Optimizing Shifters: My take [Archive] - Wizards Community

Optimizing Shifters: My take [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kensan_Oni
03-15-07, 05:41 PM Thoughts on Shifters

Shifters are one of the most difficult races to play in Eberron. It's not because they are the most complex rules-wise or flavor-wise, but a lot of their abilities depend on feats. With no classes providing bonus Shifter feats, a shifter is left with the simple choice of either taking normal feats and abandoning their shifting ability, or taking shifter feats and abandoning improvement of their normal abilities. It's a tough choice.

It becomes obvious to me that Shifters, more then any other race ever design, beg to be multiclassed. Without multi-classing, I don't think you can ever realize the true potential of a Shifter. Using just the core Eberron books (Three Core, XPH, and the ECS), I am going to go over what I consider to be the ideal approach.

Concern One: Feats

Without class considerations, the Shifter gets 7 feats. Of these, 5 are needed to take what are typically all the feats that a Shifter will want, with the exception of the Longtooth and the Razorclaw, which will need 6 or 7. If you want more then one trait, also bump this number. All but two feats are destined to be used for Shifting Feats, then. The earliest that one can accomplish this is by 12th level.

The Big appeal in the Shifter feats is the Shifter Defense, which grants a DR 2/Silver. If one cares for nothing else, one can get the greater shifter defense in 4 feats.

The important thing to consider, though, is that each Shifter Feat that the shifter gets makes them stronger. They get to use their racial special ability longer, and eventually more times a day. While one could stop getting shifter feats by 9th level, you would want to keep getting them.

The major problem, though, is most shifter feats do not add to your combat effectiveness. Other characters are learning to do more damage, learning more weapons, and are doing things more stronger then you are. You have marvelous raw ability, but will be lagging behind others in reusable abilities. Your Razorclaw ability will run out of it's usefulness way before Power Attack and Rapid Shot will.

The solution is to choose a class with more feats. The more feats the class you are going into has, the better of your shifter will be.

Concern Two: Multiclassing

Okay, so you need to multiclass your shifter. Without multiclassing, you will not reach the full potential of the race. What to multiclass in though?

Ranger: The Favored Class offers a few benefits. As a starting class, it's downright descent, giving you many skill points. The class is worth hanging around till 2nd level in, as it grants you a combat style, a free feat that you do not have to qualify for. Therefore, as free levels, it pays to be at least a 2nd level Ranger. Staying around for another 4 levels might be worthwhile if you are planning on multiclassing into a spellcasting class. In either case, the Ranger does not provide enough feats to make up the gap, and you should consider moving on to another class.

Fighter: The Fighter will be essential to the development of the character. With two free feats in two levels, and another one by 4th level, the Fighter can not be ignored. No matter what other class you are going to be, you will want at least two levels of fighter if not more.

Psi-Warrior: The Psi-Warrior can provide an alternative for the Fighter, or can act in supplement. It, too, has the first two levels that are desperately needed for the Shifter to keep up in effectiveness overall.

Concern Three: Spellcasting

Overall, Shifters make poor spellcasters. With the demand on their feat pool that the Shifter Feats represent, other races will always be ahead of the Shifters in Metamagic and Item Creation feats, the core of what good spellcasters should have. Even the Psion is in need of their feats in order to do good. Still, shifter spellcasters are appealing. I recommend early deciding if you are going to spellcast, and what level spells you need. If you are going to go for 9th level spells, stick with being a Psion, a Druid, or a Wizard. These classes give you access to feats and abilities in supplement to leveling. Clerics and Sorcerer's do not have enough going for them on their own to consider classing into.

My Ideal:

Since I tend to play in a lot of mid-level games, I am thinking that an optimal build for a shifter just might end up being by 9th level a Ra2/Fi4/Ro3. The Rogue levels add a bit of tooth to your underdeveloped feats, and help balance out against other characters. The feat selection at 9th should be the Elite Feat of your Trait, Shifter Ferocity, Shifter Defense, Greater Shifter Defense, Two Weapon Fighting Style, Dodge, Mobility, and Weapon Focus (Weapon of Choice).

Or, I might consider playing a Ra2/Wiz5/ElK2. I'd keep the shifter feats above, switching out the other feats for Rapid Shot, Scibe Scroll, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Point Blank Shot. This will get me 9th level spells eventually.

Conclusion:

No matter how you personally choose to approach the shifter, remember that more then any other character race, the Shifter lives and dies by the feats it chooses. Plan ahead, and don't be afraid to multiclass, and you'll keep up with the rest of the party.
Dragom
03-15-07, 11:32 PM The Iconic shifter wizard in the ECS. I've thought about her quite a bit. I imagine after a few levels of Wizard she'll run out of bonus spells.

To get the most out of a very expensive intelligence bonus she might have to delve into Artificer. Yes that would mean getting Scribe Scroll twice, and it might not be the best idea to go past level 5 artificer as that's when the infusion ability starts to level off.

This does give a hefty amount of abilities beyond the racial, and does give a lot of precious item creation and possibly a metamagic feat or two.

It might mesh well with beasthide and cliffwalk.

Anyway, that's my thought. If only to throw out a non-mellee shifter.
neantollo
03-16-07, 11:18 AM Ranger 1 / Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Weretouched Master 4 is a great start for a melee shifter. Ranger 1 gets you track, which just screams shifter flavor, barbarian 2 gets you rage and uncanny dodge, and those two levels of fighter get the needed fighter feats, and WTM 4 is great for a shifter.

I'd do it this way:
1: Ranger 1: Track, good skill points (max jump and survival), Longtooth Shifter, 1st level feat (Healing Factor)
Barbarian 1: Rage (stacked with longtooth, you now have a +4 str while raging and shifting), +10 movement (which aids your jumping ability)
3: Barbarian 2: Uncanny Dodge, 3rd level feat (Longtooth Elite)
4: Fighter 1: (reflects contact with civilization), fighter feat (Power Attack)
5: Fighter 2: fighter feat (Leap Attack)
6: WTM 1: Weretouched 1 (Tiger), granting an additional +2 Str (+6 while shifting and raging), level 6 feat (extra trait: Beasthide)...this feat negates your rage AC penalty
7: WTM 2: Extra shifter feat (Beasthide elite)
8: WTM 3: Weretouched II (Pounce)
9: WTM 4: Frightful Shifting, Extra shifter feat (Shifter Defense), 9th level feat (Greater Shifter Defense)

You have 6 shifter feats at level nine, granting 3 shifts per day, at a duration equal to 9 +con modifier rounds. With max ranks in jump, your power attack + leap attack combo is brutal, and you can pounce with it after a charge. Pounce gets you a full attack, which adds your con-draining bite attack in. In addtion, you have +4 AC while shifting, and DR 4 / silver, and you heal 9 points after each shift.

From there, you can go a number of ways; 10 levels of another PrC, continue as a ranger, etc.
Pinky's brain
03-16-07, 12:28 PM Shifters get pigeonholed into weretouched master (tiger) if they want to use their shifting often ... there is just no other way which isn't hugely suboptimal. To shift often you need shifter feats, to make shifter feats worth it your shifting has to be really good ... the only way to make shifting really good is weretouched master (tiger).
Nerdicus
03-16-07, 03:20 PM I think your thoughts on shifters needing to multiclass are bang on, I'm surprised there isn't any mention of the Monk class in there though.. The monk has tons of bonus feats and special abilities and focusses on using natural weapons.

Just a thought.
neantollo
03-17-07, 07:49 AM Shifters work pretty well when you take levels in a class that does not require a heavy feat investment; especially if it has some melee equivelant. While shifter mages and psions are not optimal, shifting certainly has its uses for a rogue, ranger, monk, beguiler, ToB classes (especially due to the Bloodclaw Master), and lots of others.
DarthDave
03-19-07, 07:57 PM I'll suggest the optimal use of the Scout class- even Scout 20, because of their extra feats. Not as combative as a fighter, but many combat-related feats are available for a scout.
korcheck
03-19-07, 11:41 PM the best way for a shifter to go as a spellcaster is as a druid. my take with the shifter i am currently playing was:
dreamsite/longtooth druid 8 moonspeaker 3 with the druid race substitution levels
feats: dreamsite elite, healing factor, extra shifter trait(which means when i hit 17 i will have 3 shifter traits), and shifter defence.
with all of this i can shift 8 times/day for 14 rounds ea. while shifted i have a +2 to wis and currently a +4 to either str, dex, or con my choice each day or with a minutes prep i can switch the bonus (which i get even while not shifting) and with my gloves of dex +2 i have I am basically an ability monster. also the 27 AC is nice. THAT is how you make a shifter spell caster.
Werebat
03-20-07, 02:21 AM Shifters get pigeonholed into weretouched master (tiger) if they want to use their shifting often ... there is just no other way which isn't hugely suboptimal. To shift often you need shifter feats, to make shifter feats worth it your shifting has to be really good ... the only way to make shifting really good is weretouched master (tiger).

You've pointed this out to me before and I'm afraid it's true. This is after spending lots of time trying really hard to make something decent out of a Swiftwing... You're better off just asking the DM if you can pay +1 LA to get a flying shifter and then going tiger WTM from there.

- Ron ^*^
hobbit_killer
03-20-07, 08:14 PM Has anyone looked into black blood cultist and adapting it to shifters? This to me screams as the ideal class to use as a model if one were to embrace their shifter heritage. The one in Champions of Ruin is perfect for a bear focused shifter.

Drop the improved unarmed strike requirement and the alignment requirement. Add a requirment of improved grapple, improved trip, blind fight, powerful charge, strong stomach or some kind of poison save feat, toughness, or spring attack depending on path chosen

Change the rage requirement to shifting.

1st Feral rage claws changes to extra shifter trait: longtooth or gorebrute, remove DR
2nd: improved grapple changes to what your weretouched III ability would be.
3rd: feral rage bite changes to extra shifter trait: razorclaw
4th change DR to shifter defense
6th: changes to great rend
7th: improved natural attack for one natural attack only
8th: improved weretouched III
9th change DR to greater shifter defense

All other abilities remain the same. The extra shifter traits count as shifter feats but you can still choose the feat as one of your allotted feats

weretouched III abilities
improved grab--needs improved grapple
pounce--needs spring attack
trip---needs improved trip
blindsense 60'---needs blind fight
gore can be used as a normal natural weapon--needs powerful charge
disease on natural attacks as a dire rat but triggers like contagion save=10+class level+con mod--needs strong stomach
rage as the weretouched III ability--requires toughness

improved weretouched III
savage grapple--as savage grapple of black blood cultist
savage trip--same as above but triggers on the attack made with improved trip
rake
longtooth elite+ wounding ability of bat swarm
charges with gore x2 damage (as if you were mounted with a lance with no reach)
disease can be used on weapon attacks
rage bonuses go to +4 str and +4 con

More powerful than the current weretouched master, but its 10 levels and the requirments are a little heftier. Requirements for pounce based shifter even heftier to bring it down to a level witht he other choices. This would be a replacement to weretouched master.

Anyway, its an idea I have been kicking around.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-20-07, 10:42 PM If you're concerned about feat conservation, Warblade/Bloodclaw Master (Tome of Battle) is an excellent route to take. Bloodclaw Master was designed to work with shifters in particular. It spells out specific benefits for them, which include increases to shifting frequency and duration, thus taking some of the pressure off of feats to accomplish this. Warblade provides some bonus feats in its own right, and the maneuvers you gain can replace many of the combat-oriented feats in the PHB.
Moosh Nailo
03-21-07, 06:10 PM Has anyone else thought of changing the bonus shifting due to feats to 1/day/feat, rather than 1/day/2 feats? Would that be enough to fix it up, or at least moderate it?

Just thinking out loud.
neantollo
03-22-07, 02:13 PM I really like the idea that someone detailed around here a while back (Save vs. DM maybe?) in which you simply expand the number of feats labeled as "shifter" feats. Feats that fit the archetypal shifter could be considered as such. Track, Athletic, the Dodge chain, Power Attack, etc could be shifter feats. That way, non-melee types can take feats that help their class and still gain the bonus shifter feat modifiers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kensan_Oni 03-15-07, 05:41 PM	Thoughts on Shifters Shifters are one of the most difficult races to play in Eberron. It's not because they are the most complex rules-wise or flavor-wise, but a lot of their abilities depend on feats. With no classes providing bonus Shifter feats, a shifter is left with the simple choice of either taking normal feats and abandoning their shifting ability, or taking shifter feats and abandoning improvement of their normal abilities. It's a tough choice. It becomes obvious to me that Shifters, more then any other race ever design, beg to be multiclassed. Without multi-classing, I don't think you can ever realize the true potential of a Shifter. Using just the core Eberron books (Three Core, XPH, and the ECS), I am going to go over what I consider to be the ideal approach. Concern One: Feats Without class considerations, the Shifter gets 7 feats. Of these, 5 are needed to take what are typically all the feats that a Shifter will want, with the exception of the Longtooth and the Razorclaw, which will need 6 or 7. If you want more then one trait, also bump this number. All but two feats are destined to be used for Shifting Feats, then. The earliest that one can accomplish this is by 12th level. The Big appeal in the Shifter feats is the Shifter Defense, which grants a DR 2/Silver. If one cares for nothing else, one can get the greater shifter defense in 4 feats. The important thing to consider, though, is that each Shifter Feat that the shifter gets makes them stronger. They get to use their racial special ability longer, and eventually more times a day. While one could stop getting shifter feats by 9th level, you would want to keep getting them. The major problem, though, is most shifter feats do not add to your combat effectiveness. Other characters are learning to do more damage, learning more weapons, and are doing things more stronger then you are. You have marvelous raw ability, but will be lagging behind others in reusable abilities. Your Razorclaw ability will run out of it's usefulness way before Power Attack and Rapid Shot will. The solution is to choose a class with more feats. The more feats the class you are going into has, the better of your shifter will be. Concern Two: Multiclassing Okay, so you need to multiclass your shifter. Without multiclassing, you will not reach the full potential of the race. What to multiclass in though? Ranger: The Favored Class offers a few benefits. As a starting class, it's downright descent, giving you many skill points. The class is worth hanging around till 2nd level in, as it grants you a combat style, a free feat that you do not have to qualify for. Therefore, as free levels, it pays to be at least a 2nd level Ranger. Staying around for another 4 levels might be worthwhile if you are planning on multiclassing into a spellcasting class. In either case, the Ranger does not provide enough feats to make up the gap, and you should consider moving on to another class. Fighter: The Fighter will be essential to the development of the character. With two free feats in two levels, and another one by 4th level, the Fighter can not be ignored. No matter what other class you are going to be, you will want at least two levels of fighter if not more. Psi-Warrior: The Psi-Warrior can provide an alternative for the Fighter, or can act in supplement. It, too, has the first two levels that are desperately needed for the Shifter to keep up in effectiveness overall. Concern Three: Spellcasting Overall, Shifters make poor spellcasters. With the demand on their feat pool that the Shifter Feats represent, other races will always be ahead of the Shifters in Metamagic and Item Creation feats, the core of what good spellcasters should have. Even the Psion is in need of their feats in order to do good. Still, shifter spellcasters are appealing. I recommend early deciding if you are going to spellcast, and what level spells you need. If you are going to go for 9th level spells, stick with being a Psion, a Druid, or a Wizard. These classes give you access to feats and abilities in supplement to leveling. Clerics and Sorcerer's do not have enough going for them on their own to consider classing into. My Ideal: Since I tend to play in a lot of mid-level games, I am thinking that an optimal build for a shifter just might end up being by 9th level a Ra2/Fi4/Ro3. The Rogue levels add a bit of tooth to your underdeveloped feats, and help balance out against other characters. The feat selection at 9th should be the Elite Feat of your Trait, Shifter Ferocity, Shifter Defense, Greater Shifter Defense, Two Weapon Fighting Style, Dodge, Mobility, and Weapon Focus (Weapon of Choice). Or, I might consider playing a Ra2/Wiz5/ElK2. I'd keep the shifter feats above, switching out the other feats for Rapid Shot, Scibe Scroll, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Point Blank Shot. This will get me 9th level spells eventually. Conclusion: No matter how you personally choose to approach the shifter, remember that more then any other character race, the Shifter lives and dies by the feats it chooses. Plan ahead, and don't be afraid to multiclass, and you'll keep up with the rest of the party.
Dragom 03-15-07, 11:32 PM	The Iconic shifter wizard in the ECS. I've thought about her quite a bit. I imagine after a few levels of Wizard she'll run out of bonus spells. To get the most out of a very expensive intelligence bonus she might have to delve into Artificer. Yes that would mean getting Scribe Scroll twice, and it might not be the best idea to go past level 5 artificer as that's when the infusion ability starts to level off. This does give a hefty amount of abilities beyond the racial, and does give a lot of precious item creation and possibly a metamagic feat or two. It might mesh well with beasthide and cliffwalk. Anyway, that's my thought. If only to throw out a non-mellee shifter.
neantollo 03-16-07, 11:18 AM	Ranger 1 / Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Weretouched Master 4 is a great start for a melee shifter. Ranger 1 gets you track, which just screams shifter flavor, barbarian 2 gets you rage and uncanny dodge, and those two levels of fighter get the needed fighter feats, and WTM 4 is great for a shifter. I'd do it this way: 1: Ranger 1: Track, good skill points (max jump and survival), Longtooth Shifter, 1st level feat (Healing Factor) Barbarian 1: Rage (stacked with longtooth, you now have a +4 str while raging and shifting), +10 movement (which aids your jumping ability) 3: Barbarian 2: Uncanny Dodge, 3rd level feat (Longtooth Elite) 4: Fighter 1: (reflects contact with civilization), fighter feat (Power Attack) 5: Fighter 2: fighter feat (Leap Attack) 6: WTM 1: Weretouched 1 (Tiger), granting an additional +2 Str (+6 while shifting and raging), level 6 feat (extra trait: Beasthide)...this feat negates your rage AC penalty 7: WTM 2: Extra shifter feat (Beasthide elite) 8: WTM 3: Weretouched II (Pounce) 9: WTM 4: Frightful Shifting, Extra shifter feat (Shifter Defense), 9th level feat (Greater Shifter Defense) You have 6 shifter feats at level nine, granting 3 shifts per day, at a duration equal to 9 +con modifier rounds. With max ranks in jump, your power attack + leap attack combo is brutal, and you can pounce with it after a charge. Pounce gets you a full attack, which adds your con-draining bite attack in. In addtion, you have +4 AC while shifting, and DR 4 / silver, and you heal 9 points after each shift. From there, you can go a number of ways; 10 levels of another PrC, continue as a ranger, etc.
Pinky's brain 03-16-07, 12:28 PM	Shifters get pigeonholed into weretouched master (tiger) if they want to use their shifting often ... there is just no other way which isn't hugely suboptimal. To shift often you need shifter feats, to make shifter feats worth it your shifting has to be really good ... the only way to make shifting really good is weretouched master (tiger).
Nerdicus 03-16-07, 03:20 PM	I think your thoughts on shifters needing to multiclass are bang on, I'm surprised there isn't any mention of the Monk class in there though.. The monk has tons of bonus feats and special abilities and focusses on using natural weapons. Just a thought.
neantollo 03-17-07, 07:49 AM	Shifters work pretty well when you take levels in a class that does not require a heavy feat investment; especially if it has some melee equivelant. While shifter mages and psions are not optimal, shifting certainly has its uses for a rogue, ranger, monk, beguiler, ToB classes (especially due to the Bloodclaw Master), and lots of others.
DarthDave 03-19-07, 07:57 PM	I'll suggest the optimal use of the Scout class- even Scout 20, because of their extra feats. Not as combative as a fighter, but many combat-related feats are available for a scout.
korcheck 03-19-07, 11:41 PM	the best way for a shifter to go as a spellcaster is as a druid. my take with the shifter i am currently playing was: dreamsite/longtooth druid 8 moonspeaker 3 with the druid race substitution levels feats: dreamsite elite, healing factor, extra shifter trait(which means when i hit 17 i will have 3 shifter traits), and shifter defence. with all of this i can shift 8 times/day for 14 rounds ea. while shifted i have a +2 to wis and currently a +4 to either str, dex, or con my choice each day or with a minutes prep i can switch the bonus (which i get even while not shifting) and with my gloves of dex +2 i have I am basically an ability monster. also the 27 AC is nice. THAT is how you make a shifter spell caster.
Werebat 03-20-07, 02:21 AM	Shifters get pigeonholed into weretouched master (tiger) if they want to use their shifting often ... there is just no other way which isn't hugely suboptimal. To shift often you need shifter feats, to make shifter feats worth it your shifting has to be really good ... the only way to make shifting really good is weretouched master (tiger). You've pointed this out to me before and I'm afraid it's true. This is after spending lots of time trying really hard to make something decent out of a Swiftwing... You're better off just asking the DM if you can pay +1 LA to get a flying shifter and then going tiger WTM from there. - Ron ^*^
hobbit_killer 03-20-07, 08:14 PM	Has anyone looked into black blood cultist and adapting it to shifters? This to me screams as the ideal class to use as a model if one were to embrace their shifter heritage. The one in Champions of Ruin is perfect for a bear focused shifter. Drop the improved unarmed strike requirement and the alignment requirement. Add a requirment of improved grapple, improved trip, blind fight, powerful charge, strong stomach or some kind of poison save feat, toughness, or spring attack depending on path chosen Change the rage requirement to shifting. 1st Feral rage claws changes to extra shifter trait: longtooth or gorebrute, remove DR 2nd: improved grapple changes to what your weretouched III ability would be. 3rd: feral rage bite changes to extra shifter trait: razorclaw 4th change DR to shifter defense 6th: changes to great rend 7th: improved natural attack for one natural attack only 8th: improved weretouched III 9th change DR to greater shifter defense All other abilities remain the same. The extra shifter traits count as shifter feats but you can still choose the feat as one of your allotted feats weretouched III abilities improved grab--needs improved grapple pounce--needs spring attack trip---needs improved trip blindsense 60'---needs blind fight gore can be used as a normal natural weapon--needs powerful charge disease on natural attacks as a dire rat but triggers like contagion save=10+class level+con mod--needs strong stomach rage as the weretouched III ability--requires toughness improved weretouched III savage grapple--as savage grapple of black blood cultist savage trip--same as above but triggers on the attack made with improved trip rake longtooth elite+ wounding ability of bat swarm charges with gore x2 damage (as if you were mounted with a lance with no reach) disease can be used on weapon attacks rage bonuses go to +4 str and +4 con More powerful than the current weretouched master, but its 10 levels and the requirments are a little heftier. Requirements for pounce based shifter even heftier to bring it down to a level witht he other choices. This would be a replacement to weretouched master. Anyway, its an idea I have been kicking around.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-20-07, 10:42 PM	If you're concerned about feat conservation, Warblade/Bloodclaw Master (Tome of Battle) is an excellent route to take. Bloodclaw Master was designed to work with shifters in particular. It spells out specific benefits for them, which include increases to shifting frequency and duration, thus taking some of the pressure off of feats to accomplish this. Warblade provides some bonus feats in its own right, and the maneuvers you gain can replace many of the combat-oriented feats in the PHB.
Moosh Nailo 03-21-07, 06:10 PM	Has anyone else thought of changing the bonus shifting due to feats to 1/day/feat, rather than 1/day/2 feats? Would that be enough to fix it up, or at least moderate it? Just thinking out loud.
neantollo 03-22-07, 02:13 PM	I really like the idea that someone detailed around here a while back (Save vs. DM maybe?) in which you simply expand the number of feats labeled as "shifter" feats. Feats that fit the archetypal shifter could be considered as such. Track, Athletic, the Dodge chain, Power Attack, etc could be shifter feats. That way, non-melee types can take feats that help their class and still gain the bonus shifter feat modifiers.