Post/Author/DateTime	Post
snakebliskan 03-20-07, 10:17 AM	how does shifting affect the dmg that the monk can deal out ie do you treat razor claw and razor claw elite imp nat attack as step ups on the monks base unarmed dmg? If so a 8 thlvl monk with a monks belt would deal 6D6 + str bonus each hand... is this right?
UnderworldLord 03-20-07, 10:26 AM	The thing is, monks use unarmed attacks, while razorclaw is a natural attack. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I believe they are completely unrelated.
snakebliskan 03-20-07, 10:35 AM	but its also a natrual attack and I quote* PHB pg 41 A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance and or improve either manufactured or natural weapons!) end quote.
UnderworldLord 03-20-07, 10:59 AM	But its still a natural attack, meaning you can't flurry with it, you only get one hit at highest bab, and so forth. The Monk's unarmed strike is an unarmed strike, it doesn't stack with natural weapons as such, and it only counts as a manufactured/natural weapon for purposes of spells that affect it. Also, feats are not effects.
snakebliskan 03-20-07, 11:08 AM	so you cant use magic fang with a monks unarmed attack?... it effects only natural attacks
UnderworldLord 03-20-07, 11:11 AM	You can. Thats why the monk strike is treated as a natural attack. Not so you can use a natural attack for a monk strike. Edit: There, I see why the confusion happened. Edited my above post to reflect it better.
snakebliskan 03-20-07, 11:26 AM	You can. Thats why the monk strike is treated as a natural attack. Not so you can use a natural attack for a monk strike. Edit: There, I see why the confusion happened. Edited my above post to reflect it better. ok so if you have a feat that improves a natural attack then it should work on the monks unarmed attack because its treated as a natural attack.
UnderworldLord 03-20-07, 11:27 AM	no, because feats aren't effects.
snakebliskan 03-20-07, 11:28 AM	now also the razor claw feats improve a pcs natural attack by giving him claws that increase its dmg.
UnderworldLord 03-20-07, 11:33 AM	And your natural attack still cannot be used as your unarmed strike. Because the two are inherently different. You're unarmed strike is treated as though it were a natural attack so you can let spells like magic fang work on it. And for the third time, feats are not effects.
snakebliskan 03-20-07, 11:37 AM	And your natural attack still cannot be used as your unarmed strike. Because the two are inherently different. You're unarmed strike is treated as though it were a natural attack so you can let spells like magic fang work on it. And for the third time, feats are not effects. if the ability of a feat isnt an effect then what is it?
UnderworldLord 03-20-07, 11:40 AM	A metagame concept. Spells have effects. SLAs have effects. Feats grant abilities and bonuses.
snakebliskan 03-20-07, 11:44 AM	A metagame concept. Spells have effects. SLAs have effects. Feats grant abilities and bonuses. then explaine this plz IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8. Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different natural attack. and according to these wotc forums monks can use this feat... now are they wrong also?... Im not trying to argue im trying to understand... srry if it seems like the later.
snakebliskan 03-20-07, 12:13 PM	now taking this feat imp natural weapon, it says treat the natural weapon as one size catagory larger. does that mean the monk use the lrg monk dmg chart?
Hellcow 03-20-07, 01:14 PM	how does shifting affect the dmg that the monk can deal out... Setting aside the GENERIC Improved Natural Attack feat available to characters of any race (who meet the prereqs), I know for a fact (having raised this issue with WotC in the past) that the natural weapons of a razorclaw or longtooth shifter do not in any way stack with the unarmed attacks of a monk. You use one or the other. Under the current rules, a shifter monk cannot make a flurry of blows with claws or teeth. You could create new feats or class substitution features that alter this: but as it stands, shifting alone is not supposed to change the class-based unarmed damage of a shifter monk.
snakebliskan 03-20-07, 01:16 PM	ok ty hellcow... well that blows...lol hmmm
UnderworldLord 03-20-07, 04:16 PM	then explaine this plz IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8. Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Each time it applies to a different natural attack. and according to these wotc forums monks can use this feat... now are they wrong also?... Im not trying to argue im trying to understand... srry if it seems like the later. Where are the forums do you find monks using that? There is no way in Kyber that can be plausible! I understand you're not trying to argue, I really don't mean to sound that way either, and apologize if I am.
Werebat 03-20-07, 04:45 PM	ok ty hellcow... well that blows...lol hmmm Well, it can affect your damage OUTPUT... IIRC you can flurry with your monk attacks and then bite once with a -5 penalty to hit (well, -7 total if you flurried). Claws I'm not so sure about... IIRC you can only use natural weapons in conjunction with unarmed strikes if you could also use them while wielding weapons -- would that mean you could use ONE claw? - Ron ^*^
Werebat 03-20-07, 04:47 PM	now taking this feat imp natural weapon, it says treat the natural weapon as one size catagory larger. does that mean the monk use the lrg monk dmg chart? Yes this makes it fun for a Changeling Monk/Warshaper who takes Natural Attack and then uses the level 1 Warshaper ability to boost her unarmed attack die yet again. - Ron ^*^
Kid SixXx 03-21-07, 08:45 AM	Setting aside the GENERIC Improved Natural Attack feat available to characters of any race (who meet the prereqs), I know for a fact (having raised this issue with WotC in the past) that the natural weapons of a razorclaw or longtooth shifter do not in any way stack with the unarmed attacks of a monk. You use one or the other. Under the current rules, a shifter monk cannot make a flurry of blows with claws or teeth. You could create new feats or class substitution features that alter this: but as it stands, shifting alone is not supposed to change the class-based unarmed damage of a shifter monk. Yep. There were issues that cropped up in RoE with the caption about the Shifter Monk taking the Shifter Savagery feat. There wasn't much reason for a razorclaw monk to take the feat since he couldn't flurry with his claws & the feat would arguably only apply to the damage of any iterative claw attacks that he made over and above the flurry. Which most likely would miss because of heavy penalties. PS: Pretty much what Werebat said.
Romulus LoneWolf 03-21-07, 10:53 PM	I think Shifter Monk Substitution Levels are the way to go. Maybe trade in the level 1 Bonus Fear for the ability to use Razorclaw with a Flurry of Blows for starters..
korcheck 03-22-07, 11:35 AM	Regardless (btw contrary to popular belief irregardless is not a word) of game semantics and/or equality or any other excuse used by WotC i think that it is B.S. not to be able to use both claws with flurry of blow. If both fists can do something then physically and realistically there is no difference when using claws, its just like b--ch slapping someone except it hurts more than your pride. The same goes for either of the other 2 forms of nat. wps. shifters use. It takes more training to swing a stick around madly in the hopes of hitting something than it would to learn how to use what the gods blessed you with naturally. one of the other DM's and I disagree with this notion but if I am running the game then it goes my way. THAT is the point of and reason for house rules, becuase not everything the books say will work. Remember one thing the PHB came out before the the shifters did so it did not take them into account.
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 11:44 AM	The same goes for either of the other 2 forms of nat. wps. shifters use. It takes more training to swing a stick around madly in the hopes of hitting something than it would to learn how to use what the gods blessed you with naturally. I dunno about that. I've studied Muay Thai and Krav Maga. Not too many martial arts that I am aware of factor in a bite attack so the Longtooth Monk could get a bit sketchy. ;) Claws, I suppose, are a different matter because of the "Wolverine from X-Men" factor.
Pinky's brain 03-22-07, 11:57 AM	If both fists can do something then physically and realistically there is no difference when using clawsSame argument could be used for spiked gauntlets. It takes more training to swing a stick around madly in the hopes of hitting something than it would to learn how to use what the gods blessed you with naturally. When used as natural weapons, yes ... when used as sharp pointy things attached to your hands which you try to use as a normal weapon, no.
The Dreaming Duck 03-22-07, 12:09 PM	I dunno about that. I've studied Muay Thai and Krav Maga. Not too many martial arts that I am aware of factor in a bite attack so the Longtooth Monk could get a bit sketchy. ;) Exactly. There's a HUGE difference between striking with a closed fist and scratching with claws or making a bite attack, in terms of the movements required to make an effective blow. The unarmed abilities of a monk reflect training in a specific style of martial arts. If I've been trained in kickboxing, having claws won't increase my damage, and I'm no more prepared to make a flurry with claws than I am with, say, a greatsword. Variant styles are typically represented by feats, such as Whirling Steel Strike, which indicates that the style of martial arts known incorproates the use of the lognsword. So if you want a variant style that incorporates claws and teeth - something that one could logically see shifters developing - representing it with feats or class substitution features, just like any other variant style. But by default, the monk style of martial arts is based on the natural weapons ALL humanoids possess, and does not take into account natural attacks possessed by a specific species.
korcheck 03-22-07, 12:18 PM	Sorry what i am trying to say is that it doesn't take kung fu to use a natural attack so why would you need "special training" that inhibits its use to add it into your repatior<----(is that spelled correctly? i don't think so, oh well.) Think about this, animal style kung fu was developed from observing animals in nature, and where better to do so than in the eldeen reaches. Crane style has a hand attack that mimics the natural beak thrust of a crane, leopard uses a throat attack that is styled after the leopards pouncing attack to the throat to bring prey down. So why then can't a master see an opportunity to adapt kung fu to the students strengths? If he can bite teach the guy to do so as part of the training. Animal form kug fu would be perfect for shifters because they are able to incorperate parts of the animals attacks realistically into the styles they use. Imagine a shifter attacking you in the same way a tiger does, springing into the air (or out of a tree) arms held out claws extended and teeth bared all for feet hit the target and begin to rake the body into tatters as the teeth clamp down on either the throat or the back of the neck. If its the throat you can't breath and soon begin to gag and choak on your own blood, if its the back of the nack you are almost instantly paralized as the neck bones and the nerves are severed from their connections by a two pair of scissors closing slowly enough to feel your body collapse underneath you of its own accord. that is how i would train shifters.
korcheck 03-22-07, 12:26 PM	Exactly. There's a HUGE difference between striking with a closed fist and scratching with claws or making a bite attack, in terms of the movements required to make an effective blow. The unarmed abilities of a monk reflect training in a specific style of martial arts. If I've been trained in kickboxing, having claws won't increase my damage, and I'm no more prepared to make a flurry with claws than I am with, say, a greatsword. Variant styles are typically represented by feats, such as Whirling Steel Strike, which indicates that the style of martial arts known incorproates the use of the lognsword. So if you want a variant style that incorporates claws and teeth - something that one could logically see shifters developing - representing it with feats or class substitution features, just like any other variant style. But by default, the monk style of martial arts is based on the natural weapons ALL humanoids possess, and does not take into account natural attacks possessed by a specific species. That is my point though why would a martial artist master not train his student to use his claws or whatever to say that is assanine you're right a kick boxer wouldn't use claws but if you have the weapons already having a master then go and ignore them would be like telling a boxer to only use one arm. as for the feat idea i disagree completely the last thing shifters need is ANOTHER DANG FEAT they can't use half the ones they have which makes them next to useless if you truly wish to incorperate their heratage the other races from the PHB do'nt have this problem the only new race feats for them give them friggin' magic.
The Dreaming Duck 03-22-07, 12:35 PM	Sorry what i am trying to say is that it doesn't take kung fu to use a natural attack so why would you need "special training" that inhibits its use to add it into your repatior<----(is that spelled correctly? i don't think so, oh well.) It doesn't take kung fu to use a longsword either. It takes kung fu - or at least, Whirling Steel Strike - to use a longsword with a flurry of blows. Crane style has a hand attack that mimics the natural beak thrust of a crane, leopard uses a throat attack that is styled after the leopards pouncing attack to the throat to bring prey down. So why then can't a master see an opportunity to adapt kung fu to the students strengths? He can... which is exactly what feats like Whirling Steel Strike represent. That's just the point: default monk training only uses the natural attacks possessed by all creatures. Anything else represents a specialized style, and in game terms, a specialized style is reflected through use of a feat. Let's say I wanted to create an Eldeen Shifter Monk Order. I'd create a feat IDENTICAL to Whirling Steel Strike - "Way of Tooth and Claw" - and say "This feat allows the monk to treat bite or claw attacks as special monk weapons." I'd then allow the monk to choose this feat at either first or second level in place of the existing bonus feats. So, in your animal style, you're trained to use claw and tooth - but as a result, you DON'T use Stunning Fist, because that's NOT part of your animal style. Feats are what define the martial style of a monk. Do you use weapons? Do you grapple, or strike with a stunning fist? Can you deflect arrows, or strike at multiple foes? It's the choice of these bonus feats that define your style - and to do what you want, you should add a feat to the repetoire. The base monk is designed to be an equally valid choice for all races. If it made special exceptions for races with natural attacks - without requiring the same sort of feat you'd use to use sword or spear - then it's unbalancing and encouraging members of those races to be monks, because they get a bonus no other race does. If he can bite teach the guy to do so as part of the training. Animal form kug fu would be perfect for shifters because they are able to incorperate parts of the animals attacks realistically into the styles they use. Exactly.. as part of the training. Normally, monk training may include Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and so on. No monk style incorporates all of these options; it's all part of your training. So in creating your animal style, which options do you possess? You GAIN the ability to use tooth and claw - but you'll have to sacrifice something else to do it. That's what game balance is about.
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 12:39 PM	That is my point though why would a martial artist master not train his student to use his claws. I dunno. Depending on the philosophical bend of the master, perhaps the teacher doesn't want all of his student's fights to end with a death? Kinda hard to stun a guy with a claw attack. The concept of a Shifter Monk seems weird & almost Rev. Bem (from the TV show, Andromeda) in concept to me. It's almost like training a Shifter in a school of thought in the hopes that he'll reject his natural ferocity.
korcheck 03-22-07, 12:41 PM	ok i see your point i was thinking that you were trying to use another one of the free feats that shifters so desprately need thanks for the clarification.:D
Hellcow 03-22-07, 12:42 PM	I'd create a feat IDENTICAL to Whirling Steel Strike - "Way of Tooth and Claw" - and say "This feat allows the monk to treat bite or claw attacks as special monk weapons." I'd then allow the monk to choose this feat at either first or second level in place of the existing bonus feats. So, in your animal style, you're trained to use claw and tooth - but as a result, you DON'T use Stunning Fist, because that's NOT part of your animal style. I agree. In basic D&D, feats define a monk's martial art. The martial arts of the Broken Blade incorporate the use of the longsword. A martial art created by and for shifters should use their natural attacks. However, both of these should be reflected by the use of feats - and the model of Whirling Steel Strike is a logical one to use to allow shifters to use their natural attacks as monk weapons. If you want to in some way have monk training increase the damage of natural attacks, or vice versa, that also seems like a feat to me. A monk's feats represent the style of martial art he's trained in, and that's what I'd use to create an Eldeen Animal Style.
korcheck 03-22-07, 12:43 PM	you kill me sixx I love the metaphors and analogies you come up with.
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 12:44 PM	you kill me sixx I love the metaphors and analogies you come up with. I am a DM at heart. My purpose is to enforce rules and amuse at the same time. :) A monk's feats represent the style of martial art he's trained in, and that's what I'd use to create an Eldeen Animal Style. The all Shifter kung fu movie, Shadow of the Ghost Tiger, is sure to be a blockbuster smash! ;)
Hellcow 03-22-07, 12:45 PM	I dunno. Depending on the philosophical bend of the master, perhaps the teacher doesn't want all of his student's fights to end with a death? Kinda hard to stun a guy with a claw attack. Exactly. A shifter COULD train in a style that teaches Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist, choosing to ignore his deadly claw attacks. Or he could learn a style that uses them in battle. The bonus feats selected by a monk define the martial art. I think creating shifter-specific feats and allowing them as optional choices when a monk can normally select bonus feats addresses the issue, and it's what I'd do.
korcheck 03-22-07, 12:57 PM	so my next question is: in developping this feat would you require the prerequesite of weapons focus for the intended natural attack as the other feats have as well? that is my problem with it because once again it would take away another preciuos bonus feat from the shifters.
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 01:02 PM	so my next question is: in developping this feat would you require the prerequesite of weapons focus for the intended natural attack as the other feats have as well? that is my problem with it because once again it would take away another preciuos bonus feat from the shifters. Nah, I'd make it a racial pre-req. If the feat granted use of Claws in a FOB, then a pre-req of being a Razorclaw and some respectable BAB level would work fine for me. The Bite version would be satisfied by being a Longtooth and meeting the BAB pre-req. If you decided to go seriously nuts and take an Extra Shifter Feat (longtooth) for inclusion of your bite in the FOB, then you could get the "bite version" of the Claw FOB feat simply having the ability to bite via the ESF feat and the BAB requirement. Sounds fair on paper but I'd have to playtest it.
Hellcow 03-22-07, 01:05 PM	so my next question is: in developping this feat would you require the prerequesite of weapons focus for the intended natural attack as the other feats have as well? that is my problem with it because once again it would take away another preciuos bonus feat from the shifters. I agree with Kid SixXx. Having to have the natural weapon is a restriction in its own right. I think having to use one bonus feat makes sense, but I think requiring weapon focus would be overkill (I'd forgotten the other feats required it).
korcheck 03-22-07, 01:06 PM	dang i was hoping to be able to incorperate this feat by first level but for game perposes it does make sense. I hate game balance lol:D
korcheck 03-22-07, 01:07 PM	I agree with Kid SixXx. Having to have the natural weapon is a restriction in its own right. I think having to use one bonus feat makes sense, but I think requiring weapon focus would be overkill (I'd forgotten the other feats required it). oh so then first level might be feasible?
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 01:11 PM	oh so then first level might be feasible? If you were a 1st lvl Razorclaw monk, you'd have to burn your only feat slot (you're not a human) to use the Claw FoB feat, so yeah I'd make the BAB pre-req whatever the BAB level is for a first level monk. Now if your DEX stat sucked, you'd probably go last all of the time in combat because your initiative rolls might go horribly awry & might get killed before you got the chance to flurry (ie. no Healing Factor feat to offset dmg when you shifted because you took Claw FOB) but those are the hard decisions that come with figuring out your build.
korcheck 03-22-07, 01:22 PM	Unfortunately I have been accused of cheating on multiple occasions for my ability roles due in part to my uncanny ability to drop 16's and 18's ALOT. I have only ever had 1 charachter with a below average score. My current character the monk shifter i am developing due to this thread has: str16, dex18, con16, int12, wis18, cha11 and this was a bad day for me. so init isn't a problem (sort of). unfortunately also my luck doe not follow me into the game I have even made DM's watch me roll to prove this because some believe if i do well in one or vice versa it should be the same always. anyway i am trying to develop a feat right now for this to run by my DM when next we play.
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 01:26 PM	Unfortunately I have been accused of cheating on multiple occasions for my ability roles due in part to my uncanny ability to drop 16's and 18's ALOT. I have only ever had 1 charachter with a below average score. My current character the monk shifter i am developing due to this thread has: str16, dex18, con16, int12, wis18, cha11 and this was a bad day for me. so init isn't a problem (sort of). unfortunately also my luck doe not follow me into the game I have even made DM's watch me roll to prove this because some believe if i do well in one or vice versa it should be the same always. anyway i am trying to develop a feat right now for this to run by my DM when next we play. Yeah, you've got some strategically placed 18's of a suspect nature there, but your DM has never heard of an elite array? Holy smokes, why would the DM complain about stat rolls? If it is someone that should have heroic ability stats, it should be the freaking heroes (namely the PC's). I don't worry about my players with the magical dice. I simply adjust the threats to challenge them enough to make them paranoid, without giving the impression that I'm out to murder them all.
korcheck 03-22-07, 01:33 PM	Yeah, you've got some strategically placed 18's of a suspect nature there, but your DM has never heard of an elite array? Holy smokes, why would the DM complain about stat rolls? If it is someone that should have heroic ability stats, it should be the freaking heroes (namely the PC's). I don't worry about my players with the magical dice. I simply adjust the threats to challenge them enough to make them paranoid, without giving the impression that I'm out to murder them all. Do I know you? That is exactly what he does lol. Well that and ambushes, i have never been able to ambush a bad guy to date but they always get me right where they want me. i usually see it coming when he asks for our character sheets and then starts rolling everyones spot and listen checks for them.
korcheck 03-22-07, 01:35 PM	of course when i am DM it easier to ambush the pc's since they made my pc/npc the rouge of the group lol!:)
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 01:36 PM	Do I know you? That is exactly what he does lol. Well that and ambushes, i have never been able to ambush a bad guy to date but they always get me right where they want me. i usually see it coming when he asks for our character sheets and then starts rolling everyones spot and listen checks for them. Well I'm not that deliberate. I'm sure that there are DM's that would respond to your Claw FOB proposition by having you fight nothing but undead (that you couldn't crit) for the rest of your career. Either that, or everything would have DR/somethingotherthanslashing, since your claws can't normally bypass DR (Yep you guessed it! Yet more feat slots to burn to gain the ability to bypass specific forms of DR!). I don't set up scenarios where it is impossible for the PC's to win, but victory certainly isn't guaranteed. The popular notion that a DM's relationship with his players has to be adversarial is really strange to me.
Hellcow 03-22-07, 01:39 PM	If you were a 1st lvl Razorclaw monk, you'd have to burn your only feat slot (you're not a human) to use the Claw FoB feat... Actually, I'd personally allow you to take the "Claw as Monk Weapon" feat in place of one of the bonus feats a monk normally selects at 1st or 2nd level. In my eyes, the point would be that your form of martial arts incorporates natural weapons in place of grappling or stunning. So I would let you do it at 1st level without losing another feat - but you would lose stunning or grappling.
korcheck 03-22-07, 01:40 PM	niether does he and if it is a good feat he will let me use it. but if you ever play with him if he jokes about killing a charater you can bet fate will step in and help lol.:D he tries not to do that anymore.
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 01:43 PM	Actually, I'd personally allow you to take the "Claw as Monk Weapon" feat in place of one of the bonus feats a monk normally selects at 1st or 2nd level. In my eyes, the point would be that your form of martial arts incorporates natural weapons in place of grappling or stunning. So I would let you do it at 1st level without losing another feat - but you would lose stunning or grappling. That seems fair but losing stunning? Yikes. I think I'd rather just throw kicks or haymakers.
korcheck 03-22-07, 01:49 PM	That seems fair but losing stunning? Yikes. I think I'd rather just throw kicks or haymakers. its a style preference if you're going to make a shifter monk go with what he knows. so i am.
Hellcow 03-22-07, 02:03 PM	That seems fair but losing stunning? Yikes. I think I'd rather just throw kicks or haymakers. Though in a sense, that's exactly the point. Of course, I'm not saying you HAVE to lose stunning; I'm saying I'd provide a monk with the option to take the feat at first or second level in place of an existing monk bonus feat. In this way, it's no different from a fighter bonus feat. You could CHOOSE to expend your standard first level feat slot to take the feat (or your 3rd level feat slot, or 6th, or 9th...) - but if you have other plans for those slots, you could take it as a bonus feat in place of one of the other bonus feat options. Again, to me the whole point is that the feats define the monastic style. You can be a monk who's style is about stunning and deflecting arrows, who has learned on his own to use his claws (expending the personal feat slot). Or you can say that you are part of a shifter school, and say that anyone who belongs to this school will possess "Claw Flurry" and Combat Reflexes as their bonus feats.
Romulus LoneWolf 03-22-07, 10:59 PM	I'm with Hellcow on this one. I picture Shifter Longtooth martial arts as being very similar to Tiger Fist Style (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHC8zszqp1w)...
Pivotal 03-23-07, 08:00 AM	I saw someone mentioned gauntlets here. They probably could be used within the rules as it says in their description that they count as striking unarmed.
Dragom 03-24-07, 02:50 AM	That seems fair but losing stunning? Yikes. I think I'd rather just throw kicks or haymakers. But stunning fist is roughly equal to attacking at a -2 -2 -2 at fist level for 3+ con bonus rounds, Wait, -1 -1 -1 with the str bonus... Using 1d4's instead of 1d6's... It's a good solid choice, it does give you a lot of attacks and no one really thinks they have enough of those at 1st. It helps to fuse class and racial abilities. But it doesn't make it a clearly better idea then a longstrider monk. and that is very important.