Spellthief vs Warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spellthief vs Warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Terry Hawkins
05-11-07, 10:39 PM Had a situation in my last game session where my players came accross a hostile Warlock (Complete Arcana). He was in the air with Fell Flight using eldriche spear. However the Spellthief in the party used his sling to get a sneak attack (he got within 30 feet). He "stole" the warlocks Eldrich Blast spell-like ability. This pretty much shut the Warlock down.

I was a little shocked at how potent the Steal Spell-Like Ability of the Spellthief was against a warlock. Did I miss something or is a warlock really that vulnerable to a spellthief? :p:
UnderworldLord
05-12-07, 12:20 AM Warlocks are batteries for spellthieves. Especially friendly ones, since you can voluntarily give the guy your spells. Heck, I can't see a reason why a good spellthief with leadership wouldn't go for a warlock cohort.
Forged_Fury
05-12-07, 08:49 AM Was this in an Eberron game? Because you would probably get more responses to such a general question over on the main D&D boards.

-FF
Pinky's brain
05-12-07, 10:21 AM Actually a warlock isn't that vulnerable. It's not like he is all that good a damage dealer in the first place, between his invocations and his UMD he should have had plenty of fallback options.
UnderworldLord
05-12-07, 01:32 PM Thing is, the warlock has an infinite use of its eldritch blast. No vulnerability really, but excellent as teammates.
Tevin Kevlak
05-12-07, 04:06 PM I believe that when the Spellthief steals a spell-like ability that said spell-like ability is surpressed for quite some time. If he stole the Eldritch Blast SLA then the Warlock become a UMD monkey for dealing damage really.
UnderworldLord
05-12-07, 05:57 PM Its one minute or until used, to be exact.
Ardent
05-12-07, 05:59 PM Actually a warlock isn't that vulnerable. It's not like he is all that good a damage dealer in the first place, between his invocations and his UMD he should have had plenty of fallback options.
Warlocks who take the right enhancements to Eldritch Blast can routinely out-damage any other member of a party. Blast won't outdamage, say, a maximized fireball. But over the course of a combat encounter he'll deal more damage.

A spellthief stealing a Warlock's Blast isn't going to take away the Warlock's nuke, per se, but it will affect his ability to deal steady damage, which is the key to winning a fight.
Tevin Kevlak
05-12-07, 06:57 PM Warlocks who take the right enhancements to Eldritch Blast can routinely out-damage any other member of a party. Blast won't outdamage, say, a maximized fireball. But over the course of a combat encounter he'll deal more damage.

A spellthief stealing a Warlock's Blast isn't going to take away the Warlock's nuke, per se, but it will affect his ability to deal steady damage, which is the key to winning a fight.

But if he steals the Eldritch Blast and chooses not to use it he can surpress his "nuke" for 10 rounds of combat and thus the Warlock is no longer dealing out consistant damage. Also, if you're going to compare the Warlock to the Wizard or Sorcerer for damage out put they do excel per day if you're going past the traditional 4 encounters per day but per combat any wizard or sorcerer can easily out damage a Warlock every time if they desire.
Ardent
05-13-07, 01:01 AM But if he steals the Eldritch Blast and chooses not to use it he can surpress his "nuke" for 10 rounds of combat and thus the Warlock is no longer dealing out consistant damage. Also, if you're going to compare the Warlock to the Wizard or Sorcerer for damage out put they do excel per day if you're going past the traditional 4 encounters per day but per combat any wizard or sorcerer can easily out damage a Warlock every time if they desire.
If you think Eldritch Blast is the Warlock's nuke...your Warlocks are severely gimped. ;)

Sorcerers can beat Warlocks if their entire repertoire is combat-focused. Which means they aren't the group's primary arcane caster normally. Which means you probably won't also have a Warlock. Just a matter of circumstance.

Round-for-round it has been my experience that Warlocks are fairly "average" in damage potential. However, if you average out the damage a Wizard or Sorcerer does over the course of one combat encounter, it's equal to or less than what the Warlock typically does. There are several reasons this occurs (in my experience): Eldritch Blast isn't subject to flubs, and thus there's no chance that you may botch your Conc roll and fizzle your Fireball, for instance. Say what you will, but (particularly in Eberron) higher-level encounters will include enemies that can deal damage significant enough to force Conc failures up to 40% of the time...plus also possibly kill the caster.

Additionally, a caster is not normally going to find themselves in a position to cast a spell every round, even if by some miracle they never have to move. Moreover, rarely can the Sorceror or Wizard use their most powerful spells once the battle is actually joined, since they tend to be nukes.

But if you want to discuss the raw potential of the Warlock, you should probably head over to the Character Optimization boards.
Tevin Kevlak
05-14-07, 12:02 AM What exactly would be the Warlocks nuke then? Eldritch Blast modified by shape? That still caps out at 9d6 damage even if it's spread amongst multiple opponents. Also, innvocations are susceptible to interruption and they require a concentration check, just like a spell would, if the Warlock is hit while casting or he's casting while in a threatened square.

And Eldritch Blasts aren't as reliable as you seem to be making them out to be. For one, the Eldritch Blast has a range of 60 feet unless you modifiy it with a shape innvocation, they also require a ranged touch attack. The Warlock could simply be out of range, or fail to hit his target and his consistant damage goes out the window. Compare this with the Long Range of Wiz/Sorc spells. The Wiz/Sorc with use of divination spells and their ungodly range could nuke an enemy before they even know there's a caster about, the Warlock, simply, can't do this. With a max range of 250 feet on an Eldritch Spear compared to 400 feet + 40 feet per level it's not even close.

Now, lets compare an Utterdark Blast (a max level Warlock ability) to Maximized Disintegrate, a 9th level wiz/sorc spell with both casters at level 20. The Warlock, if he hits each turn with his blast, will do 9d6 + 2 negative levels (about 10 more HP plus side affects) of damage per turn. In one round the Sorcerer can deal 40d6 damage with a maximized disintegrate so that equals out to 240 damage. Lets say that the Warlock gets really lucky and rolls maximum damage for his blast, each round he uses it... he'll do about 64 damage which equals out to about 3.75 rounds of hitting and rolling maximum damage with his eldritch blast just to meet the damage the sorcerer did in one round which, lets the Sorcerer cast all those other spells that make him the "main arcane caster" in the party.

Now, you could say that the Sorcerer will eventually run out of spell slots to use this neat trick, and he will, but he can use this neat trick at least 6 times every day. That's 1440 damage just from 9th level spell slots, every day. Let's say the Sorcerer casts this spell 6 times in a row during combat over the course of 6 rounds. The Warlock now has to hit, and deal maximum damage with his blast for roughly 22.5 rounds to catch up with all the damage the sorcerer just did in 6. Oh, and the kicker is that once the Sorcerer runs out of 9th level maximized disintegrates he still has 6th level disintegrates which are still 40d6 compared to 9d6 plus 2 negative levels.

I'm interested to see what this nuke is that the Warlock gets that apparently puts them over the damage of what a Wizard or Sorcerer can do.
Just another user
05-14-07, 03:55 AM IMHO comparisons between warlocks and other casters are not really useful.. The standard casters are designed to be balanced "by day", the warlock is designed to be balanced "by encounter" if you follow the 4 encounters for day guideline they are -more or less- on the same level, if you do more the warlock have the advantage, if you do less are advantaged the other base classes.
Beside that I think tha while the warlock is only average as damage dealer, his true advantage of the warlock are his other special abilities, infinite dimension door, infinite invisibilty, infinite flying, etc if you pick the right invications you can have a really fun character to play.
RogueElement
05-14-07, 06:05 PM It's surprising to me that the Warlock in the OP example even let the Spellthief to within 30'. It seems like the smart villain would have flown up out of the 30' range and peppered the party with Eldritch Spears until they all ran for cover.
UnderworldLord
05-14-07, 08:17 PM See, you are assuming this Warlock was smart. While casters are often smart, there are always exceptions to the stereotype. And then there is just plain accident.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Terry Hawkins 05-11-07, 10:39 PM	Had a situation in my last game session where my players came accross a hostile Warlock (Complete Arcana). He was in the air with Fell Flight using eldriche spear. However the Spellthief in the party used his sling to get a sneak attack (he got within 30 feet). He "stole" the warlocks Eldrich Blast spell-like ability. This pretty much shut the Warlock down. I was a little shocked at how potent the Steal Spell-Like Ability of the Spellthief was against a warlock. Did I miss something or is a warlock really that vulnerable to a spellthief? :p:
UnderworldLord 05-12-07, 12:20 AM	Warlocks are batteries for spellthieves. Especially friendly ones, since you can voluntarily give the guy your spells. Heck, I can't see a reason why a good spellthief with leadership wouldn't go for a warlock cohort.
Forged_Fury 05-12-07, 08:49 AM	Was this in an Eberron game? Because you would probably get more responses to such a general question over on the main D&D boards. -FF
Pinky's brain 05-12-07, 10:21 AM	Actually a warlock isn't that vulnerable. It's not like he is all that good a damage dealer in the first place, between his invocations and his UMD he should have had plenty of fallback options.
UnderworldLord 05-12-07, 01:32 PM	Thing is, the warlock has an infinite use of its eldritch blast. No vulnerability really, but excellent as teammates.
Tevin Kevlak 05-12-07, 04:06 PM	I believe that when the Spellthief steals a spell-like ability that said spell-like ability is surpressed for quite some time. If he stole the Eldritch Blast SLA then the Warlock become a UMD monkey for dealing damage really.
UnderworldLord 05-12-07, 05:57 PM	Its one minute or until used, to be exact.
Ardent 05-12-07, 05:59 PM	Actually a warlock isn't that vulnerable. It's not like he is all that good a damage dealer in the first place, between his invocations and his UMD he should have had plenty of fallback options. Warlocks who take the right enhancements to Eldritch Blast can routinely out-damage any other member of a party. Blast won't outdamage, say, a maximized fireball. But over the course of a combat encounter he'll deal more damage. A spellthief stealing a Warlock's Blast isn't going to take away the Warlock's nuke, per se, but it will affect his ability to deal steady damage, which is the key to winning a fight.
Tevin Kevlak 05-12-07, 06:57 PM	Warlocks who take the right enhancements to Eldritch Blast can routinely out-damage any other member of a party. Blast won't outdamage, say, a maximized fireball. But over the course of a combat encounter he'll deal more damage. A spellthief stealing a Warlock's Blast isn't going to take away the Warlock's nuke, per se, but it will affect his ability to deal steady damage, which is the key to winning a fight. But if he steals the Eldritch Blast and chooses not to use it he can surpress his "nuke" for 10 rounds of combat and thus the Warlock is no longer dealing out consistant damage. Also, if you're going to compare the Warlock to the Wizard or Sorcerer for damage out put they do excel per day if you're going past the traditional 4 encounters per day but per combat any wizard or sorcerer can easily out damage a Warlock every time if they desire.
Ardent 05-13-07, 01:01 AM	But if he steals the Eldritch Blast and chooses not to use it he can surpress his "nuke" for 10 rounds of combat and thus the Warlock is no longer dealing out consistant damage. Also, if you're going to compare the Warlock to the Wizard or Sorcerer for damage out put they do excel per day if you're going past the traditional 4 encounters per day but per combat any wizard or sorcerer can easily out damage a Warlock every time if they desire. If you think Eldritch Blast is the Warlock's nuke...your Warlocks are severely gimped. ;) Sorcerers can beat Warlocks if their entire repertoire is combat-focused. Which means they aren't the group's primary arcane caster normally. Which means you probably won't also have a Warlock. Just a matter of circumstance. Round-for-round it has been my experience that Warlocks are fairly "average" in damage potential. However, if you average out the damage a Wizard or Sorcerer does over the course of one combat encounter, it's equal to or less than what the Warlock typically does. There are several reasons this occurs (in my experience): Eldritch Blast isn't subject to flubs, and thus there's no chance that you may botch your Conc roll and fizzle your Fireball, for instance. Say what you will, but (particularly in Eberron) higher-level encounters will include enemies that can deal damage significant enough to force Conc failures up to 40% of the time...plus also possibly kill the caster. Additionally, a caster is not normally going to find themselves in a position to cast a spell every round, even if by some miracle they never have to move. Moreover, rarely can the Sorceror or Wizard use their most powerful spells once the battle is actually joined, since they tend to be nukes. But if you want to discuss the raw potential of the Warlock, you should probably head over to the Character Optimization boards.
Tevin Kevlak 05-14-07, 12:02 AM	What exactly would be the Warlocks nuke then? Eldritch Blast modified by shape? That still caps out at 9d6 damage even if it's spread amongst multiple opponents. Also, innvocations are susceptible to interruption and they require a concentration check, just like a spell would, if the Warlock is hit while casting or he's casting while in a threatened square. And Eldritch Blasts aren't as reliable as you seem to be making them out to be. For one, the Eldritch Blast has a range of 60 feet unless you modifiy it with a shape innvocation, they also require a ranged touch attack. The Warlock could simply be out of range, or fail to hit his target and his consistant damage goes out the window. Compare this with the Long Range of Wiz/Sorc spells. The Wiz/Sorc with use of divination spells and their ungodly range could nuke an enemy before they even know there's a caster about, the Warlock, simply, can't do this. With a max range of 250 feet on an Eldritch Spear compared to 400 feet + 40 feet per level it's not even close. Now, lets compare an Utterdark Blast (a max level Warlock ability) to Maximized Disintegrate, a 9th level wiz/sorc spell with both casters at level 20. The Warlock, if he hits each turn with his blast, will do 9d6 + 2 negative levels (about 10 more HP plus side affects) of damage per turn. In one round the Sorcerer can deal 40d6 damage with a maximized disintegrate so that equals out to 240 damage. Lets say that the Warlock gets really lucky and rolls maximum damage for his blast, each round he uses it... he'll do about 64 damage which equals out to about 3.75 rounds of hitting and rolling maximum damage with his eldritch blast just to meet the damage the sorcerer did in one round which, lets the Sorcerer cast all those other spells that make him the "main arcane caster" in the party. Now, you could say that the Sorcerer will eventually run out of spell slots to use this neat trick, and he will, but he can use this neat trick at least 6 times every day. That's 1440 damage just from 9th level spell slots, every day. Let's say the Sorcerer casts this spell 6 times in a row during combat over the course of 6 rounds. The Warlock now has to hit, and deal maximum damage with his blast for roughly 22.5 rounds to catch up with all the damage the sorcerer just did in 6. Oh, and the kicker is that once the Sorcerer runs out of 9th level maximized disintegrates he still has 6th level disintegrates which are still 40d6 compared to 9d6 plus 2 negative levels. I'm interested to see what this nuke is that the Warlock gets that apparently puts them over the damage of what a Wizard or Sorcerer can do.
Just another user 05-14-07, 03:55 AM	IMHO comparisons between warlocks and other casters are not really useful.. The standard casters are designed to be balanced "by day", the warlock is designed to be balanced "by encounter" if you follow the 4 encounters for day guideline they are -more or less- on the same level, if you do more the warlock have the advantage, if you do less are advantaged the other base classes. Beside that I think tha while the warlock is only average as damage dealer, his true advantage of the warlock are his other special abilities, infinite dimension door, infinite invisibilty, infinite flying, etc if you pick the right invications you can have a really fun character to play.
RogueElement 05-14-07, 06:05 PM	It's surprising to me that the Warlock in the OP example even let the Spellthief to within 30'. It seems like the smart villain would have flown up out of the 30' range and peppered the party with Eldritch Spears until they all ran for cover.
UnderworldLord 05-14-07, 08:17 PM	See, you are assuming this Warlock was smart. While casters are often smart, there are always exceptions to the stereotype. And then there is just plain accident.