Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Selgard 01-11-08, 05:23 PM	Greetings! I've recently had a Shifter rumble through my mental ramblings, and I've been trying to figure out one that would work passably well in combat, using (preferably) the Shifting natural weapons. (that is- headbut, tooth, or claw). The problem I keep having is that your primary weapon is ONLY available when you are shifting. i.e. 1/day +1/2 shifter feats. That's lead me to Not taking feats to effect their natural weapons, instead relying on them only as an offhand/backup. I would like to find an (i.e. feat friendly) way to have them as primary weapon, and I welcome your ideas. Please though: I am NOT looking for a CO-Board build! I would like to know what you all- those who play in Eberron- have done with your shifters. There just has to be some use for those natural weapons besides a once or twice a day offhand attack. Thanks in advance! Me
Edymnion 01-11-08, 08:28 PM	A few things you can run by your DM to help out: 1) Ask to have the various barbarian rage feats converted into Shifter feats. So, instead of Extra Rage, which gives barbarians more rages per day, you could have Extra Shifts. Instead of Destructive Rage, you could have Destructive Shift. Instead of Intimidating Rage, Intimidating Shift. That way, you can not only customize your shifting more, but you can also get more shifts by taking them. 2) Without checking (my books are packed away at the moment), I believe you only need three natural attacks to qualify for Multiattack (the natural attack version of Two Weapon Fighting). Use Extra Trait to get both Razorclaw and Longtooth, and you will qualify. If it was 4 natural attacks, take Razorclaw Elite to get the Rend natural attack, which will then make you qualify for it. 3) For a shifter focusing primarily on his natural attacks, look into taking levels in Scout and the Eldeen Reachrunner PrC. Combine that with Razorclaw and Razorclaw elite. It will allow you to make a full attack after a charge, which will give you two claws, your rend, a bite if you also have longtooth, and since the definition of a charge involves moving more than 10' in the round, you will get Skirmish damage as well. This will give you 3 normal attacks per round, four when charging. Yeah, I made a shifter that was going to rely on his own natural attacks, and hit the same wall you did. You can get around it though.
Vharuck 01-11-08, 08:37 PM	You might be able to talk your DM into letting you use one of your feats to get constant (though less powerful) natural weapons. Here's my suggestions: Filed Claws After years of sharpening and conditioning your nails, you've developed them into effective combat weapons. Benefit: You gain one claw attack per hand. You may strike with each of your claw attacks at your full attack bonus. Your claws deal 1d3 plus your Strength modifier of slashing damage (if Medium, otherwise refer to damage scaling table). You otherwise follow the normal rules for claw attacks. Special: If another spell or effect, such as shifting, grants you a claw attack, you may use either its damage or the damage noted in this feat. Sharpened Fangs After years of sharpening and conditioning your teeth, you've developed them into effective combat weapons. Benefit: You gain a bite attack. You may strike with it at your full attack bonus, or as a secondary attack in addition to a full attack at a -5 attack penalty. Your bite deals 1d4 plus half of your Strength modifier of piercing damage (if Medium, otherwise refer to damage scaling table). You otherwise follow the normal rules for bite attacks. Special: If another spell or effect, such as shifting, grants you a bite attack, you may use either its damage or the damage noted in this feat.
Selgard 01-11-08, 10:54 PM	Thanks for the input gents! I was pondering the Moonshifter (i think its called) PRC outta Races of Eberron, and the Rage->Shifter feat idea you mentioned would blend nicely with that. (the PRC lets you have 2 secondary shifter traits instead of one.. so tooth/claw/headbutt!)
SMDVogrin 01-12-08, 11:17 AM	2) Without checking (my books are packed away at the moment), I believe you only need three natural attacks to qualify for Multiattack (the natural attack version of Two Weapon Fighting). Use Extra Trait to get both Razorclaw and Longtooth, and you will qualify. If it was 4 natural attacks, take Razorclaw Elite to get the Rend natural attack, which will then make you qualify for it. Actually, "Shifter Multiattack" (ECS p60) does the same as the Monster Manual Multiattack, and simply requires Longtooth or Razorclaw, plus a BAB of +6. Incidentally, the Rend feat is "Great Rend" (ECS p54), not Razorclaw Elite. Razorclaw elite is in Races of Eberron, allows both claw attacks on a charge, rather than just one. 3) For a shifter focusing primarily on his natural attacks, look into taking levels in Scout and the Eldeen Reachrunner PrC. Combine that with Razorclaw and Razorclaw elite. It will allow you to make a full attack after a charge, which will give you two claws, your rend, a bite if you also have longtooth, and since the definition of a charge involves moving more than 10' in the round, you will get Skirmish damage as well. This will give you 3 normal attacks per round, four when charging. You don't even need the Eldeen Reachrunner to get Pouncing attacks. Lion Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion, replace the fast movement from Barb1 with the Pounce ability from the Monster Manual) gives it to you with a one level dip in Barb. And if you take Barbarian, you can take Shifter Savagery, which means your weapons count as two sizes larger while Raging and Shifting at once. Also, look at the Warshaper PrC from Complete Warrior. 4 levels of that means: 1. Your natural weapons are one size larger (1d6 claws instead of 1d4, 2d6 claws with Shifter Savagery) 2. +4 Str, +4 Con 3. Immune to Critical hits and Stunning 4. Have +5 ft reach with your natural weapons 5. Fast Healing 2 And, as a Shifter, you automatically qualify for the PrC at BAB +4. I figure my Shifter Barbarian/Warshaper will be able to hit 3d6 claw damage if neccessary: 1d4 base, 1d6 for morphic weapons, 2d6 in Shifter Savagery, 3d6 after using a Braid of Dire Shifting to enlarge myself.
kelvinaw273 01-12-08, 01:08 PM	If you start with a shifter ranger, for example, you can initially use weapons, keep your feats for shifter feats and take archery as your combat style. When you can qualify, go for Weretouched Master (its in the ECS) for bonus shifter feats. By the time you hit mid-levels you will have enough shifts per day to handle most encounters. Now, the shifter I'm playing is a ranger 1/spirit shaman 5, and going for Moonspeaker. This give me loads of spells to hurl in at a distance (plus I'm an effective party healer), I can supply missile fire through a composite long bow I carry, and I can buff if I want to deal with anything that gets close enough to fight me - so far, this hasn't happened often. Last session I got cornered by a Karnathi zombie, which suited me fine as Undead were my favored enemy: I was already buffed with Animalistic Power and Magic Fang (just in case), so when I popped the claws I was making two attacks at +3 on my BAB and +5 on my damage - not game breaking, but respectable for a primary spell-caster. Once I get a few more feats I'll use more buffs, like Enhanced Shifting and Extend Shifting - spells which you could presumably get in potion form, or in a charged device you can use.
ChaoticGood 01-12-08, 01:28 PM	If you're starting out at 1st level, this can be a problem. You will need to have a regular melee weapon for most combats, and save your shifter weapon for important fights. However, you don't need to be able to shift at will to overcome this problem. Shifting 4 times per day (equal to the suggested average number of encounters per day) is enough to be a reliable combatant. Therefore, you need either six shifter feats, or one application of the homebrewed Extra Shifting feat. (It should be pointed out that this should be a General feat, not a Shifter feat!) One thing to consider is how you will be able to keep up at later levels, when monsters start to have damage reduction. I would suggest that you be either a TWF Razorclaw Ranger or take at least one level of Druid, so as to have access to magic fang. If you go the Ranger route (highly recommended), take the 9th level Shifter Ranger substitution level in Races of Eberron, which allows you to treat your shifting weapon as adamantium. In any case, it would still be a good idea to carry a simple bludgeoning weapon around for those monsters that have DR vs. slashing and piercing. If you take that level of Druid, you'll get access to shillelagh to back this up. :)
Edymnion 01-12-08, 09:43 PM	Actually, "Shifter Multiattack" (ECS p60) does the same as the Monster Manual Multiattack, and simply requires Longtooth or Razorclaw, plus a BAB of +6. Incidentally, the Rend feat is "Great Rend" (ECS p54), not Razorclaw Elite. Razorclaw elite is in Races of Eberron, allows both claw attacks on a charge, rather than just one.That was it, thanks. Its been a while since I dug out the details. Great Rend was whenever you hit with both claws, and elite let you use both claws after a charge (which would then trigger the rend).
kelvinaw273 01-13-08, 01:06 PM	If you're starting out at 1st level, this can be a problem. You will need to have a regular melee weapon for most combats, and save your shifter weapon for important fights. However, you don't need to be able to shift at will to overcome this problem. Shifting 4 times per day (equal to the suggested average number of encounters per day) is enough to be a reliable combatant. Therefore, you need either six shifter feats, or one application of the homebrewed Extra Shifting feat. (It should be pointed out that this should be a General feat, not a Shifter feat!) One thing to consider is how you will be able to keep up at later levels, when monsters start to have damage reduction. I would suggest that you be either a TWF Razorclaw Ranger or take at least one level of Druid, so as to have access to magic fang. If you go the Ranger route (highly recommended), take the 9th level Shifter Ranger substitution level in Races of Eberron, which allows you to treat your shifting weapon as adamantium. In any case, it would still be a good idea to carry a simple bludgeoning weapon around for those monsters that have DR vs. slashing and piercing. If you take that level of Druid, you'll get access to shillelagh to back this up. :) TWF is useless for a razarclaw shifter (you get two attacks anyway) - Razerclaw Elite and Great Rend are better, as is Shifter Multiattack if you get an extra trait (Longtooth). I would recommend taking the Archery combat option, and dipping a few levels of fighter for the bonus feats (weapon focus or weapon finesse, and so on). Concentrate on Shifter feats with your normal feats to get as many as you can: Beasthide boosts your AC, Shifter Defence gives you damage reduction etc.
ChaoticGood 01-15-08, 01:46 AM	TWF is useless for a razarclaw shifter (you get two attacks anyway) Ah, right... I forgot that natural attacks don't suffer all of those horrible penalties. So I suppose you could be an Archery ranger, too. Either way, you're giving yourself an extra option for dealing damage.
kelvinaw273 01-19-08, 12:29 PM	Ah, right... I forgot that natural attacks don't suffer all of those horrible penalties. So I suppose you could be an Archery ranger, too. Either way, you're giving yourself an extra option for dealing damage. Exactly - most significant use of my claws so far was actually when we were captured and thrown to a pair of baby black dragons to be dinner. Did I fight them? Hell no! I clawed the ropes off me and freed half the party, THEN we fought them!
Nerdicus 01-19-08, 03:06 PM	Shifter monk seems to be the best route for you to take if you want to focus on natural weapons.... I made a shifter monk NPC who started out as a beasthide shifter, and then every feat he got went into more shifter feats. Adding that to the monks already hefty amount of combat feats and usage of natural weapons makes for a deadly combatant that doesn't need any weapons.
LunarWolfPrime 01-19-08, 05:40 PM	Thanks for the input gents! I was pondering the Moonshifter (i think its called) PRC outta Races of Eberron, and the Rage->Shifter feat idea you mentioned would blend nicely with that. (the PRC lets you have 2 secondary shifter traits instead of one.. so tooth/claw/headbutt!) It is MoonSpeaker dude but if you ask me try this 5lvl rouge, 5lvl scout, 5lvl reachrunner, and 5lvl Dread Commando, with twf and twin shift silver kukuri's, as back up weps!
Hideous Phidias 01-24-08, 11:22 PM	I would talk to your DM and ask if maybe you could add shifter feats to the fighter bonus feat list and go fighter. Take a mix of fighter and shifter feats to build a good melee character. In my group we housed ruled that any class bonus feat you get, you can take a any racial feat instead. We found it worked well and made sense because you are just improving natural talents of your race. If that is not for you maybe go Druid with the shifter sub-levels. Then look at the prestige classes for the Druid class. A druid character in Eberron has better feel to it then any other setting,because of the large role they play in the history with the Dragon Below cult.
LunarWolfPrime 01-26-08, 04:32 PM	I would talk to your DM and ask if maybe you could add shifter feats to the fighter bonus feat list and go fighter. Take a mix of fighter and shifter feats to build a good melee character. In my group we housed ruled that any class bonus feat you get, you can take a any racial feat instead. We found it worked well and made sense because you are just improving natural talents of your race. If that is not for you maybe go Druid with the shifter sub-levels. Then look at the prestige classes for the Druid class. A druid character in Eberron has better feel to it then any other setting,because of the large role they play in the history with the Dragon Below cult. 8 shifter sub-lvl druid and 12lvl Moonspeaker is a great combo. Just chose your traits carefuly.
LunarWolfPrime 01-26-08, 04:42 PM	Speaking of traits how many offcial traits are their, I know the first 10 non surian or inscetoid shifters their was a cool climate one in one of the secret of something books but I just can't remeber the name of the trait it acted like feat out of Frostburn though. The reason why I am asking because I want to make 12 moonspeakers as lvl 20 NPC that have alink to each moon that each reprisents and each have a diffrent trait. thery are ment to be mentors allies in time of extrems and as well as the guardian of a shifter artifact that I am working in additon to the judges for a Shifter holiday/contest that I haven cooking up for good long time. But so far I only cout 11 traits I am one short and the other prob is figuring out which trait fits which moon. Any help would be nice oh and sorry about asking this here, but inreguards to htis post good luck with the shifter dude they HOL (Howl Out Loud) Hoooowwwwwlllllll!
Edymnion 01-26-08, 05:00 PM	But so far I only cout 11 traits I am one short and the other prob is figuring out which trait fits which moon.Don't forget about Extra Trait, which will let you mix and match traits for totally new things. Glidewing + Longtooth = Were-Vampire Bat Beasthide + Razorclaw = Were-Velociraptor (simply describe the AC boost as scales instead of leathery hide) Truedive + Dreamsight = Were-Dolphin (ability to see invisible creatures? Can we say Sonar?)
LunarWolfPrime 01-26-08, 06:40 PM	Don't forget about Extra Trait, which will let you mix and match traits for totally new things. Glidewing + Longtooth = Were-Vampire Bat Beasthide + Razorclaw = Were-Velociraptor (simply describe the AC boost as scales instead of leathery hide) Truedive + Dreamsight = Were-Dolphin (ability to see invisible creatures? Can we say Sonar?) I didn't forget about the ESTF with a Moonspeaker they can get 3 traits.
UCsimplyme 02-01-08, 01:56 PM	I would possibly looking at going into Weretouched master as a Longtooth and focusing on a Tiger build. This would give you two claw attacks and a bite attack that can be augmented by Shifter Savagery. The key is finding something that can get you by damage reduction.
skrap-san 02-01-08, 06:22 PM	I would possibly looking at going into Weretouched master as a Longtooth and focusing on a Tiger build. This would give you two claw attacks and a bite attack that can be augmented by Shifter Savagery. The key is finding something that can get you by damage reduction. Magic fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) and permanency. That would grant you the initial magic one to overcome it.
Edymnion 02-01-08, 08:12 PM	Magic fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) and permanency. That would grant you the initial magic one to overcome it.Slight problem there, actually. When shifting ends, so does the natural weapon. There is no precedence that I am aware of for something being enchanted ceasing to exist, and then being remade later on and still having the original enchantments.
skrap-san 02-02-08, 02:35 AM	That is true.
LunarWolfPrime 02-02-08, 08:32 PM	Slight problem there, actually. When shifting ends, so does the natural weapon. There is no precedence that I am aware of for something being enchanted ceasing to exist, and then being remade later on and still having the original enchantments. make amulet version of the claw bracers for the long tooth's, or head gear for the gorebrutes why don't you.
Edymnion 02-04-08, 08:21 PM	make amulet version of the claw bracers for the long tooth's, or head gear for the gorebrutes why don't you.Well, its not a Permanent Magic Fang spell anymore then, it is? :P
no-sides-sameeth 02-05-08, 06:26 PM	I love Shifters and play them all the time. The best Natural Attack Shifter I had was a Shifter Ranger/Monk/WTM (even post nerf they have some things to offer over a couple of levels, their capstone is much weaker.) Using The CV feat that allows stacking Monk and Ranger for Unarmed Attack Damage, you can have a fairly decent BAB if you take mostly Ranger levels. Plus Ranger spells can be useful on the build. I also considered a Scout/Monk/Ranger using Skirmish to add onto the damage.
LunarWolfPrime 02-05-08, 09:35 PM	I love Shifters and play them all the time. The best Natural Attack Shifter I had was a Shifter Ranger/Monk/WTM (even post nerf they have some things to offer over a couple of levels, their capstone is much weaker.) Using The CV feat that allows stacking Monk and Ranger for Unarmed Attack Damage, you can have a fairly decent BAB if you take mostly Ranger levels. Plus Ranger spells can be useful on the build. I also considered a Scout/Monk/Ranger using Skirmish to add onto the damage. Q and comment Q : what the :censored: is WTM comment: take alook at the way of the shackled beast monk style debuted in Dragon or dungion mags I am not sure which take a look through the crystal keep feat pdf look for fear no binds, beast strike, and Disrupting strike, the style gives you a special abli if you have 9 ranks in jump, and TWF at or before lvl 6 you get the abli to do a flurry of blows at the end of a jumping charge yes a pouncing flurry?
teshen 02-06-08, 12:58 PM	Well, though not official, I've had some success with some homebrew shifter barbarian substitution levels. The original discussion for shifter barbarian substitution levels (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-738146) was here. Thanks to FreAkOuTRG. Table: Shifter Barbarian Substitution Levels Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Uncanny Dodge Driven Rage 5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Improved Uncanny Dodge Shifter Elite 11 +11 +7 +3 +3 Greater Rage Wild Rage 20 +20 +12 +6 +6 Mighty Rage Greater Rage, Rage 6/day Driven Rage: A shifter barbarian has learned to tap into his primal connection between the anger of his lycanthropic forebarers and his own raging. Feats that include the prerequisite the ability to rage or frenzy (such as destructive rage, extend rage, extra rage, instantaneous rage, intimidating rage, and raging luck) count as shifting feats for the purposes of number of rounds that shifting lasts and number of shifts per day. This ability replaces the uncanny dodge ability. Shifter Elite: At 5th level, the bond between your shifting and raging strengthens, and you gain abilities when under the effects of both. Depending on his heritage, a shifter barbarian gains: Beasthide: When shifting and raging, a beasthide shifter barbarian gains +2 DR/Silver for every 4 barbarian levels the shifter has. Cliffwalk: When shifting and raging, a cliffwalk shifter barbarian gains +10 Climb speed for every 4 barbarian levels the shifter has. Dreamsight: A shifter gains an animal companion as a ranger of half his level when not shifting and raging. When shifting and raging, the shifter barbarian is treated as a ranger of his level . Gorebrute: When shifting and raging, a gorebrute shifter barbarian can make a full attack (including his gore attack) at the end of a charge. Longstride: When shifting and raging, a longstride shifter barbarian gains a +10 bonus to land speed for every 4 barbarian levels the shifter has. Longtooth: When shifting and raging, a longtooth shifter barbarian gains a +2 bonus to damage rolls with his bite attack for every 4 barbarian levels the shifter has. Razorclaws: When shifting and raging, a razorclaws shifter barbarian gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls with his claw attacks for every 4 barbarian levels the shifter has. Swiftwing: When shifting and raging, a swiftwing shifter barbarian gains a +10 bonus to fly speed for every 4 barbarian levels the shifter has. Truedive: When shifting and raging, a truedive shifter barbarian gains a +10 bonus to swim speed for every 4 barbarian levels the shifter has. Wildhunt: When shifting and raging, a wildhunt shifter barbarian gains blindsight out to 10 ft. +5 ft. for every 4 barbarian levels the shifter has after level 4. This ability replaces the improved uncanny dodge ability. Wild Rage: A shifter barbarians raging and shifting abilities become one and the same. The rage class feature is replace by "Wild Rage". A shifter barbarian may use this a number of times per day equal to 1+1/4 levels, but loses the ability to rage normally. The shifter gains all the effects of raging (+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 morale bonus to Will saves, but -2 AC and can't perform some actions) and all the benifits of shifting. Thus, a 12th level longtooth shifter barbarian gains a +6 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will saves and a bite attack that deals 1d6 +9 (Plus 1-1/2 strength modifier) points of damage, but takes a -2 penalty to AC and can't perform certain actions. A wild rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + (newly improved) Constitution modifier. When wild raging, the shifter barbarian gains the benefits of the shifter elite class ability. Feats and class abilities that improve either shifting or raging improve wild rage. A shifters shift/day is kept seperate from this ability. Thus, at 12th level with 4 shifter/rage feats, a shifter barbarian can wild rage 4 times a day, and shift 3 times a day. Abilities in red removed
no-sides-sameeth 02-06-08, 01:48 PM	Sorry, WTM = Were Touched Master, a Shifter-only PrC in ECS. It originally saw quite a bit of use in CO builds because, as written, the Tiger WTM gets tremendous stat bonuses when shifting. It was nerfed considerably in ECS errata. I still think it offers some nice bumps for certain Shifter builds, but I am in the minority in this, I believe, as most seem to feel it was nerfed into uselessness.
Edymnion 02-06-08, 06:04 PM	I still think it offers some nice bumps for certain Shifter builds, but I am in the minority in this, I believe, as most seem to feel it was nerfed into uselessness.Depends on where you ask. What the CO boards consider nerfed into uselessness basically means "It is no longer capable of game breaking insanity". ;)
Seidaku 02-07-08, 07:01 PM	From the moment I read through the ECS, I thought the idea of playing a Shifter barbarian/weretouched master would be cool. Of course, that was before I read the errata. But, even with the non-broken weretouched master, I still think that concept can be both neat and effective. For one thing, without using house rules, I'm pretty sure the weretouched master is the only way that a melee-focused shifter can get bonus shifter feats. Given how reliant shifting is upon having lots of shifter feats, this makes the class *hugely* important if you want to focus on shifting as your primary offense. I agree wholeheartedly with those who recommend allowing shifters to take shifter feats instead of fighter bonus feats (or really, *any* bonus feat that isn't specific), as well as creating "shifting" versions of the rage feats. I was always hoping they might release such feats officially, but with 4th ed on the way it seems unlikely. If you don't have the luxury of having these options, it makes shifting as your main offensive strategy pretty hard until high level. For one thing, there's a dearth of good shifter feats without huge prerequisites. As a whole, I like the shifter feats a lot- but you pretty much have to completely dedicate your character to them to get to the good ones. A lot require a +6 BAB, or having two other shifter feats first. That means you can't take Extra Shifter Trait until 6th level at the earliest, which means you're stuck with one (or two, if you have claws) lackluster natural attack until then. Not to mention that, since you're spending your level based feats on shifter feats, you won't be terribly notable with a weapon. Of course, once you can start taking things like Improved Shifter Multiattack and Shifter Savagery, it can get pretty nuts. I'm not sure how well it stacks against some of the hideously min/maxy builds you can find in Character Optimization, but a shifter lion totem barbarian/warshaper/weretouched master can dish out some pretty absurd damage around level 8-10. I threw some basic numbers together and it seems as though a shifter can hit something like, +18 Str from raging and shifting with a braid of dire shifting. Which, to me, seems pretty ridiculous. And if you work in the skirmish damage angle (given that, with pounce either from the lion totem barbarian or the weretouched master, you'll be getting a full attack on every charge), it can get even more sick: even if you have just +2d6 skirmish damage, the fact that you get it on every one of your 5+ natural attacks is outrageous. Also consider that, with shifter multi-attack, all of your attacks will be with at LEAST your highest attack bonus minus 2. Plus, the image of sprouting fangs, claws, and goodness knows what else as you double in size and pounce onto your now horrified foe is simply brilliant. And the rest of the time, you get to walk around looking normal (albeit slightly scruffy) and weaponless.
kelvinaw273 02-09-08, 12:46 PM	I worked out a concept for a psychic warrior shifter, which got around the damage resistance issue rather nicely and added some little perks and enhancements.
LunarWolfPrime 02-10-08, 08:04 PM	I worked out a concept for a psychic warrior shifter, which got around the damage resistance issue rather nicely and added some little perks and enhancements. now try makeing a shifter soulknife sub-lvl's that will give you a major headach