Shifter Druid Substitution Levels: Worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shifter Druid Substitution Levels: Worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Azuki
09-05-07, 11:46 AM So, I'm about to start playing DnD again, which is yay, seeing as I haven't gotten to roll dice all summer. The group I'll be joining is in a sort of GeneriEberron setting, in that we're using Eberron races and sourcebooks, but currently the action's set in some sort of generically icy area. If I see anything shiny in Frostburn, I am encouraged to take advantage of it. The group had some recent player hemmoraging via newbies that didn't mesh with the playstyle and one rather embarrassingly killed party member. I asked what niches needed to be filled in the group, and they said "Anything. We've only got a monk, a fighter/wizard aiming for spellsword, and a very social bard. Trust me, anything you feel like playing will add to our competency." Maybe they also have a rogue, I don't recall.

So I thought about it, and decided to head right for what I knew would be powerful and flexible. The god ol' CoDzilla.

I think I'll stop rambling now so that you guys don't get bored and wander off, though. I'm rolling up a 4th level druid shifter with intentions of angling for Moonspeaker. But that's four levels off, and the game's been leveling fairly slowly-like. My current concern is:

Are the shifter substituion levels worth it?

The level four one looks pretty good: a small hit to my Will save in exchange for a boost to initiative and Reflex save, which is weak. I have no intention of giving up the sweet sweet Wild Shape, so the level 5 one is out of the question. It's Beast Shape versus Animal Companion that's puzzling me.

On the one hand, I have a bad habit of forgetting about and forgetting to use my animal companions in battles or what-have-you all the time, so swapping out a feature I'd never taken advantage of for one that's more self-contained and easy to use/remember seems attractive. On the other hand, having an animal companion is pretty cool, and I'm getting the impression that many people consider it to be a useful/powerful feature.

Beast Shape is seems to be designed with the idea of encouraging the Shifter Druid to mix things up in combat a bit more personally, with the option to buff summoned animals with it instead.

Taking both levels of the racial Substitution is also more desirable because Balance/Climb/Jump are class skills for those levels.

Closing Notes: I'm not looking to powergame the system for all its worth here, moreso I'm looking for choices that mean I don't have to try hard to be effective. I'm the sort of person that will disregard Ultimate Minmax Power if it doesn't work with my character concept. I'm interested in the difference between how Beast Shape and Animal Companion would play out. Furthermore, is taking a higher-level animal companion worth it, as compared to taking a lower-level one with a greater number of as-you-level powers. (I have a special weakness for Dire Badgers and Weasels. And the Branta in Frostburn looks nifty as well)

Thank you for your input, everyone!

(Also posted to the Character Optimization Board, I just thought I'd try and reach the largest possible audience.)
Salla
09-09-07, 03:07 AM I think I answered over there, too, but I can't recall ... anyway, the Shifter sub levels are cool, but the standard druid is the most powerful class in the game bar none.
ZeroSD
09-09-07, 04:17 AM Which, by extension, means you can generally swap out a few things and still be in the 'don't have to strain to be effective' range.

Don't use animal companion much? Swap it if you think you'll use the replacement and don't worry about power.
lonewolf
09-12-07, 06:44 AM I really like the Beast spirit.
Especially f youre going moonspeaker, your animal companion will lack power later on and will die quite easily, while the Beast spirit gives you a bump that is always nice.
glug
09-13-07, 09:05 AM Same. My shifter druid just hit 9 I think, and is a moonspeaker. Of course I kept wild shape, but I took the level 1 and 4 subs. Beast Spirit is nice.. by default I walk around with +2 con, but I can change that if necessary. Even if you're not going to saunter right in to melee, the added initiative helps you get your spells off earlier. Which, by the way, is something that makes me sad. I never get to use all of my lightning bolts, so I have fallen out of love with nature. =(
korcheck
09-13-07, 06:21 PM Conversely if you stick with the animal companion (though I agree once into the moonspeaker class they grow weak quickly unless your dm allows you to let them continue leveling by the book with you which mine did or is this a given? it's been awhile) I did some research and found that a starting animal companion actually becomes more dangerous and powerful then most of the later level animals even after you add in the companion levels to them.
Consider this, if you have a wolf to start and look at the book you will note that their HD goes up then if you cross reference the MM you will note that on top of the bonuses they get to stats from being a companion they also grow in size when they reach the proper HD requirement in the MM for that animal. So, my wolf can be huge size by 20 IIRC and gets all the bumps (and negatives) that go with it. He is stronger and faster than a tiger and has more tricks learned then a pallys mount. At 7th level my wolf was taking out creatures of higher CR than he was before I pumped him up with spells. Of course you will have to put money into magic items for protection of a companion which is money that can be spent on yourself so there is also that to keep in mind.
lonewolf
09-13-07, 06:27 PM @korcheck: This has been clarified in the FAQ: Animal companions dont recieve size increases when they gain HD.
korcheck
09-13-07, 06:44 PM @korcheck: This has been clarified in the FAQ: Animal companions dont recieve size increases when they gain HD.

Well then thank goodness none of the group I'm with read the FAQ but I must say its to bad they don't it would make sense for a druid companion to do so. Though I suppose this was decided to appease the "druids are too powerful!" group abit. well then I say drop the damn animals as soon as you reach the right level every time or you'll be running around with a creatures snack by your side instead of a companion very quickly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azuki 09-05-07, 11:46 AM	So, I'm about to start playing DnD again, which is yay, seeing as I haven't gotten to roll dice all summer. The group I'll be joining is in a sort of GeneriEberron setting, in that we're using Eberron races and sourcebooks, but currently the action's set in some sort of generically icy area. If I see anything shiny in Frostburn, I am encouraged to take advantage of it. The group had some recent player hemmoraging via newbies that didn't mesh with the playstyle and one rather embarrassingly killed party member. I asked what niches needed to be filled in the group, and they said "Anything. We've only got a monk, a fighter/wizard aiming for spellsword, and a very social bard. Trust me, anything you feel like playing will add to our competency." Maybe they also have a rogue, I don't recall. So I thought about it, and decided to head right for what I knew would be powerful and flexible. The god ol' CoDzilla. I think I'll stop rambling now so that you guys don't get bored and wander off, though. I'm rolling up a 4th level druid shifter with intentions of angling for Moonspeaker. But that's four levels off, and the game's been leveling fairly slowly-like. My current concern is: Are the shifter substituion levels worth it? The level four one looks pretty good: a small hit to my Will save in exchange for a boost to initiative and Reflex save, which is weak. I have no intention of giving up the sweet sweet Wild Shape, so the level 5 one is out of the question. It's Beast Shape versus Animal Companion that's puzzling me. On the one hand, I have a bad habit of forgetting about and forgetting to use my animal companions in battles or what-have-you all the time, so swapping out a feature I'd never taken advantage of for one that's more self-contained and easy to use/remember seems attractive. On the other hand, having an animal companion is pretty cool, and I'm getting the impression that many people consider it to be a useful/powerful feature. Beast Shape is seems to be designed with the idea of encouraging the Shifter Druid to mix things up in combat a bit more personally, with the option to buff summoned animals with it instead. Taking both levels of the racial Substitution is also more desirable because Balance/Climb/Jump are class skills for those levels. Closing Notes: I'm not looking to powergame the system for all its worth here, moreso I'm looking for choices that mean I don't have to try hard to be effective. I'm the sort of person that will disregard Ultimate Minmax Power if it doesn't work with my character concept. I'm interested in the difference between how Beast Shape and Animal Companion would play out. Furthermore, is taking a higher-level animal companion worth it, as compared to taking a lower-level one with a greater number of as-you-level powers. (I have a special weakness for Dire Badgers and Weasels. And the Branta in Frostburn looks nifty as well) Thank you for your input, everyone! (Also posted to the Character Optimization Board, I just thought I'd try and reach the largest possible audience.)
Salla 09-09-07, 03:07 AM	I think I answered over there, too, but I can't recall ... anyway, the Shifter sub levels are cool, but the standard druid is the most powerful class in the game bar none.
ZeroSD 09-09-07, 04:17 AM	Which, by extension, means you can generally swap out a few things and still be in the 'don't have to strain to be effective' range. Don't use animal companion much? Swap it if you think you'll use the replacement and don't worry about power.
lonewolf 09-12-07, 06:44 AM	I really like the Beast spirit. Especially f youre going moonspeaker, your animal companion will lack power later on and will die quite easily, while the Beast spirit gives you a bump that is always nice.
glug 09-13-07, 09:05 AM	Same. My shifter druid just hit 9 I think, and is a moonspeaker. Of course I kept wild shape, but I took the level 1 and 4 subs. Beast Spirit is nice.. by default I walk around with +2 con, but I can change that if necessary. Even if you're not going to saunter right in to melee, the added initiative helps you get your spells off earlier. Which, by the way, is something that makes me sad. I never get to use all of my lightning bolts, so I have fallen out of love with nature. =(
korcheck 09-13-07, 06:21 PM	Conversely if you stick with the animal companion (though I agree once into the moonspeaker class they grow weak quickly unless your dm allows you to let them continue leveling by the book with you which mine did or is this a given? it's been awhile) I did some research and found that a starting animal companion actually becomes more dangerous and powerful then most of the later level animals even after you add in the companion levels to them. Consider this, if you have a wolf to start and look at the book you will note that their HD goes up then if you cross reference the MM you will note that on top of the bonuses they get to stats from being a companion they also grow in size when they reach the proper HD requirement in the MM for that animal. So, my wolf can be huge size by 20 IIRC and gets all the bumps (and negatives) that go with it. He is stronger and faster than a tiger and has more tricks learned then a pallys mount. At 7th level my wolf was taking out creatures of higher CR than he was before I pumped him up with spells. Of course you will have to put money into magic items for protection of a companion which is money that can be spent on yourself so there is also that to keep in mind.
lonewolf 09-13-07, 06:27 PM	@korcheck: This has been clarified in the FAQ: Animal companions dont recieve size increases when they gain HD.
korcheck 09-13-07, 06:44 PM	@korcheck: This has been clarified in the FAQ: Animal companions dont recieve size increases when they gain HD. Well then thank goodness none of the group I'm with read the FAQ but I must say its to bad they don't it would make sense for a druid companion to do so. Though I suppose this was decided to appease the "druids are too powerful!" group abit. well then I say drop the damn animals as soon as you reach the right level every time or you'll be running around with a creatures snack by your side instead of a companion very quickly.