Playing an Empty Vessel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Playing an Empty Vessel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheGreaterBad
02-22-08, 07:11 AM Alright, I may soon be joined an Eberron group. I had an idea for an Inspired Empty Vessel character. My only question is if they could resist possession, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to play. Basically his brother and him are vessels. When his brother becomes Inspired, his change in personality tips him off that not everything is as it seems and he quickly finds himself trying to escape that part of the world.

Thanks in advance
Edymnion
02-22-08, 08:32 AM No, they cannot resist in any shape, form, or fashion. That is the entire point of an Empty Vessel, that they are completely incapable of resisting being possessed, on any level. Any Quori that passes by (aka, at DM whim) could take control of your character, make it into an NPC, and have it do whatever they want, and you can't stop them.

Anyway, the empty vessels are bred and trained from birth to WANT to be possessed by Quori. That is their entire goal in life.
Syltorian
02-22-08, 09:15 AM What Edy says is correct: their inability to resist the Quori is the point of the Empty Vessels, and for the few who somehow realise that the benevolent spirit aren't what they claim to be (and, as Edy said, most EVs would never accept that), it is their tragedy.

Conceivably, you could try and hide behind a Protection from Evil spell, but you would have to do that 24/7, and hope you do not get dispelled, forget to recast it, and so forth. There was an item in Dragon Magazine a while ago which does this, but it was quite expensive: like True Strike, this is not something you can simply pass off as a permanent 2000 gp item just because it's first level. It will be a drain on resources, and is not a permanent solution. You'd be very obsessive about that protection.

Quori Mindhunter makes you immune to possession, but it involves defeating the Quori and trapping it in your mind first. I'd argue that the Empty Vessel cannot defeat it in the first place, so as I would not allow that path.

In general, though, Empty Vessels are not meant to be player characters. Sure, there is a side-bar, and sure it's not 'wrong' to play one. But it is going to be very, very difficult and cause a lot of headaches for you, your DM, and other players.
Hellcow
02-22-08, 01:23 PM Any Quori that passes by (aka, at DM whim) could take control of your character, make it into an NPC, and have it do whatever they want, and you can't stop them.
Actually, this isn't precisely true. As outlined on page 107 of Secrets of Sarlona, each family of empty vessels is bound to a particular quori spirit, much as a kalashtar is bound to a particular spirit. A vessel is completely unable to resist being possessed by THAT SPIRIT. Any other quori could potentially possess him, but only if he is willing to allow it. Of course...

Anyway, the empty vessels are bred and trained from birth to WANT to be possessed by Quori. That is their entire goal in life.
That is the idea, and thus many vessels are used by quori other than their "family spirit". And people will in fact expect the vessel's personality to change when he's inspired - again, from page 108 of SoS, the Chosen are taught to surrender their personality to the spirit, and "when a quori first takes a primary host, it spends a considerable amount of time drilling its beliefs and personality into the vessel." Beyond that, the family of, say, Lord Sulatesh have served as his hosts for centuries; if anything, they'd be puzzled if the new host's personality DIDN'T change and become what they've come to expect from his hosts.

A key point here is that the Riedrans KNOW that inspiration involves possession by an alien being. They simply believe that the quori spirits (il-Altas) are benign and enlightened beings. Essentially, the Inspired put enough truth on the table that you can't shake Riedran faith by proving possession; you claim it's possession by a demon, while they say it's guidance from an angel - and that by driving the spirit from the host, you're simply proving that YOU traffic with dark forces.

So in terms of using Chosen as NPCs, there's a few paths:
You continuously use defensive magic such as protection from evil... which leaves the fun danger that if that magic ever fails, you'll be taken (and become and NPC). Sort of an Angel/Angelus situation.
The Quori spirit tied to your line has been magically bound and imprisoned, preventing it from reaching you. Again, if it was ever to be freed from bondage, you'd be in trouble.
You don't have any defense... but you're not the primary host. You've never been possessed. You COULD be possessed at any time. In fact, you might be adventuring precisely in the hopes of proving worthy of Inspiration - coming to Khorvaire not as a rebels against Riedra, but as an inspiration (if you will) to the poor people of Khorvaire, helping them to overcome the problems caused by their savage and chaotic culture. It means that the DM COULD take you over at any time... but if the goal is for you to become a hero respected by the people of Khorvaire, it might not be in its interests to do so. On the contrary, the quori spirit might actually HELP you in times of need.
With the first two, you're back to needing an explanation of how and why you've broken free of your cultural conditioning (one option being that you were raised outside of Riedra; in the case of option two, you might have been raised by the Adarans who managed to bind your family spirit - you're actually a second generation "vessel").

Generally speaking, however, the Chosen aren't intended for use as PCs. They're conditioned to see Inspiration as the ultimate goal in life, and even if you get around that, there's always going to be some risk of possession.
Rekko
02-22-08, 04:59 PM Could action points, maybe via a feat, give the Vessel a chance to resist being possessed by any quori?

After all, he will be a PC ;)

Personally, I like the Adar-bind-your-quori route and the secondary-host route.

Another possibility is that you were mind-seeded by someone opposing quories.

Or you were formaly a dreaming dark agent that failed a mission against the Silver Flame and have got exorcised. The Flamers would then give you the protection from evil and explain what happened and what you are.

Rekko
Hellcow
02-22-08, 05:44 PM Could action points, maybe via a feat, give the Vessel a chance to resist being possessed by any quori?
Well, a DM can do anything he wants. But personally, I'd say that no effect short of a outright ban-on-possession (protection from evil) should allow one of the Chosen to resist possession by his family spirit. It's not a question of willpower - a thousand years of psionically-aided eugenics have gone into binding him to this spirit. His body is literally on loan until the quori comes to collect.

Another possibility is that you were mind-seeded by someone opposing quories.
Mind seed will change your personality, but if you're an empty vessel you'll still be bound to your family spirit. Again, it's genetic - you were bred to serve as the perfect vessel for this spirit.

Or you were formaly a dreaming dark agent that failed a mission against the Silver Flame and have got exorcised. The Flamers would then give you the protection from evil and explain what happened and what you are.
A key point here is that the typical Inspired is NOT possessed 100% of the time. One of the strengths that the Dreaming Dark has is that its agents can move between bodies... doing a mission in the Lhazaar Principalities, shifting to help a vessel body in Breland, and then shifting to Dal Quor for an hour to report to the Devourer of Dreams. The Chosen are trained to operate on their own, which is one of the key points to the page 108 of SoS - the are taught to surrender their personality to the spirit, to seek to BECOME the spirit, which over time has essentially the same effect as mind seed. Especially when it comes to a Chosen agent of the Dreaming Dark (as opposed to someone possessed but not raised in Riedra), they know what they're getting into; they're trained to be spies, assassins, and saboteurs from childhood. It's not as if you pop the spirit out of them that they'll suddenly say "What was I doing?" (unless they're doing it to fool you).

Now, a human agent who allowed a quori to take possession of him without knowing what he was getting into might have that reaction, but he wouldn't be an empty vessel. Empty vessels are biologically distinct from mainline humanity - and those differences are the result of their being bred to be ideal Quori hosts.

Hence, my suggesting that version two of the story above would be based on a second(or much further)-generation empty vessel, someone never raised in Riedran society. The question of how that first vessel came to father/bear a child would surely be an interesting story, but mind seed is at least one possibility. Another option would be to have a Chosen child kidnapped before he'd had time to be indoctrinated - again, never being raised in Riedra.

The Flamers would then give you the protection from evil and explain what happened and what you are.
Just to touch on this again: Bear in mind that the Riedrans have their own religion, and the Inspired are a central part of it. They believe in a ladder of spiritual evolution that you climb through reincarnation. As one of the Inspired, you are standing on the rung just below the il-Altas themselves; if you serve faithfully, you won't simply merge with some big flame, you will actually achieve divinity. Add to this the fact that Riedrans as a whole are INCREDIBLY dedicated to this faith (thanks to a lifetime of programmed dreams while sleeping and propaganda while waking). And now you have a group of fire-worshippers who have driven your divine spirit (which guides you and grants you psychic power) from you, and who are now trying to convince you that you should abandon your faith, that the spirits that have brought security and prosperity to your people are somehow evil, and that rather than being a blessed being who has risen to the apex of your spiritual evolution you're in fact a tool simply bred to be used by a demon? That's not going to be an easy sell. Essentially, I'd expect them to have to use brainwashing techniques as brutal as anything the Quori could come up with; they're trying to overcome both a lifetime of programming and the Chosen's personal experiences that tell him the Quori have always helped his people. Anything's possible, but the point is that the Chosen aren't slaves trapped by their Quori overlords - they believe that they are honored to be chosen, that the Quori are benevolent angels, and that if they maintain their faith and service in this life, they will ascend to join their ranks.

Now, a human who is duped into letting a Quori possess him? Completely different story. Which is why the Chosen aren't typically your best path for a Quori-touched PC.

I know I'm harping on this again and again, but to me, the Riedrans are the epitome of Eberron's shades-of-grey principle. The priest of the Silver Flame will see the Chosen as an empty vessel being used by a fiend. But the Chosen doesn't see it that way. He doesn't WANT you to free him. He believes that he is a vessel for divine forces - forces that have brought unity and security to his people and made his nation a far better place than any kingdom in Khorvaire. It's not a simple scenario, and most Riedrans - Chosen or otherwise - don't want the "freedom" the people of Khorvaire place such value on. And that's why I like version three for the empty vessel - the character who instead of being the rebel is actually extolling the virues of Riedran society, and who has come to help the less fortunate people of Khorvaire.
Rekko
02-23-08, 12:00 AM I think I need to get my hands on SoS.
VVill
02-23-08, 03:03 PM What about a Human PC for crunch, who is part of an Empty Vessel blood line. He is a disgrace to his family when his first possession is a failure (sensing the spirits malevolence he resisted, expecting a being of knowledge and enlightenment). He is now seen as a tarnish on the bloodline, an anomaly in the breeding. He sets out to prove himself in Khorvaire, prove that it was an evil entity not him. He may even manifest an aberrant dragon mark when he first sets foot on Khorvaire, which should sufficiently shake up his brainwashing to merit a career in adventuring? The prophecy could not give him his gift in Sorlona but it could reach him enough to bring him to Khorvaire.

You wouldn't actually be playing an Empty Vessel but the fluff would all be there.

Does this make any sense?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheGreaterBad 02-22-08, 07:11 AM	Alright, I may soon be joined an Eberron group. I had an idea for an Inspired Empty Vessel character. My only question is if they could resist possession, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to play. Basically his brother and him are vessels. When his brother becomes Inspired, his change in personality tips him off that not everything is as it seems and he quickly finds himself trying to escape that part of the world. Thanks in advance
Edymnion 02-22-08, 08:32 AM	No, they cannot resist in any shape, form, or fashion. That is the entire point of an Empty Vessel, that they are completely incapable of resisting being possessed, on any level. Any Quori that passes by (aka, at DM whim) could take control of your character, make it into an NPC, and have it do whatever they want, and you can't stop them. Anyway, the empty vessels are bred and trained from birth to WANT to be possessed by Quori. That is their entire goal in life.
Syltorian 02-22-08, 09:15 AM	What Edy says is correct: their inability to resist the Quori is the point of the Empty Vessels, and for the few who somehow realise that the benevolent spirit aren't what they claim to be (and, as Edy said, most EVs would never accept that), it is their tragedy. Conceivably, you could try and hide behind a Protection from Evil spell, but you would have to do that 24/7, and hope you do not get dispelled, forget to recast it, and so forth. There was an item in Dragon Magazine a while ago which does this, but it was quite expensive: like True Strike, this is not something you can simply pass off as a permanent 2000 gp item just because it's first level. It will be a drain on resources, and is not a permanent solution. You'd be very obsessive about that protection. Quori Mindhunter makes you immune to possession, but it involves defeating the Quori and trapping it in your mind first. I'd argue that the Empty Vessel cannot defeat it in the first place, so as I would not allow that path. In general, though, Empty Vessels are not meant to be player characters. Sure, there is a side-bar, and sure it's not 'wrong' to play one. But it is going to be very, very difficult and cause a lot of headaches for you, your DM, and other players.
Hellcow 02-22-08, 01:23 PM	Any Quori that passes by (aka, at DM whim) could take control of your character, make it into an NPC, and have it do whatever they want, and you can't stop them. Actually, this isn't precisely true. As outlined on page 107 of Secrets of Sarlona, each family of empty vessels is bound to a particular quori spirit, much as a kalashtar is bound to a particular spirit. A vessel is completely unable to resist being possessed by THAT SPIRIT. Any other quori could potentially possess him, but only if he is willing to allow it. Of course... Anyway, the empty vessels are bred and trained from birth to WANT to be possessed by Quori. That is their entire goal in life. That is the idea, and thus many vessels are used by quori other than their "family spirit". And people will in fact expect the vessel's personality to change when he's inspired - again, from page 108 of SoS, the Chosen are taught to surrender their personality to the spirit, and "when a quori first takes a primary host, it spends a considerable amount of time drilling its beliefs and personality into the vessel." Beyond that, the family of, say, Lord Sulatesh have served as his hosts for centuries; if anything, they'd be puzzled if the new host's personality DIDN'T change and become what they've come to expect from his hosts. A key point here is that the Riedrans KNOW that inspiration involves possession by an alien being. They simply believe that the quori spirits (il-Altas) are benign and enlightened beings. Essentially, the Inspired put enough truth on the table that you can't shake Riedran faith by proving possession; you claim it's possession by a demon, while they say it's guidance from an angel - and that by driving the spirit from the host, you're simply proving that YOU traffic with dark forces. So in terms of using Chosen as NPCs, there's a few paths: You continuously use defensive magic such as protection from evil... which leaves the fun danger that if that magic ever fails, you'll be taken (and become and NPC). Sort of an Angel/Angelus situation. The Quori spirit tied to your line has been magically bound and imprisoned, preventing it from reaching you. Again, if it was ever to be freed from bondage, you'd be in trouble. You don't have any defense... but you're not the primary host. You've never been possessed. You COULD be possessed at any time. In fact, you might be adventuring precisely in the hopes of proving worthy of Inspiration - coming to Khorvaire not as a rebels against Riedra, but as an inspiration (if you will) to the poor people of Khorvaire, helping them to overcome the problems caused by their savage and chaotic culture. It means that the DM COULD take you over at any time... but if the goal is for you to become a hero respected by the people of Khorvaire, it might not be in its interests to do so. On the contrary, the quori spirit might actually HELP you in times of need. With the first two, you're back to needing an explanation of how and why you've broken free of your cultural conditioning (one option being that you were raised outside of Riedra; in the case of option two, you might have been raised by the Adarans who managed to bind your family spirit - you're actually a second generation "vessel"). Generally speaking, however, the Chosen aren't intended for use as PCs. They're conditioned to see Inspiration as the ultimate goal in life, and even if you get around that, there's always going to be some risk of possession.
Rekko 02-22-08, 04:59 PM	Could action points, maybe via a feat, give the Vessel a chance to resist being possessed by any quori? After all, he will be a PC ;) Personally, I like the Adar-bind-your-quori route and the secondary-host route. Another possibility is that you were mind-seeded by someone opposing quories. Or you were formaly a dreaming dark agent that failed a mission against the Silver Flame and have got exorcised. The Flamers would then give you the protection from evil and explain what happened and what you are. Rekko
Hellcow 02-22-08, 05:44 PM	Could action points, maybe via a feat, give the Vessel a chance to resist being possessed by any quori? Well, a DM can do anything he wants. But personally, I'd say that no effect short of a outright ban-on-possession (protection from evil) should allow one of the Chosen to resist possession by his family spirit. It's not a question of willpower - a thousand years of psionically-aided eugenics have gone into binding him to this spirit. His body is literally on loan until the quori comes to collect. Another possibility is that you were mind-seeded by someone opposing quories. Mind seed will change your personality, but if you're an empty vessel you'll still be bound to your family spirit. Again, it's genetic - you were bred to serve as the perfect vessel for this spirit. Or you were formaly a dreaming dark agent that failed a mission against the Silver Flame and have got exorcised. The Flamers would then give you the protection from evil and explain what happened and what you are. A key point here is that the typical Inspired is NOT possessed 100% of the time. One of the strengths that the Dreaming Dark has is that its agents can move between bodies... doing a mission in the Lhazaar Principalities, shifting to help a vessel body in Breland, and then shifting to Dal Quor for an hour to report to the Devourer of Dreams. The Chosen are trained to operate on their own, which is one of the key points to the page 108 of SoS - the are taught to surrender their personality to the spirit, to seek to BECOME the spirit, which over time has essentially the same effect as mind seed. Especially when it comes to a Chosen agent of the Dreaming Dark (as opposed to someone possessed but not raised in Riedra), they know what they're getting into; they're trained to be spies, assassins, and saboteurs from childhood. It's not as if you pop the spirit out of them that they'll suddenly say "What was I doing?" (unless they're doing it to fool you). Now, a human agent who allowed a quori to take possession of him without knowing what he was getting into might have that reaction, but he wouldn't be an empty vessel. Empty vessels are biologically distinct from mainline humanity - and those differences are the result of their being bred to be ideal Quori hosts. Hence, my suggesting that version two of the story above would be based on a second(or much further)-generation empty vessel, someone never raised in Riedran society. The question of how that first vessel came to father/bear a child would surely be an interesting story, but mind seed is at least one possibility. Another option would be to have a Chosen child kidnapped before he'd had time to be indoctrinated - again, never being raised in Riedra. The Flamers would then give you the protection from evil and explain what happened and what you are. Just to touch on this again: Bear in mind that the Riedrans have their own religion, and the Inspired are a central part of it. They believe in a ladder of spiritual evolution that you climb through reincarnation. As one of the Inspired, you are standing on the rung just below the il-Altas themselves; if you serve faithfully, you won't simply merge with some big flame, you will actually achieve divinity. Add to this the fact that Riedrans as a whole are INCREDIBLY dedicated to this faith (thanks to a lifetime of programmed dreams while sleeping and propaganda while waking). And now you have a group of fire-worshippers who have driven your divine spirit (which guides you and grants you psychic power) from you, and who are now trying to convince you that you should abandon your faith, that the spirits that have brought security and prosperity to your people are somehow evil, and that rather than being a blessed being who has risen to the apex of your spiritual evolution you're in fact a tool simply bred to be used by a demon? That's not going to be an easy sell. Essentially, I'd expect them to have to use brainwashing techniques as brutal as anything the Quori could come up with; they're trying to overcome both a lifetime of programming and the Chosen's personal experiences that tell him the Quori have always helped his people. Anything's possible, but the point is that the Chosen aren't slaves trapped by their Quori overlords - they believe that they are honored to be chosen, that the Quori are benevolent angels, and that if they maintain their faith and service in this life, they will ascend to join their ranks. Now, a human who is duped into letting a Quori possess him? Completely different story. Which is why the Chosen aren't typically your best path for a Quori-touched PC. I know I'm harping on this again and again, but to me, the Riedrans are the epitome of Eberron's shades-of-grey principle. The priest of the Silver Flame will see the Chosen as an empty vessel being used by a fiend. But the Chosen doesn't see it that way. He doesn't WANT you to free him. He believes that he is a vessel for divine forces - forces that have brought unity and security to his people and made his nation a far better place than any kingdom in Khorvaire. It's not a simple scenario, and most Riedrans - Chosen or otherwise - don't want the "freedom" the people of Khorvaire place such value on. And that's why I like version three for the empty vessel - the character who instead of being the rebel is actually extolling the virues of Riedran society, and who has come to help the less fortunate people of Khorvaire.
Rekko 02-23-08, 12:00 AM	I think I need to get my hands on SoS.
VVill 02-23-08, 03:03 PM	What about a Human PC for crunch, who is part of an Empty Vessel blood line. He is a disgrace to his family when his first possession is a failure (sensing the spirits malevolence he resisted, expecting a being of knowledge and enlightenment). He is now seen as a tarnish on the bloodline, an anomaly in the breeding. He sets out to prove himself in Khorvaire, prove that it was an evil entity not him. He may even manifest an aberrant dragon mark when he first sets foot on Khorvaire, which should sufficiently shake up his brainwashing to merit a career in adventuring? The prophecy could not give him his gift in Sorlona but it could reach him enough to bring him to Khorvaire. You wouldn't actually be playing an Empty Vessel but the fluff would all be there. Does this make any sense?