Shifter and Arcane [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shifter and Arcane [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kavuforged86
12-19-07, 06:59 PM I'm thinking about playing a shifter mage. just asking people for ideas, i wantd to play a warmage but because of thier penalties it really wont work. whats a good arcane shifter?
Edymnion
12-19-07, 10:48 PM Bah, I had a Shifter Artificer, which is about the worst combo you can get, and it was still fun.

Play a character for the flavor, not the mechanics. If you wanna play a Shifter Wizard, then go ahead and play it, and don't worry about not having an 18 Intelligence at lvl 1.
Kreistor2
12-19-07, 11:15 PM Shifters pay on Int and Cha. I don't know of an arcane class that builds off Wis. Someone just grabbed my Complete Divine which has the Shugenja, which IIRC builds on Wis and bears a lot of Arcane-like features. It's still Divine, but the Fire type is aggressive like a Wizard. Will that do you?

You could also choose something that doesn't need the high Int. Duskblade doesn't really require a hugely high Int stat. It has naturally high spells/day and is limited to SL5, so the %age hit you take by having -2 Int isn't large.

What about a Warlock? Again, I don't have the rules at the tips of my fingers, so you might want to look that up.
Arcane Guyver
12-20-07, 06:20 AM A -2 racial penalty to a spellcasting stat is far from making a class unplayable. You can get up to a 14 easily with such a penalty with Standard point buy. Artificer might be tough to pull off...there's probably a good example of when you should take Skill Focus:UMD early on (retraining it away later, of course).

Wizard might be the easiest route to take, simply because they get bonus feats (freeing up your other feats for Shifter feats). Beasthide and Swiftstride are both good ones for casters IMO.
Edymnion
12-20-07, 09:01 AM Yeah, as long as you go for a non-MAD spellcasting class, the -2 is really nothing. All you really need is a 19 by what, 17th level? You start with a 16, you drop the level boost into the stat, and by 12th level your Int/Cha is high enough for 9th level spells, plenty of time.

And yeah, a Shifter Artificer is hard to do because of the hit to it's two primary stats, but it was still one of my favorite Eberron characters.

Play a fun character concept, and just get the rules to support it as best you can. A cool concept should never be thrown away just because you can't min/max it.
Assariel
12-20-07, 01:13 PM I think a Warlock might be fun. You need Charisma for this one, but still it might be nice due to the more or less firm invocation list. Another thing that seems well fitting for me is, that it would be still possible to show some predatory alignment combined with arcane magic.
Well, would be a more evil oriented char maybe.

The question is, if you want that predatory aspect of a shifter, or something totally away from that more towards a book reading wizard thats normally under control?

It seems to me that a Warlock is more towards a sorcerer, but he is not casting spells but invocations as spell-like abilities.
skrap-san
12-20-07, 06:22 PM I like the concept of a wizard who is trying to keep his animalistic emotions in check but from time to time he just "looses it" nothing like a rage or anything, just a loss of temper or shifting in a fight letting his inner beast out.

To me I would be used mostly for roleplaying hooks, naming a few settings where I would have to really restrain myself. If one want to one could work out some mechanics that could be done, but personally I would not do it.
Edymnion
12-20-07, 07:40 PM I like the concept of a wizard who is trying to keep his animalistic emotions in check but from time to time he just "looses it" nothing like a rage or anything, just a loss of temper or shifting in a fight letting his inner beast out. Thats exactly the angle I took with my Artificer. When she got mad, she shifted.
TheKeyofE
12-24-07, 02:06 AM Yeah, as long as you go for a non-MAD spellcasting class, the -2 is really nothing. All you really need is a 19 by what, 17th level? You start with a 16, you drop the level boost into the stat, and by 12th level your Int/Cha is high enough for 9th level spells, plenty of time.

I would be more worried about save DCs than max spell level. Fewer bonus spells would also be a problem. For a warmage or wizard, spell focus (evocation) would help with the first problem, and the second problem would be less of a bother for a warmage than a wizard.

If you were a Warlock, you could either focus on invocations without saves, or take Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast) -- +2 DC! -- for your eldritch essence invocations.

But I agree with Edy. If you have a cool RP concept that the rules don't support, try it anyway and find a way to make it work. Avoid intentionally or needlessly gimping yourself (remember the Stormwind Fallacy), but don't be scared to try something out of the ordinary.

And don't forget about Baristi, the iconic shifter in the ECS. She's a wizard.
Edymnion
12-24-07, 05:49 PM I would be more worried about save DCs than max spell level. Fewer bonus spells would also be a problem.I don't think so. Its a whopping -1 to spell DCs, even without Spell Focus. And what, maybe 1 less bonus spell per level?

None of that makes the combination unplayable, and both of them can be easily overcome with feats and items.

But then, you should stop and look at what you're comparing this all to. A completely pimped out max intelligence character that is pushing things as far as they can go. Thats not a good viewpoint to be coming from. This isn't Diablo II or Neverwinter Nights where the entire success/failure of your character depends on being the most munched out uber-monster in the game. Its D&D, and more specifically, its Eberron. You don't need to be the most impressive caster in the world. Just the fact that you are a PC class spellcaster thats above like level 3 already puts you as one of the most elite spellcasters on the planet, anything beyond that is just gravy.
minoritarian
12-29-07, 07:57 AM I quite like the idea of a shifter wizard taking escalation mage and working escalations to be another aspect of their shifting, they get mad and they either express it physically (shift) or arcanely (escalation). Admitedly it depends if you want to have a worshipper of the Shadow as your character.
crimson-defender
12-29-07, 04:13 PM All that matters is that you have fun with your person. It does not matter how good they are.
Arcane Guyver
12-29-07, 09:38 PM All that matters is that you have fun with your person. It does not matter how good they are.

I'm not so sure this is a good position to have. I could probably have loads of fun playing an 8 Int & Wis Half-Elf Commoner named "Anchor," but I doubt the rest of the group would appreciate me tagging along and soaking up their XP.

Don't worry about making the most powerful character ever, just try to make one about on par with the rest of the party.
Tordak
01-02-08, 11:46 PM Also, keep two things in mind :

1- Having a low spellcasting stat does no prevent you from having access to higher level slots, just learning higher level spells. You can make good use of metamagic and loading you higher level slot with lower level spells;

2- If you're afraid your DC will suck, there are plenty of feat there to make alternate use of you spell slots : with a few rogue level razing strike is awesome, arcane strikes is always good, if you're a sorcerer you can take dragon heritage and take something like the dragon breath feat, or blue dragon lineage (no save, no SR, good dmg output), reserve feat from complete mage will help you make up for fewer bonus spell slots, etc. The Spell Shield alternate class feature for Sorcerers from Dungeonscape is quite strong (it's similar to the Elan's resilience from XPH), and Stalwart Sorcerer from Complete Mage give you advantages if you're the fighting type.

And like it's been said before, by the time you get to higher level you'll have so many chances to rise you spellcasting stats, even with a starting 12 you could easily get 26 at level 20, and with a few feats and magic item you can boost your DCs well over 30 for your 9th level spells. You can also take feats like improved and reactive counterspelling to become a strong annoyance for enemy casters. If you bent on fighting, you can get good kicks from polymorph, and you can easily take advantage of PrC requiering arcane spellcasting that are extremely well suited for your shifter (Rage Mage, Flux Adept (Dragon Compedium); there are so many others too).
Edymnion
01-07-08, 08:36 AM Yeah, and you can always just get a Headband of Intellect. Nobody ever said you had to have a NATURAL 19 in Intelligence to get 9th level spells, after all. You just wouldn't be able to cast those higher level spells without it.

Heck, just reflavor the HoI into a shifter braid that takes up the headband slot.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
01-07-08, 05:19 PM If you want to go wizard, you could try a self buffing transmuter. Beasthide is a good trait. Dump Enchantment, Necromancy or Illusion and load up on Transmutation and Abjuration. Take "improved toughness" as soon as you can (6th level, I think). INT is obviously important, but since high saving throw DCs aren't as important to transmuters, you should focus on CON.

Dread Necromancer (HoH) could be fun as well. Many of it's spells are touch attacks so the beasthide's durability is good. Same goes for Shadowcaster (ToM) but since it needs both INT and CHA your disadvantages double.

A shifter Duskblade (PHBII) could be really fun, too.

Just my two crowns.
Edymnion
01-07-08, 09:13 PM Dread Necromancer (HoH) could be fun as well. Many of it's spells are touch attacks so the beasthide's durability is good.I'd be more likely to say you want razorclaw for a dread necro, since you can deliver their touch through any unarmed attack, including your natural attacks. Damn, now thats just a cool image, a shifter dread necro with the classic gaunt appearance, with black mist like energy trailing tendrils down their long sharp claws.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
01-07-08, 10:36 PM I'd be more likely to say you want razorclaw for a dread necro, since you can deliver their touch through any unarmed attack, including your natural attacks. Damn, now thats just a cool image, a shifter dread necro with the classic gaunt appearance, with black mist like energy trailing tendrils down their long sharp claws.

Look at it this way: Start with beasthide ('cause a CON bonus is nice) then take the extra trait feat.

That cake you have? Yeah, you can eat it.
kelvinaw273
01-13-08, 01:43 PM But I agree with Edy. If you have a cool RP concept that the rules don't support, try it anyway and find a way to make it work. Avoid intentionally or needlessly gimping yourself (remember the Stormwind Fallacy), but don't be scared to try something out of the ordinary.

Not trying to raise a storm in a teacup here, but Stormwind has nothing to do with gimping your own character - gimping your character is silly no matter which way you look at it, fallacy or no fallacy.

Seriously though Shifters make for decent gish builds; they can make good wilders and sorcerers, and probably duskblades or even beguilers - and I played with a psychic warrior concept that looked good too. This works because most shifter traits are combat oriented, of those that aren't, Dreamsight is probably the best for a caster - it may not be boosting your casting stat, but +1 to Will saves from the Wisdom increase cannot hurt, and the ability to see invisible (Dreamsight Elite I believe) gives you a free spell-slot.

In a way it's what I'm doing with a Razerclaw shifter ranger 1/Spirit Shaman 5 I'm playing at the moment: although I'm using the Druid spell list, the effect is the same where I'm stocking on heals, buffs and attack spells, sitting back and hurling them in (along with supporting missile fire), and shifting as a last resort for melee (I don't bother with a melee weapon) if the enemy get too close.

It works for me.

One thing to remember is that by pumping your mental stats (or at least one of them) you will lose on your physical ones, so choose which you intend to capitalize on - dex is where you get your bonus, and is a good choice for an 'agile' gish.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kavuforged86 12-19-07, 06:59 PM	I'm thinking about playing a shifter mage. just asking people for ideas, i wantd to play a warmage but because of thier penalties it really wont work. whats a good arcane shifter?
Edymnion 12-19-07, 10:48 PM	Bah, I had a Shifter Artificer, which is about the worst combo you can get, and it was still fun. Play a character for the flavor, not the mechanics. If you wanna play a Shifter Wizard, then go ahead and play it, and don't worry about not having an 18 Intelligence at lvl 1.
Kreistor2 12-19-07, 11:15 PM	Shifters pay on Int and Cha. I don't know of an arcane class that builds off Wis. Someone just grabbed my Complete Divine which has the Shugenja, which IIRC builds on Wis and bears a lot of Arcane-like features. It's still Divine, but the Fire type is aggressive like a Wizard. Will that do you? You could also choose something that doesn't need the high Int. Duskblade doesn't really require a hugely high Int stat. It has naturally high spells/day and is limited to SL5, so the %age hit you take by having -2 Int isn't large. What about a Warlock? Again, I don't have the rules at the tips of my fingers, so you might want to look that up.
Arcane Guyver 12-20-07, 06:20 AM	A -2 racial penalty to a spellcasting stat is far from making a class unplayable. You can get up to a 14 easily with such a penalty with Standard point buy. Artificer might be tough to pull off...there's probably a good example of when you should take Skill Focus:UMD early on (retraining it away later, of course). Wizard might be the easiest route to take, simply because they get bonus feats (freeing up your other feats for Shifter feats). Beasthide and Swiftstride are both good ones for casters IMO.
Edymnion 12-20-07, 09:01 AM	Yeah, as long as you go for a non-MAD spellcasting class, the -2 is really nothing. All you really need is a 19 by what, 17th level? You start with a 16, you drop the level boost into the stat, and by 12th level your Int/Cha is high enough for 9th level spells, plenty of time. And yeah, a Shifter Artificer is hard to do because of the hit to it's two primary stats, but it was still one of my favorite Eberron characters. Play a fun character concept, and just get the rules to support it as best you can. A cool concept should never be thrown away just because you can't min/max it.
Assariel 12-20-07, 01:13 PM	I think a Warlock might be fun. You need Charisma for this one, but still it might be nice due to the more or less firm invocation list. Another thing that seems well fitting for me is, that it would be still possible to show some predatory alignment combined with arcane magic. Well, would be a more evil oriented char maybe. The question is, if you want that predatory aspect of a shifter, or something totally away from that more towards a book reading wizard thats normally under control? It seems to me that a Warlock is more towards a sorcerer, but he is not casting spells but invocations as spell-like abilities.
skrap-san 12-20-07, 06:22 PM	I like the concept of a wizard who is trying to keep his animalistic emotions in check but from time to time he just "looses it" nothing like a rage or anything, just a loss of temper or shifting in a fight letting his inner beast out. To me I would be used mostly for roleplaying hooks, naming a few settings where I would have to really restrain myself. If one want to one could work out some mechanics that could be done, but personally I would not do it.
Edymnion 12-20-07, 07:40 PM	I like the concept of a wizard who is trying to keep his animalistic emotions in check but from time to time he just "looses it" nothing like a rage or anything, just a loss of temper or shifting in a fight letting his inner beast out. Thats exactly the angle I took with my Artificer. When she got mad, she shifted.
TheKeyofE 12-24-07, 02:06 AM	Yeah, as long as you go for a non-MAD spellcasting class, the -2 is really nothing. All you really need is a 19 by what, 17th level? You start with a 16, you drop the level boost into the stat, and by 12th level your Int/Cha is high enough for 9th level spells, plenty of time. I would be more worried about save DCs than max spell level. Fewer bonus spells would also be a problem. For a warmage or wizard, spell focus (evocation) would help with the first problem, and the second problem would be less of a bother for a warmage than a wizard. If you were a Warlock, you could either focus on invocations without saves, or take Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast) -- +2 DC! -- for your eldritch essence invocations. But I agree with Edy. If you have a cool RP concept that the rules don't support, try it anyway and find a way to make it work. Avoid intentionally or needlessly gimping yourself (remember the Stormwind Fallacy), but don't be scared to try something out of the ordinary. And don't forget about Baristi, the iconic shifter in the ECS. She's a wizard.
Edymnion 12-24-07, 05:49 PM	I would be more worried about save DCs than max spell level. Fewer bonus spells would also be a problem.I don't think so. Its a whopping -1 to spell DCs, even without Spell Focus. And what, maybe 1 less bonus spell per level? None of that makes the combination unplayable, and both of them can be easily overcome with feats and items. But then, you should stop and look at what you're comparing this all to. A completely pimped out max intelligence character that is pushing things as far as they can go. Thats not a good viewpoint to be coming from. This isn't Diablo II or Neverwinter Nights where the entire success/failure of your character depends on being the most munched out uber-monster in the game. Its D&D, and more specifically, its Eberron. You don't need to be the most impressive caster in the world. Just the fact that you are a PC class spellcaster thats above like level 3 already puts you as one of the most elite spellcasters on the planet, anything beyond that is just gravy.
minoritarian 12-29-07, 07:57 AM	I quite like the idea of a shifter wizard taking escalation mage and working escalations to be another aspect of their shifting, they get mad and they either express it physically (shift) or arcanely (escalation). Admitedly it depends if you want to have a worshipper of the Shadow as your character.
crimson-defender 12-29-07, 04:13 PM	All that matters is that you have fun with your person. It does not matter how good they are.
Arcane Guyver 12-29-07, 09:38 PM	All that matters is that you have fun with your person. It does not matter how good they are. I'm not so sure this is a good position to have. I could probably have loads of fun playing an 8 Int & Wis Half-Elf Commoner named "Anchor," but I doubt the rest of the group would appreciate me tagging along and soaking up their XP. Don't worry about making the most powerful character ever, just try to make one about on par with the rest of the party.
Tordak 01-02-08, 11:46 PM	Also, keep two things in mind : 1- Having a low spellcasting stat does no prevent you from having access to higher level slots, just learning higher level spells. You can make good use of metamagic and loading you higher level slot with lower level spells; 2- If you're afraid your DC will suck, there are plenty of feat there to make alternate use of you spell slots : with a few rogue level razing strike is awesome, arcane strikes is always good, if you're a sorcerer you can take dragon heritage and take something like the dragon breath feat, or blue dragon lineage (no save, no SR, good dmg output), reserve feat from complete mage will help you make up for fewer bonus spell slots, etc. The Spell Shield alternate class feature for Sorcerers from Dungeonscape is quite strong (it's similar to the Elan's resilience from XPH), and Stalwart Sorcerer from Complete Mage give you advantages if you're the fighting type. And like it's been said before, by the time you get to higher level you'll have so many chances to rise you spellcasting stats, even with a starting 12 you could easily get 26 at level 20, and with a few feats and magic item you can boost your DCs well over 30 for your 9th level spells. You can also take feats like improved and reactive counterspelling to become a strong annoyance for enemy casters. If you bent on fighting, you can get good kicks from polymorph, and you can easily take advantage of PrC requiering arcane spellcasting that are extremely well suited for your shifter (Rage Mage, Flux Adept (Dragon Compedium); there are so many others too).
Edymnion 01-07-08, 08:36 AM	Yeah, and you can always just get a Headband of Intellect. Nobody ever said you had to have a NATURAL 19 in Intelligence to get 9th level spells, after all. You just wouldn't be able to cast those higher level spells without it. Heck, just reflavor the HoI into a shifter braid that takes up the headband slot.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 01-07-08, 05:19 PM	If you want to go wizard, you could try a self buffing transmuter. Beasthide is a good trait. Dump Enchantment, Necromancy or Illusion and load up on Transmutation and Abjuration. Take "improved toughness" as soon as you can (6th level, I think). INT is obviously important, but since high saving throw DCs aren't as important to transmuters, you should focus on CON. Dread Necromancer (HoH) could be fun as well. Many of it's spells are touch attacks so the beasthide's durability is good. Same goes for Shadowcaster (ToM) but since it needs both INT and CHA your disadvantages double. A shifter Duskblade (PHBII) could be really fun, too. Just my two crowns.
Edymnion 01-07-08, 09:13 PM	Dread Necromancer (HoH) could be fun as well. Many of it's spells are touch attacks so the beasthide's durability is good.I'd be more likely to say you want razorclaw for a dread necro, since you can deliver their touch through any unarmed attack, including your natural attacks. Damn, now thats just a cool image, a shifter dread necro with the classic gaunt appearance, with black mist like energy trailing tendrils down their long sharp claws.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 01-07-08, 10:36 PM	I'd be more likely to say you want razorclaw for a dread necro, since you can deliver their touch through any unarmed attack, including your natural attacks. Damn, now thats just a cool image, a shifter dread necro with the classic gaunt appearance, with black mist like energy trailing tendrils down their long sharp claws. Look at it this way: Start with beasthide ('cause a CON bonus is nice) then take the extra trait feat. That cake you have? Yeah, you can eat it.
kelvinaw273 01-13-08, 01:43 PM	But I agree with Edy. If you have a cool RP concept that the rules don't support, try it anyway and find a way to make it work. Avoid intentionally or needlessly gimping yourself (remember the Stormwind Fallacy), but don't be scared to try something out of the ordinary. Not trying to raise a storm in a teacup here, but Stormwind has nothing to do with gimping your own character - gimping your character is silly no matter which way you look at it, fallacy or no fallacy. Seriously though Shifters make for decent gish builds; they can make good wilders and sorcerers, and probably duskblades or even beguilers - and I played with a psychic warrior concept that looked good too. This works because most shifter traits are combat oriented, of those that aren't, Dreamsight is probably the best for a caster - it may not be boosting your casting stat, but +1 to Will saves from the Wisdom increase cannot hurt, and the ability to see invisible (Dreamsight Elite I believe) gives you a free spell-slot. In a way it's what I'm doing with a Razerclaw shifter ranger 1/Spirit Shaman 5 I'm playing at the moment: although I'm using the Druid spell list, the effect is the same where I'm stocking on heals, buffs and attack spells, sitting back and hurling them in (along with supporting missile fire), and shifting as a last resort for melee (I don't bother with a melee weapon) if the enemy get too close. It works for me. One thing to remember is that by pumping your mental stats (or at least one of them) you will lose on your physical ones, so choose which you intend to capitalize on - dex is where you get your bonus, and is a good choice for an 'agile' gish.