Shifter Frontline ability? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shifter Frontline ability? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Moosh Nailo
10-01-07, 06:31 PM Thinking about playing a shifter psychic warrior, and wondering which shifter ability I should have as the front line warrior in a group.
I figure Beasthide would be the best, for several reasons. First, none of the abilities that grant you natural weapons stand up to the psywar powers (you can get basically any natural weapon through them). Second, as I'd most likely be a frontliner, constitution and AC seemed a better choice than Dex and an improved form of movement.

Does this make sense? Does anyone agree, disagree, have other ideas?
Thanks
Salla
10-01-07, 10:15 PM Works for me. :)
Arryn
10-01-07, 10:33 PM As the player of a frontline fighter Shifter, I have to say that Beasthide is VERY useful. If you have the extra feat I highly recommend Beasthide Elite for that delicious +4 to AC.
Moosh Nailo
10-01-07, 10:41 PM Haha thanks for your support, Salla. And Beasthide Elite goes without saying :D
TheKeyofE
10-02-07, 12:24 AM Yes, Moosh, go Beasthide. I had the idea for a shifter psywar a couple months ago (although I never played him -- check the "Characters You Really Want to Play" thread), and beasthide is easily the most useful.

EDIT: another bonus (albeit a small one, but still) is it makes your magic item acquisition easier. Normally, a frontliner will fill his neck slot with an amulet of natural armor or a periapt of health. A psywar has to fill that slot with a periapt of wisdom so he can get more PP, meaning his AC will suffer slightly. A Beasthide shifter gets natural armor from shifting, so he doesn't have to worry about that conflict. The CON bonus also helps alleviate problems with a psywar's MAD issues (they can't dump WIS like most warrior types).
Salla
10-02-07, 12:35 AM As a side note, did anybody else read the thread title, see 'Shifter' and 'Frontline' and expect some reference to the Flea and Tick medicine?
Edymnion
10-02-07, 12:34 PM On a differant note, you should check the psiwar powers. They get several vampiric powers that can only be applied to natural weapons, and hence you may want to at least pick up a secondary trait for claws or a bite.
TheKeyofE
10-02-07, 02:10 PM Claws of the Beast and Bite of the Wolf specifically say they count as natural weapons. Claws of the Vampire and similar powers specifically say they can be applied to any natural weapon, including Claws of the Beast.

(sorry, I'm a psi-lawyer, it can't be helped)
Moosh Nailo
10-02-07, 04:46 PM Never even thought of that Key, thanks. And I was looking at that, Edy, and Key is right, the powers count. Thanks though.
On another note, is it worth taking all the natural attack powers? Claws, Bite, and the Tail attack (which book is this one in again?). Claws would seem the most sensible one, with a duration of several hours, and the possible benefit of Claws of the Vampire.
Edymnion
10-02-07, 05:41 PM Yes, but there are limits to how many powers you know, and how many actions you get in combat. Why spend a round and a power known for manifesting a natural weapon, when you can shift to get it?
Belabras
10-02-07, 06:59 PM Yes, but there are limits to how many powers you know, and how many actions you get in combat. Why spend a round and a power known for manifesting a natural weapon, when you can shift to get it?

Listen to Edymnion. In order for a regular Psywar to buff his natural weapons, he has to first manifest them. So you are looking at 1 round for Claws of the Beast, 1 round for Bite of the Wolf, and an additional round just for Vampiric Claw.

Pick up the right shifter traits and it looks more like: Shift to get claw and bite attacks as a swift action AND manifest Vampiric Claw to buff your new weapons, all in 1 round.

A lot of fights are almost over after 3 rounds. Not after 1.
TheKeyofE
10-03-07, 02:26 AM Listen to Edymnion. In order for a regular Psywar to buff his natural weapons, he has to first manifest them. So you are looking at 1 round for Claws of the Beast, 1 round for Bite of the Wolf, and an additional round just for Vampiric Claw.

Pick up the right shifter traits and it looks more like: Shift to get claw and bite attacks as a swift action AND manifest Vampiric Claw to buff your new weapons, all in 1 round.

A lot of fights are almost over after 3 rounds. Not after 1.

This argument is valid for Bite of the Wolf, but not Claws of the Beast. Claws is a swift action to manifest, and lasts hours/level (not to mention you can turn it on and off at will anytime during the duration).

Also note that Claws specifically says you can't attack with another weapon (either manufactured or natural) and still get claw attacks. That means Claws of the Beast and Bite of the Wolf don't mix.

So I guess there would be an argument for taking the Razorclaw trait plus Bite of the Wolf to get two claws and a bite, but in that case I would rather just use a greatsword and a bite.
Nightshade
10-03-07, 06:52 PM I agree with the OP's assessment. Beasthide IS the best Shifter Trait for a frontline fighter or psiwar. But Edy is right that you might want to pick up Longtooth or razorclaws with the additional shifter trait feat to make your pc better.
Moosh Nailo
10-03-07, 06:57 PM See Key's response. The swift activation and hours/level duration of Claws of the Beast is the kicker. IMO it is a better combination to take Claws of the Beast and Beasthide (elite) than Razorclaw and Longtooth. First, it isn't as much of a feat-sucker (not that that is as much of an issue with psywar). Second, cotb lasts significantly longer than a shift. And although beasthide lasts just as long as razorclaw, I'd argue that it is more useful to be able to freely add AC rather than a natural attack that I have easy access to a better version of. If that makes any sense at all

@Nightshade: I can see myself possibly grabbing Longtooth later, while not taking Bite of the Wolf at all. As a backup weapon, and a secondary if I'm using manufactured weapons rather than cotb.
Edymnion
10-03-07, 08:47 PM But, we're not taking all of this in a void.
We've already established that Beasthide is a good front line ability, which generally means that the character is going to be shifting when he fights. Otherwise, Beasthide isn't worth much in the first place.

Each Shifter feat enhances shifting as a whole.

PsiWars get loads of feats, so that isn't an issue. They do, however, get very few powers known. They're feat heavy, power light. So since you have more feats than powers, you're better off getting your extra natural weapons from a feat than you are from a power.
Moosh Nailo
10-04-07, 06:39 PM I feel like I'm very closeminded this week. And that is not a good thing. I haven't been able to spot a single thing that I myself have not placed in front of my face.

Now I'm almost definitely going to take either a natural weapon as a secondary shifting ability. As of now, I favour longtooth over razorclaw, as my hands will most likely be occupied.

On a secondary note, which shifter feats should I be looking at?

I figure something like this:
1-Beasthide Elite
3-Shifter Stamina? Or Healing Factor?
6-Extra Shifter Trait
9-Shifter Defense
12-Shifter Multiattack
15-Greater Shifter Defense

Anything I'm missing? Or taking and shouldn't be?
Arryn
10-04-07, 07:51 PM 1-Beasthide Elite
3-Shifter Stamina? Or Healing Factor?
6-Extra Shifter Trait
9-Shifter Defense
12-Shifter Multiattack
15-Greater Shifter Defense

That progression seems good, although at third level there might be some issues. Shifter Stamina is more useful for a character with levels in Barbarian. (Since your Shift will almost always outlast your Rage this can be quite useful.) I've heard people say that Healing Factor becomes useless in later levels but I have never taken the Feat so I don't know if that's true. Have you thought of Shifter Instincts from Races of Eberron? It gives plusses to Spot, Listen, Sense Motive and Initiative. Pretty sexy if you ask me.
Moosh Nailo
10-05-07, 10:09 PM Yeah, shifter stamina also has the requisite of Endurance. Shifter instincts only tags on a +1 bonus to those skills, and +2 init. While useful, I think Healing Factor outperforms it, at least in my head. Also just makes me feel like more of a tank overall :D I haven't used either before.

Arguments either way?

And how does Healing Factor become useless later on? It grows in power the higher level you are! Sure as heck beats Toughness.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moosh Nailo 10-01-07, 06:31 PM	Thinking about playing a shifter psychic warrior, and wondering which shifter ability I should have as the front line warrior in a group. I figure Beasthide would be the best, for several reasons. First, none of the abilities that grant you natural weapons stand up to the psywar powers (you can get basically any natural weapon through them). Second, as I'd most likely be a frontliner, constitution and AC seemed a better choice than Dex and an improved form of movement. Does this make sense? Does anyone agree, disagree, have other ideas? Thanks
Salla 10-01-07, 10:15 PM	Works for me. :)
Arryn 10-01-07, 10:33 PM	As the player of a frontline fighter Shifter, I have to say that Beasthide is VERY useful. If you have the extra feat I highly recommend Beasthide Elite for that delicious +4 to AC.
Moosh Nailo 10-01-07, 10:41 PM	Haha thanks for your support, Salla. And Beasthide Elite goes without saying :D
TheKeyofE 10-02-07, 12:24 AM	Yes, Moosh, go Beasthide. I had the idea for a shifter psywar a couple months ago (although I never played him -- check the "Characters You Really Want to Play" thread), and beasthide is easily the most useful. EDIT: another bonus (albeit a small one, but still) is it makes your magic item acquisition easier. Normally, a frontliner will fill his neck slot with an amulet of natural armor or a periapt of health. A psywar has to fill that slot with a periapt of wisdom so he can get more PP, meaning his AC will suffer slightly. A Beasthide shifter gets natural armor from shifting, so he doesn't have to worry about that conflict. The CON bonus also helps alleviate problems with a psywar's MAD issues (they can't dump WIS like most warrior types).
Salla 10-02-07, 12:35 AM	As a side note, did anybody else read the thread title, see 'Shifter' and 'Frontline' and expect some reference to the Flea and Tick medicine?
Edymnion 10-02-07, 12:34 PM	On a differant note, you should check the psiwar powers. They get several vampiric powers that can only be applied to natural weapons, and hence you may want to at least pick up a secondary trait for claws or a bite.
TheKeyofE 10-02-07, 02:10 PM	Claws of the Beast and Bite of the Wolf specifically say they count as natural weapons. Claws of the Vampire and similar powers specifically say they can be applied to any natural weapon, including Claws of the Beast. (sorry, I'm a psi-lawyer, it can't be helped)
Moosh Nailo 10-02-07, 04:46 PM	Never even thought of that Key, thanks. And I was looking at that, Edy, and Key is right, the powers count. Thanks though. On another note, is it worth taking all the natural attack powers? Claws, Bite, and the Tail attack (which book is this one in again?). Claws would seem the most sensible one, with a duration of several hours, and the possible benefit of Claws of the Vampire.
Edymnion 10-02-07, 05:41 PM	Yes, but there are limits to how many powers you know, and how many actions you get in combat. Why spend a round and a power known for manifesting a natural weapon, when you can shift to get it?
Belabras 10-02-07, 06:59 PM	Yes, but there are limits to how many powers you know, and how many actions you get in combat. Why spend a round and a power known for manifesting a natural weapon, when you can shift to get it? Listen to Edymnion. In order for a regular Psywar to buff his natural weapons, he has to first manifest them. So you are looking at 1 round for Claws of the Beast, 1 round for Bite of the Wolf, and an additional round just for Vampiric Claw. Pick up the right shifter traits and it looks more like: Shift to get claw and bite attacks as a swift action AND manifest Vampiric Claw to buff your new weapons, all in 1 round. A lot of fights are almost over after 3 rounds. Not after 1.
TheKeyofE 10-03-07, 02:26 AM	Listen to Edymnion. In order for a regular Psywar to buff his natural weapons, he has to first manifest them. So you are looking at 1 round for Claws of the Beast, 1 round for Bite of the Wolf, and an additional round just for Vampiric Claw. Pick up the right shifter traits and it looks more like: Shift to get claw and bite attacks as a swift action AND manifest Vampiric Claw to buff your new weapons, all in 1 round. A lot of fights are almost over after 3 rounds. Not after 1. This argument is valid for Bite of the Wolf, but not Claws of the Beast. Claws is a swift action to manifest, and lasts hours/level (not to mention you can turn it on and off at will anytime during the duration). Also note that Claws specifically says you can't attack with another weapon (either manufactured or natural) and still get claw attacks. That means Claws of the Beast and Bite of the Wolf don't mix. So I guess there would be an argument for taking the Razorclaw trait plus Bite of the Wolf to get two claws and a bite, but in that case I would rather just use a greatsword and a bite.
Nightshade 10-03-07, 06:52 PM	I agree with the OP's assessment. Beasthide IS the best Shifter Trait for a frontline fighter or psiwar. But Edy is right that you might want to pick up Longtooth or razorclaws with the additional shifter trait feat to make your pc better.
Moosh Nailo 10-03-07, 06:57 PM	See Key's response. The swift activation and hours/level duration of Claws of the Beast is the kicker. IMO it is a better combination to take Claws of the Beast and Beasthide (elite) than Razorclaw and Longtooth. First, it isn't as much of a feat-sucker (not that that is as much of an issue with psywar). Second, cotb lasts significantly longer than a shift. And although beasthide lasts just as long as razorclaw, I'd argue that it is more useful to be able to freely add AC rather than a natural attack that I have easy access to a better version of. If that makes any sense at all @Nightshade: I can see myself possibly grabbing Longtooth later, while not taking Bite of the Wolf at all. As a backup weapon, and a secondary if I'm using manufactured weapons rather than cotb.
Edymnion 10-03-07, 08:47 PM	But, we're not taking all of this in a void. We've already established that Beasthide is a good front line ability, which generally means that the character is going to be shifting when he fights. Otherwise, Beasthide isn't worth much in the first place. Each Shifter feat enhances shifting as a whole. PsiWars get loads of feats, so that isn't an issue. They do, however, get very few powers known. They're feat heavy, power light. So since you have more feats than powers, you're better off getting your extra natural weapons from a feat than you are from a power.
Moosh Nailo 10-04-07, 06:39 PM	I feel like I'm very closeminded this week. And that is not a good thing. I haven't been able to spot a single thing that I myself have not placed in front of my face. Now I'm almost definitely going to take either a natural weapon as a secondary shifting ability. As of now, I favour longtooth over razorclaw, as my hands will most likely be occupied. On a secondary note, which shifter feats should I be looking at? I figure something like this: 1-Beasthide Elite 3-Shifter Stamina? Or Healing Factor? 6-Extra Shifter Trait 9-Shifter Defense 12-Shifter Multiattack 15-Greater Shifter Defense Anything I'm missing? Or taking and shouldn't be?
Arryn 10-04-07, 07:51 PM	1-Beasthide Elite 3-Shifter Stamina? Or Healing Factor? 6-Extra Shifter Trait 9-Shifter Defense 12-Shifter Multiattack 15-Greater Shifter Defense That progression seems good, although at third level there might be some issues. Shifter Stamina is more useful for a character with levels in Barbarian. (Since your Shift will almost always outlast your Rage this can be quite useful.) I've heard people say that Healing Factor becomes useless in later levels but I have never taken the Feat so I don't know if that's true. Have you thought of Shifter Instincts from Races of Eberron? It gives plusses to Spot, Listen, Sense Motive and Initiative. Pretty sexy if you ask me.
Moosh Nailo 10-05-07, 10:09 PM	Yeah, shifter stamina also has the requisite of Endurance. Shifter instincts only tags on a +1 bonus to those skills, and +2 init. While useful, I think Healing Factor outperforms it, at least in my head. Also just makes me feel like more of a tank overall :D I haven't used either before. Arguments either way? And how does Healing Factor become useless later on? It grows in power the higher level you are! Sure as heck beats Toughness.