Post/Author/DateTime	Post
krlsrrll 05-12-07, 04:52 PM	Hi all I'm starting up a casual, mercenary based campaign in Drooam and someone has raised the option of playing a Ninja. I'm a bit cautious not because I don't like oriental but just not sure how that sorta character would fit in. Anyone have any thoughts/experience of oriental characters in Eberron? He's using the class from 'Complete Adventurer' and from I've seen it looks ok. Thanks in advance.
UnderworldLord 05-12-07, 06:06 PM	I believe its been discussed on these boards that the goblins and the house of shadows where the ones who used ninjutsu. Don't quote me on which is the originator though, as both would likely argue as being 'the original'.
Ardent 05-12-07, 06:10 PM	If you're uncomfortable with letting him play as the core class, ask him to consider Rogue or Ranger and a Prestige Class when the time comes. But there are ninja-type archetypes in Eberron, both the Houses of the Mark of Shadow and the goblins have histories that include that archetype.
Edymnion 05-12-07, 06:45 PM	Oriental Ninja, no. There is no orient in Eberron. IMO, if they want the ninja mechanics, they are free to use them, but they aren't going to be the cliche 70's bad martial arts movie ninja. You would have to strip every bit of oriental flavor out of the class, and rebuild it from the ground up with something more fitting to the setting. I could see a stealthy assassin type character coming from House Thuranni, for example.
Rerecros 05-12-07, 07:37 PM	Oriental Ninja, no. There is no orient in Eberron. Ever hear of Sarlona ;) I can very easily see a human/kalashtar/inspired ninja coming from sarlona. He could be a stealthy Kalashtar ninja (as opposed to monk), taking out agents of the dreaming dark. He could be a human or even an inspired agent of the reidian empire. I thought about making a kalashar ninja once, in exhange for extra psi powers every level, they gain an extra ki points at every third level plus the first. I also can see a paticular clan of goblins headed by a Daimyo, the specifics of the Dakaani empire were left blank, so why not fill it with oriental flavor, and have a several thousand year old goblin ninja clan that has been manipulating the humans of khoarvaire since they landed.
Edymnion 05-12-07, 07:50 PM	Ever hear of Sarlona ;)Yup, but I wouldn't call it oriental.
UnderworldLord 05-12-07, 08:11 PM	Sarlona isn't the orient. I don't see oriental people in Sarlona, I see mind controlled people who can't tell their thoughts from that of a nightmare incarnate. I see psions, not samurai. Speaking of which, oriental aspects in general have been dispersed through Eberron. Samurais, which I mentioned earlier, have been shoe-horned over to the Mror Holds and Hobgoblins, for example. I believe Players Handbook to Eberron holds the answers to which you seek, for that.
Edymnion 05-12-07, 08:29 PM	Speaking of which, oriental aspects in general have been dispersed through Eberron. Samurais, which I mentioned earlier, have been shoe-horned over to the Mror Holds and Hobgoblins, for example. I believe Players Handbook to Eberron holds the answers to which you seek, for that.Wait, did you forget to cover the sidebars in your PGtE in black ink, then whiteout, and the a layer of duct tape to ensure that the garbage contained in them couldn't get out? Yeah, you need to go do that now.
Xanic_Indus 05-12-07, 08:30 PM	The Players Guide to Eberron denotes to refer to the Ninja given in the Complete "..." series.
UnderworldLord 05-12-07, 09:59 PM	Actually, I like some of those sidebars. But only some. Remember Edy, some of us actually do like what you consider garbage. Races of Eberron I also like, fluffically as well as some of its crunch. EDIT: I'm not a hundred percent sure it was you that disliked RoE, but I'm still gonna put that up there as something some people consider crap, but I still do like. Granted that I take it with a grain of salt, lime, and tequila, which makes some of it easier to handle.
Hideous Phidias 05-13-07, 12:18 AM	PGE pg 81 The shaarat'khesh goblins have a claimed that their nija tradation dates back to the Dhakaany Empire. I think that an elf with the mark of shadow would not be found in Drooam but the idea is not a bad one. Your player could simple have joined the band of mercenaries to maybe kill someone in Drooam like Zaeurl Leader of the Dark Pack or Mordain the Fleshweaver. Or as an elf they could simply looking for glory by killing the famus Fire giant Gorodan Ashlord.
KidChainsaw 05-13-07, 01:19 AM	Are we talking about the ninja class as described in Complete Adventurer or are we talking about the spies and "special forces" of midieval Japan? I haven't seen anything that resembles midieval Japan that closely in Eberrron (see the Dhakaani more like Klingons than samurai) and Sarlona has more of a wuxia/anime flavor than anything historical. But the ninja class could be... a.-a Thuranni/Phaerlan problem "eliminator" b.-clan of goblin scouts and assasins (like in PGtE) c.-low ranking soldier in an assassin's guild (think sneaky thug) d.-a "special forces" soldier left over from the Last War f.-anything sneaky and generally more violent than a rogue g.-or just a rogue for players that are sneak attack happy you get the idea....
krlsrrll 05-13-07, 02:21 AM	Well, I've been away from the Eberron boards for a while but glad to see such a varied array of responses in just 1 evening .... and to think I wasted my time laughing at 'Eurovision' instead :) Seriously though, there is some good information there so think I will be going with the Complete Adventurer type Ninja but water down the 'Oriental Aspect' so to speak. Think if it's restrict to one of the weaker humanoid races like goblin etc then it can be viewed as an indirect fighter, someone who likes the thrill of the kill but without the full frontal approach. Think I might have a bit of 'Ancient Clan of the Shadow' type of thing too as background that the player knows a little off from his teacher but has not been initiated as he's 'off the beaten track' in Drooam. Thanks alot, will start writing a few things down today :D
UnderworldLord 05-13-07, 12:23 PM	Oriental aspect? I usually throw that out the door when I step into Eberron. Just like I throw out 'western', 'European', and any other cultural aspect as we know it. Or at least, thats what I strive to do.
krlsrrll 05-14-07, 02:09 AM	Wee the 1st game was run last night and the introduction of the Ninja. Aside from sarcastic comments about 1 player being allowed to play an oriental character when I had specifically said no before hand he fitted in fine. Have gone for the elven ninja in the end with Dragonmark of Shadow too. I know logistically thats not really allowed as he's not part of the house but have always used rule as a guideline rather than set in stone :) Question though, with me using the ninja as a sort of 'secret society' and integrating the Dragonmark already I was thinking of having ninjas a specific class to house Thuranni but with my knowledge of the houses being quite basic (been about 6 months since I've even looked at a source book) does this sound feasible? I've done a few short-lived campaigns in Eberron and not really touched on the houses but thought this could be a good introduction. Is there a more detailed source of information on the houses aside from the basic rulebook? I have the campaign setting and five nations but that aside the rest of the source i used is standard D20. Thanks in advance.
Rerecros 05-14-07, 03:11 AM	Dragonmarked is probably what you looking for. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/eberron/953807200 But I don't see why you have any problem, this sounds entirely feasible. Infact I'd say the Preformer/Espionage style of house Thuranni meshes well with the ninja class. There is no evidence that historical ninja limited themselves to all-black suits. In modern times, camouflage based upon dark colors such as dark red and dark blue can be used to give better concealment at night. Some ninja may have worn the same armor or clothing as samurai or Japanese peasants. In addition, many American ninja, such as the master Scott Turbeville, have even been known to favor all-white suits. The stereotypical ninja that continually wears easily identifiable black outfits (shinobi shozoku) comes from the Kabuki theater. [2] Prop handlers would dress in black and move props around on the stage. The audience would obviously see the prop handlers, but would pretend they were invisible. Building on that willing suspension of disbelief, ninja characters also came to be portrayed in the theater as wearing similar all-black suits. This either implied to the audience that the ninja were also invisible, or simply made the audience unable to tell a ninja character from Ronni many prop handlers until the ninja character distinguished himself from the other stagehands with a scripted attack or assassination.
Alex_ 05-14-07, 05:42 PM	The Dhakaani Goblinoids have a clan of assassins known as the Sharrat Khesh (Silent Blades). They have communities of cross class monk/rogues who maintain a strong alignment of neutrality and are used as agents by the other Dhakaani clans as spies and assassins against one another. To me, if anything fits the idea of the stereotypical pajama wearing, wall running, poison using ninja, it'd be them.
AkumaDaimyo 05-22-07, 02:04 AM	You need to pick up players guide to Eberron. It says what Ninja are used for and who has them in it. There is no asian aspect to it at all. You need to get around that and be more imaginative. They have the skills but they probably aren't called Ninja and they don't run around in all black with ninja swords and such. But House Phirlan has them as do the goblin empire people. It also DOES say that other people could have them as the secret has gotten out about the training. Just that it originated with the Mark of Shadow. Just avoid making him asian and it fits how Eberron Ninja are. I'd just treat him maybe like a Rogue but he'd probably be working for a house wheras rogues are more able to be freelancers. That might help a bit. A Ninja with no employer/house is probably going to be hunted or kept a close eye on with his/her abilities.
krlsrrll 05-22-07, 05:26 AM	A Ninja with no employer/house is probably going to be hunted or kept a close eye on with his/her abilities. That is the exact route I've gone for, and the player likes the idea too luckily :) He is elven and based in Droaam to be away from his house. He is being taught privately and secretively and I was looking at expanding the storyline in the future so that as their mercenary group becomes more prominent then word of his skills will get out and 'contact' will be made from the more established groups. As to how he is playing the character, he is playing it as a rogue/assassin type character who is testing his skills against foes. The reason he has the skills is to try and be the best there is and therefore is always seeking to excel himself.
AkumaDaimyo 05-22-07, 03:18 PM	I don't think Ninja are called Ninja at all in Eberron. I think they are more viewed as stealthy individuals like Rogues but with some kinda of mystic quality. They are probably just called assassins or something. In Eberron it seems your more labeled by what you do rather than your class depending on what your class is anyway. Your idea sounds best. A rogue is a skilled individual but a ninja could and probably would be seen as more deadly and specialized with their ability to turn invisible and such. I've been trying to think up some Ninja NPC types who serve government agencies, not just houses. I know a Teifling or Catfolk would make a great Ninja but that sounds kinda wank, I mean why not just a normal race? I liked the idea of Guile, the Warforged Ninja but his stats really suck! That and with a name like Guile we expect him to have a brush like head and yell "SONIC BOOM!" :P
ArcTan 05-23-07, 12:06 AM	Oriental Ninja, no. There is no orient in Eberron. IMO, if they want the ninja mechanics, they are free to use them, but they aren't going to be the cliche 70's bad martial arts movie ninja. You would have to strip every bit of oriental flavor out of the class, and rebuild it from the ground up with something more fitting to the setting. I don't see that you *have* to. Using Japanese terms for martial arts and such doesn't mean that you're bringing "Japan" into Eberron, any more than using terms from the Catholic Church for ranks in the Silver Flame or, hell, using terms from French weapons schools for polearms (bec-de-corbin and such) means you're bringing the Papal States or France into Eberron. If he likes using Japanese names for things, let him. Say that "Japanese" names are how you're "translating" the language of the elves or the goblinoids, just as English is how you "translate" the Common tongue (since the Five Nations of Khorvaire are hardly likely to speak the same language as people from the British Isles of Earth). I mean, if you really really don't like "Oriental" flavor, then feel free to disallow it, but I don't see that "Oriental" flavor -- i.e. calling things "samurai" and "ninja" and "bushido" -- automatically destroys the fantasy feel of Eberron, any more than the implicitly Eurocentric use of terms like "knights" and "clerics" and "chivalry" and "liege lords" destroys the fantasy feel of Eberron by making it identical to medieval Europe. Someone posted a more impressive rant along these lines before, but in general it's implicitly racist and Eurocentric to act like the word "knight" is somehow "neutral" in a way that the word "samurai" isn't, when both are rooted in certain cultures, and which one an individual person might find to be the most useful term for a fantasy concept depends on their preferences and their cultural background. There isn't -- or, at least, ought not be -- anything specifically "Oriental" about saying that the individual military-political leaders of the Karrnathi feudal system are called "daimyo" rather than "lords", of saying that the stealthy contract killers of House Thuranni call themselves "ninja" (a Japanese term) rather than "assassins" (an Arabic term, originally, and originally far more specific than "ninja"), of saying that the "emperor" of Galifar was more akin to a "huangti" than he was to an "imperator", etc. If you want to call a particular class of highly trained warriors devoted to their feudal lords "samurai", go ahead. It's not mixing up terminology any more than it already has been mixed up. You've already got the demonic beings of the world referred to as "rakshasa", something in real life very firmly tied to the Hindu religion (and we even call the rulers of the "rakshasa" the "rajahs", another nod to India). We have monks who are very clearly based on stereotyped Asian martal arts traditions, right down to manipulating a force called "ki". We have pictures of orcs working in rice paddies wearing conical straw hats. Flavor can be borrowed from Asian cultures and *has* been borrowed from Asian cultures just as much as it's been borrowed from the stereotypical generic medieval Europe that fantasy is "supposed" to be based on.
ArcTan 05-23-07, 12:36 AM	You need to pick up players guide to Eberron. It says what Ninja are used for and who has them in it. There is no asian aspect to it at all. Well, in that Asia doesn't actually exist in Eberron, sure. But for *flavor*, I don't see why they *can't* be Asian, although if you don't want them to be, fair enough. However, if you're okay with making a Paladin of the Silver Flame look like a picture-perfect stereotype of a stereotypical High Middle Ages Frankish Knight, then I don't see what's wrong with taking the stereotyped Eastern martial arts as a basis for a certain kind of warrior or spy. You need to get around that and be more imaginative. They have the skills but they probably aren't called Ninja and they don't run around in all black with ninja swords and such. Well, real ninja didn't, either -- except in certain situations when it may have suited them to do so, just as it may suit the sharaat'kesh or Phiarlan/Thuranni operatives to do so when needs must. (It's a fantasy game, after all. What are your creepy stealthy assassins going to do if *not* cling to walls in black clothes and pop out of nowhere with swift and deadly blades?) Again, I see no reason not to call them "ninja". Of course, in-character, characters don't necessarily refer to themselves by the name of their class -- most Fighters don't use the word "fighter" -- but there's no reason *not* to, if that's what you want. (I mean, I think the Complete Adventurer ninja is kind of a silly class, but if I *wanted* to use it for a ninja-type flavor, I don't see why I shouldn't call it a ninja.) Similarly, I don't see any reason not to play an optimized Rogue/Assassin multiclass character but call it a "ninja" because you want it to be a ninja. And, again, there is absolutely zero reason that the word "ninja" is inappropriate in a fantasy game, if words like "knight" and "paladin" are allowed. But House Phirlan has them as do the goblin empire people. It also DOES say that other people could have them as the secret has gotten out about the training. Just that it originated with the Mark of Shadow. Just avoid making him asian and it fits how Eberron Ninja are. Again, why *shouldn't* he be Asian? I mean, everyone seems to assume that the Five Nations are going to be "European-looking" by default, and, honestly, that's *fine*. I have no problem with that. For the target audience of most Eberron products, "European-looking" is "home" -- it's the natural thing you expect when you play a fantasy game, it's familiar, it's safe ground. There is absolutely zero reason why in this fantasy world the human nations *have* to resemble Renaissance Europe and not, say, Song Dynasty China, or Japan on the eve of the Meiji Reformation, or the Muslim sultanates of India, or the Ashanti Confederacy in West Africa -- all of which are quite colorful, rich wells from which to draw flavor for a "warring brother nations in a tense period of peace and economic growth" kind of scenario that the Five Nations represent in Eberron. (Note that, in many of these scenarios, it makes more sense for the West to play the part of Sarlona -- the mysterious Other with gifts of technology and culture to give with a perilous price -- and categorizing Sarlona as the "Orient" actually doesn't make much sense if it's Renaissance Europe we're talking about.) However, it's *good* for the Five Nations to resemble medieval/Renaissance Europe, because the important thing about the setting is that it be understandable and easy to use for the real, human players who are playing it, and therefore things should roughly fit their cultural expectations. Most people who buy and play D&D think "vaguely European" when they think "normal" or "home", especially in the context of D&D fantasy, so Five Nations = Europe it is. But *along those same lines*, people want and need something to latch onto to make sense of the "Other", the foreign, and since we're not that good at thinking up *truly* alien things without at least unconsciously starting to compare those alien things with things we find alien in real life, it makes sense to let Sarlona = something if we're going to give in to the impulse to make Five Nations = Europe. And *why not* say that various things remind us of the "Orient" if we want to? It's the exact same reasoning process as drawing on all that sword & sorcery imagery for the Five Nations -- that generations and generations of cultural resonance has built up over certain things like armored men on horseback or tonsured monks clutching holy symbols or big round domes in which berobed legislators debate policy, and we might as well use those resonances instead of struggle against them. The exact same is true of the Orient, and the way the Orient has implicitly stood for "Other, alien, mysterious, strange" in Western culture for centuries. If you want a mysterious stranger from a culture foreign to you who uses martial arts you don't understand to attack with immense grace and stealth, then, like it or not, that person is going to start to take the shape and name "ninja" in people's minds. Just as a horde of mounted archers who batter against the walls of civilization are going to adopt the guise of "the Huns" and a harshly disciplined warrior from a foreign culture who rejects your ways and adheres to a code of honor that seems bizarre and alien to you will take on the guise of "samurai". (For all people say theDhakaani are "Klingons, not samurai", it's fairly obvious that the TNG-era Klingons *are* samurai, or at least started with "samurai" as a guiding principle.) Of course they aren't going to be samurai in *detail*, and making them follow bushido in strict detail or giving them all the stereotypical trappings (the daisho, the yumi-ya, etc.) would be dumb. But it's just as dumb to say that because we call Jaela Daran a "pontiff", the Church of the Silver Flame must actually be identical to the Roman Catholic Church in every respect, or that because we call the holy warriors of the Silver Flame "paladins" they must follow in every respect the legends of the knights of Roland. I think it's possible to use names to evoke the images we're conditioned to see from them without making them act out every nuance of a cliche when we do so -- much of fantasy is based on this idea. So yes, I see no reason why a Thuranni operative couldn't be called a "ninja". He has martial skills far beyond that of the average Khorvairian human, based on a martial tradition alien to the Five Nations, focused around invisibility and guile; he comes from a culture and tradition millennia older than the Five Nations that speaks a different language and does things in a different style (one that often seems self-consciously more complex, refined, and "civilized" than that of the human Five Nations), and even his physical appearance is one the average Khorvairian human finds strange, if with an exotic allure; and the role he serves is in every way analogous to that of the ninja in legend and myth (if not the cold facts of real history), right down to the aura of prestige and terror that surrounds his job and the myths about his magical abilities that he probably encourages when they're useful to him. The exact same argument could be made for the sharaat'kesh goblins, although there the threatening, dark, "yellow peril" side of Orientalism -- the Fu Manchu stereotype -- is going to be clearer than the more neutral, possibly alluring figure of the elven assassin. Essentially the same concept, though -- and what D&D does with goblinoids vs. elves is basically taking the same kind of alienness only replacing "alien and alluring" with "alien and menacing", i.e. what Western culture does with "good Orientals" and "bad Orientals" (and Eberron's treatment of the Valenar and the Dhakaani brings the two far closer together than they are in core D&D).
ArcTan 05-23-07, 12:46 AM	I don't think Ninja are called Ninja at all in Eberron. I think they are more viewed as stealthy individuals like Rogues but with some kinda of mystic quality. They are probably just called assassins or something. "Stealthy individuals like Rogues but with some kind of mystic quality" is, in fact, the definition of the word "ninja". The definition of the word "ninja" also implies that they come from Japan, but they clearly don't actually have to, given the many pop-cultural "ninja" who have nothing to do with historical Japan. "Assassin" is also a word that works, but "assassin", in our language, has the specific implication that said stealthy-mystic-dude kills important people for money, which can be a problematic association to have. Notice, for instance, that the D&D PrC called "Assassin" has lots of abilities that are basically all about killing a specific target really hard really fast, while the D&D base class "Ninja" has abilities that are more geared toward being able to zip in and out of whatever place you want to go in highly stealthy-mystic ways, and that those are two very different kinds of characters. Note, also, that the word "assassin" is *also* a word taken from a specific culture for a much broader purpose -- in this case, "assassins" were originally members of a specific religious cult that acted as a rebel movement against the Abbasid Caliphate, who were possibly named after a drug they ritually partook of ("hashishin" is the usual etymology given, i.e. people who ritually smoked marijuana). This is actually a lot more specific than "ninja", who were a general class of warriors who used stealth tactics throughout the history of Japan, and which is a word that just means "stealthy". The fact that we're more willing to use "assassin" in a generic sense today -- partly because of the pop-cultural associations of "ninja" -- shouldn't blind us to the fact that all words, in fact, have cultural associations and no words are truly "neutral", and shouldn't prejudice us against using the pop-cultural associations of "ninja" just because those pop-cultural associations are "Oriental" and the pop-cultural associations of a word like "cleric" are "Occidental". FWIW, going with the reasoning I was using earlier, I'd say that if you're going to make your PC who has levels in the Ninja class just be an ordinary member of the Khorvairian military alongside the various knights, skirmishers, yeomen, etc. of the Five Nations, then sure, find an appropriately Occidental-sounding name for them so they "fit in" among all the other soldiers who are supposed to sound like generic medieval-European military roles. But if the Ninja PC is supposed to be exotic and to come from an exotic background, there's no reason not to use "Oriental" names as a way to give him "exotic" flavor.
AkumaDaimyo 05-24-07, 12:20 AM	I'd say just call the ninja by whatever he does. If he's a mercenary, he's a merc, if he's a spy people call him a spy, ect. And why no asian names in Eberron? Because there isn't a China, Japan, Korea, India, or any other asian contient in Eberron? You can have asian themes, no one said that. But using specific names from asian culture doesn't seem to fit. The Karnathi are called Karnathi, not Russians or Romanians or whatever real world earth cultures they are based on. I'm just saying if he really wants it to fit into Eberron then just do some tweaking and adapt it. I'm not sure Ninja would go by a class name in Eberron. If he works for a house I think he'd be called a agent or something like that. If he's a freelancer he makes up his own title. Or I guess he could somehow work out how the term ninja fits into Eberron. I'd like Keith Bakers take on how the names of asian classes fit into Eberron.
ChristopherGroves 05-24-07, 09:10 AM	Mechanically speaking, a Fighter 2 / Ninja 2 / DM Heir of Deneith could be pretty strong.
ArcTan 05-24-07, 08:54 PM	I'd say just call the ninja by whatever he does. If he's a mercenary, he's a merc, if he's a spy people call him a spy, ect. A "ninja" is a word for someone who uses stealth tactics for espionage, assault, assassination, etc. It's a perfectly appropriate word. And why no asian names in Eberron? Because there isn't a China, Japan, Korea, India, or any other asian contient in Eberron? Those are countries, not continents (or contients). And of course you're not going to use the names of Asian countries. That doesn't mean you can't use Asian *words*. You can have asian themes, no one said that. But using specific names from asian culture doesn't seem to fit. The word "ninja" isn't specific. It's a word that means a highly trained user of stealth tactics and martial arts. It's a Japanese word, sure. To someone who doesn't speak Japanese, it sounds like it implies the person comes from Japan. The word "knight" is an English word. To someone who doesn't speak English, it sounds like it implies the person comes from England, or at least from Europe. The Karnathi are called Karnathi, not Russians or Romanians or whatever real world earth cultures they are based on. I'm not calling the Karrnathi Russians or Romanians. And I'm not calling the Dhakaani Japanese or Chinese. I am, however, saying that if it's okay to use words like "Cardinal" to describe leaders of the Church of the Silver Flame, and "fief" to describe parcels of land ruled by feudal lords within Karrnath, and "corsair" to describe sailing raiders from the Lhazaar Principalities, then it's okay to call a sharaat'kesh a "ninja". Again, it's this pretty strong Eurocentric bias that makes people think "knight" is a "regular word" or "generic word", when really it's just as culturally rooted as the word "ninja". Using words from more than one culture doesn't mean you're equating the other cultures with China or Egypt or Greece -- it just means that you're acknowledging that this fantasy world, just like our world, has more than one culture in it, and *not* creating the false illusion that fantasy too often does -- that because we use European terms for everything, the whole world is like Europe. I'm just saying if he really wants it to fit into Eberron then just do some tweaking and adapt it. The word "ninja" fits into Eberron just as well as the word "knight". I'm not sure Ninja would go by a class name in Eberron. If he works for a house I think he'd be called a agent or something like that. Actually, the Houses don't speak English, so they wouldn't use the word "agent". They speak Khorvaine, the language most commonly spoken by the people of Khorvaire, in which the generic term for an agent of a Dragonmarked House would be a "slafha", a word that has feudal connotations but less directly so than its older antecedent "slufhorn", which we would roughly translate as "senseschal". On the other hand, the word specifically used by Phiarlan "kurr-slafha" or "secret agents" (literally "shadow agents") is, in their native tongue of Rainya (a debased variant of Renya'a, the ancient high tongue of the lords of Aerenal) "phiarlbar" ("shadow agents", a calque). This term is rarely heard except among those who make their living in the underworld, and there it's used as a term of fear and respect -- a "phiarlbar", or "furbul", as the Khorvarians mispronounce it, is a sort of bogeyman. Unfortunately, in English this sounds kind of like "furball", so we need to translate it. What word connotes stealth and martial prowess, but sounds frightening and menacing, and sounds like it comes from a foreign language and is therefore more mysterious? See, I just BS'd all the imaginary language stuff, but you get my point. You could just as easily rewrite the ECS in Japanese, and say that the knights of Karrnath are "samurai" and the Dark Lanterns of Breland are "ninja", whereas, say, the mounted warriors of Valenar are frightening and foreign because they are "cavaliers" and "dragoons". If he's a freelancer he makes up his own title. Or I guess he could somehow work out how the term ninja fits into Eberron. I'd like Keith Bakers take on how the names of asian classes fit into Eberron. I agree with Keith Baker's statement on this matter -- that there's no particular place that is the "Asia" of Eberron, where all the Asian classes and monsters hobnob together apart from the "European" classes and monsters of standard D&D. That, indeed, would be too close to trying to make Eberron mirror the real world. However, I don't have a problem with putting an Asian spin on the various elements of Eberron that happen to be more exotic or mysterious in order to reflect the way most of Eberron's players, who are from the West, would view them. The Dhakaani are *not* China or Japan -- their writing system doesn't have to be logographic and written vertically, they don't have to have curved swords, they don't necessarily drink tea, etc. And in the real details of the campaign setting they definitely aren't -- neither China nor Japan ever went into total decline, saw their entire culture disappear, and had all their lands seized by Europeans while most of their people became savage barbarians, they themselves retreating into a warren of tunnels in the mountains. Those details don't fit at all. But to toss in an odd reference to China or Japan, or consistently use Chinese or Japanese terminology (if not necessarily the mechanics made for "Oriental" classes in D&D) to refer to their warriors? I think that reinforces the idea that these aren't "just hobgoblins" very well. Just like starting to use different terms for everything in Sarlona reinforces the idea that you're in a strange and foreign place.
krlsrrll 05-25-07, 05:34 AM	In a word ... WOW!! That is some serious information there, and all well thought out and phrased and to be honest I like the whole concept of him being a ninja by class but not by name. That fits in with his background as he has been taught secretively so is up to the player to decide who or what he is. Fantastic feedback, and over the half-term when I get a nice week of work (gotta love working in a school) I'll read through it all and try and digest it :D
ArcTan 05-25-07, 05:49 AM	One place where Samurai have been suggested to turn up, by the way, is as warriors among the Dwarves of the Mror Holds. This actually makes a lot of sense -- on the one hand, it makes sense from the "Oriental classes represent the exotic and unknown" side, because Mrorish culture -- something that doesn't get discussed that much by Eberron fans -- is supposed to be just as old and full in history, if less prosperous and successful, as Old Dhakaan. And it's *definitely* independent of the Five Nations of the Humans -- the Mror get along with Humans well enough, but they aren't alike at all, and share little cultural connection. Hell, the Elves of Khorvaire have had a lot more to do with Humans, lacking their own homeland and blending into Human society. There's a thriving race of (Half-Human) Half-Elves because of Elven/Human miscegenation. Whether or not it's biologically possible for Dwarves to breed Half-Dwarves, we haven't received any indication that there've been any substantial number of pairings that would make the issue come up. Giving the Dwarves a slightly Asian gloss plays up the side of the "Dwarf" stereotype that involves the aloofness, the seriousness, the mystery that Dwarves were supposed to have in their original folklore and in Tolkien. It helps undermine the stupid stereotype we have now that "we all know a Dwarf is", the jovial shouting Scottish guy.
ChristopherGroves 05-26-07, 01:07 PM	Nobody tosses a samurai.
Bluebrush 05-26-07, 05:01 PM	Nobody tosses a samurai.I did once, in a somewhat hack-and-slash Oriental Adventures game. My Nezumi Rogue decided that even if he was unconcious, he should serve some kind of useful purpose in the battle.
ArcTan 05-27-07, 03:10 AM	I did once, in a somewhat hack-and-slash Oriental Adventures game. My Nezumi Rogue decided that even if he was unconcious, he should serve some kind of useful purpose in the battle. How could your Nezumi even *lift* an armored Samurai?
Ilmryn Glannath 05-27-07, 05:15 AM	Well said, ArcTan! Well said! ;)
Bluebrush 05-27-07, 08:00 AM	How could your Nezumi even *lift* an armored Samurai?Good roll for starting strength, combat adrenaline and he was a pretty weedy samurai in cheap armour. Everyone but me in that game wanted to play a samurai, even if they rolled up lightweight weaklings. They got their katanas and high BAB, I got my morningstar and broad skill set. Oh how the worm turned when the first encounter turned out to be an army of skeletons, and none of them had thought to bring a bludgeoning weapon. It was quite satisfying to have the weak samurai (10 Strength) beg my filthy thieving walking rat for her morningstar.
AkumaDaimyo 05-29-07, 12:34 AM	Good roll for starting strength, combat adrenaline and he was a pretty weedy samurai in cheap armour. Everyone but me in that game wanted to play a samurai, even if they rolled up lightweight weaklings. They got their katanas and high BAB, I got my morningstar and broad skill set. Oh how the worm turned when the first encounter turned out to be an army of skeletons, and none of them had thought to bring a bludgeoning weapon. It was quite satisfying to have the weak samurai (10 Strength) beg my filthy thieving walking rat for her morningstar. 10 str is not weak. Its merely average. Some samurai, BEGGING you for a weapon? Sad. I would never let such a samurai hear the end of it. However this discussion is about NINJA, not about Samurai and their false code of supposedly "better" honor. :-p
Bluebrush 05-29-07, 03:13 AM	10 str is not weak. Its merely average.Not for a primary melee combatant.
AkumaDaimyo 05-29-07, 06:39 AM	Not for a primary melee combatant. Except that your a Nezumi, and Nezumi get a dex bonus so just take Weapon Finese. Fixes that problem. :P And unless your Nezumi is a ninja, which I know they can't be, at least by L5R standards let's please get back on topic?
ArcTan 05-29-07, 11:56 AM	Except that your a Nezumi, and Nezumi get a dex bonus so just take Weapon Finese. Fixes that problem. :P And unless your Nezumi is a ninja, which I know they can't be, at least by L5R standards let's please get back on topic? Er, what? The Nezumi didn't have 10 Str, the Samurai did. I assume the Nezumi's "good roll for starting Str" was a lot higher than that, if he was lifting and tossing other characters. Also, taking Weapon Finesse is generally not a very good idea, and is a *really* stupid idea if you're playing a frontliner who's not going to be getting Sneak Attack. Even if you have a racial Dex bonus, you'd still rather have a high Str so that you can make one stat do the work of boosting attack and damage. Of course, as far as the Samurai goes, D&D rules don't specify that "weediness" has anything to do with the Str score -- you roll height and weight completely separately from stats, even though I prefer to just assign ones I think make sense. In theory he could've been Str 10 and weighed 200 pounds (fat people can be quite weak).
AkumaDaimyo 05-29-07, 03:42 PM	Also, taking Weapon Finesse is generally not a very good idea, and is a *really* stupid idea if you're playing a frontliner who's not going to be getting Sneak Attack. Even if you have a racial Dex bonus, you'd still rather have a high Str so that you can make one stat do the work of boosting attack and damage. Not true, there are some good prestiege classes out there now which need weapon finese and can be decent front line fighters and isnt the swashbuckler a decent frontliner? Also, with books like ToB and the Shadowhand style you can now do things like add your dexterity bonus to damage with certain weapons, which also happen to be finesable. There are new weapons introduced like the elvencourtblade,which is basically a fineseable greatsword that only does a d10 but has a 18-20 crit range; using weapon finese with it can be very usefull if your dex score happens to be higher than your str score.
Asok 05-30-07, 03:40 PM	I just wanted to jump in before this thread switches rails completely. There's not much for me to say other than I totally agree with ArcTan's posts. There's no reason for people to be afraid of allowing terms like ninja or katana into "standard" DnD. As long as the mechanics fit within the game world, what harm is there in calling a sneaky character a ninja?
krlsrrll 06-04-07, 04:24 AM	Hi all Seeing as everyone has kept this discussion going I thought I'd at least update about how the character is going within the game. We've only played a few weeks but thus far the character is being played as more a vicious thief than sneaky one. He uses his Ki power to go invisible and do their sneak-type attack even against weaker foes as he, and the rest of the party, is evil. He is also the main warrior due to his aggressive approach and this works out well for the balance of the party. The good thing is that cause he acts all sneaky he is being put forward as the thief-substitute in the party and has already been caught out once in a city where the strong arm of the law totally caught him off-guard and now he's in a guard commander's pocket :) The whole issue though of him being a ninja though is not relevant. Yes he has abilities that no-one knows where they come from but is being played in a way where the characters classes are not relevant. The cleric for example is 'the chosen of the gods' and the Medusa is just ... the Medusa :) Thanks everyone though, I had trepidations about allowing the class but as people have said the name 'Ninja' is just a title and characters very rarely use their actual class title and use names like warrior, knight-protector etc. The player is not playing it as an oriental-type character and that therefore is irrelevant. It's being used that the oriental ninja is the inspiration and framework for his character but he is playing it with the character style he wants. Thanks again though, am still feeling my way in Eberron and to see such concise posts on a subject I raise shows the time and devotion people have for the world which says a lot for WotC.