Shifter houserule? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shifter houserule? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ukkic
05-28-07, 05:09 PM Do you think it would be over-powered to give shifters a bonus shifter feat at first level? They seem like their feat dependancy handycaps them when it comes to doing many things.
If it is over-powered, are there any houserules that you use for shifters that work well?

~Ukkic
Cifer
05-28-07, 05:30 PM They seem like their feat dependancy handycaps them when it comes to doing many things.
Then just don't do many things. Warforged lack charisma and wisdom and can't get healed effectively - so if you want to play an optimized cleric, you don't use them. Shifters demand a lot of feats, so you better don't use them for builds that are feat-intensive on their own.
tallric_kruush
05-28-07, 08:52 PM Ukkic, we do exactly what you've suggested, for the very reason you've suggested.

The shifter druid I'm playing right now, for instance, started at level one as a "Beasthide Longstride" shifter. When he shifts, he gets +2 Dex,+2 Con, and all the other associated benefits of the two traits.

If I ever choose the Extra Shifter Trait feat down the road, he of course would not benefit from the Ability Score bonus of that extra trait. For the purpose of the houserule, though, both of his starting traits are his "Primary Trait".

I'm intending to advance in the Moonspeaker PrC, eventually. There's a class ability that allows you to enjoy the Ability Score Enhancement of your primary shifter trait at all times--even when not you're shifting. In the case of something like this, I would think it would be wise to grant the continuous boost to only one of the primary traits' enhancements.
crashbangboom
05-28-07, 10:49 PM just so you know, you only get the ability score bonus from your first shifter feat selection. +2 con or +2 dex,etc etc....... not both.
tallric_kruush
05-28-07, 10:52 PM just so you know, you only get the ability score bonus from your first shifter feat selection. +2 con or +2 dex,etc etc....... not both.

You didn't catch the meaning of my post. We are discussing a houserule that grants a shifter two primary traits. With this houserule, I get the ability increase of both my primary traits, though not with any extra traits gained through feat selection or class abilities.
gelalshawr
05-29-07, 01:18 PM You didn't catch the meaning of my post. We are discussing a houserule that grants a shifter two primary traits. With this houserule, I get the ability increase of both my primary traits, though not with any extra traits gained through feat selection or class abilities.

well... you are at least, the OP was merely talking about giving shifters a bonus shifter feat at first level, not quite the same as your suggestion. your houserule for example, doesn't increase the number of rounds I shift, or the number of times I can shift per day
bad_phil
05-29-07, 01:38 PM Are you talking about shifter FEATS or shifter TRAITS. These are not the same things. If your shfiter got two traits....it might be overpowered than one bonus shifter feat at first level. A bonus shifter feat is not much, but I think the shifter is alrady balanced. On my opinion, if you do so, anything else should get one. It's still my opinion anyway.
Ukkic
05-29-07, 03:04 PM I was talking about a shifter feat.

And I know that shifters can be powerful, but to do so they have to spend all their feats on shifter feats and this severely limits the possible builds, and thus much of the possible flavor.

We probably won't use a house rule, being as I am not running the game I don't want to push it on the DM, instead I just asked him to allow flaws.

~Ukkic
tallric_kruush
05-29-07, 04:58 PM I realized what the OP was asking after posting. My post was still semi-relevant, I guess. :P Oh well, it was late...
Ukkic
05-29-07, 06:42 PM Ya, that's ok, I'm interested in hearing any shifter house rules that people are using.

~Ukkic
Neutronium_Dragon
05-29-07, 11:10 PM > Shifters demand a lot of feats, so you better don't use them for builds that
> are feat-intensive on their own.

That includes pretty much every build which hopes to be effective in its chosen role. Feats are simply too critical a building block to forego them entirely.

The idea of using feats to improve racial abilities is a sound one, but in the case of shifters the built-in scaling on the basis of how many they have causes a disproportionate effect. That's really where the problem lies.

Borrowing an idea from the Tome of Battle, if you want to loosen up this problem, perhaps allow every two non-shifter feats they take to count as one shifter feat for the purpose of scaling (shifts/day and duration). This would take some of the pressure off.
Vharuck
05-30-07, 04:40 PM That includes pretty much every build which hopes to be effective in its chosen role. Feats are simply too critical a building block to forego them entirely.

The idea of using feats to improve racial abilities is a sound one, but in the case of shifters the built-in scaling on the basis of how many they have causes a disproportionate effect. That's really where the problem lies.

Borrowing an idea from the Tome of Battle, if you want to loosen up this problem, perhaps allow every two non-shifter feats they take to count as one shifter feat for the purpose of scaling (shifts/day and duration). This would take some of the pressure off.

I truly don't mean to sound rude, but not everyone attempts to achieve maximum efficiency or output in a single situation. Doing so is fine, and if you have fun doing it I won't stop you.

My gnome wizard has Collegiate Wizard (collects knowledge and studied at the Twelve, and yes this is a very powerful feat), Least Dragonmark of Scribing (which allows me to use arcane mark, and I plan to advance the dragonmark), and at level 5 I'm likely taking Craft Wondrous Item because I want to make the coolest crap possible. I have no idea where he's going (hazily shooting for the scroll-casting Sivis PrC from Dragonmarked), but I just want to have fun on the way.

But, if you truly want to be a powerful shifter who can feel free to spend feats on shifter feats, then be a druid. All you need is to save one feat for Natural Spell and you'll probably be the most uber member of the party.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-30-07, 11:12 PM Right, except that it doesn't have to be about raw power. Imagine if that gnome's racial abilities were suddenly dependent on spending feats at every level they're available to maintain their effectiveness.

Suddenly Collegiate Wizard and Least Dragonmark become a problem because if you choose those, you might as well have "Race: None" on your character sheet for all of the use it is to you. Or you can forego anything which actually fits your character archetype for the sake of allowing your race to actually continue to mean something. Meanwhile, no one else has this problem...
Vharuck
05-31-07, 12:38 AM Right, except that it doesn't have to be about raw power. Imagine if that gnome's racial abilities were suddenly dependent on spending feats at every level they're available to maintain their effectiveness.

Suddenly Collegiate Wizard and Least Dragonmark become a problem because if you choose those, you might as well have "Race: None" on your character sheet for all of the use it is to you. Or you can forego anything which actually fits your character archetype for the sake of allowing your race to actually continue to mean something. Meanwhile, no one else has this problem...

+2 to an ability is nice no matter what, and only razorclaw becomes pointless later on.
tallric_kruush
05-31-07, 04:29 PM I have to agree with Neutronium Dragon. The problem I have with the Shifter RAW is that the race itself seems entirely feat dependent, if you want to make a shifter that remotely resembles those described in the racial fluff.

Sure, you can play any class with a shifter, if your not looking for an optimized build. Yet, if you want your shifter's race and heritage to play even the smallest part in the mechanics of your character, you are pretty much forced to invest the majority of your feats in Shifter Racial Feats. This is a very limiting handicap to place upon a race.
Kaleanae en'i Mori
06-06-07, 01:29 AM I love shifters!! If you build it right you can have some serious fun with them and yes they need lot s feats. I ran a Gorebrute Fighter/Barbarian and he was not one to annoy. Orignal build had the Warshaper PRc which makes them quite powerful with the Str/Con mods, but we agreed that it was overpowered and I dropped the class. But he was still quite dangerous and feral as!!

They are my favourite Eberron race to play!
TiwazTyrsfist
06-18-07, 06:32 PM Every time I look at the shifters, I want a PrC that grant's bonus shifter feats.

Something to the effect of a ten level class that grants a shifter feat every even level, and advances the damage of your natural weapons (if any) in a way similar to (but not as strongly as) the advancement of Monks' unarmed damage.
I know there are a couple shifter PrCs that grant shifter feats, but I'm looking for one that grants a lot of them.
Alex_
06-18-07, 11:53 PM What about allowing Shifters an extra Shift per day according to level? Like 1 additional time per day per ever 5-6 levels for a total of 4 or so per day by level 20? Then rule that Shifter Feats no longer grant bonus Shifts, or create a new Feat: Extra Shifting (+1 Shift per day, can be taken multiple times, effects stack)?

Would that be better?
ChaoticGood
06-20-07, 06:35 PM How about this for a houserule: A shifter can spend an action point to shift as normal if the character has no shifting uses left. Doing so is extremely strenuous and causes the shifter to become fatigued at the end of the shifting, just as a barbarian leaving rage.
Neutronium_Dragon
06-20-07, 08:19 PM I don't think there'd be a need to make them fatigued. They aren't normally. But it fits with action points generally; you can activate a class feature with one, so why not extend that to activating a race feature?

Allowing an AP to shift an extra time would help somewhat, but only in games which actually have AP (shifters can be used in non-Eberron games too). Another problem is that at the time when they're apt to need to do this most (low level, when they probably have the fewest uses/day) they also have the fewest APs available.
gensuke626
06-20-07, 08:30 PM I like Chaotic Good's idea, if only because it gives you that nice dramatic "Last Ditch Effort" shift for story climaxes and whatnot.

I'll agree that shifters are a horribly feat dependant race, if you want to get the most out of your Race, but I don't think they need to be all that dependant on shifting. Certain builds like Razorclaw, Gorebrute and Longfang depend on feats to get the most out of the heritage, but I feel that others like Swiftwing, Longstrider, Truedive, and Dreamsight can be very effective, even without the bonus of having alot of shifter feats.

Of course this is also coming from the madman who wants to play a Warforged Bard, just so I can have it sing songs like "Wind's Nocture" and "Imagine".
The_wizard_Tim
06-20-07, 11:14 PM I wish!!!!!!!!

My last character was a 5th lvl shifter druid/ 2nd lvl warshaper 2nd lvl weretouched master I was doing 2d6+15 with each claw now with the proposed extra feat It would have been even nastier with rend also... oh well and about extra shifting my dm did allow druid vestments to increase my wild shifting (see shifter druid alt lvls) instead of wild shape. so that was nice.
Antioch
06-21-07, 04:39 AM The only houserule I've considered for a shifter is to award extra shifting uses per day at every 5th level, in addition to those gained from feats.
Belkar
06-21-07, 12:39 PM I'm DMing a long-running Eberron campaign right now, party avg lvl 19 ('bout to end it... I think...;) ), and our meatwall is a shifter Barbarian who maxed out Weretouched Master (Bear) as soon as he could, then took 4 levels in Warshaper.

He Rage/Shifts, pops a potion of enlarge (or uses a shifter braid) and just wades into melee. The only non shifter feats he's picked up are Improved Natural Attack and Rend. He doesn't even spend much money on healing magic (counts on Healing Factor feat, and rapid healing from warshaper) and waves off the cleric. All his money is spent on shifter braids and potions of enlarge person.

With the help of a simple first level spell, and an awesome character build, he has a 15' reach, claws three size categories larger than regular ones, damage-wise (Improv Nat Attack/Weretouched Master/Enlarge Person) and a Str and Con that jump through the roof when he shifts and rages.

He's a meatwall, melee god. It's insane.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ukkic 05-28-07, 05:09 PM	Do you think it would be over-powered to give shifters a bonus shifter feat at first level? They seem like their feat dependancy handycaps them when it comes to doing many things. If it is over-powered, are there any houserules that you use for shifters that work well? ~Ukkic
Cifer 05-28-07, 05:30 PM	They seem like their feat dependancy handycaps them when it comes to doing many things. Then just don't do many things. Warforged lack charisma and wisdom and can't get healed effectively - so if you want to play an optimized cleric, you don't use them. Shifters demand a lot of feats, so you better don't use them for builds that are feat-intensive on their own.
tallric_kruush 05-28-07, 08:52 PM	Ukkic, we do exactly what you've suggested, for the very reason you've suggested. The shifter druid I'm playing right now, for instance, started at level one as a "Beasthide Longstride" shifter. When he shifts, he gets +2 Dex,+2 Con, and all the other associated benefits of the two traits. If I ever choose the Extra Shifter Trait feat down the road, he of course would not benefit from the Ability Score bonus of that extra trait. For the purpose of the houserule, though, both of his starting traits are his "Primary Trait". I'm intending to advance in the Moonspeaker PrC, eventually. There's a class ability that allows you to enjoy the Ability Score Enhancement of your primary shifter trait at all times--even when not you're shifting. In the case of something like this, I would think it would be wise to grant the continuous boost to only one of the primary traits' enhancements.
crashbangboom 05-28-07, 10:49 PM	just so you know, you only get the ability score bonus from your first shifter feat selection. +2 con or +2 dex,etc etc....... not both.
tallric_kruush 05-28-07, 10:52 PM	just so you know, you only get the ability score bonus from your first shifter feat selection. +2 con or +2 dex,etc etc....... not both. You didn't catch the meaning of my post. We are discussing a houserule that grants a shifter two primary traits. With this houserule, I get the ability increase of both my primary traits, though not with any extra traits gained through feat selection or class abilities.
gelalshawr 05-29-07, 01:18 PM	You didn't catch the meaning of my post. We are discussing a houserule that grants a shifter two primary traits. With this houserule, I get the ability increase of both my primary traits, though not with any extra traits gained through feat selection or class abilities. well... you are at least, the OP was merely talking about giving shifters a bonus shifter feat at first level, not quite the same as your suggestion. your houserule for example, doesn't increase the number of rounds I shift, or the number of times I can shift per day
bad_phil 05-29-07, 01:38 PM	Are you talking about shifter FEATS or shifter TRAITS. These are not the same things. If your shfiter got two traits....it might be overpowered than one bonus shifter feat at first level. A bonus shifter feat is not much, but I think the shifter is alrady balanced. On my opinion, if you do so, anything else should get one. It's still my opinion anyway.
Ukkic 05-29-07, 03:04 PM	I was talking about a shifter feat. And I know that shifters can be powerful, but to do so they have to spend all their feats on shifter feats and this severely limits the possible builds, and thus much of the possible flavor. We probably won't use a house rule, being as I am not running the game I don't want to push it on the DM, instead I just asked him to allow flaws. ~Ukkic
tallric_kruush 05-29-07, 04:58 PM	I realized what the OP was asking after posting. My post was still semi-relevant, I guess. :P Oh well, it was late...
Ukkic 05-29-07, 06:42 PM	Ya, that's ok, I'm interested in hearing any shifter house rules that people are using. ~Ukkic
Neutronium_Dragon 05-29-07, 11:10 PM	> Shifters demand a lot of feats, so you better don't use them for builds that > are feat-intensive on their own. That includes pretty much every build which hopes to be effective in its chosen role. Feats are simply too critical a building block to forego them entirely. The idea of using feats to improve racial abilities is a sound one, but in the case of shifters the built-in scaling on the basis of how many they have causes a disproportionate effect. That's really where the problem lies. Borrowing an idea from the Tome of Battle, if you want to loosen up this problem, perhaps allow every two non-shifter feats they take to count as one shifter feat for the purpose of scaling (shifts/day and duration). This would take some of the pressure off.
Vharuck 05-30-07, 04:40 PM	That includes pretty much every build which hopes to be effective in its chosen role. Feats are simply too critical a building block to forego them entirely. The idea of using feats to improve racial abilities is a sound one, but in the case of shifters the built-in scaling on the basis of how many they have causes a disproportionate effect. That's really where the problem lies. Borrowing an idea from the Tome of Battle, if you want to loosen up this problem, perhaps allow every two non-shifter feats they take to count as one shifter feat for the purpose of scaling (shifts/day and duration). This would take some of the pressure off. I truly don't mean to sound rude, but not everyone attempts to achieve maximum efficiency or output in a single situation. Doing so is fine, and if you have fun doing it I won't stop you. My gnome wizard has Collegiate Wizard (collects knowledge and studied at the Twelve, and yes this is a very powerful feat), Least Dragonmark of Scribing (which allows me to use arcane mark, and I plan to advance the dragonmark), and at level 5 I'm likely taking Craft Wondrous Item because I want to make the coolest crap possible. I have no idea where he's going (hazily shooting for the scroll-casting Sivis PrC from Dragonmarked), but I just want to have fun on the way. But, if you truly want to be a powerful shifter who can feel free to spend feats on shifter feats, then be a druid. All you need is to save one feat for Natural Spell and you'll probably be the most uber member of the party.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-30-07, 11:12 PM	Right, except that it doesn't have to be about raw power. Imagine if that gnome's racial abilities were suddenly dependent on spending feats at every level they're available to maintain their effectiveness. Suddenly Collegiate Wizard and Least Dragonmark become a problem because if you choose those, you might as well have "Race: None" on your character sheet for all of the use it is to you. Or you can forego anything which actually fits your character archetype for the sake of allowing your race to actually continue to mean something. Meanwhile, no one else has this problem...
Vharuck 05-31-07, 12:38 AM	Right, except that it doesn't have to be about raw power. Imagine if that gnome's racial abilities were suddenly dependent on spending feats at every level they're available to maintain their effectiveness. Suddenly Collegiate Wizard and Least Dragonmark become a problem because if you choose those, you might as well have "Race: None" on your character sheet for all of the use it is to you. Or you can forego anything which actually fits your character archetype for the sake of allowing your race to actually continue to mean something. Meanwhile, no one else has this problem... +2 to an ability is nice no matter what, and only razorclaw becomes pointless later on.
tallric_kruush 05-31-07, 04:29 PM	I have to agree with Neutronium Dragon. The problem I have with the Shifter RAW is that the race itself seems entirely feat dependent, if you want to make a shifter that remotely resembles those described in the racial fluff. Sure, you can play any class with a shifter, if your not looking for an optimized build. Yet, if you want your shifter's race and heritage to play even the smallest part in the mechanics of your character, you are pretty much forced to invest the majority of your feats in Shifter Racial Feats. This is a very limiting handicap to place upon a race.
Kaleanae en'i Mori 06-06-07, 01:29 AM	I love shifters!! If you build it right you can have some serious fun with them and yes they need lot s feats. I ran a Gorebrute Fighter/Barbarian and he was not one to annoy. Orignal build had the Warshaper PRc which makes them quite powerful with the Str/Con mods, but we agreed that it was overpowered and I dropped the class. But he was still quite dangerous and feral as!! They are my favourite Eberron race to play!
TiwazTyrsfist 06-18-07, 06:32 PM	Every time I look at the shifters, I want a PrC that grant's bonus shifter feats. Something to the effect of a ten level class that grants a shifter feat every even level, and advances the damage of your natural weapons (if any) in a way similar to (but not as strongly as) the advancement of Monks' unarmed damage. I know there are a couple shifter PrCs that grant shifter feats, but I'm looking for one that grants a lot of them.
Alex_ 06-18-07, 11:53 PM	What about allowing Shifters an extra Shift per day according to level? Like 1 additional time per day per ever 5-6 levels for a total of 4 or so per day by level 20? Then rule that Shifter Feats no longer grant bonus Shifts, or create a new Feat: Extra Shifting (+1 Shift per day, can be taken multiple times, effects stack)? Would that be better?
ChaoticGood 06-20-07, 06:35 PM	How about this for a houserule: A shifter can spend an action point to shift as normal if the character has no shifting uses left. Doing so is extremely strenuous and causes the shifter to become fatigued at the end of the shifting, just as a barbarian leaving rage.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-20-07, 08:19 PM	I don't think there'd be a need to make them fatigued. They aren't normally. But it fits with action points generally; you can activate a class feature with one, so why not extend that to activating a race feature? Allowing an AP to shift an extra time would help somewhat, but only in games which actually have AP (shifters can be used in non-Eberron games too). Another problem is that at the time when they're apt to need to do this most (low level, when they probably have the fewest uses/day) they also have the fewest APs available.
gensuke626 06-20-07, 08:30 PM	I like Chaotic Good's idea, if only because it gives you that nice dramatic "Last Ditch Effort" shift for story climaxes and whatnot. I'll agree that shifters are a horribly feat dependant race, if you want to get the most out of your Race, but I don't think they need to be all that dependant on shifting. Certain builds like Razorclaw, Gorebrute and Longfang depend on feats to get the most out of the heritage, but I feel that others like Swiftwing, Longstrider, Truedive, and Dreamsight can be very effective, even without the bonus of having alot of shifter feats. Of course this is also coming from the madman who wants to play a Warforged Bard, just so I can have it sing songs like "Wind's Nocture" and "Imagine".
The_wizard_Tim 06-20-07, 11:14 PM	I wish!!!!!!!! My last character was a 5th lvl shifter druid/ 2nd lvl warshaper 2nd lvl weretouched master I was doing 2d6+15 with each claw now with the proposed extra feat It would have been even nastier with rend also... oh well and about extra shifting my dm did allow druid vestments to increase my wild shifting (see shifter druid alt lvls) instead of wild shape. so that was nice.
Antioch 06-21-07, 04:39 AM	The only houserule I've considered for a shifter is to award extra shifting uses per day at every 5th level, in addition to those gained from feats.
Belkar 06-21-07, 12:39 PM	I'm DMing a long-running Eberron campaign right now, party avg lvl 19 ('bout to end it... I think...;) ), and our meatwall is a shifter Barbarian who maxed out Weretouched Master (Bear) as soon as he could, then took 4 levels in Warshaper. He Rage/Shifts, pops a potion of enlarge (or uses a shifter braid) and just wades into melee. The only non shifter feats he's picked up are Improved Natural Attack and Rend. He doesn't even spend much money on healing magic (counts on Healing Factor feat, and rapid healing from warshaper) and waves off the cleric. All his money is spent on shifter braids and potions of enlarge person. With the help of a simple first level spell, and an awesome character build, he has a 15' reach, claws three size categories larger than regular ones, damage-wise (Improv Nat Attack/Weretouched Master/Enlarge Person) and a Str and Con that jump through the roof when he shifts and rages. He's a meatwall, melee god. It's insane.