Shifter PrC Bear/Tiger warrior [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shifter PrC Bear/Tiger warrior [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PHaRGoTH
04-05-07, 10:30 AM Hi!

Im playing a Eberron campaign and my char is a Shifter Razorclaws Barbarian.

I decided that at level 8 i will take the Prestige class WereTouched Master,
Tiger inharance, i spent the 2 skill points to learn how to read/write and
manage to take skill ranks in knowledge nature.

So far so good, but after that when a reach level 13 i was thinking to take
the Bear Warrior PrC, but my DM thinks that becouse my inharance is tiger it
doesn't look good that my char becouse he has tiger inharance shapechange to a
bear, so he said that if i manage to create a alternative "Tiger Warrior" he
would let me take the PrC.

After sometime, what a could find was the Leopard (CR2) to take the Black
Bear (CR2) place and the Tiger (CR4) to take the Brown Bear (CR4) place.
So i camed up with this equivalences:

At Bear Warrior Level 1 you have:

BEAR, BLACK - Medium Animal

Armor Class: +2 natural
Attack: Claw 1d4
Full Attack: 2 claws 1d4 and bite 1d6
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Abilities: Str +8, Dex +2, Con +4

Skills: A black bear has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.

For Tiger Warrior Level 1 you would have:

LEOPARD - Medium Animal

Armor Class: +1 natural
Attack: Bite 1d6
Full Attack: Bite 1d6 and 2 claws 1d3
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d3
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Abilities: Str +6, Dex +8, Con +4

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack.
It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an
attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it
establishes a hold and can rake.
Pounce (Ex): If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including
two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus melee max bonus, damage 1d3.
Skills: Leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +4 racial bonus on
Hide and Move Silently checks. Leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and
Climb checks. A leopard can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if
rushed or threatened. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide
bonus improves to +8.

At Bear Warrior level 5 you have:

BEAR, BROWN - Large Animal

Armor Class: +5 natural
Attack: Claw 1d8
Full Attack: 2 claws 1d8 and bite 2d6
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Abilities: Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a brown bear must hit with a claw
attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without
provoking an attack of opportunity.
Skills: A brown bear has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.

For Tiger Warrior Level 5 you would have

TIGER - Large Animal

Armor Class: +3 natural
Attack: Claw 1d8
Full Attack: 2 claws 1d8 and bite 2d6
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d8
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Abilities: Str +12, Dex +4, Con +6

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a tiger must hit with a claw or bite
attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking
an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and
can rake.
Pounce (Ex): If a tiger charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two
rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus melee max bonus, damage 1d8.
Skills: Tigers have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks.
*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.

I didn´t take time looking at the last transformations mainly becouse it's a 20
level campaign so unless we decide to try an epic level campaign i will never get
to the 10th level of Bear warrior with this character, i would have to get to char
level 23.

Well, I made this tables following what it sais in the DM book about creating
monsters PC's so if i got mistaken in something please correct me.

First of all I would like your opinion on this "mutation" of the PrC. I know that the Leopard is more powerfull then the black bear but o couldn´t find any tiger/feline equivalent to the black bear in powers, if you have any better idea o would apreciate it. as for the tiger although he has more special attacks, his attribute bonus are less.

Another problem i face is with the leopart transformation, Specialy if a rage and
Shift at the same time. Althow i also got the longtooth trait my Primary attack
in shift is the claws, so how would i resolve a shift and rage into leopard? what
will my attacks be? the shifter ones or the rage/transformation ones?
PHaRGoTH
04-06-07, 06:52 AM help? :(
DwarfPcfan
04-06-07, 08:40 AM O.K I don't mean to be mean but your current idea definetly does not work.

Cats are muc better then bears in most circonstances, look at your animals, sure bears have higher strenght but cats get pounce and improved grab (as well as rake if you manage to grapple, easy with a shifter character).

Even if you have lower strenght, shifting into felines if definetly better the bear form. You have a equal (normal number of attacks) or higher (if rake is grab is succesful)

Plus pounce is and insane ability for a character to have (full attack at the end of a charge, think about very carefully)

Thats not to mention the better skill bonuses

I don't mean to be annoying or to be mean but as a useful tip consider these traits.

When carefully optimized with equal ressources, your tiger warrior will shred a bear warrior in moments...
farscapesg1
04-06-07, 11:31 AM O.K I don't mean to be mean but your current idea definetly does not work.

Cats are muc better then bears in most circonstances, look at your animals, sure bears have higher strenght but cats get pounce and improved grab (as well as rake if you manage to grapple, easy with a shifter character).

Even if you have lower strenght, shifting into felines if definetly better the bear form. You have a equal (normal number of attacks) or higher (if rake is grab is succesful)

Plus pounce is and insane ability for a character to have (full attack at the end of a charge, think about very carefully)

Thats not to mention the better skill bonuses

I don't mean to be annoying or to be mean but as a useful tip consider these traits.

When carefully optimized with equal ressources, your tiger warrior will shred a bear warrior in moments...

My only comment to this is that he was already taking the Tiger version of Weretouched Master. So... he already has pounce when in normal shifter form, so gaining it in "cat" form makes perfect sense.

Bears do get slightly better Natural Armor, but otherwise I agree that most of the "cats" get better combat abilities overall. The Pounce and Rake abilities are VERY powerful. For example, my razorclaw barbarian/scout does some really nasty damage on charges ;)
Melvin the Mediocre
04-12-07, 11:08 AM My only comment to this is that he was already taking the Tiger version of Weretouched Master. So... he already has pounce when in normal shifter form, so gaining it in "cat" form makes perfect sense.

Bears do get slightly better Natural Armor, but otherwise I agree that most of the "cats" get better combat abilities overall. The Pounce and Rake abilities are VERY powerful. For example, my razorclaw barbarian/scout does some really nasty damage on charges ;)

The way I read it, pounce was removed in the errata version of the WtM.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a
This means that either:

A) The DM follows the errata, so he doesn't get pounce thus he may as well take the bear inheritance and use the bear warrior as written. OR -
B) The DM ignores the errata, so getting the pounce ability from the Tiger Warrior is not all that big of a deal.
farscapesg1
04-12-07, 10:30 PM Actually, the errata only changed the 5th level abilities for the prestige class. The third level abilities (when the tiger form gets Pounce) were not changed in any way.
Melvin the Mediocre
04-13-07, 02:25 PM Actually, the errata only changed the 5th level abilities for the prestige class. The third level abilities (when the tiger form gets Pounce) were not changed in any way.

You are correct! They added in a Were Touched Master III, and double confused me by saying that the effects stacked with other effects such as Were Touched Master I, ignoring WTM II. I'm really glad you brought that up.

At any rate, back on topic I think the character gets pounce one way or another, so getting it from another prestige class is not so over the top. Perhaps a little stronger, but not over whelming. Not that my opinion amounts to a hill of beans in his campaign ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PHaRGoTH 04-05-07, 10:30 AM	Hi! Im playing a Eberron campaign and my char is a Shifter Razorclaws Barbarian. I decided that at level 8 i will take the Prestige class WereTouched Master, Tiger inharance, i spent the 2 skill points to learn how to read/write and manage to take skill ranks in knowledge nature. So far so good, but after that when a reach level 13 i was thinking to take the Bear Warrior PrC, but my DM thinks that becouse my inharance is tiger it doesn't look good that my char becouse he has tiger inharance shapechange to a bear, so he said that if i manage to create a alternative "Tiger Warrior" he would let me take the PrC. After sometime, what a could find was the Leopard (CR2) to take the Black Bear (CR2) place and the Tiger (CR4) to take the Brown Bear (CR4) place. So i camed up with this equivalences: At Bear Warrior Level 1 you have: BEAR, BLACK - Medium Animal Armor Class: +2 natural Attack: Claw 1d4 Full Attack: 2 claws 1d4 and bite 1d6 Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Abilities: Str +8, Dex +2, Con +4 Skills: A black bear has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. For Tiger Warrior Level 1 you would have: LEOPARD - Medium Animal Armor Class: +1 natural Attack: Bite 1d6 Full Attack: Bite 1d6 and 2 claws 1d3 Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d3 Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Abilities: Str +6, Dex +8, Con +4 Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake. Pounce (Ex): If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks. Rake (Ex): Attack bonus melee max bonus, damage 1d3. Skills: Leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A leopard can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8. At Bear Warrior level 5 you have: BEAR, BROWN - Large Animal Armor Class: +5 natural Attack: Claw 1d8 Full Attack: 2 claws 1d8 and bite 2d6 Special Attacks: Improved grab Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Abilities: Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8 Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a brown bear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Skills: A brown bear has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. For Tiger Warrior Level 5 you would have TIGER - Large Animal Armor Class: +3 natural Attack: Claw 1d8 Full Attack: 2 claws 1d8 and bite 2d6 Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d8 Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Abilities: Str +12, Dex +4, Con +6 Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a tiger must hit with a claw or bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake. Pounce (Ex): If a tiger charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks. Rake (Ex): Attack bonus melee max bonus, damage 1d8. Skills: Tigers have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8. I didn´t take time looking at the last transformations mainly becouse it's a 20 level campaign so unless we decide to try an epic level campaign i will never get to the 10th level of Bear warrior with this character, i would have to get to char level 23. Well, I made this tables following what it sais in the DM book about creating monsters PC's so if i got mistaken in something please correct me. First of all I would like your opinion on this "mutation" of the PrC. I know that the Leopard is more powerfull then the black bear but o couldn´t find any tiger/feline equivalent to the black bear in powers, if you have any better idea o would apreciate it. as for the tiger although he has more special attacks, his attribute bonus are less. Another problem i face is with the leopart transformation, Specialy if a rage and Shift at the same time. Althow i also got the longtooth trait my Primary attack in shift is the claws, so how would i resolve a shift and rage into leopard? what will my attacks be? the shifter ones or the rage/transformation ones?
PHaRGoTH 04-06-07, 06:52 AM	help? :(
DwarfPcfan 04-06-07, 08:40 AM	O.K I don't mean to be mean but your current idea definetly does not work. Cats are muc better then bears in most circonstances, look at your animals, sure bears have higher strenght but cats get pounce and improved grab (as well as rake if you manage to grapple, easy with a shifter character). Even if you have lower strenght, shifting into felines if definetly better the bear form. You have a equal (normal number of attacks) or higher (if rake is grab is succesful) Plus pounce is and insane ability for a character to have (full attack at the end of a charge, think about very carefully) Thats not to mention the better skill bonuses I don't mean to be annoying or to be mean but as a useful tip consider these traits. When carefully optimized with equal ressources, your tiger warrior will shred a bear warrior in moments...
farscapesg1 04-06-07, 11:31 AM	O.K I don't mean to be mean but your current idea definetly does not work. Cats are muc better then bears in most circonstances, look at your animals, sure bears have higher strenght but cats get pounce and improved grab (as well as rake if you manage to grapple, easy with a shifter character). Even if you have lower strenght, shifting into felines if definetly better the bear form. You have a equal (normal number of attacks) or higher (if rake is grab is succesful) Plus pounce is and insane ability for a character to have (full attack at the end of a charge, think about very carefully) Thats not to mention the better skill bonuses I don't mean to be annoying or to be mean but as a useful tip consider these traits. When carefully optimized with equal ressources, your tiger warrior will shred a bear warrior in moments... My only comment to this is that he was already taking the Tiger version of Weretouched Master. So... he already has pounce when in normal shifter form, so gaining it in "cat" form makes perfect sense. Bears do get slightly better Natural Armor, but otherwise I agree that most of the "cats" get better combat abilities overall. The Pounce and Rake abilities are VERY powerful. For example, my razorclaw barbarian/scout does some really nasty damage on charges ;)
Melvin the Mediocre 04-12-07, 11:08 AM	My only comment to this is that he was already taking the Tiger version of Weretouched Master. So... he already has pounce when in normal shifter form, so gaining it in "cat" form makes perfect sense. Bears do get slightly better Natural Armor, but otherwise I agree that most of the "cats" get better combat abilities overall. The Pounce and Rake abilities are VERY powerful. For example, my razorclaw barbarian/scout does some really nasty damage on charges ;) The way I read it, pounce was removed in the errata version of the WtM. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a This means that either: A) The DM follows the errata, so he doesn't get pounce thus he may as well take the bear inheritance and use the bear warrior as written. OR - B) The DM ignores the errata, so getting the pounce ability from the Tiger Warrior is not all that big of a deal.
farscapesg1 04-12-07, 10:30 PM	Actually, the errata only changed the 5th level abilities for the prestige class. The third level abilities (when the tiger form gets Pounce) were not changed in any way.
Melvin the Mediocre 04-13-07, 02:25 PM	Actually, the errata only changed the 5th level abilities for the prestige class. The third level abilities (when the tiger form gets Pounce) were not changed in any way. You are correct! They added in a Were Touched Master III, and double confused me by saying that the effects stacked with other effects such as Were Touched Master I, ignoring WTM II. I'm really glad you brought that up. At any rate, back on topic I think the character gets pounce one way or another, so getting it from another prestige class is not so over the top. Perhaps a little stronger, but not over whelming. Not that my opinion amounts to a hill of beans in his campaign ;)