Shifters: Per-Encounter instead of Per-Day. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shifters: Per-Encounter instead of Per-Day. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Neutronium_Dragon
05-16-07, 07:42 PM 3E seems to be heading in the direction of per-encounter abilities rather than per-day abilities. The Tome of Battle is an excellent example of this, but other recent additions such as skill tricks are also pointing in that direction. (Star Wars seems to be undergoing the same transition.)

This got me thinking: Could shifting be altered to work this way too? Currently you get X uses/day with each change lasting Y rounds, but what if it was simply X rounds/encounter and you can do it as many times as you have encounters?

It seems like swapping the current uses per day into place of the rounds per encounter would work: They start out able to shift for one round per encounter and gain one more round worth for every two shifter feats they add.

This could also be done with barbarian rage, in fact - the uses/day becomes rounds/encounter there too.
Melvin the Mediocre
05-17-07, 10:04 AM I have to say I'm not to wild about the idea. In case of shifters it is not that big of a deal, but it takes the thinking and planning out of the race. You no longer have to decide it you should shift or not as there is really no down side.

Barbarians on the other hand would be royally screwed by this rule. You can rage for 1 round per encounter and then you are exausted? BOO!
Angerland
05-17-07, 12:21 PM I am playing a shifter and I agree that making it per encounter might be a bit much. You might as well be shifted all day then it seems, especially for the more combat oriented traits (razorclaw, longtooth, gorebrute).

I could see the number of times per day maybe going up every few levels (maybe 1/day per 3-4 levels) instead of for every two feats. Shifters now have to decide if they are going to concentrate on shifting or what their class would normally use feats for. Not a big deal for low melee type classes ( I mean the ones that don't sit on the fron tlines per se)

So far I like things the way they are though.
Arcane Guyver
05-17-07, 01:16 PM They start out able to shift for one round per encounter and gain one more round worth for every two shifter feats they add.

This could also be done with barbarian rage, in fact - the uses/day becomes rounds/encounter there too.

That kinda sucks. I dunno about you, but I'd rather rage once per day for a bunch of rounds than rage for exactly 1 round, and then be fatigued for the rest of the encounter. As far as the shifters going per round rather than per day...I dunno. I'd rather see the number of times they can shift increase by HD, rather than by feat count.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-17-07, 09:44 PM In the case of the barbarian rage, the fatigue bit could probably be dropped.

As far as taking the planning out - that's something I view as a good change rather than a bad one, and is part of the reason behind the changeover within the system as a whole with things like the ToB and skill tricks.

Right now, the system assumes four encounters per day - which rarely turns out to be the case. But the per-day abilities are metered on that frequently-false assumption. The end result is that per-day abilities usually end up being much more potent (because there are fewer encounters so they have a bigger impact) or ineffective (because there are more encounters so the impact is weaker). Plus you have the whole guessing game, which isn't much fun from the player's standpoint when they guess wrong about whether or not this is the "correct" encounter to use the ability in, or the fact that a character in this model is stuck with a gimmick of, "I'm underpowered in all of these encounters so that I can be appropriately powered in one other one."

In any case, *if* someone is going to implement a change of this sort (let's leave aside the "do I like this paradigm" debate and assume that the person does), what makes for a balanced per-encounter approach rather than per-day approach?

I've already suggested changing the number of uses per day over to the number of rounds per encounter, so that a shifter starts off being able to shift for one round per encounter and gains an additional round for every two shifter feats (they're certainly not going to be getting the equivalent of shifted all encounter long unless they've got a lot of shifter feats under their belt) - but if not that, then what?
gelalshawr
05-17-07, 10:04 PM the problem i see with all this is the idea of shifters who's traits are not necessarily going to be used in combat or even in a specific encounter (traps and suchlike), such as cliffwalk or wildhunt, abilities that are readily useful for travel, like longstride or truedive, so what's the criteria there? can I start scaling a cliff, and after my round or two of shifting is over, just shift again as if it's a new encounter, or do i not get to shift at all because i'm not doing anything other than travelling from point a to point b?
Angerland
05-20-07, 11:25 PM Since you are taking some inspiration from theToB you might have some kind of a "recharge". 1 round per encounter , per feat would not move me to playing a shifter anymore than the current set up.

something like the current pre day set up per encounter with a mandatory rest time or some kind of recharge wouldn't be bad.
Maybe something like shift for 1/2 character level +con modifier+1 per 2 shifter feats per encounter(or use of shifting inthe case of non-combat oriented triats). With a mandatory recharge time of x rounds regardless of whether the shifting ended voluntarily or because your time alottment ran out.

I just came up with this stuff off the cuff so I did no number crunching at all, please be gentle.
I DO agree that the current system seems a bit bland as far as shifters go.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-21-07, 07:31 AM Con Modifier + # of feats (or even 1/2 number of feats) rounds per shifting sounds like it could work, although someone with a good Con would then pretty much be able to stay shifted throughout every combat encounter (since they generally only last a few rounds)... but then I'm not so sure that's a bad thing, since I agree with you that the current "uses/day" approach leaves it feeling less like an innate ability and more like a spell.

ToB uses a one minute refresh out of combat, and that seems appropriate for shifters. Though in this case, it might require a minute not in any stressful situation (combat or otherwise) in order to refresh.

So, say, the average 1st level shifter with one feat and a Con of 14 would be able to shift for three rounds at a time, with a one minute refresh in between. I think that's a bit shorter than the system currently allows for (I don't have my ECS handy), but in return he can use it repeatedly throughout the day.
Angerland
05-21-07, 11:54 AM current system is 3 + con mod +1/feat in rounds per day, +1 use/day every 2nd feat.
Subtle Knife
05-21-07, 12:33 PM In our campaigns, we have simply broadened the definition of which feats qualify as shifter feats for the purposes of determining how often/how long they can shift; on top of that, each different trait has several related feats that can also be considered as shifter feats for this purpose.

SK

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neutronium_Dragon 05-16-07, 07:42 PM	3E seems to be heading in the direction of per-encounter abilities rather than per-day abilities. The Tome of Battle is an excellent example of this, but other recent additions such as skill tricks are also pointing in that direction. (Star Wars seems to be undergoing the same transition.) This got me thinking: Could shifting be altered to work this way too? Currently you get X uses/day with each change lasting Y rounds, but what if it was simply X rounds/encounter and you can do it as many times as you have encounters? It seems like swapping the current uses per day into place of the rounds per encounter would work: They start out able to shift for one round per encounter and gain one more round worth for every two shifter feats they add. This could also be done with barbarian rage, in fact - the uses/day becomes rounds/encounter there too.
Melvin the Mediocre 05-17-07, 10:04 AM	I have to say I'm not to wild about the idea. In case of shifters it is not that big of a deal, but it takes the thinking and planning out of the race. You no longer have to decide it you should shift or not as there is really no down side. Barbarians on the other hand would be royally screwed by this rule. You can rage for 1 round per encounter and then you are exausted? BOO!
Angerland 05-17-07, 12:21 PM	I am playing a shifter and I agree that making it per encounter might be a bit much. You might as well be shifted all day then it seems, especially for the more combat oriented traits (razorclaw, longtooth, gorebrute). I could see the number of times per day maybe going up every few levels (maybe 1/day per 3-4 levels) instead of for every two feats. Shifters now have to decide if they are going to concentrate on shifting or what their class would normally use feats for. Not a big deal for low melee type classes ( I mean the ones that don't sit on the fron tlines per se) So far I like things the way they are though.
Arcane Guyver 05-17-07, 01:16 PM	They start out able to shift for one round per encounter and gain one more round worth for every two shifter feats they add. This could also be done with barbarian rage, in fact - the uses/day becomes rounds/encounter there too. That kinda sucks. I dunno about you, but I'd rather rage once per day for a bunch of rounds than rage for exactly 1 round, and then be fatigued for the rest of the encounter. As far as the shifters going per round rather than per day...I dunno. I'd rather see the number of times they can shift increase by HD, rather than by feat count.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-17-07, 09:44 PM	In the case of the barbarian rage, the fatigue bit could probably be dropped. As far as taking the planning out - that's something I view as a good change rather than a bad one, and is part of the reason behind the changeover within the system as a whole with things like the ToB and skill tricks. Right now, the system assumes four encounters per day - which rarely turns out to be the case. But the per-day abilities are metered on that frequently-false assumption. The end result is that per-day abilities usually end up being much more potent (because there are fewer encounters so they have a bigger impact) or ineffective (because there are more encounters so the impact is weaker). Plus you have the whole guessing game, which isn't much fun from the player's standpoint when they guess wrong about whether or not this is the "correct" encounter to use the ability in, or the fact that a character in this model is stuck with a gimmick of, "I'm underpowered in all of these encounters so that I can be appropriately powered in one other one." In any case, if someone is going to implement a change of this sort (let's leave aside the "do I like this paradigm" debate and assume that the person does), what makes for a balanced per-encounter approach rather than per-day approach? I've already suggested changing the number of uses per day over to the number of rounds per encounter, so that a shifter starts off being able to shift for one round per encounter and gains an additional round for every two shifter feats (they're certainly not going to be getting the equivalent of shifted all encounter long unless they've got a lot of shifter feats under their belt) - but if not that, then what?
gelalshawr 05-17-07, 10:04 PM	the problem i see with all this is the idea of shifters who's traits are not necessarily going to be used in combat or even in a specific encounter (traps and suchlike), such as cliffwalk or wildhunt, abilities that are readily useful for travel, like longstride or truedive, so what's the criteria there? can I start scaling a cliff, and after my round or two of shifting is over, just shift again as if it's a new encounter, or do i not get to shift at all because i'm not doing anything other than travelling from point a to point b?
Angerland 05-20-07, 11:25 PM	Since you are taking some inspiration from theToB you might have some kind of a "recharge". 1 round per encounter , per feat would not move me to playing a shifter anymore than the current set up. something like the current pre day set up per encounter with a mandatory rest time or some kind of recharge wouldn't be bad. Maybe something like shift for 1/2 character level +con modifier+1 per 2 shifter feats per encounter(or use of shifting inthe case of non-combat oriented triats). With a mandatory recharge time of x rounds regardless of whether the shifting ended voluntarily or because your time alottment ran out. I just came up with this stuff off the cuff so I did no number crunching at all, please be gentle. I DO agree that the current system seems a bit bland as far as shifters go.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-21-07, 07:31 AM	Con Modifier + # of feats (or even 1/2 number of feats) rounds per shifting sounds like it could work, although someone with a good Con would then pretty much be able to stay shifted throughout every combat encounter (since they generally only last a few rounds)... but then I'm not so sure that's a bad thing, since I agree with you that the current "uses/day" approach leaves it feeling less like an innate ability and more like a spell. ToB uses a one minute refresh out of combat, and that seems appropriate for shifters. Though in this case, it might require a minute not in any stressful situation (combat or otherwise) in order to refresh. So, say, the average 1st level shifter with one feat and a Con of 14 would be able to shift for three rounds at a time, with a one minute refresh in between. I think that's a bit shorter than the system currently allows for (I don't have my ECS handy), but in return he can use it repeatedly throughout the day.
Angerland 05-21-07, 11:54 AM	current system is 3 + con mod +1/feat in rounds per day, +1 use/day every 2nd feat.
Subtle Knife 05-21-07, 12:33 PM	In our campaigns, we have simply broadened the definition of which feats qualify as shifter feats for the purposes of determining how often/how long they can shift; on top of that, each different trait has several related feats that can also be considered as shifter feats for this purpose. SK