RULES Q: Warforged Meldshapers & Chakra Binds [Archive] - Wizards Community

RULES Q: Warforged Meldshapers & Chakra Binds [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Geregald
04-30-07, 12:56 PM I'm a player of 3 years who's new to DM'ing and only recently acquired Eberron books to fuel the design of my world, but I'm intimately familiar with Magic of Incarnum as it's one of my favorite books.

I have a situation facing me that may affect my Players or NPCs I wish to generate - namely, a Warforged's Composite Plating (and/or Darkwood / Mithral / Adamantine plating) and its interaction with Chakra Binds to the Soul Chakra.

My question, in short:
Can Warforged meldshapers Bind melds to the Soul Chakra?

Using a strict interpretation of the rules, one would assume that Warforged Meldshapers cannot bind Soulmelds to the Soul Chakra, as the Soul Chakra counts as / occupies the same body slot as Armor. Rule excerpts from primary sources follow:

Races of Eberron (p. 8)- "This composite plating occupies the same space on the body as a suit of armor or a robe, and thus a warforged cannot benefit from the effects of magic armor or magic robes."

Magic of Incarnum (p. 51)- "When you bind a soulmeld to a chakra, it usually fuses to your body in the location corresponding to that chakra. It prevents you from gaining any benefit from a magic item that occupies the corresponding body slot. (In many cases, it also prevents you from physically wearing wearing such a magic item, as dictated by common sense and the description of the soulmeld in question.)"

Some things seem obvious-

** Composite Plating (and similar Plating options) provide Armor Bonuses to AC, and thus would overwrite or be overwritten by any Armor Bonus to AC provided (bound or not) by a meld on the Soul Chakra

** An Unarmored Body Warforged has no conflicts with melds occupying the Soul Chakra

** IF a meld is bound to the Soul Chakra, its effects overwrite any magical enhancements the Warforged's Composite Plating (or similar) may have had as if it displaced a suit of armor from a standard character.

However, some matters are questionable-

** Since Composite Plating (or similar) disallows the use of Armor, does it also disallow binding to the Soul Chakra?

** Does a Warforged have to have the Unarmored Body feat or be a 3rd-level Reforged to utilize Chakra Binds to the Soul Chakra?

No other standard character race in the game has an armor restriction as explicitly conflictual or specific to Chakra Binds as Warforgeds; as such, this could could be grounds for an Errata Ruling relevent to Magic of Incarnum and/or Races of Eberron for future reference.

-Geregald
Belabras
04-30-07, 01:03 PM When you bind a soulmeld to a chakra, it usually fuses to your body in the location corresponding to that chakra. It prevents you from gaining any benefit from a magic item that occupies the corresponding body slot. (In many cases, it also prevents you from physically wearing wearing such a magic item, as dictated by common sense and the description of the soulmeld in question.)"

Note the emphasis. The various body feats for 'forged are not magical in nature (or they would have a SU descriptor). So as long as the 'forged's composite plate isn't enchanted, they should be able to bind to their soul chakra.
Geregald
04-30-07, 01:37 PM Note the emphasis. The various body feats for 'forged are not magical in nature (or they would have a SU descriptor). So as long as the 'forged's composite plate isn't enchanted, they should be able to bind to their soul chakra.

The problem lies in this fact:

The most frequent reason a Bound Chakra slot cannot benefit from a Magic Item is because the wearing of the item is physically prevented by the Bound manifestation of the Soulmeld. Furthermore, those Melds which Bind but still allow an item to be worn usually correspond to slots in which items for that slot ONLY confer magical bonuses. (Neck & Shoulders are the best example, where you can still easily wear an amulet overtop a patch of fur from a Totemist Binding or a cloak over any Shoulder binding.)

The Body slot for a Warforged is pecular in terms of interaction with Chakra Binds in that the item, magical or not, cannot be "ejected" or physically prevented from occupying the slot because, unlike other beings, the "armor" is the body.

Similarly, re-read the description of the Warforged Plating, which also discludes the use of magical equipment on the Body slot. This is an incredibly rare exception in which two RAWs are conflicting, and cannot be easily resolved by printing-date due to their mutually-exclusive nature.

** A Bound Soulmeld most certainly counts as a Magic item, which is disallowed in the body slot by Plating - this provides justification for disallowing Soul binds.

** At the same time, magic items worn under/over something bound to the Soul Chakra have magical properties nullified, usually by virtue of "ejecting" the item on the slot as where it attaches to the body which doesn't apply in this case - this provides justification for allowing the Soulbind and the Armor Bonus but not magical bonuses.

** Given that the MoI rules are written and worded in such a fashion as to imply the inavailability of Armor Bonus due to either physical item "ejection" or magical nullification, and given that neither of these options is viable in this case, there is justification for allowing the Bind but applying normal stack/overlap rules to Armor Bonus. (However, this does not resolve the issue that the Soul Bind shouldn't be allowed in the first place due to the Plating's disallowance of magic items in the body slot.)

** All other options failing and given the availability of both the Unarmored Body and Split Chakra feats, one of these should be required... but which based on the nature of the Plating description? (I lean towards Unarmored Body for logic's sake.)

It's quite a pickle. I mostly need opinions of which way to rule... or on an off chance, an official ruling. Trying to find the channels to get an Official Ruling made too.

-Geregald
Belabras
04-30-07, 02:40 PM The most frequent reason a Bound Chakra slot cannot benefit from a Magic Item is because the wearing of the item is physically prevented by the Bound manifestation of the Soulmeld. Furthermore, those Melds which Bind but still allow an item to be worn usually correspond to slots in which items for that slot ONLY confer magical bonuses. (Neck & Shoulders are the best example, where you can still easily wear an amulet overtop a patch of fur from a Totemist Binding or a cloak over any Shoulder binding.)

That is a supposition not supported by the actual text. By RAW you can wear a mundane helm and have Spirit Helm bound to your brow or mundane gauntlets and Mauling Gauntlets bound to your hands. Do you have a House Rule in here you aren't telling us about?

Similarly, re-read the description of the Warforged Plating, which also discludes the use of magical equipment on the Body slot. This is an incredibly rare exception in which two RAWs are conflicting, and cannot be easily resolved by printing-date due to their mutually-exclusive nature.

Physicality issue - the composite plate actually prevents a 'forged from wearing any armor (or robes), magic or not. Soulmelds are not, and in fact are never described as, armor.
Geregald
04-30-07, 03:01 PM That is a supposition not supported by the actual text. By RAW you can wear a mundane helm and have Spirit Helm bound to your brow or mundane gauntlets and Mauling Gauntlets bound to your hands. Do you have a House Rule in here you aren't telling us about?

By RAW, there are indeed instances where you cannot even wear an item with a Bound soulmeld.

MoI (pg. 51)- 2nd Paragraph, halfway through: "For example, if you bind a crystal helm to your crown chakra, the helm settles snugly around your head. It physically prevents you from also wearing another helm (magic or mundane), as well as magically preenting you from gaining the benefit of a magic helm."

That is my support from RAW for all such suppositions, whereby many soulmelds indeed do not allow wearing of an item in the Bound slot. (Most any Hand-, Boot-, Crown-, or Face-Bound soulmeld physically prevents other items from being worn.)

Physicality issue - the composite plate actually prevents a 'forged from wearing any armor (or robes), magic or not. Soulmelds are not, and in fact are never described as, armor.

This point holds water, thus my arguement for why a Soul Chakra-Bound meld should be allowable. The point that they are "not described as armor" is true but directly conflicts with the description of Bound Soulmelds cited above.

Ruling in favor of Soul Bindings, Warforged have the distinct advantage in some cases as they can retain a +5 mundane armor bonus with a Soul Chakra-Bound meld active where others may not (uncertain, keep reading) be able to receive the same benefit. On further case-by-case review of Soul Chakra-bindable Melds, most seem as if they could allow a physical item with some debates over Fellmist Robe and Incarnate Avatar. (The former because it's explicitly described as a "robe of mist" and the latter because it alters your shape.)

Furthermore, this would be a potential dodge around an Incarnate's innate lack of Heavy Armor Proficiency through the Adamantine Body feat - while this is consistent with many other classes lacking Heavy Armor proficiency, most do not gain the "equipment" related benefits an Incarnate can.

The input thus far has me ruling on the side of allowing them, but still some technicalities insofar as how to specifically adjucate this rare, specific case.

-Geregald

PS: Thanks!
Belabras
04-30-07, 03:10 PM Happy to help, in as much as I have. I've probably gone about as far as I can without refering back to the book, but I'll offer one more thing.

As far as the Incarnate/heavy armor issue - yes it can be powerful early on, but it is a trade off. The 'forged is giving up it's level 1 feat, and can Never switch out it's armor. Once you get to about level 4 the benefit starts to level out, and by the time you get to level 10 and up it can even become a hindrance. The issue has actually come up regarding Warforged Psions as well.
Nived
04-30-07, 03:45 PM I'd use the same rule used for Druids and Monks.

Druids and monks cannot use abilities of theirs while wearing armor (or metal armor). However Composite Platting does NOT count for the purposes of Flurry of Blows, Monk Fast Movement, and Druid's Wildshape.

Other body feats DO interfer with those abilities, bese composit plate does not.

Therefore I would HOUSERULE on my table that a Warforged COULD use soul melds PROVIDED he does not have Adimantine, mythril, psiforged, or ironwood, etc body feats.
Geregald
04-30-07, 03:50 PM I'd use the same rule used for Druids and Monks.

Druids and monks cannot use abilities of theirs while wearing armor (or metal armor). However Composite Platting does NOT count for the purposes of Flurry of Blows, Monk Fast Movement, and Druid's Wildshape.

Other body feats DO interfer with those abilities, bese composit plate does not.

Therefore I would HOUSERULE on my table that a Warforged COULD use soul melds PROVIDED he does not have Adimantine, mythril, psiforged, or ironwood, etc body feats.

Not a matter of using Soulmelds themselves, it's a matter of Binding to the Soul Chakra. RAW are perfectly clear that Soulmelds can be shaped over items at any time, but Chakra-Bound Soulmelds can be different.

There is no Armor Restriction to any of the souldmelding classes, at least not in the same way it applies to Druid or Monk as you described. (They are "restricted" in that they aren't proficient with Heavy Armor, but that's a proficiency matter and not an ability restriction.)

Still, thank you very much for the input and any further ponderings on the matter.

-Geregald
Belabras
04-30-07, 08:33 PM Ok, correct me if I'm wrong here, but we are talking specifically about the following Soulmelds:
Fellmist Robe
Incarnate Avatar
Keeneye Lenses
Necrocarnum Shroud
Planar Chausible

Following the rule on page 51, in none of the descriptions of the Soulmelds bound to the Soul chakra for these does it indicate that it would prevent a character from wearing mundane armor, so the 'forged should be alright. The one exception is Incarnate Avatar - but in that case it either prevents the character from wearing any equipment at all, or prevents none.
Geregald
04-30-07, 10:45 PM Technically, those +Mask of the Chimera (from Totemist list); Necrocarnum Shroud is the only one for Soulborn and already counted in the list from Incarnate that you quote.

Of those six (upon individual review), only Incarnate Avatar and Fellmist Robe look to be problematic.

I include Fellmist Robe because unlike the others, its specified as coalescing about the body with the manner of a robe. Technically speaking, this shouldn't matter as it could still be draped over the Warforged's body, but the same is true for a standard Robe whose magical effects (if not wearability, altogether) would be nullified by just the mundane Adamantine Plating, with or without enchantments.

I wouldn't make a leap to an "all or nothing" bid on Incarnate Avatar - for the sake of binding and body occupation, it could be treated as a breastplate (or other appropriate "body" item) with a constant Major Image, except that it actually grants physical properties as well. Again, raises the case of "magical item effect occupying bodyslot," in which case it'd make most sense that if Soul Chakra-Binding is allowed, it would overwrite the Plating's magical properties (and we're still unclear on base mundane Armor Class).

Still... good points.

-Geregald
Zemyla
05-03-07, 04:02 PM What the warforged should do then is use the rules in Magic of Incarnum for adding item features. Specifically, he should add the Incarnum Focus ability to his armor.

This will cost only 22.5k and will allow him to bind soulmelds to his soul chakra.
Cifer
05-04-07, 06:56 AM Physicality issue - the composite plate actually prevents a 'forged from wearing any armor (or robes), magic or not. Soulmelds are not, and in fact are never described as, armor.
Why would it prevent the WF from wearing robes? As long as they're cut rather loosely, I doubt there would be any problems if one can judge from the standard pictures.

But yes, Zemyla has it completely right. The WF will have to wait until he can cough up the cash in order to use his soul chakra.
Belabras
05-04-07, 11:50 AM Why would it prevent the WF from wearing robes? As long as they're cut rather loosely, I doubt there would be any problems if one can judge from the standard pictures.

Because the area on the body is already filled? I know it doesn't make any sense, but the idea that there are only a set number of areas on the body for items, and the inability to stack them, is just a mechanic of the game. The 'forged's Composite Plate is an odder duck than most too.
Geregald
05-04-07, 12:13 PM What the warforged should do then is use the rules in Magic of Incarnum for adding item features. Specifically, he should add the Incarnum Focus ability to his armor.

This will cost only 22.5k and will allow him to bind soulmelds to his soul chakra.

Why would it prevent the WF from wearing robes? As long as they're cut rather loosely, I doubt there would be any problems if one can judge from the standard pictures.

But yes, Zemyla has it completely right. The WF will have to wait until he can cough up the cash in order to use his soul chakra.

This is the 2nd or 3rd time this has come up...

"Incarnum Focus" does not exist as a weapon/armor ability, in either Magic of Incarnum nor Magic Item Compendium. Is this something from Magic of Eberron?

I would like a source citation (book & page) of this Armor Ability, please, as I simply can't find it. All that exists in the books I have is "Soulbound Armor or Shield" which allows you to bind the armor itself to the Soul Chakra, but does not resolve the question of whether or not you can bind a Soulmeld to the Soul Chakra without either the "Unarmored Body" Warforged feat or "Split Chakra" Incarnum Feat.

There are the Incarnum Focus Wondrous magic items, but again, these do not resolve the Warforged issue as Incarnum Focus are, in and of themselves, Magic Items that a Warforged could not use on his Body slot unless he took the Unarmored Body feat. The crux of this problem is not whether or not he can bind a Soulmeld to his Soul Chakra period (as that's determined by character class and/or Feats), but whether or not the mutual excluvisity of Warforged Plating rules & Chakra Bind rules make it impossible.

-Geregald
Zemyla
05-04-07, 12:25 PM Look on page 233 of the Magic Item Compendium, specifically adding new magical abilities to an item.

You can have a magic item that has abilities combined from two items that occupy the same body slot. In this case, you're combining armor enhancement with the ability of the Incarnum Focus Robe (which also occupies the armor/soul slot).

This is the greatest boon to meldshapers since the invention of MoI.
Geregald
05-04-07, 12:54 PM Thanks much!!

I wouldn't call a Wondrous Item effect a "common" item effect to add but I can see how one could use these rules to attain these ends.

I think it'll ultimately be easiest to rule that a Warforged needs to either choose Unarmored Body at 1st level if he wants to eventually Bind melds to the Soul chakra, take the Split Chakra feat, or undergo the process of becoming a Reforged (though this would only apply to Epic levels as the Reforged would eat up 3 levels itself).

Though I now see where people are deriving this ruling from, I'm just not comfortable with counting the specific abilities of a Wondrous Magic Item as a "common" Item Effect that can be added to most anything.

That, and part of the point of Meldshaping classes is that you willingly give up specific item slots in order to be able to change your abilities on a daily basis. Adding the effects of the Incarnum Focus item to armor is either redundant (you still suppress the magical properties of an item worn on the slot when binding a Chakra), or a clear RAW-dodge (since the Incarnum Focus itself is supposed to be a Magic Item that would not allow another, such as gauntlets of ogre strength, to be worn at the same time).

Until Wizards adds some errata on this subject I'm going to avoid this approach, but thank you for pointing it out.

-Geregald
Cifer
05-04-07, 05:36 PM Because the area on the body is already filled? I know it doesn't make any sense, but the idea that there are only a set number of areas on the body for items, and the inability to stack them, is just a mechanic of the game. The 'forged's Composite Plate is an odder duck than most too.
I was referring precisely to the "phyisicality issue" which seemed to imply that it was physically impossible to wear a robe over armor, despite the fact that there are quite a few ways to do so, beginning with a loose robe. And yes, robes over platemail can look really cool...

In terms of rules, I know that it's impossible.
Geregald
05-06-07, 10:24 AM I was referring precisely to the "phyisicality issue" which seemed to imply that it was physically impossible...

In terms of rules, I know that it's impossible.

That's actually the "physicality issue" I was referring to. In terms of game rules, a Warforged's Plating makes it physically impossible for him to wear another body-slot item... even though it makes no sense. Go kill an Ogre Magi, loot his robe, take up the hem (read: Hack off the bottom with a sword)... voila, Warforged robe.

Now, this being said, for LOOKS purposes you can always "wear" a mundane robe... it just can't have any sort've stats whatsoever.

Call me a bit of an aesthetics nut, but this is why I like putting Glamered on all my armor... including having Warforged plating Glamered. Eat that, rule book!!

-Geregald

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Geregald 04-30-07, 12:56 PM	I'm a player of 3 years who's new to DM'ing and only recently acquired Eberron books to fuel the design of my world, but I'm intimately familiar with Magic of Incarnum as it's one of my favorite books. I have a situation facing me that may affect my Players or NPCs I wish to generate - namely, a Warforged's Composite Plating (and/or Darkwood / Mithral / Adamantine plating) and its interaction with Chakra Binds to the Soul Chakra. My question, in short: Can Warforged meldshapers Bind melds to the Soul Chakra? Using a strict interpretation of the rules, one would assume that Warforged Meldshapers cannot bind Soulmelds to the Soul Chakra, as the Soul Chakra counts as / occupies the same body slot as Armor. Rule excerpts from primary sources follow: Races of Eberron (p. 8)- "This composite plating occupies the same space on the body as a suit of armor or a robe, and thus a warforged cannot benefit from the effects of magic armor or magic robes." Magic of Incarnum (p. 51)- "When you bind a soulmeld to a chakra, it usually fuses to your body in the location corresponding to that chakra. It prevents you from gaining any benefit from a magic item that occupies the corresponding body slot. (In many cases, it also prevents you from physically wearing wearing such a magic item, as dictated by common sense and the description of the soulmeld in question.)" Some things seem obvious- Composite Plating (and similar Plating options) provide Armor Bonuses to AC, and thus would overwrite or be overwritten by any Armor Bonus to AC provided (bound or not) by a meld on the Soul Chakra An Unarmored Body Warforged has no conflicts with melds occupying the Soul Chakra IF a meld is bound to the Soul Chakra, its effects overwrite any magical enhancements the Warforged's Composite Plating (or similar) may have had as if it displaced a suit of armor from a standard character. However, some matters are questionable- Since Composite Plating (or similar) disallows the use of Armor, does it also disallow binding to the Soul Chakra? ** Does a Warforged have to have the Unarmored Body feat or be a 3rd-level Reforged to utilize Chakra Binds to the Soul Chakra? No other standard character race in the game has an armor restriction as explicitly conflictual or specific to Chakra Binds as Warforgeds; as such, this could could be grounds for an Errata Ruling relevent to Magic of Incarnum and/or Races of Eberron for future reference. -Geregald
Belabras 04-30-07, 01:03 PM	When you bind a soulmeld to a chakra, it usually fuses to your body in the location corresponding to that chakra. It prevents you from gaining any benefit from a magic item that occupies the corresponding body slot. (In many cases, it also prevents you from physically wearing wearing such a magic item, as dictated by common sense and the description of the soulmeld in question.)" Note the emphasis. The various body feats for 'forged are not magical in nature (or they would have a SU descriptor). So as long as the 'forged's composite plate isn't enchanted, they should be able to bind to their soul chakra.
Geregald 04-30-07, 01:37 PM	Note the emphasis. The various body feats for 'forged are not magical in nature (or they would have a SU descriptor). So as long as the 'forged's composite plate isn't enchanted, they should be able to bind to their soul chakra. The problem lies in this fact: The most frequent reason a Bound Chakra slot cannot benefit from a Magic Item is because the wearing of the item is physically prevented by the Bound manifestation of the Soulmeld. Furthermore, those Melds which Bind but still allow an item to be worn usually correspond to slots in which items for that slot ONLY confer magical bonuses. (Neck & Shoulders are the best example, where you can still easily wear an amulet overtop a patch of fur from a Totemist Binding or a cloak over any Shoulder binding.) The Body slot for a Warforged is pecular in terms of interaction with Chakra Binds in that the item, magical or not, cannot be "ejected" or physically prevented from occupying the slot because, unlike other beings, the "armor" is the body. Similarly, re-read the description of the Warforged Plating, which also discludes the use of magical equipment on the Body slot. This is an incredibly rare exception in which two RAWs are conflicting, and cannot be easily resolved by printing-date due to their mutually-exclusive nature. A Bound Soulmeld most certainly counts as a Magic item, which is disallowed in the body slot by Plating - this provides justification for disallowing Soul binds. At the same time, magic items worn under/over something bound to the Soul Chakra have magical properties nullified, usually by virtue of "ejecting" the item on the slot as where it attaches to the body which doesn't apply in this case - this provides justification for allowing the Soulbind and the Armor Bonus but not magical bonuses. Given that the MoI rules are written and worded in such a fashion as to imply the inavailability of Armor Bonus due to either physical item "ejection" or magical nullification, and given that neither of these options is viable in this case, there is justification for allowing the Bind but applying normal stack/overlap rules to Armor Bonus. (However, this does not resolve the issue that the Soul Bind shouldn't be allowed in the first place due to the Plating's disallowance of magic items in the body slot.) All other options failing and given the availability of both the Unarmored Body and Split Chakra feats, one of these should be required... but which based on the nature of the Plating description? (I lean towards Unarmored Body for logic's sake.) It's quite a pickle. I mostly need opinions of which way to rule... or on an off chance, an official ruling. Trying to find the channels to get an Official Ruling made too. -Geregald
Belabras 04-30-07, 02:40 PM	The most frequent reason a Bound Chakra slot cannot benefit from a Magic Item is because the wearing of the item is physically prevented by the Bound manifestation of the Soulmeld. Furthermore, those Melds which Bind but still allow an item to be worn usually correspond to slots in which items for that slot ONLY confer magical bonuses. (Neck & Shoulders are the best example, where you can still easily wear an amulet overtop a patch of fur from a Totemist Binding or a cloak over any Shoulder binding.) That is a supposition not supported by the actual text. By RAW you can wear a mundane helm and have Spirit Helm bound to your brow or mundane gauntlets and Mauling Gauntlets bound to your hands. Do you have a House Rule in here you aren't telling us about? Similarly, re-read the description of the Warforged Plating, which also discludes the use of magical equipment on the Body slot. This is an incredibly rare exception in which two RAWs are conflicting, and cannot be easily resolved by printing-date due to their mutually-exclusive nature. Physicality issue - the composite plate actually prevents a 'forged from wearing any armor (or robes), magic or not. Soulmelds are not, and in fact are never described as, armor.
Geregald 04-30-07, 03:01 PM	That is a supposition not supported by the actual text. By RAW you can wear a mundane helm and have Spirit Helm bound to your brow or mundane gauntlets and Mauling Gauntlets bound to your hands. Do you have a House Rule in here you aren't telling us about? By RAW, there are indeed instances where you cannot even wear an item with a Bound soulmeld. MoI (pg. 51)- 2nd Paragraph, halfway through: "For example, if you bind a crystal helm to your crown chakra, the helm settles snugly around your head. It physically prevents you from also wearing another helm (magic or mundane), as well as magically preenting you from gaining the benefit of a magic helm." That is my support from RAW for all such suppositions, whereby many soulmelds indeed do not allow wearing of an item in the Bound slot. (Most any Hand-, Boot-, Crown-, or Face-Bound soulmeld physically prevents other items from being worn.) Physicality issue - the composite plate actually prevents a 'forged from wearing any armor (or robes), magic or not. Soulmelds are not, and in fact are never described as, armor. This point holds water, thus my arguement for why a Soul Chakra-Bound meld should be allowable. The point that they are "not described as armor" is true but directly conflicts with the description of Bound Soulmelds cited above. Ruling in favor of Soul Bindings, Warforged have the distinct advantage in some cases as they can retain a +5 mundane armor bonus with a Soul Chakra-Bound meld active where others may not (uncertain, keep reading) be able to receive the same benefit. On further case-by-case review of Soul Chakra-bindable Melds, most seem as if they could allow a physical item with some debates over Fellmist Robe and Incarnate Avatar. (The former because it's explicitly described as a "robe of mist" and the latter because it alters your shape.) Furthermore, this would be a potential dodge around an Incarnate's innate lack of Heavy Armor Proficiency through the Adamantine Body feat - while this is consistent with many other classes lacking Heavy Armor proficiency, most do not gain the "equipment" related benefits an Incarnate can. The input thus far has me ruling on the side of allowing them, but still some technicalities insofar as how to specifically adjucate this rare, specific case. -Geregald PS: Thanks!
Belabras 04-30-07, 03:10 PM	Happy to help, in as much as I have. I've probably gone about as far as I can without refering back to the book, but I'll offer one more thing. As far as the Incarnate/heavy armor issue - yes it can be powerful early on, but it is a trade off. The 'forged is giving up it's level 1 feat, and can Never switch out it's armor. Once you get to about level 4 the benefit starts to level out, and by the time you get to level 10 and up it can even become a hindrance. The issue has actually come up regarding Warforged Psions as well.
Nived 04-30-07, 03:45 PM	I'd use the same rule used for Druids and Monks. Druids and monks cannot use abilities of theirs while wearing armor (or metal armor). However Composite Platting does NOT count for the purposes of Flurry of Blows, Monk Fast Movement, and Druid's Wildshape. Other body feats DO interfer with those abilities, bese composit plate does not. Therefore I would HOUSERULE on my table that a Warforged COULD use soul melds PROVIDED he does not have Adimantine, mythril, psiforged, or ironwood, etc body feats.
Geregald 04-30-07, 03:50 PM	I'd use the same rule used for Druids and Monks. Druids and monks cannot use abilities of theirs while wearing armor (or metal armor). However Composite Platting does NOT count for the purposes of Flurry of Blows, Monk Fast Movement, and Druid's Wildshape. Other body feats DO interfer with those abilities, bese composit plate does not. Therefore I would HOUSERULE on my table that a Warforged COULD use soul melds PROVIDED he does not have Adimantine, mythril, psiforged, or ironwood, etc body feats. Not a matter of using Soulmelds themselves, it's a matter of Binding to the Soul Chakra. RAW are perfectly clear that Soulmelds can be shaped over items at any time, but Chakra-Bound Soulmelds can be different. There is no Armor Restriction to any of the souldmelding classes, at least not in the same way it applies to Druid or Monk as you described. (They are "restricted" in that they aren't proficient with Heavy Armor, but that's a proficiency matter and not an ability restriction.) Still, thank you very much for the input and any further ponderings on the matter. -Geregald
Belabras 04-30-07, 08:33 PM	Ok, correct me if I'm wrong here, but we are talking specifically about the following Soulmelds: Fellmist Robe Incarnate Avatar Keeneye Lenses Necrocarnum Shroud Planar Chausible Following the rule on page 51, in none of the descriptions of the Soulmelds bound to the Soul chakra for these does it indicate that it would prevent a character from wearing mundane armor, so the 'forged should be alright. The one exception is Incarnate Avatar - but in that case it either prevents the character from wearing any equipment at all, or prevents none.
Geregald 04-30-07, 10:45 PM	Technically, those +Mask of the Chimera (from Totemist list); Necrocarnum Shroud is the only one for Soulborn and already counted in the list from Incarnate that you quote. Of those six (upon individual review), only Incarnate Avatar and Fellmist Robe look to be problematic. I include Fellmist Robe because unlike the others, its specified as coalescing about the body with the manner of a robe. Technically speaking, this shouldn't matter as it could still be draped over the Warforged's body, but the same is true for a standard Robe whose magical effects (if not wearability, altogether) would be nullified by just the mundane Adamantine Plating, with or without enchantments. I wouldn't make a leap to an "all or nothing" bid on Incarnate Avatar - for the sake of binding and body occupation, it could be treated as a breastplate (or other appropriate "body" item) with a constant Major Image, except that it actually grants physical properties as well. Again, raises the case of "magical item effect occupying bodyslot," in which case it'd make most sense that if Soul Chakra-Binding is allowed, it would overwrite the Plating's magical properties (and we're still unclear on base mundane Armor Class). Still... good points. -Geregald
Zemyla 05-03-07, 04:02 PM	What the warforged should do then is use the rules in Magic of Incarnum for adding item features. Specifically, he should add the Incarnum Focus ability to his armor. This will cost only 22.5k and will allow him to bind soulmelds to his soul chakra.
Cifer 05-04-07, 06:56 AM	Physicality issue - the composite plate actually prevents a 'forged from wearing any armor (or robes), magic or not. Soulmelds are not, and in fact are never described as, armor. Why would it prevent the WF from wearing robes? As long as they're cut rather loosely, I doubt there would be any problems if one can judge from the standard pictures. But yes, Zemyla has it completely right. The WF will have to wait until he can cough up the cash in order to use his soul chakra.
Belabras 05-04-07, 11:50 AM	Why would it prevent the WF from wearing robes? As long as they're cut rather loosely, I doubt there would be any problems if one can judge from the standard pictures. Because the area on the body is already filled? I know it doesn't make any sense, but the idea that there are only a set number of areas on the body for items, and the inability to stack them, is just a mechanic of the game. The 'forged's Composite Plate is an odder duck than most too.
Geregald 05-04-07, 12:13 PM	What the warforged should do then is use the rules in Magic of Incarnum for adding item features. Specifically, he should add the Incarnum Focus ability to his armor. This will cost only 22.5k and will allow him to bind soulmelds to his soul chakra. Why would it prevent the WF from wearing robes? As long as they're cut rather loosely, I doubt there would be any problems if one can judge from the standard pictures. But yes, Zemyla has it completely right. The WF will have to wait until he can cough up the cash in order to use his soul chakra. This is the 2nd or 3rd time this has come up... "Incarnum Focus" does not exist as a weapon/armor ability, in either Magic of Incarnum nor Magic Item Compendium. Is this something from Magic of Eberron? I would like a source citation (book & page) of this Armor Ability, please, as I simply can't find it. All that exists in the books I have is "Soulbound Armor or Shield" which allows you to bind the armor itself to the Soul Chakra, but does not resolve the question of whether or not you can bind a Soulmeld to the Soul Chakra without either the "Unarmored Body" Warforged feat or "Split Chakra" Incarnum Feat. There are the Incarnum Focus Wondrous magic items, but again, these do not resolve the Warforged issue as Incarnum Focus are, in and of themselves, Magic Items that a Warforged could not use on his Body slot unless he took the Unarmored Body feat. The crux of this problem is not whether or not he can bind a Soulmeld to his Soul Chakra period (as that's determined by character class and/or Feats), but whether or not the mutual excluvisity of Warforged Plating rules & Chakra Bind rules make it impossible. -Geregald
Zemyla 05-04-07, 12:25 PM	Look on page 233 of the Magic Item Compendium, specifically adding new magical abilities to an item. You can have a magic item that has abilities combined from two items that occupy the same body slot. In this case, you're combining armor enhancement with the ability of the Incarnum Focus Robe (which also occupies the armor/soul slot). This is the greatest boon to meldshapers since the invention of MoI.
Geregald 05-04-07, 12:54 PM	Thanks much!! I wouldn't call a Wondrous Item effect a "common" item effect to add but I can see how one could use these rules to attain these ends. I think it'll ultimately be easiest to rule that a Warforged needs to either choose Unarmored Body at 1st level if he wants to eventually Bind melds to the Soul chakra, take the Split Chakra feat, or undergo the process of becoming a Reforged (though this would only apply to Epic levels as the Reforged would eat up 3 levels itself). Though I now see where people are deriving this ruling from, I'm just not comfortable with counting the specific abilities of a Wondrous Magic Item as a "common" Item Effect that can be added to most anything. That, and part of the point of Meldshaping classes is that you willingly give up specific item slots in order to be able to change your abilities on a daily basis. Adding the effects of the Incarnum Focus item to armor is either redundant (you still suppress the magical properties of an item worn on the slot when binding a Chakra), or a clear RAW-dodge (since the Incarnum Focus itself is supposed to be a Magic Item that would not allow another, such as gauntlets of ogre strength, to be worn at the same time). Until Wizards adds some errata on this subject I'm going to avoid this approach, but thank you for pointing it out. -Geregald
Cifer 05-04-07, 05:36 PM	Because the area on the body is already filled? I know it doesn't make any sense, but the idea that there are only a set number of areas on the body for items, and the inability to stack them, is just a mechanic of the game. The 'forged's Composite Plate is an odder duck than most too. I was referring precisely to the "phyisicality issue" which seemed to imply that it was physically impossible to wear a robe over armor, despite the fact that there are quite a few ways to do so, beginning with a loose robe. And yes, robes over platemail can look really cool... In terms of rules, I know that it's impossible.
Geregald 05-06-07, 10:24 AM	I was referring precisely to the "phyisicality issue" which seemed to imply that it was physically impossible... In terms of rules, I know that it's impossible. That's actually the "physicality issue" I was referring to. In terms of game rules, a Warforged's Plating makes it physically impossible for him to wear another body-slot item... even though it makes no sense. Go kill an Ogre Magi, loot his robe, take up the hem (read: Hack off the bottom with a sword)... voila, Warforged robe. Now, this being said, for LOOKS purposes you can always "wear" a mundane robe... it just can't have any sort've stats whatsoever. Call me a bit of an aesthetics nut, but this is why I like putting Glamered on all my armor... including having Warforged plating Glamered. Eat that, rule book!! -Geregald