seems. I, for one, love it. Do you have the Search feature available to you? If so, it would be located between the Forum FAQ and Log Out options of the forums control bar. If you do have Search, then do a search for ToB or Tome of Battle. There have been many threads devoted to this topic. You can likely find them simply by searching a few pages into the Classes..., Combat..., or General boards. All that said, there are different schools of thought on ToB in Eberron. Some are in favor of making the different disciplines race specific. The Hobgoblins of Dhakaan and the Tairnadal Elves are commonly agreed as good choices to introduce ToB classes. There has even been at least one, if not two, threads about ToB Classes with Drow. So, take a look a little deeper into the boards. If you don't find anything, I'd be surprised, but happy to post some of my ideas here. Also, to answer your question concerning the "Sunspire Mountains": Most of the fluff provided in ToB seems very ill-suited to Eberron without a lot of tinkering. I think that's one pf the reasons, though certainly not the greatest, that some are so resistant to introducing it to their Eberron games.
gensuke626 06-02-07, 03:59 PM	After a bit of research I can safely say this...The Sunspire Mountains do not exist in Eberron untill you put them there. As far as I know, they exist in Greyhawk, and have never been mentioned in any Eberron book. That's just fluff as written...so if you really wanted to add them...
tallric_kruush 06-02-07, 10:36 PM	That's just fluff as written...so if you really wanted to add them... Or, better yet, replace them with something that is in Eberron...;)
tallric_kruush 06-03-07, 12:58 AM	I had another thought, skid45. There's a thread on the Eberron General board in which the community is sharing some of it's favorite PCs and NPCs. Here's the link. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=854513 I've posted twice concerning characters I've enjoyed either playing or creating. I give pretty detailed backgrounds for my PCs in that thread, and several of them use ToB classes. Perhaps they'll give you some ideas of how to use the ToB in your campaign.
Nived 06-04-07, 08:02 AM	Personally I believe the fluff as is in the Tome of Battle works well in Eberron. From the Hobgoblin Iron Heart monastery of Ur-Thaldaar to it being a Rakshasa that ultimately destroyed the Temple of the Sublime Way. I feel that largely the entire fluff can be left as is. Think of it this way. Various disciplines existed across Eberron, some in Xen'drik, some passed down from the Goblin Empires, some came over from Sarlona... you know whatever. "Three lifetimes ago" assuming Reshar was a human that would be roughly three centuries ago, a man traveled the world and brought together many varied styles of fighting. He made a temple in a remote region. He taught students there. He left. His students carried on teaching for roughly a century, then the Supernal Clarity was stolen by a Rakshasa. Decent started to build in the temple. Eventually the Shadow and Tiger masters tried their little coup de'tat. That didn't work. So they raised armies of monstrous humanoids and destroyed the temple. Roughly 150 years ago. Since then the disciplines have once again scattered. Why couldn't this have happened in Khorvaire I ask you? The Kingdom of Galifar would have done something about a army of monstrous humanoids marching through it you say? Well then the natural answer, my friends, is that this army didn't march through Galifar. My suggestion is thus. Instead of it being the Sunspire Mountain Range... just have it be Sunspire Mountain, with it being in an existing range in Eberron. What range? I'm glad you asked. For the fluff text to still make sense it seems natural to place Sunspire Mountain and the Temple of the Sublime Way somewhere in either the Greywall Mountains or the Byeshk Mountains that border modern day Droaam. You see 300 years ago this would have been the western reaches of Breland, still wild, and a good place for a secluded monastery. The fact that its near Droaam means that it makes sense that a army of monsterous humanoids could have been raised and battled without the interferance of Galifar (remember remote and secluded... in what 150 years later would be a nation of monsters). This does not mean that the use of the Sublime Way need be widespread in Khorvaire, remember... Remote and Secluded. After the Temples fall there would have been a span of a few decades before the start of the Last War, not a lot of time to reestablish strong followings to any path really before being thrown into war. As The Way takes years to master in a war setting there isn't time to study and refine ones self... those with the potential to learn are more apt to have become fighters and be in battle long before having the time to learn the disciplines. This doesn't mean that the disciplines are lost. Not by any means. They still exist in their original state wherever Reshar found them to begin with. As to the origins not even the TOB spells them out and there have been long lengthy discussions here about where in Eberron the disciplines may have come from. A few masters who survived the fall of the temples did manage to pass on their teaching even in the midst of war (for instance my personal take does not have the origins of the Shadow Hand discipline tied to House Phiarlan, but rather that at some point during the existence of the Temple of the Sublime Way an heir learned it and brought it to the house and now it is used by them). In this way I feel you can have the fluff of Tome of Battle exist within Eberron with few changes without invalidating it or Eberron canon at all.
tallric_kruush 06-04-07, 01:03 PM	Personally I believe the fluff as is in the Tome of Battle works well in Eberron...I feel that largely the entire fluff can be left as is. Nived, when I got this far into your post, I was sure I wouldn't agree. Fortunately, I'm not one of those people that bypasses every post longer than a few sentences. Very nice post. You've made me realize that I never really tried to make the provided fluff fit. Your idea brings the prevailing ideas for ToB disciplines in Eberron into harmony with the ToB material provided. :clap: :cookie:
Nived 06-04-07, 03:54 PM	Thank you Tallric for giving me the benifit of the doubt and reading my babbling. I tend to be an 'includist' and work with my players to make their character concepts fit. Which means I'm generally willing to allow anything so long as its not for pure powergaming. So long as we can work together to make it work within the context of the setting. However I will say that when I first sat down to read Tome of Battle I thought that the developers wanted it to be an Eberron book. From the Hobgoblins getting the nod as Reshar's first teachers and the monastary being named Ur-Thaldaar (very similar to Eberron goblin naming conventions). To the fiend who destroyed the untiy of the temple being a Rakshasa... I thought "Man they wrote this generically but they wanted it in Eberron." Maybe I'm wrong, I certainly seem to be a minority who thought that. Most seem to think that ToB has no place whatsoever in the setting. They're certainly entitled to that opinion but 'snot mine.
tallric_kruush 06-04-07, 04:45 PM	Thank you Tallric for giving me the benifit of the doubt and reading my babbling. I've found that long posts often contain a lot of worthwhile information. Also, my posts tend to get a little lengthy a times, so how could I skip those of others. However I will say that when I first sat down to read Tome of Battle I thought that the developers wanted it to be an Eberron book. From the Hobgoblins getting the nod as Reshar's first teachers and the monastary being named Ur-Thaldaar (very similar to Eberron goblin naming conventions). To the fiend who destroyed the untiy of the temple being a Rakasha... I thought "Man they wrote this generically but they wanted it in Eberron." When I first sat down with ToB, I had the same feeling. After I finished reading it cover to cover, though, I felt it just didn't fit. Your post helped me see that more of it could fit than I thought. It even offers a logical explanation as to how the traditions of the Tairnadal, the Dhakaani, and other peoples could be found in practice with modern warriors. (All that by using the fluff provided...:thinks:...go figure...) Most seem to think that ToB has no place whatsoever in the setting. They're certainly entitled to that opinion but 'snot mine. As a fan of ToB, this somewhat saddens me. In a world with eldritch machines, manifest zones the size of cities, sentient constructs, airships....you get the point--in a world with all this, you're telling me martial traditions like those in ToB don't have a place?? :uh-huh: It boggles my mind. I don't think martial adepts should be common. Perhaps not everyone has the potential or skill to even advance as an adept. In that case, maybe they'd be no more common than Sorcerors (maybe even less if your setting features oodles of Sorcerors). Few should be able to acheive this particular type of combat prowess. It's a different path than that of the Fighter. That's the point! (This may also be the problem, I fear. Many are afraid to try new things in their games, and are quick to judge that which they've never tried.) Additionally, if the Temple was founded outside the bounds of Galifar, and it's members were never numerous to begin with, that too could explain why so few adepts exist today. It's a rare art now, not to be learned within the regular military training of the Five Nations. In regard to using the ToB fluff "as is": Reshar's followers, that is to say any who were ever part of the Temple of the Nine Swords, could never have been very numerous, in my mind. Otherwise, their temple likely wouldn't have fallen. Also, if they had been numerous, we'd likely see more adepts than we do. That a temple of martial study could/would arise in the Graywall Mts. (or wherever), flourish, and fall---that's begging for some additional Eberron-specific explanation. Where was Reshar from? Where'd he go? Why didn't he found this temple within the lands of Galifar? What really motivated the Rakshasa to steal the sword? (I can't imagine it was simply covetousness. That's not the M.O. of Eberron's rakshasas. ) Maybe the temple wasn't in Droaam, but rather in the Icehorns or Shadowcrags. Did the temple somehow incur the wrath of the all-to-near fiends of the Demon Wastes?? Whatever happened, since it involved only a relatively small and isolated group, it all happened without any real impact upon the Kingdom of Galifar. So many ways to go with this...
Need_A_Life 06-09-07, 01:43 PM	I never saw a problem fitting ToB into Eberron, though I obviously didn't give it as much thought as Nived has. When I read ToB (not when I got it, but when I read it), I had already read enough Eberron to understand the role of Hobgoblins, so when I saw that Hobgoblins were the original masters of the Iron Hand school, I immediately thought of Eberron. Then came the Setting Sun "taught on the islands beyond the dawn," which (in my mind) is a reference to Aernal, where the elves had developed the technique to fight the physically stronger giants. I never thought about where the temple would've been, though the Mror Holds would be my initial instinct (though I am prepared to "yoink" Niveds idea), but then again geography has never been my strength, especially not concerning natural features. A rakshasa stealing one of the Nine swords seemed perfect for Eberron. Weakening the strongest of mortals by making them fight each other seems proper for a rakshasa. Besides, when you live forever you want something "badass. Really badass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html)", dunnit?
yrogerg 06-11-07, 08:17 AM	What really motivated the Rakshasa to steal the sword? (I can't imagine it was simply covetousness. That's not the M.O. of Eberron's rakshasas. ) Then he stole it for its role in some plot of his. Personally, I'd rather let individual DMs fill in the rest of the story here: Was Supernal Clarity the sword he was looking for? Did it serve its purpose for him? What, specifically, was he going to do with it? etc. Incidentally, placing the monastery near Droamm actually fits extremely well. It meshes particularly well with Hellcow's idea of making Sora Maenya the primary source of Tiger Claw knowledge at the campaign date. She could have been one of the traitorous disciples, or perhaps she was among the "monstrous humanoids" that sacked the monastery.
Nived 06-11-07, 11:22 AM	I agree with yrogerg, those blanks should be filled in when and if a DM needs them filled in. The rest of the time 'mysterious stranger' works for Reshar. In my game the 'Shadow-Tiger Horde' still exists as an elite warband that serves the Daughters of Sora Kell. In a similar manner that the Marine Corps in the United States officially existed before the formation of the United States this war band's (legion, unit whatever) history traces back to the sacking of the temple prior to the last war. So when the PCs happen across 'monsters' with the insignia of a black tiger enblazened on their armor... well they better watch their rears.