Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bulletprooffox 01-20-08, 08:07 PM	I was wondering on how to rule an Azurin (or an Elan for that matter) in terms of dragonmarks. While an elan is an aberration and forgoes their humanity, they were human to begin with, and they could have been born under a dragonmarked house directly (though I guess they could give up their abilities when they transform, but I dunno). As for the Azurin, would they be ruled as standard human or a subtype or what? I mean, they are randomly born to human and/or azurin parents, as it is not really racial or genetic, simply an influx of essentia into their soul. Could they qualify for a true dragonmark? An aberrant dragonmark? Any thoughts?
Thaliost 01-20-08, 08:20 PM	I believe these races probably do not exist in any dragonmarked house. You'll pretty much find the answers in Secrets of Sarlona I guess. I haven't read this book thoroughly yet, but it's everything related to psionic powers.
Tiarn 01-21-08, 12:07 AM	I haven't read anything that specifically states they lose the powers but I would assume it. The feats that grant dragonmarks require you to be of a certain race, if you are an elan/azurin, you aren't a human/half-elf/etc. Ergo, you wouldn't qualify for the feat.
skrap-san 01-21-08, 02:08 AM	The players Guide to Eberron states time and time again that subraces of Elves, Haflings, Gnomes and Dwarves can get Aberrant dragonmarks but not true dragonmarks. So there my guess would be that subraces of humans are bound by the same rules. But that is just my educated guess so to speak.
bulletprooffox 01-21-08, 10:00 AM	Thanks for the help, as that clears up some questions about elans, though I am still a little confused. Would an azurin be a subrace? I mean, it is born of humans directly, and it can have human children that are not azurin, even when mated with another azurin. There nature isn't genetic or anything, so would they still qualify? I mean, they can still be direct offspring of two dragonmarked humans of the same house (though that would be inbreeding, it is not uncommon for nobles). Would he still bear the genetic coding for the true dragonmark? He is not another species or anything, he is still human, but his nature is changed simply by the nature of his soul, not his body. I don't know if he would still count as a pure human, just augmented with essentia (kinda like an afflicted lycanthrope is still a human, but just augmented through lycanthropy). It does not change his genetic nature at all (though technically they have a slightly higher chance of producing another azurin). He would still bear the full traits of his "normal" parents, would he still be prohibited from a true dragonmark?
eehamburg 01-21-08, 11:22 AM	Doesn't matter. Dragonmarks are as much magical as they are genetic. If you don't meet with the proper requirements then you don't get a dragonmark. It is that simple. Look to the ECS and Dragonmarked for guides.
kelvinaw273 01-21-08, 11:26 AM	Thanks for the help, as that clears up some questions about elans, though I am still a little confused. Would an azurin be a subrace? I mean, it is born of humans directly, and it can have human children that are not azurin, even when mated with another azurin. There nature isn't genetic or anything, so would they still qualify? I mean, they can still be direct offspring of two dragonmarked humans of the same house (though that would be inbreeding, it is not uncommon for nobles). Would he still bear the genetic coding for the true dragonmark? He is not another species or anything, he is still human, but his nature is changed simply by the nature of his soul, not his body. I don't know if he would still count as a pure human, just augmented with essentia (kinda like an afflicted lycanthrope is still a human, but just augmented through lycanthropy). It does not change his genetic nature at all (though technically they have a slightly higher chance of producing another azurin). He would still bear the full traits of his "normal" parents, would he still be prohibited from a true dragonmark? Well you could treat Azurin as Kalashtar - who cannot have dragonmarks and are a distinct race even though a kalashtar can have a normal human child, or a human parent. Elans in Eberron are humans with criminal quori spirits bound into them as a punishment for the quori.
Kreistor2 01-21-08, 11:34 AM	He's not asking about "getting one", the question is "If he's already got one and undergoes the change, what happens?" There are two rules of thought on that. My perspective demands that the PC's remain balanced to each other. This makes things easier on me, the DM, who doesn't need to compensate for the weak character when designing encounters. (My houserules include automatic recovery of exp loss due to lost levels, for instance, since I loathe the death spiral that can result from a PC falling behind the others.) I do not want to see anyone sitting around with a unusable feat or class ability, since that may make the player lose fun and interest in the game, and the last thing I want is someone walking out the door because their character can't be fun anymore. So, I either allow the feat to work, or let the character choose a new feat to replace it. There are re-training rules for feats in the PHB2, but I make re-traiing a whole lot easier than that. The other school of thought doesn't care about such things, and feels that it shows character to play a weak PC. In this case, since dragonmarks require the character to be the most common subrace, and the character no longer is, then they lose the abilities of the feat. So, it's up to you to choose. I don't pretend to present the opposing side very well, so I expect others to clarify that position.
eehamburg 01-21-08, 11:57 AM	He's not asking about "getting one", the question is "If he's already got one and undergoes the change, what happens?" I understand that ... afaik, the rules still apply. If he has one and undergoes the change, then he loses the dragonmark.
Smug 01-21-08, 04:07 PM	He's not asking about "getting one", the question is "If he's already got one and undergoes the change, what happens?" This is the question where the elan is concerned. For the Azurin, it is "This is a member of a race that can be born to a human parent, does he therefore qualify to gain a dragonmark feat." With this question, I think kelvinaw273 is exactly right. Kalashtar are humans touched by quori spirits. While they are born to (one) human parent and can bear human children, they are kalashtar, not human, and do not qualify for dragonmarks. And as the touch of the quori spirit makes a kalashtar, the touch of essentia makes an azurin. Looking to the elan, first you have the question of whether you're actually dealing with a PC undergoing a transformation as part of the game - who thus could have a dragonmark from his previous life - or a character begining play as an elan. Personally, I would rule that the dragonmark would remain on the elan's skin but become inert, just as Erandis d'Vol possesses a dragonmark that doesn't do anything. In the case of a PC who somehow becomes an elan, I'd work with them to replace the feat so the character remains balanced, perhaps giving them a new psionic feat gained in the transformation. If the character begins play as an elan, I'd be happy to let them have a useless inert feat as a story hook without spending a feat. I don't remember if her stat block on her skirmish card includes all her feats, but I'm guessing that if WotC does put out a full stat block for Lady Vol, she won't have "dead feat slots" devoted to her inert Mark of Death. But personally, I'd say that as an aberration - a creature sustained by psionic energy instead of the nature process of life - an elan wouldn't be able to have a dragonmark. And given the fact that dragonmarks aren't simply genetic, and that kalashtar can't have marks, I'd rule out the azurin too. But that's just me.
Kreistor2 01-22-08, 12:19 AM	I understand that ... afaik, the rules still apply. If he has one and undergoes the change, then he loses the dragonmark. Why? He's not a subrace, or even a different race. He's still human.
Smug 01-22-08, 01:11 AM	Why? He's not a subrace, or even a different race. He's still human. Are you talking about elans, Kreistor2? They aren't human, in game terms; they are aberrations (check the XPH entry). They "abandon their humanity for a new, psionically energized existence." And as regards character generation and pre-existing feats, the XPH racial description is fairly clear on this: Newly created elans retain the basic memories and personalities of their previous human lives, but lose all of their previous class levels, skills, and other characteristics; a newly created elan is a 1st-level character, free to reinvent himself as a member of his new race. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Feats - including dragonmarks - are characteristics. A new elan is a fresh slate, needing to be generated as a new 1st-level character of the elan race - and as such, a character who does not meet the prerequisties of the dragonmark feat. He might have had it before, and it could be a cosmetic trait on his character. But it doesn't carry over, and he doesn't meet the prereqs to take it again. Unless, of course, there's been some sort of errata on the process of elan transformation which I'm unaware of.
kelvinaw273 01-22-08, 10:41 AM	He's not asking about "getting one", the question is "If he's already got one and undergoes the change, what happens?" Ah, that makes things a little clearer. I thought he was talking about inheriting a mark. Basically, an answer to this question is here, in the sidebar: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20051024a This details what happens to a character who is reincarnated if they have a dragonmark. They retain the mark, but cannot pass it on to their offspring. So yes, an Elan could in theory have a dragonmark. However, I would personally restrict this to an Elan who became an Elan during the course of play rather than a new starting character. How would you do this? Well I imagine if you were working against the dreaming dark, you may need to capture or imprison a Quori spirit and one way to do that is to bind it into a human's mind (this is how Eberron Elan are created), which the kalashtar may do if they have a suitable volunteer. It's a great background for a prospective Quori Mindhunter ...
korrick 01-22-08, 10:55 PM	You could always tweak the story a bit. Since it seems that, technically, only specific races can have marks (true or aberrant), it would be interesting if other races suddenly start developing marks. Or make only races that are descendants of others (Elans, Azurin, etc) are able to gain marks. If you use the draconic prophecy, this might be important... or it might be meaningless. Thats the great thing about Eberron.
Nexusdragon 01-23-08, 06:00 PM	The azurin have always been a weird topic in regard to racial requirements because they can follow one precedent, but in doing so establish a new one that opens a can of worms. From my perspective, the azurin are the Incarnum solution to the Wild Talent feat of psionics. All they do is trade the free skill points for bonus essentia rather than a feat for bonus power points. What is interesting is that Wild Talent does not inhibit dragonmarks, but the fact that azurin is a race and not a feat makes RAW say that they cannot posses true Dragonmarks. The other side of the coin is that while azurins are very close to human, allowing them access to true dragonmarks based on the fact that they have the human subtype opens it up to other races as well: skulks, underfolk, mongrelfolk, etc. These races are obviously flawed in flavor for the Dragonmarked Houses, but also in an unbalancing aspect for some ways. Those are just my points of view. Allowing it for azurins would really come down to a case by case basis with my players, but straight off I would have to say no in a general sense.
Tiarn 01-24-08, 12:36 AM	My perspective demands that the PC's remain balanced to each other.....I do not want to see anyone sitting around with a unusable feat or class ability, since that may make the player lose fun and interest in the game, and the last thing I want is someone walking out the door because their character can't be fun anymore. So, I either allow the feat to work, or let the character choose a new feat to replace it. There are re-training rules for feats in the PHB2, but I make re-traiing a whole lot easier than that. If you want the PCs to remain balanced with one-another, how do you handle the change into an elan in the first place (since they lose the feat that gave them the mark anyway and all their class levels)? So yes, an Elan could in theory have a dragonmark. However, I would personally restrict this to an Elan who became an Elan during the course of play rather than a new starting character.... I hope you're running a 1st level game, otherwise, who would want to become an elan? ...Personally, I would rule that the dragonmark would remain on the elan's skin but become inert, just as Erandis d'Vol possesses a dragonmark that doesn't do anything. ... And here is an interesting point, Erandis is a half-dragon lich. While her mark is now inert due to her transformation into a lich, it did work while she was alive. So there is already story precedent for odd things occurring in relation to the marks. Half-dragons aren't elves but she had the mark of death. Therefore, I would rule that the elan cannot have a working mark, the transformation would still render it inert, but the azurin could so long as the story was compelling. (And I mean actually compelling, not "It's so mysterious how I, a non-human, got a mark")
Hellcow 01-24-08, 12:53 AM	And here is an interesting point, Erandis is a half-dragon lich... So there is already story precedent for odd things occurring in relation to the marks. Half-dragons aren't elves but she had the mark of death. Absolutely. Of course, an important point to remember is that it was following Erandis' birth that the forces of Argonnessen and the Undying Court joined forces to erradicate every living soul bearing the Mark of Death. So it's always possible to have dragonmarks do unpredictable things. The question is what the consequences will be for the bearer of the non-standard mark. If it was my game, I'd certainly be open to unusual ideas; and I'd be just as certain to make life very... interesting for the character as a result of this choice. Of course, that's the kind of game I like to run. And if I felt the player wasn't looking for that - he just wanted to have the Mark of Death, he didn't want to have the Eyes of Chronepsis, Emerald Claw, and Deathguard all breathing down his neck as a result - I'd probably rule it out. Unique characters come with unique complications!
Kreistor2 01-24-08, 09:22 PM	If you want the PCs to remain balanced with one-another, how do you handle the change into an elan in the first place (since they lose the feat that gave them the mark anyway and all their class levels)? That depends on the party's level. Such an event would be integrated into the story, and not something the character could just ddemand his character have done. It would require my permission. I'm happy doing things like that, and they're usually happier to see a section of the story devoted to the character's development. Such things occur usually when a player has lost interest in a character, at least in my experience that's usually the reason. It's a method of retaining character knowledge while changing characters. (My campaign is 2 years running, and encompassed L2-14. There's a lot for a player to unremember.) So, it's not like this wouldn't have some planning around it. How would it go? that depends on the negotiation with the player. Yes, negotiation. I don't dictate, but I have my story requirements to think of. A lot of things I won't care about, and I will negotiate away, in order to get what I need. I determine what the player feels is critical and ensure that much happens. What the player can live with that I need he must equally accept. Anyway, this is getting boring. No, the character would not start at L1, especially if the party was L14 like my current one. Typically, the character would be L14, like everyone else... like he actually earned by playing week after week, coming to my game for years. Loyalty deserves reward. So, the new character has new knowledge. How does that hurt my story? Uhm, my story deals with a 13 macguffins scattered across the world that need collecting, and an elf that's turning green and scaly. I'm thinking a human that suddenly turns into an Elan doesn't really change the plots of my enemies. But, some of that depends on what class the character is seeking. I can't justify someone suddenly bursting with Wizard levels, but Sorcerer levels are reasonable. I already had something like this happen, actually. A player came to me with the idea of a Synad Psion, while still playing his Elven archer. He had played that concept for too long, and wanted to change gears. He wnated his old character to be still available. Okay, the Synad is a creature with three separate minds in one body. I didn't want to add the Synad as a common race in Eberron, so I proposed something different. How about his elf turn into the synad? That way the character retains his player knowledge, and it becomes an integral part of the game, instead of, "Oh, here's a Psion that wants to join the party. I guess teh elf goes away." So, the players got captured in Khyber by a Daelkyr's forces, and the Daelkyr uses the opportunity to experiment. He's got a Kalashtar and a hobgoblin already, so he unites all three in a single body. He's now got justification for the Psionics, the triple mind, and I don't have to worry about a Synad race. For an Elan, I'd probably do something similar. First, I have a real problem with this bit of fluff... "Newly created Elans retain the basic memories and personalities of their previous human lives, but lose their previous class levels, skills, and other characteristics." Okay, what is Knowledge(History) except memory? You retain memory, so how can you forget history? Memory is knowledge. I spend the time to learn how to rock climb. I remember how to do it. And sudeenly, I have those memories, but I can't climb anymore? Absurd. The same goes with basic BAB. It isn't magical, it is knowledge and knowledge is memory. You should forget everything, or nothing. The fluff is pure BS, and unjustifiable. So, I reject the fluff from the start, because it simply makes no sense whatsoever. (It's not in the rules section, anyway, so it's not actually a rule.) That means I can wipe the character's mind, or not, depending on what I want. Further, all fluff is mine. I can reject and change everything, should I choose; thus, the change into an Elan now involves the insertion of part of the mind of a Quori. Suddenly, I can justify any Psionic ability, if that's what the player wants. Or, I can use an outsider of another type, if the player wants levels of other classes. Or, maybe, an Illithid. Or, how's this... the human and his party delve into a Karrn era ruin under Vedykar. There they stumble into a Wizard's sanctuary, trip an old trap, and suddenly the human finds his mind partially inhabited by the knowledge of a wizard, and maybe a bit of the body of his homunculus familiar. There's no limit. All it takes is creativity, and a willingness to see that the player's characters have stories, too. The more influence they have on the story, the more important to the world the players will feel. That's what keeps players coming back.
Kreistor2 01-24-08, 09:31 PM	Absolutely. Of course, an important point to remember is that it was following Erandis' birth that the forces of Argonnessen and the Undying Court joined forces to erradicate every living soul bearing the Mark of Death. And yet, might that not be a coincidence? Is anyone certain that it was this that united the dragons and elves, or might there have been something far darker and malevolent going on in the House of Death that demanded the intervention of these massive forces? With the poor choice of WotC to place DM secrets in fluff text for players, I personally don't let any of that stand. No, that wasn't why they destroyed the House in my Eberron. It may be the belief of those few that actually know about the destruction and the union of the races that this was the cause, but it's far better to throw curve balls at metagamers that actually use that knowledge.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 01-30-08, 10:17 AM	I just double checked Magic of Incarnum, and azurins are designated as humanoid (human). Note the human subtype. That means azurins are officially a subrace of humans. Recall what skrap-san said: Player's Guide to Eberron stresses that subraces of races that can bear dragonmarks can get aberrant dragonmarks, but not true dragonmarks. Elans, however, do not have the human subtype, and so they don't qualify. They're like Erandis d'Vol: the change shut down their dragonmark. I don't think we can get any clearer an answer.