Rogue Alchemist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rogue Alchemist [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tenadros
08-20-07, 05:34 PM So in a new campaign a friend of mine is starting I'm playing a Changeling rogue generally amoral CN worships the traveller, high int/high cha. And considering giving her/him (not sure yet, and after so many personalities s/he/it may not be either) but giving it alchemy. It will be an investigator type. Probably taking either spymaster or master inquisitive at higher levels. The alchemy bit comes from having an idea that it could be the forensic/csi side of her character.

So heres the actual question. Never having played in Eberron how useful is the alchemy skill to a non-magic/non artificer.

From what I've played in D&D its not real useful because people haven't done a lot with it, and most stuff requires spells. So how do you guys use the alchemy skill? How have you used it, is it useful, etc.

Also are there rules anywhere to do some chemistry with it. For instance is this like d20's craft pharmeceutical where s/he can make ecstacy with it? Or other recreational drugs. Cause most of her/hims personalities wouldn't have a problem with that. S/he's just trying to pay the bills here.
Rechan
08-20-07, 06:42 PM Among other things, you need to be a spellcaster to use alchemy to make stuff like alchemist's fire/acid/etc.
Alex_
08-20-07, 06:57 PM As you've already noticed can't really make Alchemical items without levels in an Arcane Spellcasting class. Ranks in the skill would only really be useful for identifying Alchemical substances in those regards.

Making poisons and drugs would be Craft (poison) and probably Craft (drugs). Poison and Drugs are considered fundamentally Evil, although this doesn't mean they don't have beneficial or practical uses (like your character just trying to pay the bills). This is Eberron afterall, so even if your character does become Evil, as long as you're not killing people, and being too mean to those around you, and seem useful enough, there shouldn't be any reason why they'd dump you. In Eberron, Evil is not only the ancient Demon, but also the greedy loan shark/merchant.

More information on Poisions and Drugs could be found in the Dungeon Master's Guide (for poisons) and Book of Vile Darkness (more poisons and drugs). I think Heroes of Horror has some options too. Magic of Eberron also has Blood Spikes, syringe like items that can be used to inject yourself with certain substances, although they cause Constitution damage to use.

If you want to be a more classic non-flashy alchemist, I think Artificer would be a good path to go. It is one of the Traveler's domains after all. A Rogue/Artificer would be a good way to realize a character who specialized in the study, creation, and use of deadly alchemical items.
Tenadros
08-20-07, 07:17 PM S/he may need to go artificer, wasn't wanting to, but there you go. S/he does have the high int anyway, so might work. Was really wanting to save the artificer bit for a later character a warforged artificer (Dr. J. Micklesthwaite, not his original name but he thought it just sounded so nice.)

I suspect personality C will become an artificer then unless the dm decides to be nice (which I doubt, she's a vicious little minx she is.)

So far I've got "Jackie" the street performer (she plays a mandolin as well as your heart.)

"Jess" the inquisitive (freelance private investigations.)

and "Bethany" may need to become an artificer.

Of course there's always "Kaan" the neighborhood changeling ne'er-do-well might could do some things with that.
Alex_
08-20-07, 07:32 PM S/he may need to go artificer, wasn't wanting to, but there you go. S/he does have the high int anyway, so might work. Was really wanting to save the artificer bit for a later character a warforged artificer (Dr. J. Micklesthwaite, not his original name but he thought it just sounded so nice.)

The Artificer is quite a flexible class. Unless your Warforged Artificer is also planning on cross classing with Rogue, focusing on Craft (Alchemy, Poison, and Drugs), and chooses all the same Feats and uses the same Infusions regularly, there should really be few similarities between the 2 characters. If you want to further differentiate yourself mechanics-wise, might I suggest the Alchemist Savant prestige class from Magic of Eberron.

I wouldn't worry about them being too similar though.
Tenadros
08-20-07, 08:01 PM Sounds like a good plan thus far. Works with sh/im's backstory as well. Expelled from the Sharn university (hence alchemist training) for cheating (that or selling meth to the grad students trying to stay up to work on their papers.) While the dragonmarked person she was working with gets off cause daddy interfered on his behalf. (He later died during the recent unpleaseantness with the rest of the world, I do hate loose ends in a backstory they always come back to haunt you.)

At any rate justifies her knowledge base, and her dislike of the mark houses. (Decidedly a classist this person.) So now s/he lives by wits and abilities and does whatever pays.

I had the investigate feat for first level but with this I may switch it to education to give a broader knowledge base. I'll need to redo the character's skills (no easy feat with 48 skill points at first level).

Of course this means my rogue skills will suffer as a result. Unfortunate that. I'll have to make up for the lack of d6's in the sneak attack with d6's from alchemical sources.

Of course now to consider what can be alchemically done to a whip. (melee weapon of choice, attracts less attention when you disarm and trip a person in self defense then when you kill them with a sword.) And of course to the obligatory crossbow. (inferior to the compund bow but necessary for roleplaying reasons.)
Tenadros
08-20-07, 08:03 PM Making poisons and drugs would be Craft (poison) and probably Craft (drugs). Poison and Drugs are considered fundamentally Evil, although this doesn't mean they don't have beneficial or practical uses (like your character just trying to pay the bills).

And maybe its the card carrying Libertarian in me but how on earth are rec. drugs fundamentally evil? I understand its jsut straight source stuff but really now. Pot is fundamentally evil?
Edymnion
08-20-07, 08:45 PM Poison and Drugs are considered fundamentally EvilNo they're not. Simply making something is never a good or an evil act unless it involves actually binding evil into the item. And poison is not evil in 3e, thats a bad holdover idea from 2e. The *ONLY* time you will see poison and evil in the same sentence in 3e is in the Book of Exaulted Deeds, and thats just so it can turn around and make "good" poisons in the form of Ravages that do the exact same thing as poison, so they could reprint half the poison table with differant names and make it look like new content.

And the use of Poison is not evil, its chaotic. Poison is a tool, like a sword. How and why you use it is far more important than the fact you are using it.
Alex_
08-20-07, 09:25 PM And maybe its the card carrying Libertarian in me but how on earth are rec. drugs fundamentally evil? I understand its just straight source stuff but really now. Pot is fundamentally evil?

There's no "pot" in D&D. The substances labeled as Drugs in D&D differ from Marijuana in that they're very addictive and very damaging to the body, and actually do seem to corrupt individuals.

There's plenty of stuff in D&D that's contradictory, strays from real world models, or is difficult/impossible to logically justify on any grounds. I wouldn't even bother worrying about or getting offended by it.

As is the case with most stuff in the rules, anything you don't like, you can talk with the DM about changing.

No they're not. Simply making something is never a good or an evil act unless it involves actually binding evil into the item. And poison is not evil in 3e, thats a bad holdover idea from 2e. The *ONLY* time you will see poison and evil in the same sentence in 3e is in the Book of Exaulted Deeds, and thats just so it can turn around and make "good" poisons in the form of Ravages that do the exact same thing as poison, so they could reprint half the poison table with different names and make it look like new content.

And the use of Poison is not evil, its chaotic. Poison is a tool, like a sword. How and why you use it is far more important than the fact you are using it.

I thought the Book of Vile Evil labeled them Evil. Granted I don't have the book on me now.
Edymnion
08-21-07, 08:34 AM I thought the Book of Vile Evil labeled them Evil. Granted I don't have the book on me now.Nope, it was Exalted Deeds, because they cause the subject "undue physical pain and suffering", which is apparently evil. It doesn't bother to mention the "undue physical pain and suffering" of having a dagger shoved in your gut though, and it turns around and spends a good paragraph describing the agony that a ravage puts evil characters into, but falls into the "Well, it only works on evil people, so you can make them suffer all you want, and its a Good thing!" trap. Because, apparently, torturing evil people is a Good act. Accourding to the BoED anyway.
taski
08-27-07, 12:43 AM There are some interesting alchemical substances/drugs in S:CoT. Some are dangerous, some are addictive, and some are both! The book provides craft DCs, cost, etc. They're not listed as Eeeevil there.

From memory:

Absentia - Briefly sends your mind into some random other person's.

Dreamlily - Basically Reidran psionic opium.

Dragon's Blood - Comes in different colors and gives momentary boost to sorcerers at the cost of painful addiction.

There're a few others that are also cool.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenadros 08-20-07, 05:34 PM	So in a new campaign a friend of mine is starting I'm playing a Changeling rogue generally amoral CN worships the traveller, high int/high cha. And considering giving her/him (not sure yet, and after so many personalities s/he/it may not be either) but giving it alchemy. It will be an investigator type. Probably taking either spymaster or master inquisitive at higher levels. The alchemy bit comes from having an idea that it could be the forensic/csi side of her character. So heres the actual question. Never having played in Eberron how useful is the alchemy skill to a non-magic/non artificer. From what I've played in D&D its not real useful because people haven't done a lot with it, and most stuff requires spells. So how do you guys use the alchemy skill? How have you used it, is it useful, etc. Also are there rules anywhere to do some chemistry with it. For instance is this like d20's craft pharmeceutical where s/he can make ecstacy with it? Or other recreational drugs. Cause most of her/hims personalities wouldn't have a problem with that. S/he's just trying to pay the bills here.
Rechan 08-20-07, 06:42 PM	Among other things, you need to be a spellcaster to use alchemy to make stuff like alchemist's fire/acid/etc.
Alex_ 08-20-07, 06:57 PM	As you've already noticed can't really make Alchemical items without levels in an Arcane Spellcasting class. Ranks in the skill would only really be useful for identifying Alchemical substances in those regards. Making poisons and drugs would be Craft (poison) and probably Craft (drugs). Poison and Drugs are considered fundamentally Evil, although this doesn't mean they don't have beneficial or practical uses (like your character just trying to pay the bills). This is Eberron afterall, so even if your character does become Evil, as long as you're not killing people, and being too mean to those around you, and seem useful enough, there shouldn't be any reason why they'd dump you. In Eberron, Evil is not only the ancient Demon, but also the greedy loan shark/merchant. More information on Poisions and Drugs could be found in the Dungeon Master's Guide (for poisons) and Book of Vile Darkness (more poisons and drugs). I think Heroes of Horror has some options too. Magic of Eberron also has Blood Spikes, syringe like items that can be used to inject yourself with certain substances, although they cause Constitution damage to use. If you want to be a more classic non-flashy alchemist, I think Artificer would be a good path to go. It is one of the Traveler's domains after all. A Rogue/Artificer would be a good way to realize a character who specialized in the study, creation, and use of deadly alchemical items.
Tenadros 08-20-07, 07:17 PM	S/he may need to go artificer, wasn't wanting to, but there you go. S/he does have the high int anyway, so might work. Was really wanting to save the artificer bit for a later character a warforged artificer (Dr. J. Micklesthwaite, not his original name but he thought it just sounded so nice.) I suspect personality C will become an artificer then unless the dm decides to be nice (which I doubt, she's a vicious little minx she is.) So far I've got "Jackie" the street performer (she plays a mandolin as well as your heart.) "Jess" the inquisitive (freelance private investigations.) and "Bethany" may need to become an artificer. Of course there's always "Kaan" the neighborhood changeling ne'er-do-well might could do some things with that.
Alex_ 08-20-07, 07:32 PM	S/he may need to go artificer, wasn't wanting to, but there you go. S/he does have the high int anyway, so might work. Was really wanting to save the artificer bit for a later character a warforged artificer (Dr. J. Micklesthwaite, not his original name but he thought it just sounded so nice.) The Artificer is quite a flexible class. Unless your Warforged Artificer is also planning on cross classing with Rogue, focusing on Craft (Alchemy, Poison, and Drugs), and chooses all the same Feats and uses the same Infusions regularly, there should really be few similarities between the 2 characters. If you want to further differentiate yourself mechanics-wise, might I suggest the Alchemist Savant prestige class from Magic of Eberron. I wouldn't worry about them being too similar though.
Tenadros 08-20-07, 08:01 PM	Sounds like a good plan thus far. Works with sh/im's backstory as well. Expelled from the Sharn university (hence alchemist training) for cheating (that or selling meth to the grad students trying to stay up to work on their papers.) While the dragonmarked person she was working with gets off cause daddy interfered on his behalf. (He later died during the recent unpleaseantness with the rest of the world, I do hate loose ends in a backstory they always come back to haunt you.) At any rate justifies her knowledge base, and her dislike of the mark houses. (Decidedly a classist this person.) So now s/he lives by wits and abilities and does whatever pays. I had the investigate feat for first level but with this I may switch it to education to give a broader knowledge base. I'll need to redo the character's skills (no easy feat with 48 skill points at first level). Of course this means my rogue skills will suffer as a result. Unfortunate that. I'll have to make up for the lack of d6's in the sneak attack with d6's from alchemical sources. Of course now to consider what can be alchemically done to a whip. (melee weapon of choice, attracts less attention when you disarm and trip a person in self defense then when you kill them with a sword.) And of course to the obligatory crossbow. (inferior to the compund bow but necessary for roleplaying reasons.)
Tenadros 08-20-07, 08:03 PM	Making poisons and drugs would be Craft (poison) and probably Craft (drugs). Poison and Drugs are considered fundamentally Evil, although this doesn't mean they don't have beneficial or practical uses (like your character just trying to pay the bills). And maybe its the card carrying Libertarian in me but how on earth are rec. drugs fundamentally evil? I understand its jsut straight source stuff but really now. Pot is fundamentally evil?
Edymnion 08-20-07, 08:45 PM	Poison and Drugs are considered fundamentally EvilNo they're not. Simply making something is never a good or an evil act unless it involves actually binding evil into the item. And poison is not evil in 3e, thats a bad holdover idea from 2e. The ONLY time you will see poison and evil in the same sentence in 3e is in the Book of Exaulted Deeds, and thats just so it can turn around and make "good" poisons in the form of Ravages that do the exact same thing as poison, so they could reprint half the poison table with differant names and make it look like new content. And the use of Poison is not evil, its chaotic. Poison is a tool, like a sword. How and why you use it is far more important than the fact you are using it.
Alex_ 08-20-07, 09:25 PM	And maybe its the card carrying Libertarian in me but how on earth are rec. drugs fundamentally evil? I understand its just straight source stuff but really now. Pot is fundamentally evil? There's no "pot" in D&D. The substances labeled as Drugs in D&D differ from Marijuana in that they're very addictive and very damaging to the body, and actually do seem to corrupt individuals. There's plenty of stuff in D&D that's contradictory, strays from real world models, or is difficult/impossible to logically justify on any grounds. I wouldn't even bother worrying about or getting offended by it. As is the case with most stuff in the rules, anything you don't like, you can talk with the DM about changing. No they're not. Simply making something is never a good or an evil act unless it involves actually binding evil into the item. And poison is not evil in 3e, thats a bad holdover idea from 2e. The ONLY time you will see poison and evil in the same sentence in 3e is in the Book of Exaulted Deeds, and thats just so it can turn around and make "good" poisons in the form of Ravages that do the exact same thing as poison, so they could reprint half the poison table with different names and make it look like new content. And the use of Poison is not evil, its chaotic. Poison is a tool, like a sword. How and why you use it is far more important than the fact you are using it. I thought the Book of Vile Evil labeled them Evil. Granted I don't have the book on me now.
Edymnion 08-21-07, 08:34 AM	I thought the Book of Vile Evil labeled them Evil. Granted I don't have the book on me now.Nope, it was Exalted Deeds, because they cause the subject "undue physical pain and suffering", which is apparently evil. It doesn't bother to mention the "undue physical pain and suffering" of having a dagger shoved in your gut though, and it turns around and spends a good paragraph describing the agony that a ravage puts evil characters into, but falls into the "Well, it only works on evil people, so you can make them suffer all you want, and its a Good thing!" trap. Because, apparently, torturing evil people is a Good act. Accourding to the BoED anyway.
taski 08-27-07, 12:43 AM	There are some interesting alchemical substances/drugs in S:CoT. Some are dangerous, some are addictive, and some are both! The book provides craft DCs, cost, etc. They're not listed as Eeeevil there. From memory: Absentia - Briefly sends your mind into some random other person's. Dreamlily - Basically Reidran psionic opium. Dragon's Blood - Comes in different colors and gives momentary boost to sorcerers at the cost of painful addiction. There're a few others that are also cool.