Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meep326 07-13-07, 02:55 AM	I was thinking that the Warforged Scout is a bit like the Kobold of Warforged, too many negatives to make it a great draw for PC's. Here's a race I've been tinkering with for the past few days. Yes it was partially inspired by the little insane phone thing in Transformers. Warforged *name*(I havn't thought of a name yet) Created especially for missions recquiring 'finesse' these are the beings for the job. Abilities: -10 str +8 dex -2 wis -2 cha Size: Diminutive As diminuative creatures they get +4 to AC and to attack. -12 to Grapple. And +12 to hide. Speed: Base land speed 15 ft. Special Qualities: Living Construct subtype. Composite Plating: As warforged. Light Fortification: As warforged. Favored Class: Rogue I keep thinging that they deserve a racial bonus to Move Silently or something. Any input would be appreciated.
Alex_ 07-13-07, 03:06 AM	I was thinking that the Warforged Scout is a bit like the Kobold of Warforged, too many negatives to make it a great draw for PC's. Here's a race I've been tinkering with for the past few days. Yes it was partially inspired by the little insane phone thing in Transformers. Warforged *name*(I havn't thought of a name yet) Created especially for missions recquiring 'finesse' these are the beings for the job. Abilities: -10 str +8 dex -2 wis -2 cha Size: Diminutive As diminuative creatures they get +4 to AC and to attack. -12 to Grapple. And +12 to hide. Speed: Base land speed 15 ft. Special Qualities: Living Construct subtype. Composite Plating: As warforged. Light Fortification: As warforged. Favored Class: Rogue I keep thinging that they deserve a racial bonus to Move Silently or something. Any input would be appreciated. This isn't really a balanced PC option either. The ability scores are far to extreme (try to avoid anything more than a + or -4) and it's Diminutive in size, which reeeaaaally limits its options regarding interaction with equipment and excluding any kind of non magic class. Of course Rogues would still get their bonus for sneak attacks.
Meep326 07-13-07, 03:16 AM	This isn't really a balanced PC option either. The ability scores are far to extreme (try to avoid anything more than a + or -4) and it's Diminutive in size, which reeeaaaally limits its options regarding interaction with equipment and excluding any kind of non magic class. Of course Rogues would still get their bonus for sneak attacks. The bonus were derived from the MMI reversing the bonuses you get from gaining size and then adding the base warforged modifications. And the non-magical equipment would have to be made special for me, and the wonderous items/rings/wands/rods and such all resize to fit the user (I think this is stated in the DMG, but I know it's covered in the Draconomicon).
Alex_ 07-13-07, 12:02 PM	The bonus were derived from the MMI reversing the bonuses you get from gaining size and then adding the base warforged modifications. This doesn't mean it's suited to PC use. There are MANY rules and creatures in the MM that are not considered very balanced or very good PC options. For example creatures smaller than Small or Larger than Large are a bad idea in general. Bonuses and penalties exceeding + or -4 are pretty extreme as well. Yeah you CAN make them according to the rules, but it's not a good option for PCs. It also doesn't take into account level adjustment. And the non-magical equipment would have to be made special for me, Pllaying a character where EVERYTHING non-magical has to be specially hand crafted for you can mess with the normal way the game works. For instance, specially crafted objects cost more. You can't open doors, sit in a chair, or keep up with the party when they're walking without spending money or resources on something to make up for the size. Your character will depend, almost entirely upon magical items for any kind of effectiveness, and most parties don't get fully decked out in nothing but magic equipment until the mid-higher levels. But that concern is less than the fact that as a PC option you're pretty much relegated to spellcasting classes. With your Strength penalty, most any weapon your character wields, even ranged ones, due to size penalties alone, is going to deal at most 1-2 points of damage. And as a caster you have ridiculous bonuses. Most casters don't need Strength at all and use it as a dump stat, and with a +8 bonus to AC and ranged attacks, this thing is screaming caster, especially for Intelligence based ones like Wizard and Artificer.
LoneStranger 07-13-07, 07:04 PM	Actually one of the people in my group is playing a Warforged Scout and it doesn't seem that bad to me (and especially not to him). What are the negatives that you think make it unplayable?
Meep326 07-13-07, 08:19 PM	Actually one of the people in my group is playing a Warforged Scout and it doesn't seem that bad to me (and especially not to him). What are the negatives that you think make it unplayable? I didn't say it was unplayable, and I could see playing it in a high powered game, but not in a *normal game. Could you see yourself playing a Kobold or a Goblin in a party of PHB races as a serious character? *Normal in this context is what the book defines it as.
Alex_ 07-13-07, 08:50 PM	Could you see yourself playing a Kobold or a Goblin in a party of PHB races as a serious character? You do know that you're on the Eberron boads right? :P Goblins (and their Kobold slaves) have their own sovereign nation with international trade and treaties with other nations and make up a noticable percentage of the population in others. I could seriously see it, heck, I've played it. Far less out of place than a Diminutive sized PC of any kind in any published campaign setting.
ArcTan 07-14-07, 01:48 AM	I didn't say it was unplayable, and I could see playing it in a high powered game, but not in a *normal game. Could you see yourself playing a Kobold or a Goblin in a party of PHB races as a serious character? *Normal in this context is what the book defines it as. Kobold maybe not, Goblin definitely. Goblins are pretty damn good for any sneaky character or spellcasting character. Don't *ever* knock the value of a 30-ft. move speed at Small size. Honestly, most people who complain about Goblins not being powerful seem to be people who have a very poor grasp of game balance and to be *way* too determined to play something with really high numbers in its racial desc. Sorry to say it, but you're falling into that exact pattern. (Diminutive size? +8's and -10's? You gotta be freaking kidding me.)
LoneStranger 07-14-07, 07:09 PM	I didn't say it was unplayable, and I could see playing it in a high powered game, but not in a *normal game. Could you see yourself playing a Kobold or a Goblin in a party of PHB races as a serious character? *Normal in this context is what the book defines it as. Acutally yes I can see that happening in a game, maybe not by myself (I'm not partial to those races) but I could see others in the group doing that. I think you missed the part about someone in the Eberron game I'm in right now who is playing a warforged scout, it's a regularly powered game for the most part, granted he doesn't play the character too seriously but it is still a serious character in the context of a real attempt and a benefit to the group.
ArcTan 07-14-07, 08:51 PM	The thing is that WF Scouts are not particularly good at doing what their name implies they're for (scouting). They get no racial bonus to Spot or Listen, and the Warforged Wis penalty they still suffer under hurts them for that. I honestly think the best thing you can do with a WF Scout is use him as a caster, or maybe a combat-oriented Rogue. But Small size has always been one of the traditional ways to boost a low-level Wizard's AC. The WF immunities actually make a WF Scout about as appealing a choice for a survivable low-level Wizard as the Gnome.
Meep326 07-15-07, 01:13 AM	The thing is that WF Scouts are not particularly good at doing what their name implies they're for (scouting). They get no racial bonus to Spot or Listen, and the Warforged Wis penalty they still suffer under hurts them for that. Thank you, I guess that's kinda what I was trying to get across. I just can't see the Warforged Scouts as being used for their primary function. I honestly think the best thing you can do with a WF Scout is use him as a caster, or maybe a combat-oriented Rogue. But Small size has always been one of the traditional ways to boost a low-level Wizard's AC. The WF immunities actually make a WF Scout about as appealing a choice for a survivable low-level Wizard as the Gnome. Yea, I can kinda see that, they'd make a lot of sence for Beguiler, and maybe Wizard, but not much outside of that as far as casting is concerned. The bonus to dex is good for 'rogues' but the -2 str in addition to the -2 wis and -2 cha, isn't balanced, I don't see how they are balanced, when compared to pretty much any other race.
ArcTan 07-15-07, 01:48 AM	Thank you, I guess that's kinda what I was trying to get across. I just can't see the Warforged Scouts as being used for their primary function. Well, they were only really a sort of experiment, according to MM3, since they were never any better at scouting than humanoid scouts, and therefore never made in anything like the numbers of regular Warforged. Calling them "scouts" is a cute bit of flavor to justify why you'd have Small-sized Warforged in the world at all (and why they're in the world doesn't really matter too much for the player who wants one as a PC). Keep in mind that when Warforged were first made no one thought of them as "adventurers" at all, and certainly never intended to teach them dangerous things like spellcasting. All PC Warforged have deviated from their primary function in order to become PCs. Yea, I can kinda see that, they'd make a lot of sence for Beguiler, and maybe Wizard, but not much outside of that as far as casting is concerned. The bonus to dex is good for 'rogues' but the -2 str in addition to the -2 wis and -2 cha, isn't balanced, I don't see how they are balanced, when compared to pretty much any other race. You left out Artificers. Pretty big thing to leave out in Eberron. Look, "balance" has nothing to do with making sure all the stat mods add up to a +0. A pretty fundamental thing to remember is that positive stat mods matter more than negative ones, because you won't pick the race for the classes that take its negative mods anyway. "Versatility" isn't really part of the balance of a race -- a race that made a really, really, really awesome Wizard, more powerful than all the other Wizards, would be unbalanced even if we made sure it made a really crappy Fighter, because everyone who took it would be taking it to be a Wizard with it and break the game. As it stands, for the things a WF Scout is supposed to do -- being a Rogue, being a Wizard (which are two *big* archetypes for the game -- really, "It makes a good Wizard" is a strong argument for *any* race) -- it's pretty damn good. Hell, even if you pick something underoptimized for it -- being a Barbarian, being a Druid -- you can make good work of its Warforged immunities, which are a highly useful and versatile set of protections. The WF Scout isn't *great* but it's still quite a bit better than, for instance, the Half-Orc or Half-Elf. The Scout makes a very viable ranged attacker/spellcaster of any kind -- Rogue, Artificer, Wizard, Ranger, etc. The Half-Orc has no real advantage in spellcasting over an ordinary Human. The only thing he does better than *anybody* is straight melee combat (not feat-based battlefield control combat, which the Human owns, not tanking, which the Dwarf owns, just whacking things and hoping they die first). The Half-Orc who doesn't play a Barbarian is writing "SUBPAR" in big red letters across his chest. I think, in comparison, what the WF Scout gets is more than fair.
ArcTan 07-15-07, 01:50 AM	Also, of course, even if I allowed your arguments the only conclusion I'd draw from them would be that you could stand to tweak the WF Scout's power balance a little -- remove one of its ability penalties, maybe give it racial bonuses to scouting (Spot and Listen), maybe up its move speed to 30 to match a Goblin (a huge advantage for a Small character you still don't seem to appreciate). *None* of this makes it at all a viable idea to be a Diminutive character with a +8 bonus to Dex and, apparently, no level adjustment. No, no, no, no, just no. It's like saying because Half-Orcs are kind of blah we should make a new kind of Half-Orc that's Gargantuan in size with a +10 to Strength. It's stupid and ridiculous. Just because some racial entries are *subpar* doesn't mean that we need to "spice them up" by making them into monstrously unplayable and unbalanceable abominations with no resemblance to an ordinary player race whatsoever.
Alex_ 07-15-07, 02:03 AM	Yea, I can kinda see that, they'd make a lot of sence for Beguiler, and maybe Wizard, but not much outside of that as far as casting is concerned. The bonus to dex is good for 'rogues' but the -2 str in addition to the -2 wis and -2 cha, isn't balanced, I don't see how they are balanced, when compared to pretty much any other race. They also have warforged traits. Partial immunity to critical attacks, immunity to fatigue, poison, disease, ability to continue functioning in the negatives. The +1 bonus to size cancels out a penalty to Strength. A non-spellcasting Warforged scout would probably rely on ranged weapons. Classes like Rogue or Scout also work, and would probably be very common amongst them. Even with a -1 total penalty to Spot and Listen due to the Wisdom penalty, they get a +4 bonus to Hide, meaning they'll still see you before you see them. They aren't as bad as Kobolds, but they aren't Halflings, or Gnomes either. If they are unbalanced, it's only slightly so. Perhaps improving base speed to 30 feet per round or removing the Wisdom penalty to show heightened senses compared to other Warforged. No matter how you feel about Warforged Scouts though, your alternative is still very unbalanced, only in the opposite direction as well as in terms of integration into a party of medium/small sized adventurers.
tenguroEd 07-15-07, 11:55 PM	I was thinking that the Warforged Scout is a bit like the Kobold of Warforged, too many negatives to make it a great draw for PC's. Here's a race I've been tinkering with for the past few days. Yes it was partially inspired by the little insane phone thing in Transformers. Warforged *name*(I havn't thought of a name yet) Created especially for missions recquiring 'finesse' these are the beings for the job. Abilities: -10 str +8 dex -2 wis -2 cha Size: Diminutive As diminuative creatures they get +4 to AC and to attack. -12 to Grapple. And +12 to hide. Speed: Base land speed 15 ft. Special Qualities: Living Construct subtype. Composite Plating: As warforged. Light Fortification: As warforged. Favored Class: Rogue I keep thinging that they deserve a racial bonus to Move Silently or something. Any input would be appreciated. what would the LA be?
Meep326 07-16-07, 02:23 AM	what would the LA be? Probally low, as it's taking a negative to a physical stat, and a negative to two mental stats, in return for a bonus (less than the loss to the physical stat) and extreamly small size. So I'm thinking +0 or at most +2.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 02:45 AM	Probally low, as it's taking a negative to a physical stat, and a negative to two mental stats, in return for a bonus (less than the loss to the physical stat) and extreamly small size. So I'm thinking +0 or at most +2. You're kidding me. You realize that, for example, assuming point-buy, I can put 0 points into Dexterity (leaving me with base Dex 8) and *start* with AC 17? If I now spend some points to raise Dex to 16, I now have, say, a level 1 Artificer who starts with AC 24, 26 if he sticks with the standard Composite Plating for a Warforged, 29 with Mithral Body, 32 with Adamantine Body. This is *insane*. This is *ridiculous*. It's not hard to find Artificer or Wizard builds that would smash the game apart at level 1 simply on the strength of the AC you start out with from this race. Now add the Warforged immunities and the fact that the Warforged Artificer can pull fun tricks with imbuing himself. Holy crap on a stick. I mean, yes, you won't be a Barbarian killing things with a greatsword. Big whoop. No one who wanted to be a Barbarian killing things with a greatsword would take this race. Anyone who took this race and used it for what it was good for would stomp all over any fool who tried to make a Half-Orc Barbarian and compete with him for spotlight in the party. I mean, yes, you can find a hole here. Build a grapple-optimized character and catch him unawares. Sure. Fine. But a stupidly-overpowered monster with a particular kind of kryptonite does not a balanced race make (kind of by definition). Again, people who complain about core or standard races being "weak" repeatedly prove themselves to be people addicted to ridiculously impressive numbers (I'm not going to make him just Tiny, he has to be *Diminutive*, it can't just be +4 Dex, it has to be +8 Dex!) and therefore to have a very poor grasp on the idea of balance.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 02:52 AM	Also, in case you missed it, giving them a 15 ft. land speed is actually a huge boost. The only two Diminutive creatures we know of in core -- the Bat and the Toad -- have a 5 ft. land speed. Keep in mind that you're talking about something that's about 6 inches tall somehow being able to cross 15 ft. (30 times its own height) in 6 seconds. That's like a Human being able to run 150 ft. in 6 seconds.
Meep326 07-16-07, 01:41 PM	Also, in case you missed it, giving them a 15 ft. land speed is actually a huge boost. The only two Diminutive creatures we know of in core -- the Bat and the Toad -- have a 5 ft. land speed. You must also keep in mind that, a Toad is not a fast creature, and a Bat is not designed to 'walk'. Now, I talked this over with someone who knows much more on the rules than I do, and looking at table 5-2 Typical Speeds, they don't have a Diminuative Biped listed (or Diminuative Quadraped, which I feel is a huge oversight by WotC), but looking at the speeds, the step down takes the next sizes Normal Speed as it's Fast Speed, and it's Slow Speed as it's Normal Speed. The listed speed for a Tiny or Small Biped is 20ft at Normal and 15ft at Slow, I could see it being bumped down to 10ft though. You're kidding me. You realize that, for example, assuming point-buy, I can put 0 points into Dexterity (leaving me with base Dex 8) and *start* with AC 17? If I now spend some points to raise Dex to 16, I now have, say, a level 1 Artificer who starts with AC 24, 26 if he sticks with the standard Composite Plating for a Warforged, 29 with Mithral Body, 32 with Adamantine Body. Um... you can't benifit from Mithril Body (unless you take Mithril Fluidity several times), and Adamantine Body at all, as they both limit your MDB. And you still have ASF in all the armour, yes you can get rid of it with Unarmed Body (possibly Ironwood Body, havn't looked at it in a long time) or by giving it Twilight, but that's not possible til atleast 3rd or 4th level. This is *insane*. This is *ridiculous*. It's not hard to find Artificer or Wizard builds that would smash the game apart at level 1 simply on the strength of the AC you start out with from this race. Now add the Warforged immunities and the fact that the Warforged Artificer can pull fun tricks with imbuing himself. Holy crap on a stick. Yes, but look at the HP, they can only take one hit, no the first level goblin or whatever wont hit them easy, but then again it's worst nightmare would be a swarm. I mean, yes, you won't be a Barbarian killing things with a greatsword. Big whoop. No one who wanted to be a Barbarian killing things with a greatsword would take this race. Anyone who took this race and used it for what it was good for would stomp all over any fool who tried to make a Half-Orc Barbarian and compete with him for spotlight in the party. What...? The Barbarian would easily out-perform this damage wise, as a non-caster, and even then, the barbarian can produce a stream of damage while the caster has a limited supply of spells. I mean, yes, you can find a hole here. Build a grapple-optimized character and catch him unawares. Sure. Fine. But a stupidly-overpowered monster with a particular kind of kryptonite does not a balanced race make (kind of by definition). Wolves, Bears, and other animals would make good challenges for this, especially at lower levels where they have to travel and then rest outside. Again, people who complain about core or standard races being "weak" repeatedly prove themselves to be people addicted to ridiculously impressive numbers (I'm not going to make him just Tiny, he has to be *Diminutive*, it can't just be +4 Dex, it has to be +8 Dex!) and therefore to have a very poor grasp on the idea of balance. I don't care about the numbers, I just wanna play it. The numbers came from looking at what it gets for growing and reversing that. I'm going to present it to the DM, whether he rejects it or not is up to him, whether he changes it or not is up to him.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 09:06 PM	You must also keep in mind that, a Toad is not a fast creature, and a Bat is not designed to 'walk'. Now, I talked this over with someone who knows much more on the rules than I do, and looking at table 5-2 Typical Speeds, they don't have a Diminuative Biped listed (or Diminuative Quadraped, which I feel is a huge oversight by WotC), but looking at the speeds, the step down takes the next sizes Normal Speed as it's Fast Speed, and it's Slow Speed as it's Normal Speed. The listed speed for a Tiny or Small Biped is 20ft at Normal and 15ft at Slow, I could see it being bumped down to 10ft though. The thing is that once you drop down to Diminutive you're talking about something someone can hold in the palm of their hand. There is a realism factor creeping in here. Name me an animal that's Diminutive size that *is* "fast". We're talking things on the scale of insects and mice and such. Um... you can't benifit from Mithril Body (unless you take Mithril Fluidity several times), and Adamantine Body at all, as they both limit your MDB. And you still have ASF in all the armour, yes you can get rid of it with Unarmed Body (possibly Ironwood Body, havn't looked at it in a long time) or by giving it Twilight, but that's not possible til atleast 3rd or 4th level. For an Artificer focusing on ranged-weapon buffs? No big deal. I find it interesting that the single most obvious thing for a Warforged who's not a meleer to take is Artificer and you keep ignoring it. Yes, but look at the HP, they can only take one hit, no the first level goblin or whatever wont hit them easy, but then again it's worst nightmare would be a swarm. So it has a particular kind of kryptonite. That's not balance. What...? The Barbarian would easily out-perform this damage wise, as a non-caster, and even then, the barbarian can produce a stream of damage while the caster has a limited supply of spells. By the time you level up a few times, this will be far less of a factor. Wolves, Bears, and other animals would make good challenges for this, especially at lower levels where they have to travel and then rest outside. Wolves, Bears and such would have a very limited capacity to even *see* this character. I mean, the party could protect this character by locking him inside a small metal box. (Do you actually know what size Diminutive actually is?) I don't care about the numbers, I just wanna play it. The numbers came from looking at what it gets for growing and reversing that. I'm going to present it to the DM, whether he rejects it or not is up to him, whether he changes it or not is up to him. Well, non-numbers-wise, the idea of a little Warforged a child could pick up and juggle is annoying and kind of dumb, and is also a stupid way to "replace" the fairly reasonable idea of a Warforged Scout. Again, it's like saying a Warforged Charger just isn't good enough and we need a Colossal Warforged the size of a large building.
Soltares 07-17-07, 10:39 AM	'Improving' the Warforged Scout (speed 30 ft., no Wisdom penalty and / or a racial +2 to Spot and Listen checks) seems like a better idea. You could either house-rule a change, that the official stats represent an inferior build that was improved during the last year of the war, or have a Feat called 'Hunter Configuration' that can be taken by a Warforged Scout that has a leaner build, stronger legs and refined crystalline eyes, as well as fluted metallic whorls and vents on the sides of the head to capture sound. Like Adamantine Body, the Warforged Scout would be able to choose this Feat only at 1st level, to represent those Warforged Scouts actually optimally configured for the scouting role. The game doesn't balance well for anything smaller than Small, in my experience. Even a Tiny spellcaster (or Sneak Attacker) is pretty insane, and a Diminutive one is made of cheese and broken. The stat bonuses you've got listed are pretty crazy as well. Once a race reaches the point where you'd be crazy to take it with one class (a Diminutive Monk?) and crazy *not* to take it with another (a Diminutive Rogue or Wizard or Psion?), it's not suitable for play, IMO.