Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tallric_kruush 02-23-07, 03:56 PM	I just got MMIII yesterday, so I'm well behind those who picked it up over two years ago. I reviving and proceeding to beat a dead horse, here, but the observation is as follows: I recall players expressing a desire to play a warforged scout, but lamenting it's stats as sub-optimal for PCs. I never recall a solution being suggested, and that's where I'm probably wrong. Looking at the Ability Score Adjustments, wouldn't giving the +2 Con common to standard warforged make for a more balanced character anyway?? I'm sure they removed it because of the small size, but that hardly seems like a good reason to me. The other benefits/drawbacks of playing a small character seem enough to me. I don't see a need to remove the Con boost. My question would be, I guess : Does giving the Warforged Scout the +2 Con boost common to standard warforged make the WS a viable PC race/type? I'd say so, but I'm curious what others might say. I can't say I'd ever play one, myself. I've never even played a standard Warforged, yet. (Though I have rolled 'em up, a time or two.) I'm just curious...and bored....:P
Thanatose 03-03-07, 09:23 AM	I would think that would be reasonable. that or raise the dex bonuse to +4 insted of +2. thease sound like reasonable ajustments. or perhaps give them a full 30ft movement even for a small creature. STR is considered Dubble when used as a Racial mod. Meaning that the Scout should be gaining like a +4 to racials not a +2 with a -6 My personal idea would be the fallowing -2str +2dex+2con -2wis -2cha Speed of 30ft (warforged scouts can move faster becuse thare Construct nature lets them get past thare size Hinderince. it also helps them with thare main job as scouts ) does this seem balanced?
Zombomaniac 03-03-07, 01:04 PM	It looks good to me. The -2str +2dex cancels eachother out. As does the +2con -2wis and the -2 Cha covers the 10 ft of speed.
Emeramber 03-03-07, 01:51 PM	Our group also uses the +2 Con, 30' move additions. It's never presented us problems.
JulesCARV 03-03-07, 02:58 PM	One possibility is to give them stuff that would make them better as scouts. Currently, they aren't nearly as good at being scouts as, say, goblins, unless they're on scouting missions that go on longer than a goblin could go without needing rest. They have no special visual abilities, and their wisdom penalties gives them an innate -1 to listen and spot checks. For instance: -60 foot darkvision -+2 racial bonus to listen and spot checks (slightly more than makes up for the wisdom penalties)
goblin_pride 03-03-07, 05:38 PM	Currently, they aren't nearly as good at being scouts as, say, goblins, unless they're on scouting missions that go on longer than a goblin could go without needing rest. A warforged isn't going to be as good a scout as a goblin for a few reasons. First, goblins are sneaky. I know it's a stereotype, but all goblinoids are described as being stealthy. It's the one defining characteristic of the goblinoid races. That's the reason goblins have a +4 move silently as a racial bonus. Their size gives them an additional bonus of +4 to hide that a warforged scout can get, but a goblin is still able to sneak up on the people he's watching far better. Second is long history. Goblins have a tremendously long history of fighting against and scouting for other, larger races. That history doesn't really effect game mechanics, but for flavor it would mean that a goblin would have tactics taught by older members of his clan that were handed down through hundreds if not thousands of generations. Cannith artificers can make gear for a warforged scout that should be more suitable to a scout, but goblin culture has evolved around being those scouts so their entire technology is geared towards it. Third is speed. A goblin moves at 30' because they have to be able to move quickly to evade pursuit, avoid predators, and keep up with the army. It's not so much that they were naturally fast in ancient generations, but over the course of the rise and fall of the Dhakaani empire they grew into that speed because the weaker and slower of the race fell by the wayside. Fourth is Darkvision. There's not much that can be said on this one, the ability to see in total darkness is of such value to a scout that any further explanation would be pointless. Fifth, and to my mind the most important, the ability to read and understand motivation. Things like the quality and quantity of food the enemy forces are eating might escape a warforged simply because they don't eat, but a goblin can tell you that they've been been eating poorly. A warforged can report exactly what a sentry says, but a goblin might be able to read more into what was said, based on the context, expression and gestures. Now, having said that, lets look at the reasons why a warforged scout would be preferable. First, a warforged scout doesn't get tired. Second, a warforged scout doesn't eat, no food means no strain on the army's resources. Third and most important, a warforged won't betray you. A warforged is loyal 100% until the end, you don't have to worry about them going over to the other side or deserting. You don't have to worry about a warforged passing on false information because they've been bought off by the other side. Ultimately, the choice of scout depends heavily on trust. If you feel you can trust goblin scouts, you'll take those because they are better. If you feel that goblins can't be trusted, you'll buy warforged and get the second best scout.
JulesCARV 03-03-07, 06:26 PM	There's also the warforged wisdom penalty, which penalizes scouty skills like spot.
Raziel_Brokodar 03-03-07, 07:30 PM	...as others suggested; Changes I've made to make them more of a PC race was a +2 Con and 30ft speed, thus making them way better. (especially the speed) This seems to be a common fix ;)
Sturm Jaeger 03-03-07, 09:22 PM	One possibility is to give them stuff that would make them better as scouts. Currently, they aren't nearly as good at being scouts as, say, goblins, unless they're on scouting missions that go on longer than a goblin could go without needing rest. Goblin Scouts for the win! Dhakaan forever! :D
tallric_kruush 03-03-07, 11:00 PM	Funny. I thought this thread was dead before it started. It only took 10 days or so to get my first reponse.;) It sounds like most agree adding +2 Con and +10ft base speed is balanced. That's good, because I'd pretty much decided that's what I was going to do.:)
Grymar 03-07-07, 09:07 AM	We just went with the 30' movement, but the +2 con would work. I would rather have darkvision frankly. A good scout shouldn't need constitution. :)
Kaodi 03-07-07, 10:32 AM	Str -2, Dex +2, Wis -2, Cha -2 Move 30 ft, Low-Light Vision +4 racial bonus climb and jump -5% bonus to arcane spell failure from composite plating
goblin_pride 03-09-07, 05:32 PM	The only problem with the changes you've made are in the flavor. Warforged scouts aren't supposed to have all the advantages. They're warforged, so they should have all the warforged bonses and penalties as well as the penalties for being small. The whole point of there not being so many of them is because they're second-best. If you make the changes you've proposed, you make them the scout of choice and that would seriously alter the demographics. On another note, Warforged are bloody expensive and scouts are sent out away from their logistics for prolonged periods of time. Paying a king's ransom for a throwaway trooper would be terribly hard for any military commander to swallow, much less justify to his king.
goblin_pride 03-09-07, 05:34 PM	Str -2, Dex +2, Wis -2, Cha -2 Move 30 ft, Low-Light Vision +4 racial bonus climb and jump -5% bonus to arcane spell failure from composite plating Just think, by giving up the 30 move and the penalties to Wis and Cha you could make a Halfling.
Dragom 03-09-07, 09:26 PM	I thought they where supposed to be on the same power level as kobolds. And crappy stats never stopped any one from playing one of the adorable little scaly guys.