Quori possession [Archive] - Wizards Community

Quori possession [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rechan
09-06-07, 09:27 PM Question: When a Quori possesses an Empty Vessel, does it use its class abilities, or the Empty Vessel's?

The sample Inspired in the ECS lists Tsucora Quari Spirit/4th Level Inspired Psion (telepath) Vessel.

Does this mean the Empty Vessel is the 4th level Telepath, or the Quori is the 4th level Telepath and it's just using the Empty Vessel as a meat puppet?
JulesCARV
09-06-07, 09:54 PM It depends on the quori. In the case of tsucora quori, they depend on the empty vessel. Other, more powerful quori can use their own capacities when possessing someone.

It is, indeed, the empty vessel who is a 4th level telepath.
Hellcow
09-07-07, 03:56 AM Question: When a Quori possesses an Empty Vessel, does it use its class abilities, or the Empty Vessel's?
By default, Quori don't have class abilities. If you take a look at quori descriptions, you'll see that they advance by HD, not class level.

What an Inspired has going for it are the following things:
All of the abilities of the empty vessel.
The mental ability scores of the possessing spirit, along with a +4 profane bonus to Charisma.
The psi-like and spell-like abilities of the possessing spirit.
The skill ranks of the possessing spirit, added to those of the vessel.
Certain powerful quori spirits imbue their hosts with additional levels in manifester classes while the spirit is present; this is an optional rule covered in Secrets of Sarlona. So a low-level psion does get a bump when he's hosting a kalaraq.
Now, the fiction is that powerful quori spirits essentially transform their vessels - that they have an ideal gestalt form, and that they alter a vessel over time to hit that mark. So the fact that the kalaraq Inspired are so powerful is directly based on the fact that they are kalaraq Inspired, even though class levels are carried by the host. Lord Zoratesh is a 20th level kineticist when inspired by his kalaraq spirit (16th level without). The kalaraq isn't a kineticist on his own. However, the conceit is that if you killed Zoratesh's vessel and he took a new prime vessel, that vessel would start to gain kineticist levels at a fairly rapid rate, as Zoratesh essentially restructures its mind. It would take some time for Zoratesh to return to full, 20th-level power, so defeating him is a significant victory. But he'll have a 10th-12th-level host up and running almost immediately, and be back up to 20th within a few months.

Essentially, the powerful quori applies a template that it uses to transform a vessel into the ideal host. For Zoratesh, the ideal host is a 20th-level kineticist.

The collary to this is that if Zoratesh did this and then took a different vessel as his primary host, the abandoned vessel will drop a few levels over time. There's no hard mechanics for this - but the point is that Zoratesh can't just create a vast army of 16th-level kineticists; it's the result of regular interaction between spirit and vessel.

So: Class levels are carried by the vessel. A quori could have an assortment of vessels with different skill sets that he uses for different occasions. However, the most powerful quori transform their hosts over time, granting power and skill levels, but also meaning that they are somewhat pigeonholed; if Zoratesh sat in a wizard for too long, he'd turn him into a kineticist.
Rechan
09-07-07, 04:32 AM Thanks, Hellcow! :) I am just trying to grok the rules, as I am likely going to set my PCs up against some Dreaming Dark agents, and I wanted to grok the rules. If the Tsucora had its class levels and just squirted itself into a proper host, it would be something to be reckoned with (see: Agents from the Matrix). But since it depends on the host's powers, this means that you can have a recurring villain with new abilities.
Hellcow
09-07-07, 04:38 AM But since it depends on the host's powers, this means that you can have a recurring villain with new abilities.
Certainly. Just bear in mind that it has its psi-like and spell-like abilities regardless of the powers of the host... and the combined skill ranks can also hit some fairly impressive numbers.

But yes, part of the idea is that a DD tsucora could have a soulknife in one town, a telepath in another, and a wilder in another. It probably has a personal preference, linked to the skills it possesses and tactics it prefers, but it can still pop up in a number of roles.

The other side of this is mind seed, through which you can get a variety of different people popping up with the (reduced) skills and memories of a powerful Inspired even though they aren't possessed. The innkeeper? The hireling? The employer? Any one of them could be a mind-seeded telepath. This is actually a good way to introduce a really powerful Inspired without overwhelming a low-level party; you meet the Doombot long before you meet the real Doctor Doom. The party gets to know the personality of the Inspired and throw a few wrenches into her plans... and once they've risen a few levels and become really annoying, they're ready to meet the real thing.
Rauric
09-07-07, 09:37 AM Certainly. Just bear in mind that it has its psi-like and spell-like abilities regardless of the powers of the host... and the combined skill ranks can also hit some fairly impressive numbers.

But yes, part of the idea is that a DD tsucora could have a soulknife in one town, a telepath in another, and a wilder in another. It probably has a personal preference, linked to the skills it possesses and tactics it prefers, but it can still pop up in a number of roles.

The other side of this is mind seed, through which you can get a variety of different people popping up with the (reduced) skills and memories of a powerful Inspired even though they aren't possessed. The innkeeper? The hireling? The employer? Any one of them could be a mind-seeded telepath. This is actually a good way to introduce a really powerful Inspired without overwhelming a low-level party; you meet the Doombot long before you meet the real Doctor Doom. The party gets to know the personality of the Inspired and throw a few wrenches into her plans... and once they've risen a few levels and become really annoying, they're ready to meet the real thing.

I love Mindseed as a plot device. My groups one enemy is an Elan Psion. They are after him because he is responsible for their condition (they are gestalted). Basically he used souls of people to gestalt them, and they found the chamber of all the bodies of the failed gestalting attempts. They see him as pure evil. He is actually trying to bring pain and suffering to the Dreaming Dark for what they did to him. He was formerly of House Cannith and his Dragonmark no longer works since the Quori made him an Elan.

Anyway whenever the Elan makes a Mindseed that seed rebels slightly in little ways since deep down the telepath hates what he has become. The seeds end up giving the pcs tips and hints on how to find the telepath because they want them to end their/his miserable existence. It might not fit mechanically but I find it fun.
ZeroSD
09-07-07, 10:43 PM Here's a related question: Could an Elan use 'Inspired/Kalashtar only' feats and abilities, or are they too cut off from their Quori?
Hellcow
09-07-07, 10:57 PM Here's a related question: Could an Elan use 'Inspired/Kalashtar only' feats and abilities, or are they too cut off from their Quori?
Not by RAW. A DM could always decide otherwise.
ZeroSD
09-08-07, 04:44 AM One idea I've had for a game is a re-occuring villain Quori ala Freddy Friday the 13th. A long, reoccuring villain who threatens the characters awake and asleep, culminating where they find magic to pull his horrible form into the physical world and destroy him once and for all.

If you can actually get a Quori to have a personal hatred for your party, even if it's not a strong one, it can be a major plot thread with a lot of potential.

Btw, what section of SoS has the optional bit on gaining levels for being possessed? I missed it on my read through.
Hellcow
09-08-07, 03:25 PM Btw, what section of SoS has the optional bit on gaining levels for being possessed? I missed it on my read through.
It looks like I was mistaken. I wrote such rules when I wrote SoS, but I think they got dropped in editing. It's certainly something that would be a pain from a bookkeeping perspective, so I understand pulling it; I just like the idea that hosting a kalaraq does do more for you than just gaining psi-like abilities.
ZeroSD
09-09-07, 02:30 AM It makes sense. It'd be good to see more on that in a future product or article.

Aside from the 'what's required to get in someone' and the RP part, I'm not really happy with the rules for possession, the differences in CR between the different Quori and the abilities and skills they possess doesn't seem to be addressed at all.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 09-06-07, 09:27 PM	Question: When a Quori possesses an Empty Vessel, does it use its class abilities, or the Empty Vessel's? The sample Inspired in the ECS lists Tsucora Quari Spirit/4th Level Inspired Psion (telepath) Vessel. Does this mean the Empty Vessel is the 4th level Telepath, or the Quori is the 4th level Telepath and it's just using the Empty Vessel as a meat puppet?
JulesCARV 09-06-07, 09:54 PM	It depends on the quori. In the case of tsucora quori, they depend on the empty vessel. Other, more powerful quori can use their own capacities when possessing someone. It is, indeed, the empty vessel who is a 4th level telepath.
Hellcow 09-07-07, 03:56 AM	Question: When a Quori possesses an Empty Vessel, does it use its class abilities, or the Empty Vessel's? By default, Quori don't have class abilities. If you take a look at quori descriptions, you'll see that they advance by HD, not class level. What an Inspired has going for it are the following things: All of the abilities of the empty vessel. The mental ability scores of the possessing spirit, along with a +4 profane bonus to Charisma. The psi-like and spell-like abilities of the possessing spirit. The skill ranks of the possessing spirit, added to those of the vessel. Certain powerful quori spirits imbue their hosts with additional levels in manifester classes while the spirit is present; this is an optional rule covered in Secrets of Sarlona. So a low-level psion does get a bump when he's hosting a kalaraq. Now, the fiction is that powerful quori spirits essentially transform their vessels - that they have an ideal gestalt form, and that they alter a vessel over time to hit that mark. So the fact that the kalaraq Inspired are so powerful is directly based on the fact that they are kalaraq Inspired, even though class levels are carried by the host. Lord Zoratesh is a 20th level kineticist when inspired by his kalaraq spirit (16th level without). The kalaraq isn't a kineticist on his own. However, the conceit is that if you killed Zoratesh's vessel and he took a new prime vessel, that vessel would start to gain kineticist levels at a fairly rapid rate, as Zoratesh essentially restructures its mind. It would take some time for Zoratesh to return to full, 20th-level power, so defeating him is a significant victory. But he'll have a 10th-12th-level host up and running almost immediately, and be back up to 20th within a few months. Essentially, the powerful quori applies a template that it uses to transform a vessel into the ideal host. For Zoratesh, the ideal host is a 20th-level kineticist. The collary to this is that if Zoratesh did this and then took a different vessel as his primary host, the abandoned vessel will drop a few levels over time. There's no hard mechanics for this - but the point is that Zoratesh can't just create a vast army of 16th-level kineticists; it's the result of regular interaction between spirit and vessel. So: Class levels are carried by the vessel. A quori could have an assortment of vessels with different skill sets that he uses for different occasions. However, the most powerful quori transform their hosts over time, granting power and skill levels, but also meaning that they are somewhat pigeonholed; if Zoratesh sat in a wizard for too long, he'd turn him into a kineticist.
Rechan 09-07-07, 04:32 AM	Thanks, Hellcow! :) I am just trying to grok the rules, as I am likely going to set my PCs up against some Dreaming Dark agents, and I wanted to grok the rules. If the Tsucora had its class levels and just squirted itself into a proper host, it would be something to be reckoned with (see: Agents from the Matrix). But since it depends on the host's powers, this means that you can have a recurring villain with new abilities.
Hellcow 09-07-07, 04:38 AM	But since it depends on the host's powers, this means that you can have a recurring villain with new abilities. Certainly. Just bear in mind that it has its psi-like and spell-like abilities regardless of the powers of the host... and the combined skill ranks can also hit some fairly impressive numbers. But yes, part of the idea is that a DD tsucora could have a soulknife in one town, a telepath in another, and a wilder in another. It probably has a personal preference, linked to the skills it possesses and tactics it prefers, but it can still pop up in a number of roles. The other side of this is mind seed, through which you can get a variety of different people popping up with the (reduced) skills and memories of a powerful Inspired even though they aren't possessed. The innkeeper? The hireling? The employer? Any one of them could be a mind-seeded telepath. This is actually a good way to introduce a really powerful Inspired without overwhelming a low-level party; you meet the Doombot long before you meet the real Doctor Doom. The party gets to know the personality of the Inspired and throw a few wrenches into her plans... and once they've risen a few levels and become really annoying, they're ready to meet the real thing.
Rauric 09-07-07, 09:37 AM	Certainly. Just bear in mind that it has its psi-like and spell-like abilities regardless of the powers of the host... and the combined skill ranks can also hit some fairly impressive numbers. But yes, part of the idea is that a DD tsucora could have a soulknife in one town, a telepath in another, and a wilder in another. It probably has a personal preference, linked to the skills it possesses and tactics it prefers, but it can still pop up in a number of roles. The other side of this is mind seed, through which you can get a variety of different people popping up with the (reduced) skills and memories of a powerful Inspired even though they aren't possessed. The innkeeper? The hireling? The employer? Any one of them could be a mind-seeded telepath. This is actually a good way to introduce a really powerful Inspired without overwhelming a low-level party; you meet the Doombot long before you meet the real Doctor Doom. The party gets to know the personality of the Inspired and throw a few wrenches into her plans... and once they've risen a few levels and become really annoying, they're ready to meet the real thing. I love Mindseed as a plot device. My groups one enemy is an Elan Psion. They are after him because he is responsible for their condition (they are gestalted). Basically he used souls of people to gestalt them, and they found the chamber of all the bodies of the failed gestalting attempts. They see him as pure evil. He is actually trying to bring pain and suffering to the Dreaming Dark for what they did to him. He was formerly of House Cannith and his Dragonmark no longer works since the Quori made him an Elan. Anyway whenever the Elan makes a Mindseed that seed rebels slightly in little ways since deep down the telepath hates what he has become. The seeds end up giving the pcs tips and hints on how to find the telepath because they want them to end their/his miserable existence. It might not fit mechanically but I find it fun.
ZeroSD 09-07-07, 10:43 PM	Here's a related question: Could an Elan use 'Inspired/Kalashtar only' feats and abilities, or are they too cut off from their Quori?
Hellcow 09-07-07, 10:57 PM	Here's a related question: Could an Elan use 'Inspired/Kalashtar only' feats and abilities, or are they too cut off from their Quori? Not by RAW. A DM could always decide otherwise.
ZeroSD 09-08-07, 04:44 AM	One idea I've had for a game is a re-occuring villain Quori ala Freddy Friday the 13th. A long, reoccuring villain who threatens the characters awake and asleep, culminating where they find magic to pull his horrible form into the physical world and destroy him once and for all. If you can actually get a Quori to have a personal hatred for your party, even if it's not a strong one, it can be a major plot thread with a lot of potential. Btw, what section of SoS has the optional bit on gaining levels for being possessed? I missed it on my read through.
Hellcow 09-08-07, 03:25 PM	Btw, what section of SoS has the optional bit on gaining levels for being possessed? I missed it on my read through. It looks like I was mistaken. I wrote such rules when I wrote SoS, but I think they got dropped in editing. It's certainly something that would be a pain from a bookkeeping perspective, so I understand pulling it; I just like the idea that hosting a kalaraq does do more for you than just gaining psi-like abilities.
ZeroSD 09-09-07, 02:30 AM	It makes sense. It'd be good to see more on that in a future product or article. Aside from the 'what's required to get in someone' and the RP part, I'm not really happy with the rules for possession, the differences in CR between the different Quori and the abilities and skills they possess doesn't seem to be addressed at all.