Qs on the Changeling and Warforged. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Qs on the Changeling and Warforged. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ghilz
10-20-07, 12:57 PM Heres a two questions relating to the limitations of the changeling and warforged. Just to see whats the general consensus on these :)

1- If a Changeling gets wings from a class feature (Favorite Soul; Dragon Disciple for example) how do the wings affect his ability to change his/her/its shape?

2- The books seems to make it clear that a warforged has no sense of smell or taste. What about touch? Does a warforged feel pain like any other being?
RedRider
10-20-07, 01:53 PM 1: I don't know the official ruling, but I'd be inclined to say you could temporarily hide your wings when you changed form.

2: Actually, according the Dragonshard on warforged, they can smell and taste, though not as well as a human. (But well enough to notice, say, a burning building nearby.)

And yes, they're covered for touch and pain. Though the pain may be interpreted differently than a flesh and blood creature's pain.
LoneStranger
10-20-07, 10:40 PM 1. I'd say they should be part of the character's body here on out so they should change with the character.

2. I don't remember the campaign setting saying the Warforged didn't have any senses but there is a 2 part Dragonshard talking about the Warforged having dull senses at best.
Ghilz
10-21-07, 12:11 AM I figured they could not smell because Races of Eberron mentions that some warforged seek out the Tracking Mask component (which gives them the Scent Ability) simply because it lets them smell things at all.

Anywho, thanks for the bits of judgement.
Kreistor2
10-21-07, 01:38 AM 1- If a Changeling gets wings from a class feature (Favorite Soul; Dragon Disciple for example) how do the wings affect his ability to change his/her/its shape?

Change shapes allows you to "add or obscure a minor feature, such as a mole or a beard..." [edit: since it uses Disguise Self rules, not Alter Self rules]. I would say that wings capable of allowing fight are in no way a minor feature, and could not be hidden. They could be made to look like a different species of wing, but you could not lose the limbs: Disguise Self doesn't allow that.

2- The books seems to make it clear that a warforged has no sense of smell or taste. What about touch? Does a warforged feel pain like any other being?

Some people play it that way, but the text of the rules do not specifically asy that a Warforged does not smell or taste. They don't need to eat, but they can consume potions and gain those effects, so they can drink. They don't need to breathe, but they can choose to.

Basically, anything a human can do, a warforged can do, unless something says that the Warforged can't do it. So, yes, a Warforged feels pain. (Not feeling pain is a very bad thing. You have no ay to know that you are damaged in a place you can't see. Those rare humans that have no sense of pain have to check themselves vigilantly to ensure they aren't bleeding to death.)
Edymnion
10-21-07, 07:48 PM 1- If a Changeling gets wings from a class feature (Favorite Soul; Dragon Disciple for example) how do the wings affect his ability to change his/her/its shape?They don't affect it, really. They can still shapechange normally, they're just going to have a big old set of wings on their back. Like was said, those aren't a minor feature, they're pretty darned major. It would be like trying to use minor shapechange to make it look like you've got no arms, just doesn't work.2- The books seems to make it clear that a warforged has no sense of smell or taste. What about touch? Does a warforged feel pain like any other being?Warforged and smell, taste, etc just fine. The only place that says otherwise is a non-Eberron line book that was filled with numerous other mistakes as well. Then, instead of correcting the mistake, Keith was pretty much forced to address the issue without contradicting printed material (which he is not allowed to do) by saying the senses are dulled.

Bull:censored:.

Warforged rule of thumb, unless specifically stated otherwise, warforged are exactly like any other race. You find me a racial entry that says they don't have fully functioning senses, and I'll accept it. One freaking typo in a non-Eberron book and some backpeddling to try to cover it up don't equate to handicapping a race IMO.
Nived
10-23-07, 08:03 PM One the first question, its true that the wings are a pretty major feature. HOWEVER, what we are talking about here is a disguise check, what you are trying to disguise is the fact that you have wings. This is in a skill set where a half orc can disguise themselves as an elf and only take a -2 penelty, at MOST I think that the wings would impose a similar -2 penelty. And minor shapechange gives you a +10.
Kreistor2
10-23-07, 08:17 PM One the first question, its true that the wings are a pretty major feature. HOWEVER, what we are talking about here is a disguise check, what you are trying to disguise is the fact that you have wings. This is in a skill set where a half orc can disguise themselves as an elf and only take a -2 penelty, at MOST I think that the wings would impose a similar -2 penelty. And minor shapechange gives you a +10.

The +10 bonus wouldn't apply. Yes, you can use Disguise to do a lot of things, but the +10 bonus presumes you can achieve the correct look inside the restrictions of the Disguise Self spell. That spell will not remove major features, so the +10 bonus is inapplicable.
Edymnion
10-23-07, 08:46 PM You could also use the Disguise skill to look like you only have one arm, but that doesn't mean you can use the Disguise Self spell to actually make one of your arms vanish.

When the ability specifically says it only works on minor features, it doesn't really matter if the base skill check can do it or not, the specific overrides the generic.

Its not hard to do though. If your dragon winged changeling wants to look like a normal elf, make a disguise check with your minor shapechange bonus to look like an elf, and use that check -10 (to remove the minor shapechange bonus) for someone to spot the wings.

If they do spot the wings, they're just going to see an elf hiding wings, not a changeling pretending to be an elf hiding wings. Basically, use your ability to be an elf, and your skill check to hide the wings.
LoneRanger
10-27-07, 01:12 PM I know nothing about the Changeling, and am rusty on my Disguise Self, but could you not incorporate the wings into the disguise? Say by wrapping them around your frame and trying to pass them off as a cloak or robe? Obviously it wouldn't hold up if someone actually came into contact with it (interacted with it) but at a glance it should do the trick. Wouldn't that could as a minor alteration of a major feature?
Kreistor2
10-28-07, 10:58 AM I know nothing about the Changeling, and am rusty on my Disguise Self, but could you not incorporate the wings into the disguise? Say by wrapping them around your frame and trying to pass them off as a cloak or robe? Obviously it wouldn't hold up if someone actually came into contact with it (interacted with it) but at a glance it should do the trick. Wouldn't that could as a minor alteration of a major feature?

Something like that would use your unaltered Disguise skill (no +10 bonus). The character can still try to hide things like wings, it's just that Change Shape can't help them in this case.
Edymnion
10-28-07, 12:39 PM I know nothing about the Changeling, and am rusty on my Disguise Self, but could you not incorporate the wings into the disguise? Say by wrapping them around your frame and trying to pass them off as a cloak or robe? Obviously it wouldn't hold up if someone actually came into contact with it (interacted with it) but at a glance it should do the trick. Wouldn't that could as a minor alteration of a major feature?It might be possible with Disguise Self, but not with Changelings, which specifically state that their ability affects only their bodies and not their clothes, so a changeling could not look like they were wearing clothes when they were really naked.

The changeling can only look like other beings. It's abilities do not allow for it to make it's hand look like a longsword, wings into cloaks, or turn it's legs into a yuan-ti snake tail. At the very most, it can add small, non-functional horns or claws. Other than that, no, they can't just look like anything under the sun.

What you're asking for would require a seperate normal disguise check (without the minor shapechange bonus) to hide the wings under your clothing.
LoneRanger
10-29-07, 08:48 PM Ah yes, thank you: I think I see the difference.

So basically, this charatcer's Changeling abilites would not help him to morph his wings into anything but wings that look slightly different, thereby gaining no bonus to a disguise check from that ability.

Am I understanding correctly?
Edymnion
10-29-07, 10:06 PM Ah yes, thank you: I think I see the difference.

So basically, this charatcer's Changeling abilites would not help him to morph his wings into anything but wings that look slightly different, thereby gaining no bonus to a disguise check from that ability.

Am I understanding correctly?Bingo. He could morph his wings into differant kinds of wings, like angel wings, dragon wings, I might even go so far as to allow fairy or dragonfly type wings. But they would still be quite obviously wings.
BrotherDog
11-07-07, 03:37 AM I hope no one minds my injecting more into this wonderful discussion. Adding to it more like.

Let us consider and debate whether or not a Changeling's shape-change ability still exists if he turns himself into a Warforged via Renegade Mastermaker PrC. ;;Dhttp://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/BrotherDog/Gifs/azerlaugh1.gif
Edymnion
11-07-07, 07:12 PM I hope no one minds my injecting more into this wonderful discussion. Adding to it more like.

Let us consider and debate whether or not a Changeling's shape-change ability still exists if he turns himself into a Warforged via Renegade Mastermaker PrC. ;;Dhttp://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/BrotherDog/Gifs/azerlaugh1.gifBeen a while since I looked, but does RMM say you lose all previous racial abilities? If not, then yes, a Changeling RMM would retain their shapeshifting powers, even as a warforged.

Although, it would probably be a hell of a lot easier to just start with a WF and enchant your plating with Glamor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ghilz 10-20-07, 12:57 PM	Heres a two questions relating to the limitations of the changeling and warforged. Just to see whats the general consensus on these :) 1- If a Changeling gets wings from a class feature (Favorite Soul; Dragon Disciple for example) how do the wings affect his ability to change his/her/its shape? 2- The books seems to make it clear that a warforged has no sense of smell or taste. What about touch? Does a warforged feel pain like any other being?
RedRider 10-20-07, 01:53 PM	1: I don't know the official ruling, but I'd be inclined to say you could temporarily hide your wings when you changed form. 2: Actually, according the Dragonshard on warforged, they can smell and taste, though not as well as a human. (But well enough to notice, say, a burning building nearby.) And yes, they're covered for touch and pain. Though the pain may be interpreted differently than a flesh and blood creature's pain.
LoneStranger 10-20-07, 10:40 PM	1. I'd say they should be part of the character's body here on out so they should change with the character. 2. I don't remember the campaign setting saying the Warforged didn't have any senses but there is a 2 part Dragonshard talking about the Warforged having dull senses at best.
Ghilz 10-21-07, 12:11 AM	I figured they could not smell because Races of Eberron mentions that some warforged seek out the Tracking Mask component (which gives them the Scent Ability) simply because it lets them smell things at all. Anywho, thanks for the bits of judgement.
Kreistor2 10-21-07, 01:38 AM	1- If a Changeling gets wings from a class feature (Favorite Soul; Dragon Disciple for example) how do the wings affect his ability to change his/her/its shape? Change shapes allows you to "add or obscure a minor feature, such as a mole or a beard..." [edit: since it uses Disguise Self rules, not Alter Self rules]. I would say that wings capable of allowing fight are in no way a minor feature, and could not be hidden. They could be made to look like a different species of wing, but you could not lose the limbs: Disguise Self doesn't allow that. 2- The books seems to make it clear that a warforged has no sense of smell or taste. What about touch? Does a warforged feel pain like any other being? Some people play it that way, but the text of the rules do not specifically asy that a Warforged does not smell or taste. They don't need to eat, but they can consume potions and gain those effects, so they can drink. They don't need to breathe, but they can choose to. Basically, anything a human can do, a warforged can do, unless something says that the Warforged can't do it. So, yes, a Warforged feels pain. (Not feeling pain is a very bad thing. You have no ay to know that you are damaged in a place you can't see. Those rare humans that have no sense of pain have to check themselves vigilantly to ensure they aren't bleeding to death.)
Edymnion 10-21-07, 07:48 PM	1- If a Changeling gets wings from a class feature (Favorite Soul; Dragon Disciple for example) how do the wings affect his ability to change his/her/its shape?They don't affect it, really. They can still shapechange normally, they're just going to have a big old set of wings on their back. Like was said, those aren't a minor feature, they're pretty darned major. It would be like trying to use minor shapechange to make it look like you've got no arms, just doesn't work.2- The books seems to make it clear that a warforged has no sense of smell or taste. What about touch? Does a warforged feel pain like any other being?Warforged and smell, taste, etc just fine. The only place that says otherwise is a non-Eberron line book that was filled with numerous other mistakes as well. Then, instead of correcting the mistake, Keith was pretty much forced to address the issue without contradicting printed material (which he is not allowed to do) by saying the senses are dulled. Bull:censored:. Warforged rule of thumb, unless specifically stated otherwise, warforged are exactly like any other race. You find me a racial entry that says they don't have fully functioning senses, and I'll accept it. One freaking typo in a non-Eberron book and some backpeddling to try to cover it up don't equate to handicapping a race IMO.
Nived 10-23-07, 08:03 PM	One the first question, its true that the wings are a pretty major feature. HOWEVER, what we are talking about here is a disguise check, what you are trying to disguise is the fact that you have wings. This is in a skill set where a half orc can disguise themselves as an elf and only take a -2 penelty, at MOST I think that the wings would impose a similar -2 penelty. And minor shapechange gives you a +10.
Kreistor2 10-23-07, 08:17 PM	One the first question, its true that the wings are a pretty major feature. HOWEVER, what we are talking about here is a disguise check, what you are trying to disguise is the fact that you have wings. This is in a skill set where a half orc can disguise themselves as an elf and only take a -2 penelty, at MOST I think that the wings would impose a similar -2 penelty. And minor shapechange gives you a +10. The +10 bonus wouldn't apply. Yes, you can use Disguise to do a lot of things, but the +10 bonus presumes you can achieve the correct look inside the restrictions of the Disguise Self spell. That spell will not remove major features, so the +10 bonus is inapplicable.
Edymnion 10-23-07, 08:46 PM	You could also use the Disguise skill to look like you only have one arm, but that doesn't mean you can use the Disguise Self spell to actually make one of your arms vanish. When the ability specifically says it only works on minor features, it doesn't really matter if the base skill check can do it or not, the specific overrides the generic. Its not hard to do though. If your dragon winged changeling wants to look like a normal elf, make a disguise check with your minor shapechange bonus to look like an elf, and use that check -10 (to remove the minor shapechange bonus) for someone to spot the wings. If they do spot the wings, they're just going to see an elf hiding wings, not a changeling pretending to be an elf hiding wings. Basically, use your ability to be an elf, and your skill check to hide the wings.
LoneRanger 10-27-07, 01:12 PM	I know nothing about the Changeling, and am rusty on my Disguise Self, but could you not incorporate the wings into the disguise? Say by wrapping them around your frame and trying to pass them off as a cloak or robe? Obviously it wouldn't hold up if someone actually came into contact with it (interacted with it) but at a glance it should do the trick. Wouldn't that could as a minor alteration of a major feature?
Kreistor2 10-28-07, 10:58 AM	I know nothing about the Changeling, and am rusty on my Disguise Self, but could you not incorporate the wings into the disguise? Say by wrapping them around your frame and trying to pass them off as a cloak or robe? Obviously it wouldn't hold up if someone actually came into contact with it (interacted with it) but at a glance it should do the trick. Wouldn't that could as a minor alteration of a major feature? Something like that would use your unaltered Disguise skill (no +10 bonus). The character can still try to hide things like wings, it's just that Change Shape can't help them in this case.
Edymnion 10-28-07, 12:39 PM	I know nothing about the Changeling, and am rusty on my Disguise Self, but could you not incorporate the wings into the disguise? Say by wrapping them around your frame and trying to pass them off as a cloak or robe? Obviously it wouldn't hold up if someone actually came into contact with it (interacted with it) but at a glance it should do the trick. Wouldn't that could as a minor alteration of a major feature?It might be possible with Disguise Self, but not with Changelings, which specifically state that their ability affects only their bodies and not their clothes, so a changeling could not look like they were wearing clothes when they were really naked. The changeling can only look like other beings. It's abilities do not allow for it to make it's hand look like a longsword, wings into cloaks, or turn it's legs into a yuan-ti snake tail. At the very most, it can add small, non-functional horns or claws. Other than that, no, they can't just look like anything under the sun. What you're asking for would require a seperate normal disguise check (without the minor shapechange bonus) to hide the wings under your clothing.
LoneRanger 10-29-07, 08:48 PM	Ah yes, thank you: I think I see the difference. So basically, this charatcer's Changeling abilites would not help him to morph his wings into anything but wings that look slightly different, thereby gaining no bonus to a disguise check from that ability. Am I understanding correctly?
Edymnion 10-29-07, 10:06 PM	Ah yes, thank you: I think I see the difference. So basically, this charatcer's Changeling abilites would not help him to morph his wings into anything but wings that look slightly different, thereby gaining no bonus to a disguise check from that ability. Am I understanding correctly?Bingo. He could morph his wings into differant kinds of wings, like angel wings, dragon wings, I might even go so far as to allow fairy or dragonfly type wings. But they would still be quite obviously wings.
BrotherDog 11-07-07, 03:37 AM	I hope no one minds my injecting more into this wonderful discussion. Adding to it more like. Let us consider and debate whether or not a Changeling's shape-change ability still exists if he turns himself into a Warforged via Renegade Mastermaker PrC. ;;Dhttp://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/BrotherDog/Gifs/azerlaugh1.gif
Edymnion 11-07-07, 07:12 PM	I hope no one minds my injecting more into this wonderful discussion. Adding to it more like. Let us consider and debate whether or not a Changeling's shape-change ability still exists if he turns himself into a Warforged via Renegade Mastermaker PrC. ;;Dhttp://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/BrotherDog/Gifs/azerlaugh1.gifBeen a while since I looked, but does RMM say you lose all previous racial abilities? If not, then yes, a Changeling RMM would retain their shapeshifting powers, even as a warforged. Although, it would probably be a hell of a lot easier to just start with a WF and enchant your plating with Glamor.