Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CelestialBarbarian 03-23-07, 11:18 AM	I'm thinking of making a rogue for a new Eberron campaign. I looked through the ECS and the only race with a bonus to Dexterity is the shifter. The cliffwalk and longstride traits grant an additional +2 bonus to Dexerity. The rogue is heavily oriented toward the use of skills, however, and the shifter gets a -2 penalty to Intelligence, losing skill points. The shifter also gets the extra bonus to Dexterity for a very limited time. Most of the shifter feats seem relatively limited in their usefulness to rogues. It seems like maybe a halfling would just make a better rogue than a shifter. What do you think?
Kid SixXx 03-23-07, 11:21 AM	What do you think? You should probably take a peek at the Changeling again. ;)
CelestialBarbarian 03-23-07, 11:24 AM	You should probably take a peak at the Changeling again. ;) I see that they have rogue as a favored class, but they don't have a bonus to Dexterity.
Kid SixXx 03-23-07, 11:29 AM	I see that they have rogue as a favored class, but they don't have a bonus to Dexterity. All of those racial abilities that Changelings get that mesh well with the Rogue class & you're primarily concerned with bonuses to your DEX score? If I wanted a front-loaded rogue for the early levels then the bonus to DEX would concern me, but there's nothing to raw DEX bonuses you can't heal later on with skill points or the appropriate feat. Everything boils down to what kind of rogue you want to play. I do admire the effort to play something else besides your iconic Changeling rogue. I'd probably go with a Halfling or a Gnome, myself. Or you could focus on PrC's to help your decision along. The Silver Key PrC that House Kundarak Dwarves can aspire to is pretty sweet.
CelestialBarbarian 03-23-07, 11:35 AM	All of those racial abilities that Changelings get that mesh well with the Rogue class & you're primarily concerned with bonuses to your DEX score? Yes, I'm primarily interested in the rogue's ability to search and disarm, and secondarily with the ability to sneak attack. The abilities where the changeling gets its bonuses are of tertiary concern to me.
Kid SixXx 03-23-07, 11:39 AM	Yes, I'm primarily interested in the rogue's ability to search and disarm, and secondarily with the ability to sneak attack. High DEX will come in handy for Tumble checks to gain a Flanking position for SA, but I thought Search checks & Disable Device checks were INT related? Or are we talking about something different? I'm at work & don't have my books handy.
CelestialBarbarian 03-23-07, 12:24 PM	High DEX will come in handy for Tumble checks to gain a Flanking position for SA, but I thought Search checks & Disable Device checks were INT related? Or are we talking about something different? I'm at work & don't have my books handy. The changeling does not get a bonus either on Intelligence or on Search or Disable Device checks. Dexterity does apply to the rogue skills Move Silently, Hide, Open Lock (I forgot to include that along with Search and Disable Device) and Sleight of Hand. It also improved AC and attack bonus when used with Weapon Finesse (or a ranged weapon). Disable Device and Search do use Intelligence, but as no standard race gets a bonus to Intelligence, that's not an issue. (The shifter does, however, suffer a penalty to Intelligence, so that's another disadvantage to playing a shifter rogue in addition to the loss of skill points.)
Kid SixXx 03-23-07, 12:38 PM	The changeling does not get a bonus either on Intelligence or on Search or Disable Device checks. Dexterity does apply to the rogue skills Move Silently, Hide, Open Lock (I forgot to include that along with Search and Disable Device) and Sleight of Hand. I was about to say that I'd be more concerned with DEX as is applied to Move Silently, Hide, and Tumble, as those will be your bread & butter skills in combat. If your aim is to be good now as opposed to later on, then I'd worry about the DEX bonus. By the time you get the class features that really bring the rogue to the table (trapfinding for starters), ability modifiers could very well be a wash depending on how you spend your skill points & what feats you decide to take. Also depends on what style of play your DM prefers. If you tend to fight more than you tend to handle skill monkey tasks, then I'd be concerned with padding my DEX.
Werebat 03-23-07, 03:58 PM	Yes, I'm primarily interested in the rogue's ability to search and disarm, and secondarily with the ability to sneak attack. The abilities where the changeling gets its bonuses are of tertiary concern to me. Sounds like you want to make a more physical, sneak-attack oriented rogue. If so then you could do worse than Shifter. Longstrider will indeed buff your Dex by 2 points when it is in effect, and the 10' boost to your move will put you at 40' -- TWICE what the halfling gets, and this shows when tumbling to get into position for those sneak attacks. I'd take the Shifter Instincts feat for the bump to Initiative and Longstride Elite to bring your land speed up to 50, as both are useful for a rogue. Put skill points into Sense Motive and have that be your social skill -- you don't talk much when the party interacts with NPCs, but show your displeasure at people you "just don't trust" by raising your hackles and growling. If you want to go for a greater NUMBER of attacks, take Longtooth so you get a bite attack as well as TWF. By the book, here's a smart little build for that, not that I'm an expert at builds: 1. Rogue1 (Longtooth) * Shifter Instincts 2. Ranger1 [Track] 3. Rogue2 * Longtooth Elite 4. Ranger2 [TWF] 5. Rogue3 6. Rogue4 * Shifter Defense 7. Rogue5 8. Rogue6 9. Rogue7 * Imp. TWF 10.Rogue8 11.Rogue9 12.Rogue10 * Greater Shifter Defense This assumes your Dex score isn't much higher than your Str -- if it is, grab Weapon Finesse at level 3 and maybe take a non-shifter feat at level 12. Longtooth gives an extra sneak attack and Longtooth Elite makes that extra attack damage a point of Con every time it hits. Oh, and if you do play a shifter rogue, I'd strongly recommend checking out the "Wilderness Rogue" variant in Unearthed Arcana. They basically swap out Knowledge:Local for Knowledge:Nature and something else for Gather Info (I think) for Survival. Much more shifter-ish than the regular rogue. - Ron ^*^
Cambian00 03-23-07, 06:42 PM	dude.....now that is a pretty sweet build... I was going to try out the changeling rogue idea but your shifter thing just rocks...... rock on bat-boy, I think Ima gonna hafta try dat one
Werebat 03-24-07, 01:16 PM	dude.....now that is a pretty sweet build... I was going to try out the changeling rogue idea but your shifter thing just rocks...... rock on bat-boy, I think Ima gonna hafta try dat one I think that's the first time I've gotten a compliment on a build... *snif*! ;) Seriously, check out Wilderness Rogue from Unearthed Arcana, it is thematically THE way to go with a shifter rogue and the skill swaps are useful too. I checked last night and there are more swaps than I remember but all of them are good -- you lose all the skills you'd never want a shifter rogue to have anyway and get skills that you WOULD. Another suggestion is that you *might* want to choose something other than Shifter Defense and Greater Shifter Defense for feats. I'm not sure what the consensus here is but I suspect that at high levels DR4 isn't really that big a deal. Extra shifter trait: Longstrider and Longstrider elite might be a better way to go (for example) because rogues love mobility. Slap on the standard Boots of Striding and Some Other Thing and you're base move is up to 60'! Good luck! - Ron ^*^
Dragom 03-24-07, 01:58 PM	DR 4 is something, and you'd be surprised how many high level encounters don't have silver weapons.
Werebat 03-24-07, 03:06 PM	DR 4 is something, and you'd be surprised how many high level encounters don't have silver weapons. Oh, I'd expect almost none of them do; DR/Silver is practically DR/--. But when you're getting pounded on by a storm giant for 37 points of damage, that 4 points of DR isn't much. Depends on what you expect to be fighting at high level, I guess. If it's hordes of 6th level warriors, DR 4 is a great thing. BTW, if you're going to go for Weapon Finesse, I'd take Longstrider as my original trait, for the +2 to Dex, and buy Longtooth as a feat later on. - Ron ^*^
CelestialBarbarian 03-24-07, 04:54 PM	Sounds like you want to make a more physical, sneak-attack oriented rogue. If so then you could do worse than Shifter. Longstrider will indeed buff your Dex by 2 points when it is in effect, and the 10' boost to your move will put you at 40' -- TWICE what the halfling gets, and this shows when tumbling to get into position for those sneak attacks. I'd take the Shifter Instincts feat for the bump to Initiative and Longstride Elite to bring your land speed up to 50, as both are useful for a rogue. Put skill points into Sense Motive and have that be your social skill -- you don't talk much when the party interacts with NPCs, but show your displeasure at people you "just don't trust" by raising your hackles and growling. If you want to go for a greater NUMBER of attacks, take Longtooth so you get a bite attack as well as TWF. By the book, here's a smart little build for that, not that I'm an expert at builds: 1. Rogue1 (Longtooth) * Shifter Instincts 2. Ranger1 [Track] 3. Rogue2 * Longtooth Elite 4. Ranger2 [TWF] 5. Rogue3 6. Rogue4 * Shifter Defense 7. Rogue5 8. Rogue6 9. Rogue7 * Imp. TWF 10.Rogue8 11.Rogue9 12.Rogue10 * Greater Shifter Defense This assumes your Dex score isn't much higher than your Str -- if it is, grab Weapon Finesse at level 3 and maybe take a non-shifter feat at level 12. Longtooth gives an extra sneak attack and Longtooth Elite makes that extra attack damage a point of Con every time it hits. Oh, and if you do play a shifter rogue, I'd strongly recommend checking out the "Wilderness Rogue" variant in Unearthed Arcana. They basically swap out Knowledge:Local for Knowledge:Nature and something else for Gather Info (I think) for Survival. Much more shifter-ish than the regular rogue. - Ron ^*^ It's an interesting build, but I'm not sure I want to further dilute the rogue's usefulness in finding and disarming traps, and opening traps (it's already weaker because of the lower Intelligence) by adding ranger levels. I might check with the DM to see if he's planning to have more wilderness adventures, but I think he might be planning to focus more on ubran adventures (Sharn: City of Towers and all). Thanks! :)
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 03-24-07, 06:06 PM	Well, some shifters gain a natural attack when shifting. Since a full attack uses all your normal attacks in addition to any natural attacks, that gives a shifter an advantage for sneak attacks. But that isn't your primary concern, so it doesn't offer too much. Also, shifters tend to be pretty feat intensive. It can be good, but for what you want, maybe not. Changelings are great, especially with the racial subs. Let me just say it's the only way I know of to get 10 + INT skill points per level. The racial sub really increases your value as party face, especially for gather info. And gives a chance to negate crits and sneak attack. As always, you give up a few class features, but I'd say it's worth it. I mean other than giving up trap finding. In an intrigue game, it would a no-brainer. You may also want to consider playing a goblin. They make pretty attractive PCs. Favored class rogue, small size, DEX bonus, movement equal to a medium humanoid.
Werebat 03-24-07, 06:26 PM	It's an interesting build, but I'm not sure I want to further dilute the rogue's usefulness in finding and disarming traps, and opening traps (it's already weaker because of the lower Intelligence) by adding ranger levels. I might check with the DM to see if he's planning to have more wilderness adventures, but I think he might be planning to focus more on ubran adventures (Sharn: City of Towers and all). Thanks! :) You're right about the penalty to Int (although remember that this can be alleviated by the bonus to Dex -- swapping a 16 and a 14 around, for example). However, remember that Search IS a class skill for Rangers, so you won't fall behind there. I'd add ranger primarily because of Tracking (with Wilderness Rogue, you'll have max ranks in Survival) and the free TWF feat. The new magic item compendium introduces a +1 weapon ability that adds +1d6 to sneak attack damage, so you won't necessarily be behind the norm in that area either. Usually, when I design a rogue, I leave one skill point column open for "miscellaneous" that can be used to catch up on skills later on; at first I'll use it for a rank or two in jump, swim, appraise, etc. Tumble also works well for this, as eventually your bonus will be so high that you won't need to put any more ranks in it, and can shore up skills you've fallen behind on. Open Locks is also a bit overrated, especially once the party Barbie gets an adamantium greataxe... - Ron ^*^
CelestialBarbarian 03-24-07, 07:40 PM	You're right about the penalty to Int (although remember that this can be alleviated by the bonus to Dex -- swapping a 16 and a 14 around, for example). However, remember that Search IS a class skill for Rangers, so you won't fall behind there. I'd add ranger primarily because of Tracking (with Wilderness Rogue, you'll have max ranks in Survival) and the free TWF feat. The new magic item compendium introduces a +1 weapon ability that adds +1d6 to sneak attack damage, so you won't necessarily be behind the norm in that area either. Usually, when I design a rogue, I leave one skill point column open for "miscellaneous" that can be used to catch up on skills later on; at first I'll use it for a rank or two in jump, swim, appraise, etc. Tumble also works well for this, as eventually your bonus will be so high that you won't need to put any more ranks in it, and can shore up skills you've fallen behind on. Open Locks is also a bit overrated, especially once the party Barbie gets an adamantium greataxe... - Ron ^*^ A halfling rogue can have the same special ability place on a weapon, so the the ability doesn't help the shifter rogue from falling behind on sneak attack damage. Open Locks and Disarm Device become more important, not less important, as the party rises in level and the traps get more lethal and affect more people. As for the wilderness rogue, I'll have to check with the DM as to whether he'll allow it and whether he plans to have more of a wilderness or an urban campaign. I suspect, as I've mentioned, that he's planning more of an urban campaign. I might do the shifter rogue, even if it's suboptimal comared to the halfling rogue, just to help keep the Eberron-flavor of the campaign. I'm less sure about the ranger levels though. They do have some advantage, but some drawbacks as well.
CelestialBarbarian 03-24-07, 08:07 PM	Well, some shifters gain a natural attack when shifting. Since a full attack uses all your normal attacks in addition to any natural attacks, that gives a shifter an advantage for sneak attacks. Are you just saying that a shifter with natural attacks gets more changes to sneak attack when using a full attack action that a halfling rogue would? That's true if the shifter rogue choses one of the shifter traits that grants a natural attack, but none of those grant the additional Dexterity bonus that I'd want. But that isn't your primary concern, so it doesn't offer too much. Also, shifters tend to be pretty feat intensive. It can be good, but for what you want, maybe not. Probably not. Changelings are great, especially with the racial subs. Let me just say it's the only way I know of to get 10 + INT skill points per level. The racial sub really increases your value as party face, especially for gather info. And gives a chance to negate crits and sneak attack. As always, you give up a few class features, but I'd say it's worth it. I mean other than giving up trap finding. In an intrigue game, it would a no-brainer. Yes, when I first looked at the changeling rogue substitution levels the 10 skill points per level looked very attractive. There's no way I'd give up trapfinding, however, so that 1st level substitution level is out. Is the +3 BAB of the 3rd-level substitution level real, or just a typo? The 8th-level substitution level reverts to the average BAB. I could see, if I went with a changeling, taking the substitution levels at 2nd and 8th. You may also want to consider playing a goblin. They make pretty attractive PCs. Favored class rogue, small size, DEX bonus, movement equal to a medium humanoid. That's an interesting option. Goblins don't have to be evil in Eberron. It's a trade with different racial bonuses from the halfling.
Werebat 03-24-07, 11:30 PM	Are you just saying that a shifter with natural attacks gets more changes to sneak attack when using a full attack action that a halfling rogue would? That's true if the shifter rogue choses one of the shifter traits that grants a natural attack, but none of those grant the additional Dexterity bonus that I'd want. Correct. The natural attack you want is the bite from Longtooth, because you can use it while TWF with hand axes (more useful in the woods than short swords) and because it can drain Con with Longtooth Elite. If the Dex bonus is what you want, I'd go with Longstrider as my first trait and then pick Longtooth as a second trait later one, as I said before. Here's one possible build along those lines, eliminating the Ranger levels as well: 1. Wrog1 * (Longstride) Shifter Instincts 2. Wrog2 3. Wrog3 * Weapon Finesse 4. Wrog4 5. Wrog5 6. Wrog6 * Longstride Elite 7. Wrog7 8. Wrog8 9. Wrog9 * TWF 10.Wrog10 11.Wrog11 12.Wrog12 * Extra Shifter Trait (Longtooth) I don't like this because by level 12 you can still shift only twice/day, and would probably be better off with Imp TWF than Longtooth because of that (although Longtooth Elite bites will be draining Con, which is nice as it is an ability that tends to scale with level since your enemies have more HD and lose more hit points from Con loss). OTOH if your DM allows you to use AP to shift extra times per day, it might not be so bad. Technically this is not allowed, though. Really, if you're going to go this way you're better off using the Str bump from Longtooth to close the gap between your Dex and Str bonuses so that Weapon Finesse isn't something you need. That's an interesting option. Goblins don't have to be evil in Eberron. It's a trade with different racial bonuses from the halfling. Goblins are indeed a fine choice for several things in Eberron. They make decent artificers as well as rogues! - Ron ^*^
Lotus Crane 04-15-07, 02:34 PM	Check out Races of Eberron; they have changeling rogue substitution levels which might make you reconsider your choice of race.
BlackTiger 04-15-07, 03:34 PM	For whoever made the point about dipping into ranger, they too have search (if not disable device) as a class skill, and once you know there's a trap, even if you can't disarm it you've got prior warning. I personally played a Longstrider Spellthief-Ranger, one of the coolest characters I have ever penned. Especially if you have a caster heavy party in your Eberron game like I did. Still, as people have said, it all comes down to your type. Shifters make for a very different kind of rogue, and even within the shifters you have alot of leeway. The listed build is a pretty good example, if only one. And, dipping ranger for track and going for Wildhunt Shifter is another good possibility if you know you'll play an urban game. Rogues that can hide and find people hiding regardless of visual stealth have a leg up there.
goblin_pride 04-15-07, 04:12 PM	You may also want to consider playing a goblin. They make pretty attractive PCs. Favored class rogue, small size, DEX bonus, movement equal to a medium humanoid. Don't forget they have a racial move silent +4 in addition to their size's Hide +4. With a +2 Dex on top of that, goblins make fierce little rogues. Plus there's the whole point that no one expects a single goblin to be any kind of threat.
Cifer 04-15-07, 04:18 PM	Open Locks and Disarm Device become more important, not less important, as the party rises in level and the traps get more lethal and affect more people. I very much doubt that. Open Lock becomes outright irrelevant when people can afford putting Knock into a spell slot. Search and its brother Disable Device stay useful, but there are quite a few traps that can be taken out with brute force or a little cunning - insidious arrow trap? Disintegrate or scorch the whole thing!
CelestialBarbarian 04-16-07, 10:08 AM	Don't forget they have a racial move silent +4 in addition to their size's Hide +4. With a +2 Dex on top of that, goblins make fierce little rogues. Plus there's the whole point that no one expects a single goblin to be any kind of threat. It's funny that people posted on this thread again after weeks of quiet, because today we started the Eberron campaign. One of my buddies from the campaign I run wanted to try his hand at running a campaign. We don't have any other players for his campaign yet, and in fact he sort of wanted to start just with me because he doesn't feel too confident yet about his ability to DM. So I'm creating 4 characters. Right now I have a warforged barbarian who will also take some fighter levels on the way to warforged juggernaut, a human cleric of the chaotic good strength and war god (Dol Whatshisname :D), a human wizard, and a goblin rogue. I think the goblin has good benefits for a rogue, as you and Omirahk suggested. I don't even have names for all these guys yet, nor have I fleshed out all their skills and feats (except for the warforged who had to take Adamantine Body), but I have the ability scores and when we needed skill checks for the first little part of the adventure today I just winged it--added the max ranks if it was a class skill to the appropriate ability score modifier. I'll try to have all the little detail nailed down for our next session, but it was fun just to dive in and get started. They've already started developing their own little personalities. I'd planned to play the warforged as my main character (the last one I'll keep if we get three other players) but it was the goblin who I really first started playing today. He's good-hearted but has an annoying, snarky personality. Since we were hired to investigate reports of a disturbance at a shop, it turned out that with his rogue skills he was pretty much on deck the whole time. The warforged has turned out to be excessively polite and even-tempered--perhaps ironically, for a barbarian. I'm thinking of naming him Temper, as it has a triple meaning: it refers not only to his barbarian rage and his even keel, but to the temper of a weapon. The cleric has started out as a bit of a bombastic opponent of evil, and the wizard is a bit arrogant but in a humorous way. The starting hook involved the city watch of Sharn recruiting adventurers to deal with a recent crime wave. We had just read the recruitment poster when we heard a woman complaining to a member of the watch that the watch is incompetent. So my goblin snuck up behind her like he was going to pick her pocket and Temper grabbed him and said, "see her miss! The City Watch had foiled this dastardly villain's criminal attempt to pick your pocket!" And she fell for the bluff and was mollified and left. The Watch sergeant appreciated our performance. We would have gotten the job anyway, but it was more fun to put on a little play for the sergeant. :D