Odd uses of Racial Emulation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Odd uses of Racial Emulation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
unrulycow
07-26-07, 02:18 PM The Racial Emulation Feat says "Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes.

So would this mean you could qualify for feats and prestige classes temporarily?

Like take the Drow skirmisher feat (assuming you are from Xen'drik) that only gives you proficiency with weapons while in drow form? Or take adamantine body and become a warforged juggernaut some of the time?
JulesCARV
07-26-07, 02:26 PM The question is -- if you do, does that mean you no longer qualify for feats and prestige clases dependent on being a changeling, thus making the racial emulation feat self-contradictory if you actually use it? :devil:
Rerecros
07-26-07, 03:48 PM I think it's perfectly reasonable to allow a changeling access to other humanoid feats and PrCs using racial emulation, however doing so is very risky, as you would loose those feats and PrCs whenever you take any form but the qualifier race.

And Warforged aren't humanoid, they are constructs with the living construct subtype.

And no, they don't loose any changeling qualifiers using racial emulation.
TiwazTyrsfist
07-26-07, 05:58 PM I would indeed allow changelings with racial emulation and all the other necessary prerequisites take feats or prestige classes that normally require a different specific humanoid race.

For example, A changeling with racial emulation, a BAB of 6+, the ability to cast spells, and the appropriate feats, could take levels in Arcane Archer.
However, when not emulating an elf or half-elf, they would only get the BAB and Saves (and if applicable increased caster/manifest/etc level).
Rechan
07-26-07, 09:02 PM Here's something else that's fun with Racial Emulation:

RoE, Page 44

A changeling and a humanoid can mate to produce an offspring with the child having a 50% chance to be either race. If a changeling with the Racial Emulation feat matches its subtype to that of a partner, a child resulting from the union will always be of that humanoid subtype.

I interpret this to mean: if a changeling with the Racial Emulation feat chooses to, it can mate with a human and produce a pure human child. Any race, and at least IMHO any Dragonmark House could use changelings with the RE feat to breed their race true.
Shady314
07-26-07, 09:12 PM Here's something else that's fun with Racial Emulation:

RoE, Page 44

I interpret this to mean: if a changeling with the Racial Emulation feat chooses to, it can mate with a human and produce a pure human child. Any race, and at least IMHO any Dragonmark House could use changelings with the RE feat to breed their race true.

Wait I'm not understanding this. What's the benefit? Couldn't a DM family member just marry the appropriate race. They'd have to be easier to find than a changeling with the RE feat. Or did you mean changelings could all do this to try and breed themselves out of existence?
Rechan
07-26-07, 11:07 PM Wait I'm not understanding this. What's the benefit? Couldn't a DM family member just marry the appropriate race.

I said it was a fun usage, not a great one. It offers tricks for a plot or character background.
Shady314
07-26-07, 11:28 PM It offers tricks for a plot or character background.

Got it now. :) Good one.
Soltares
07-27-07, 10:11 AM If Racial Emulation opens up race-specific feats, it looks pretty shiny for a Chameleon, who can choose a different feat every day.
unrulycow
07-27-07, 11:50 AM [QUOTE=Rerecros;
And Warforged aren't humanoid, they are constructs with the living construct subtype.[/QUOTE]

Actually, minor shape change is based on an illusion spell, not a transmutation spell like the doppelganger change shape, so it does allow you to be a warforged. "For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature."

Would be an interesting choice for a chameleon, I agree. Chameleon is only open to Humans and Doppelgangers though, so officially you'd only have access to the class in one of those forms. Of course, since changelings are basically a hybrid of the two, it makes sense to house rule them in.
Melvin the Mediocre
07-27-07, 12:11 PM I interpret this to mean: if a changeling with the Racial Emulation feat chooses to, it can mate with a human and produce a pure human child. Any race, and at least IMHO any Dragonmark House could use changelings with the RE feat to breed their race true.

So Lady Vol's changling followers might be trying to bring back her Mark of Death.
DBlizzard
07-27-07, 12:14 PM Actually, minor shape change is based on an illusion spell, not a transmutation spell like the doppelganger change shape, so it does allow you to be a warforged. "For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature."

The issue isn't that the minor shape change only lets you look like a humanoid. It's that the Racial Emulation feat only references humanoids.

Personally, I would disallow anyone using a temporary ability to gain a feat, unless it fit very well with the character (say a changeling who has been disguised as an elf for most of his life).

So Lady Vol's changling followers might be trying to bring back her Mark of Death.
Not in my campaign world. Although it's not directly addressed by the rules, it's implicit that you have to be part of the family bloodline to gain a dragonmark (barring the two big exceptions). Changelings aren't part of that family, and don't have any living members to breed with.
Rerecros
07-27-07, 12:58 PM Actually, minor shape change is based on an illusion spell, not a transmutation spell like the doppelganger change shape, so it does allow you to be a warforged. "For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature."

Wrong on all accounts :D
First, Racial emulation only works for humanoid subtypes, so living constructs are off the table. Minor shapechange specifically states "This ability is not an illusionary effect". A Doppleganger's change shape ability is neither a spell, nor is it of the transmutation school. Changlings cannot take the shape of a warforged any easier than they can look like a human in fullplate, inorganic materials just aren't possible. When dealing with followers of the lord of blades as a changeling however, I usually just take the shape of a flesh golem. :D
Sarlax
07-27-07, 01:14 PM Changlings cannot take the shape of a warforged any easier than they can look like a human in fullplate, inorganic materials just aren't possible.
Why not? The ability keys off of Disguise Self, which clearly can produce the appearance of inorganic materials. Nothing in the changeling ability description changes that.
Rechan
07-27-07, 01:58 PM The changeling ability functions as disguise self, meaning it functions like Disguise Self, (and looking different gives them a +10 bonus to the disguise skill). Just that minor shapechange is not an illusionary effect. It creates cosmetic physical changes. If a Changeling made its ears two feet wide, it would still not get any bonuses to listen. You can look like you have gills, but still cannot breathe water.

So if a changeling tried to look like a Warforged, it could. Just that its skin would look like metal and wood, but would still bleed if you poked it with a needle. The plates would be made of flesh that just looked metallic.
JulesCARV
07-27-07, 02:18 PM Then there's the changeling psion with racial emulation and the psychic reformation power, who can take different dragonmarks based on what's useful. He can have an authentic, functional Greater Mark of Making one day, then a Greater Mark of Handling the next.

Although that might not be as useful as the changeling barbarian/warshaper type who take racial emulation and catfolk pounce.

Maybe these ideas should go on the "Ideas to irritate Edymnion" thread, though.
The White Sorcerer
07-27-07, 02:37 PM He can have an authentic, functional Greater Mark of Making one day, then a Greater Mark of Handling the next.

Only if you're somehow related to both houses.
Darakhoranon
07-27-07, 04:42 PM Maybe these ideas should go on the "Ideas to irritate Edymnion" thread, though.

:schemes:

Is there really a thread like that? If not, we should probably open it...
JulesCARV
07-27-07, 04:56 PM The Ideas to irritate Edymnion (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=839282) thread was mainly active about two months ago.
Symar
07-27-07, 05:23 PM Actually, minor shape change is based on an illusion spell, not a transmutation spell like the doppelganger change shape, so it does allow you to be a warforged. "For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature."

Would be an interesting choice for a chameleon, I agree. Chameleon is only open to Humans and Doppelgangers though, so officially you'd only have access to the class in one of those forms. Of course, since changelings are basically a hybrid of the two, it makes sense to house rule them in.

It says on the web site here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1 at the very bottom that changelings are allowed in the class.
TiwazTyrsfist
07-27-07, 06:21 PM Personally, I would disallow anyone using a temporary ability to gain a feat, unless it fit very well with the character (say a changeling who has been disguised as an elf for most of his life).

Primarily I'd allow it for feats and PrCs where the racial requirement seems social rather than genetic. I.E. I'd let them use Racial Emulation to enter the Arcane Archer or Dwarven Defender classes, or take special weapons feats that require a specific race.

I wouldn't allow them to take Shifter feats for example. No extra shifter trait feat, razorclaw elite feat, or healing factor feat for you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
unrulycow 07-26-07, 02:18 PM	The Racial Emulation Feat says "Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes. So would this mean you could qualify for feats and prestige classes temporarily? Like take the Drow skirmisher feat (assuming you are from Xen'drik) that only gives you proficiency with weapons while in drow form? Or take adamantine body and become a warforged juggernaut some of the time?
JulesCARV 07-26-07, 02:26 PM	The question is -- if you do, does that mean you no longer qualify for feats and prestige clases dependent on being a changeling, thus making the racial emulation feat self-contradictory if you actually use it? :devil:
Rerecros 07-26-07, 03:48 PM	I think it's perfectly reasonable to allow a changeling access to other humanoid feats and PrCs using racial emulation, however doing so is very risky, as you would loose those feats and PrCs whenever you take any form but the qualifier race. And Warforged aren't humanoid, they are constructs with the living construct subtype. And no, they don't loose any changeling qualifiers using racial emulation.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-26-07, 05:58 PM	I would indeed allow changelings with racial emulation and all the other necessary prerequisites take feats or prestige classes that normally require a different specific humanoid race. For example, A changeling with racial emulation, a BAB of 6+, the ability to cast spells, and the appropriate feats, could take levels in Arcane Archer. However, when not emulating an elf or half-elf, they would only get the BAB and Saves (and if applicable increased caster/manifest/etc level).
Rechan 07-26-07, 09:02 PM	Here's something else that's fun with Racial Emulation: RoE, Page 44 A changeling and a humanoid can mate to produce an offspring with the child having a 50% chance to be either race. If a changeling with the Racial Emulation feat matches its subtype to that of a partner, a child resulting from the union will always be of that humanoid subtype. I interpret this to mean: if a changeling with the Racial Emulation feat chooses to, it can mate with a human and produce a pure human child. Any race, and at least IMHO any Dragonmark House could use changelings with the RE feat to breed their race true.
Shady314 07-26-07, 09:12 PM	Here's something else that's fun with Racial Emulation: RoE, Page 44 I interpret this to mean: if a changeling with the Racial Emulation feat chooses to, it can mate with a human and produce a pure human child. Any race, and at least IMHO any Dragonmark House could use changelings with the RE feat to breed their race true. Wait I'm not understanding this. What's the benefit? Couldn't a DM family member just marry the appropriate race. They'd have to be easier to find than a changeling with the RE feat. Or did you mean changelings could all do this to try and breed themselves out of existence?
Rechan 07-26-07, 11:07 PM	Wait I'm not understanding this. What's the benefit? Couldn't a DM family member just marry the appropriate race. I said it was a fun usage, not a great one. It offers tricks for a plot or character background.
Shady314 07-26-07, 11:28 PM	It offers tricks for a plot or character background. Got it now. :) Good one.
Soltares 07-27-07, 10:11 AM	If Racial Emulation opens up race-specific feats, it looks pretty shiny for a Chameleon, who can choose a different feat every day.
unrulycow 07-27-07, 11:50 AM	[QUOTE=Rerecros; And Warforged aren't humanoid, they are constructs with the living construct subtype.[/QUOTE] Actually, minor shape change is based on an illusion spell, not a transmutation spell like the doppelganger change shape, so it does allow you to be a warforged. "For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature." Would be an interesting choice for a chameleon, I agree. Chameleon is only open to Humans and Doppelgangers though, so officially you'd only have access to the class in one of those forms. Of course, since changelings are basically a hybrid of the two, it makes sense to house rule them in.
Melvin the Mediocre 07-27-07, 12:11 PM	I interpret this to mean: if a changeling with the Racial Emulation feat chooses to, it can mate with a human and produce a pure human child. Any race, and at least IMHO any Dragonmark House could use changelings with the RE feat to breed their race true. So Lady Vol's changling followers might be trying to bring back her Mark of Death.
DBlizzard 07-27-07, 12:14 PM	Actually, minor shape change is based on an illusion spell, not a transmutation spell like the doppelganger change shape, so it does allow you to be a warforged. "For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature." The issue isn't that the minor shape change only lets you look like a humanoid. It's that the Racial Emulation feat only references humanoids. Personally, I would disallow anyone using a temporary ability to gain a feat, unless it fit very well with the character (say a changeling who has been disguised as an elf for most of his life). So Lady Vol's changling followers might be trying to bring back her Mark of Death. Not in my campaign world. Although it's not directly addressed by the rules, it's implicit that you have to be part of the family bloodline to gain a dragonmark (barring the two big exceptions). Changelings aren't part of that family, and don't have any living members to breed with.
Rerecros 07-27-07, 12:58 PM	Actually, minor shape change is based on an illusion spell, not a transmutation spell like the doppelganger change shape, so it does allow you to be a warforged. "For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature." Wrong on all accounts :D First, Racial emulation only works for humanoid subtypes, so living constructs are off the table. Minor shapechange specifically states "This ability is not an illusionary effect". A Doppleganger's change shape ability is neither a spell, nor is it of the transmutation school. Changlings cannot take the shape of a warforged any easier than they can look like a human in fullplate, inorganic materials just aren't possible. When dealing with followers of the lord of blades as a changeling however, I usually just take the shape of a flesh golem. :D
Sarlax 07-27-07, 01:14 PM	Changlings cannot take the shape of a warforged any easier than they can look like a human in fullplate, inorganic materials just aren't possible. Why not? The ability keys off of Disguise Self, which clearly can produce the appearance of inorganic materials. Nothing in the changeling ability description changes that.
Rechan 07-27-07, 01:58 PM	The changeling ability functions as disguise self, meaning it functions like Disguise Self, (and looking different gives them a +10 bonus to the disguise skill). Just that minor shapechange is not an illusionary effect. It creates cosmetic physical changes. If a Changeling made its ears two feet wide, it would still not get any bonuses to listen. You can look like you have gills, but still cannot breathe water. So if a changeling tried to look like a Warforged, it could. Just that its skin would look like metal and wood, but would still bleed if you poked it with a needle. The plates would be made of flesh that just looked metallic.
JulesCARV 07-27-07, 02:18 PM	Then there's the changeling psion with racial emulation and the psychic reformation power, who can take different dragonmarks based on what's useful. He can have an authentic, functional Greater Mark of Making one day, then a Greater Mark of Handling the next. Although that might not be as useful as the changeling barbarian/warshaper type who take racial emulation and catfolk pounce. Maybe these ideas should go on the "Ideas to irritate Edymnion" thread, though.
The White Sorcerer 07-27-07, 02:37 PM	He can have an authentic, functional Greater Mark of Making one day, then a Greater Mark of Handling the next. Only if you're somehow related to both houses.
Darakhoranon 07-27-07, 04:42 PM	Maybe these ideas should go on the "Ideas to irritate Edymnion" thread, though. :schemes: Is there really a thread like that? If not, we should probably open it...
JulesCARV 07-27-07, 04:56 PM	The Ideas to irritate Edymnion (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=839282) thread was mainly active about two months ago.
Symar 07-27-07, 05:23 PM	Actually, minor shape change is based on an illusion spell, not a transmutation spell like the doppelganger change shape, so it does allow you to be a warforged. "For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature." Would be an interesting choice for a chameleon, I agree. Chameleon is only open to Humans and Doppelgangers though, so officially you'd only have access to the class in one of those forms. Of course, since changelings are basically a hybrid of the two, it makes sense to house rule them in. It says on the web site here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1 at the very bottom that changelings are allowed in the class.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-27-07, 06:21 PM	Personally, I would disallow anyone using a temporary ability to gain a feat, unless it fit very well with the character (say a changeling who has been disguised as an elf for most of his life). Primarily I'd allow it for feats and PrCs where the racial requirement seems social rather than genetic. I.E. I'd let them use Racial Emulation to enter the Arcane Archer or Dwarven Defender classes, or take special weapons feats that require a specific race. I wouldn't allow them to take Shifter feats for example. No extra shifter trait feat, razorclaw elite feat, or healing factor feat for you.