Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Zzyzx 06-19-07, 09:41 PM	My DM has tentatively agreed to allow me to increase my warforged fighter from medium to large. However, I need to supply him with sample stats of a 10' warforged. Have any of you dealt with the stats of a large warforged? Especially the following: AC (I imagine there would be a penalty for against medium and smaller creatures) Strength (I would hope for some bonus here) Reach (extends to 10') DR from Adamantine Body (I noticed the warforged titan has a much higher DR than its medium counter part) Number of Flanking Opponents (I would presume an increase here) Also, is there anything from the "history of the race" perspective that would preclude a large warforged?
keropie 06-19-07, 10:08 PM	Roughly speaking, I'd go with 10' reach, +2 str, -2 dex (minimum of 1), -1 to hit and AC (normal for a large creature). The end. This is shockingly similar to what one might get by taking a warforged and casting 'enlarge person.' Also, if there is no money changing hands here (i.e., this isn't some sort of permanent magic item or something), the DM should probably impose an LA of +1 or so. Oh, and I didn't forget DR. It should stay the same.
Symar 06-19-07, 10:28 PM	I'd like a large order of warforged, to go, please. "Would you like Dragonmarks with that?" No thanks, I'm on a diet. :rimshot: I believe there are rules in the front of the Monster Manual for changing the size of a creature. Been a while since I've looked though. Take a look at those. It'd be very similar to what keropie said, anyway.
Revvecor 06-19-07, 10:29 PM	according to www.d20srd.org Large creatures get -1 penalty to Armor Class -1 penalty on attack rolls -4 penalty on Hide checks +4 bonus on grapple checks lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Lord_Zzyzx 06-19-07, 10:36 PM	LA? Forgive my naivette but I am not familar.
Revvecor 06-19-07, 10:37 PM	LA? Forgive my naivette but I am not familar. level adjustment
keropie 06-19-07, 10:53 PM	Check out any of the SRD sites for more information about LA, but essentially it means that a large Warforged fighter with 8 levels of fighter counts as a level 9 character (ftr8 + 1 LA). This means that he gains xp as a level 9 character, and essentially that if I were your DM and you were in a party of level 8 characters, I would make you wait until you had sufficient xp to reach level 9 and then you could gain your large size. With no hp, BAB, saves, whatnot. But I don't really like large characters, so I probably wouldn't let it fly anyhow ;)
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 02:22 AM	Making him LARGE shouldn't really change a whole lot I'd think. Maybe you could just make it like a permanent Englarge spell with all the advantages and disadvantages? He'd be able to use larger weapons but be easier to hit and I don't even know if he's going to be able to get into most places. Truthfully, I'd rather just go with a enlarge spell everynow and then or a item that allows me to enlarge myself every so often.
ArcTan 06-20-07, 02:52 AM	You might consider using a Warforged Charger from MM3, though the penalties to mental stats might make him unplayable. (Though who knows? Some people have a lot of fun with stupid-tank builds.)
ArcTan 06-20-07, 02:54 AM	according to www.d20srd.org Large creatures get -1 penalty to Armor Class -1 penalty on attack rolls -4 penalty on Hide checks +4 bonus on grapple checks lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. That's the rules for what Large size itself *means*, not what happens when something grows Large. (I.e. no matter what else happened to the Warforged, the *fact* that it was Large would mean it would get these size modifiers to AC, attack, Hide, etc.) The actual rules you want are here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases Basically, *if* Warforged advanced by HD and could increase size category this way (which they don't), then if you advanced enough HD to go up a size category, you'd get +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 natural armor. Note that since Warforged do *not* normally transition to a higher size category this way, you have no guidance for how to balance this. Normally a monster would have to be advanced quite a bit (10 or so monster HD) to achieve this -- without having to take any monster HD, I'd say these adjustments by themselves constitute a +2 or +3 LA, easily.
ArcTan 06-20-07, 02:58 AM	Making him LARGE shouldn't really change a whole lot I'd think. Maybe you could just make it like a permanent Englarge spell with all the advantages and disadvantages? He'd be able to use larger weapons but be easier to hit and I don't even know if he's going to be able to get into most places. Truthfully, I'd rather just go with a enlarge spell everynow and then or a item that allows me to enlarge myself every so often. There are no spells that straightforwardly enlarge a Warforged. Enlarge person doesn't work on the Warforged because Warforged aren't "persons" (i.e. Humanoids) for the purpose of that spell. You can do it if your DM allows alter self by altering into a Warforged Charger -- indeed, providing Warforged a way to become Large or Small through alter self is what I halfway suspect the Warforged Charger and Scout were invented for. There's also the psionic power expansion. A Warforged that was just naturally under the effects of enlarge person -- Large size, +2 Str, -2 Dex -- I would peg as being LA +1. Largeness is all-in-all a huge bonus for ordinary combat situations, mainly because of Reach (getting AoOs on Medium opponents before they can even hit you). The mobility issues aren't really that big a deal unless you arbitrarily make the whole campaign take place in a dungeon with narrow crawlspaces between every room, which will tick off everyone, not just the Warforged.
Lord_Zzyzx 06-20-07, 01:55 PM	Truth be told the impetus behind my original character was to build a sick tank that could wield a huge, mercurial, greatsword in the two-handed style. This would be a 15' reach weapon with insane damage before adding in magic properties. I got the idea from someone's signature on this board. My complements to the originator (whose name I can't find at the moment.) As a large creature I would be, in theory, able to wield this initially with just an exotic weapon feat. Later I would be able to reduce that to one hand to pick up a shield. Anyway the DM, is liberal about characters becuase he is crafty and will field anything we create against us. He also made point of the fact that the increase size will make it difficult for him in certain social settings. How do you accomodate a large construct at your fancy dinner? None the less, I thought the increase size would add to the brutish ackward persona of a warforged that is embracing his construct nature.
DarkWarriorKarg 06-20-07, 02:29 PM	You'll also need to eventually collect all the other necessary gimmicks for such a character: Battle fist with the Dancing enhancement (Rocket Punch!) A chest-mounted Rod of Disintegration (3/day). A magic mouth which yells out everything you do in combat...
Belkar 06-20-07, 05:26 PM	Enlarge person doesn't work on the Warforged because Warforged aren't "persons" (i.e. Humanoids) for the purpose of that spell.... Are you sure of that? Isn't the Living Construct sub-type included in these spells?
yrogerg 06-20-07, 09:15 PM	Are you sure of that? Isn't the Living Construct sub-type included in these spells? No. The X Person spells tend to explicitly only target creatures with the Humanoid type. This means means Aasimar, Doppelgangers, Elans, Half-Dragons, and 20th level Monks ale also excluded. Enlarge Person Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 1, Strength 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid creature Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size. A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target’s speed. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size. All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,. Enlarge person counters and dispels reduce person. Enlarge person can be made permanent with a permanency spell. Material Component A pinch of powdered iron. (emphasis added)
yrogerg 06-20-07, 09:17 PM	You'll also need to eventually collect all the other necessary gimmicks for such a character: Battle fist with the Dancing enhancement (Rocket Punch!) A chest-mounted Rod of Disintegration (3/day). A magic mouth which yells out everything you do in combat... Don't forget a Tauric belt! The magic mouth could shout "Maximize!" as it's activated!
ArcTan 06-21-07, 02:22 AM	Truth be told the impetus behind my original character was to build a sick tank that could wield a huge, mercurial, greatsword in the two-handed style. This would be a 15' reach weapon with insane damage before adding in magic properties. I got the idea from someone's signature on this board. My complements to the originator (whose name I can't find at the moment.) As a large creature I would be, in theory, able to wield this initially with just an exotic weapon feat. Later I would be able to reduce that to one hand to pick up a shield. Anyway the DM, is liberal about characters becuase he is crafty and will field anything we create against us. He also made point of the fact that the increase size will make it difficult for him in certain social settings. How do you accomodate a large construct at your fancy dinner? None the less, I thought the increase size would add to the brutish ackward persona of a warforged that is embracing his construct nature. Really, the honest, non-min-maxing thing to do here would be to play a Warforged Charger, absorbing the Charger's penalties to mental attribute scores and its level adjustment. It'd make sense, since being such a creature would mean you were probably never taught and trained the way "normal" Warforged are -- why bother, if you're not going to be able to use human weapons or human tactics or interact with humans -- and it'll be much more difficult for you to learn things and gain experience than a warforged who was designed to be "modular" with human society (which is why most warforged were designed that way).
Lord_Zzyzx 06-21-07, 12:27 PM	Really, the honest, non-min-maxing thing to do here would be to play a Warforged Charger, absorbing the Charger's penalties to mental attribute scores and its level adjustment. It'd make sense, since being such a creature would mean you were probably never taught and trained the way "normal" Warforged are -- why bother, if you're not going to be able to use human weapons or human tactics or interact with humans -- and it'll be much more difficult for you to learn things and gain experience than a warforged who was designed to be "modular" with human society (which is why most warforged were designed that way). Min-maxing aside, which is what I am shamelessly trying to do, this is a roleplaying game. You raise a good point about the training the Large warforged would receive. I have a back story intertwined with another player that wouldn't work if the "humanity" is stripped from my character. I think this will ultimately be a DM call. He is pretty liberal, as I mentioned above. However, he probably has a story arch in which such a character could not reasonably exist.
Moosh Nailo 06-24-07, 05:32 PM	Don't forget the psionic power Expansion. Basically enlarge person, but without limiting it to humanoids (though it is personal range). In savage species there is an item, Ring of Growth, which increases your size category by one for up to 9 minutes/day. Maybe you should just go for powerful build?
Epsilon 06-30-07, 01:03 PM	You'll also need to eventually collect all the other necessary gimmicks for such a character: Battle fist with the Dancing enhancement (Rocket Punch!) A chest-mounted Rod of Disintegration (3/day). A magic mouth which yells out everything you do in combat... im almost afraid to ask but what would those 3 things be copied from, my guess is gutsman, and the guyver but i dont know the 3rd one
yrogerg 06-30-07, 03:53 PM	Don't forget the psionic power Expansion. Basically enlarge person, but without limiting it to humanoids (though it is personal range). In savage species there is an item, Ring of Growth, which increases your size category by one for up to 9 minutes/day. Maybe you should just go for powerful build? Note that an Augmented Expansion allows you to turn Huge. Which is great fun, for things like going toe-to-toe with a Warforged Titan.
LoneStranger 06-30-07, 08:57 PM	I was thinking that you could find a way to put your mind into a Warforged Titan. No I don't know how you could do that but there should be the ability to find some way to do it.
Romulus LoneWolf 06-30-07, 09:09 PM	im almost afraid to ask but what would those 3 things be copied from, my guess is gutsman, and the guyver but i dont know the 3rd one Actually, they're all "Mazinger Z/Grandizer" anime references... Personally, I like the concept of Large "Brute" Warforged, perhaps getting fielded in response to Droaam Ogre Mercernaries at the tail end of the Last War...
Epsilon 06-30-07, 11:42 PM	Actually, they're all "Mazinger Z/Grandizer" anime references... Personally, I like the concept of Large "Brute" Warforged, perhaps getting fielded in response to Droaam Ogre Mercernaries at the tail end of the Last War... i should have realized it was Mazinger Z i had just watched that the other day its a good idea now that i know what your ideas are based on i am workin on a set of feats and warforged components that will make the warforged more styled toward guyver and megaman
ChristopherGroves 06-30-07, 11:47 PM	Going Psionic is really the right path. Consider. Fighter 4 Psychic Warrior 2 Juggernaught 5 Warmind 9 Big and tough. Expansion (for getting bigger), self healing, all sorts of psionic goodness and juggernaught immunities.
yrogerg 07-01-07, 11:11 AM	Going Psionic is really the right path. Consider. Fighter 4 Psychic Warrior 2 Juggernaught 5 Warmind 9 Big and tough. Expansion (for getting bigger), self healing, all sorts of psionic goodness and juggernaught immunities. Personally, I'd forgo the Fighter levels and go pure PW, for access to 3rd-level powers.
Warforged Goblin 07-03-07, 12:18 PM	Ah yes, the Oversized Heavy Mercurial Fullblade. Sure, you'd need four feats just to wield it, but you'd be attacking with a sharpened pool table... My god, I can't tell you how happy it makes me when I see people using my quote :D
Lord_Zzyzx 07-03-07, 02:31 PM	Yes. Thank you for the idea that inspired all this discussion. Unfortunately, the large-size warforged isn't going to work out for many of the reasons listed above. However, the weapon still might. Anyway, thanks again.
GrimAlchemist 07-03-07, 06:41 PM	Well, don't give up just yet. If you wanted a larger than normal waforged, I could see a +1 LA warforged that has Powerful Build (from half-giants or goliaths: basically all the bonuses of being large sized, none of the penalties), and throw a +2 Str in as well. He could average about 8 feet tall and be just a little broader than the average warforged. He wouldn't have too much difficulty fitting in most places (just a little more than your average 'forged). Developed later in the war by those Cannith heirs trying to perfect one of their greatest accomplishments, but only produced in limited supply due to the experimental nature of their creation.
kentonblack 07-03-07, 08:12 PM	damnit, i ahet to admit it but your idea does not sound half baked. crap, im becoming a better gamer...
Edymnion 07-03-07, 09:48 PM	Has no one mentioned the Jotenbrud feat yet?
DarkWarriorKarg 07-04-07, 03:06 PM	Has no one mentioned the Jotenbrud feat yet? Where's that from?
Edymnion 07-04-07, 07:05 PM	Where's that from?Races of Faerun, I believe. Its a human regional lvl 1 feat (but screw that, we're not in Faerun), and its most of the Powerful Build racial ability. Basically, any time you make an opposed roll (like for grapples, resisting bullrushes, something trying to Swallow Whole on you, etc), you count as being Large if it is beneficial to you. Same as Powerful Build, it just doesn't let you weild Large weapons. One of my WF has it.
GrimAlchemist 07-05-07, 05:58 PM	Ah right, I thought I remembered Jotenbrud. That could be a good start, and then create a second feat that requires Jotenbrud, which will apply the Large sized to wielding weapons as well. Rename them along the lines of large build or brutish build or some such. Would you consider Jotenbrud to be a 1st-level only feat? There's some significant issues there with conflicting Body feats, but if it can be taken afterwards, how would the increase in size be explained? Just chalk it up to the "warforged are malleable" idea?
Edymnion 07-05-07, 06:20 PM	Ah right, I thought I remembered Jotenbrud. That could be a good start, and then create a second feat that requires Jotenbrud, which will apply the Large sized to wielding weapons as well. Rename them along the lines of large build or brutish build or some such.You mean like Monkey Grip or Weild Oversized Weapon? Would you consider Jotenbrud to be a 1st-level only feat? There's some significant issues there with conflicting Body feats, but if it can be taken afterwards, how would the increase in size be explained? Just chalk it up to the "warforged are malleable" idea?I keep it as a lvl 1 only feat, but I allow you to use a fighter bonus feat to take it.
GrimAlchemist 07-05-07, 09:08 PM	You mean like Monkey Grip or Weild Oversized Weapon? Not sure about Wield Oversized Weapon, but Monkey Grip takes the -2 penalty for wielding a larger weapon. With my proposed feat, you would take no penalty, at the cost of the prerequisite feat (which itself would likely have a few prerequisites).
Lord_Zzyzx 07-05-07, 10:16 PM	Basically I am compelled to agree with the quote below. You might consider using a Warforged Charger from MM3, though the penalties to mental stats might make him unplayable. (Though who knows? Some people have a lot of fun with stupid-tank builds.) Essentially, the Large-type warforged was tackled in MM3. The mindlessness, so to speak, of this creation makes it un-roll-playable. The charger as was duly noted above would not have been given the socialization for necessary for it to interact will other races, having no need for it. A version of the large non-charger warforged could be explained away as a freakish, one-of-a-kind, creation, but that doesn't fit with his backstory. Moreover, the PHB tells that large sized creatures are more than 8' tall. This, too, makes it difficult to roll-play because it simply won't fit indoors (in most situations.) Logistically, the LA and AC adjustments are considerable negatives, which my DM deemed fit to impose. In short, I am stuck. Although possible in theory, pragmatism says not so much.
Moosh Nailo 07-10-07, 05:40 PM	How about turning powerful build into a body feat for warforged? Keep the usual first level prerequisite, and it shouldn't be too imbalanced. Compare it to adamantine body: doesn't seem as powerful anymore, does it? And because it is a first level body feat, the 'forged can't take any of the armor ones, which helps keep the see-saw even. (IMO) It has been suggested in several different places. Or maybe have the feat be like Jotunbrud, with the limited version of powerful build, along with a +2 to strength. While I think I like this idea better, the +2 strength in a first level feat screams overpowered. Not too sure what to do about this one. Maybe the +2 str kicks in at a later level, or something? Or perhaps just a flat bonus to the abilities affected by Jotunbrud?
Concerto 07-10-07, 06:42 PM	I am not much of a player (yet) but I would suggest a charisma penalty, since most people would be uncomfortable around a large construct, though you could give a bonus to intimidate at the same time since the larger size makes people easier to scare. Personally, I was wondering about making a subrace of small cloth based warforged, so I was sightly surprised when I saw this. Anyways, good luck with this, I am sure you can figure it out.
yrogerg 07-10-07, 07:18 PM	I am not much of a player (yet) but I would suggest a charisma penalty, since most people would be uncomfortable around a large construct, though you could give a bonus to intimidate at the same time since the larger size makes people easier to scare. I would disagree to both, as Charisma is a mental stat that's supposed to represent primarily a character's "sense of self" or "force of personality" far more than it's supposed to represent looks. Most people would be uncomfortable around an Illithid, or a Beholder, as well, yet they have high Charisma. Also, you already get a size bonus to intimidate if you are Large. You don't need an extra bonus for being large.
yrogerg 07-10-07, 07:23 PM	Basically I am compelled to agree with the quote below. Essentially, the Large-type warforged was tackled in MM3. The mindlessness, so to speak, of this creation makes it un-roll-playable. The charger as was duly noted above would not have been given the socialization for necessary for it to interact will other races, having no need for it. A version of the large non-charger warforged could be explained away as a freakish, one-of-a-kind, creation, but that doesn't fit with his backstory. Moreover, the PHB tells that large sized creatures are more than 8' tall. This, too, makes it difficult to roll-play because it simply won't fit indoors (in most situations.) Logistically, the LA and AC adjustments are considerable negatives, which my DM deemed fit to impose. In short, I am stuck. Although possible in theory, pragmatism says not so much. To reiterate other posters, why not play a Psychic Warrior with the Expansion power? It has the benefit of not being "always on" like an actual race or feat tree, but the augment lets you manifest it for longer, manifest it quickly in combat, or simply make your self bigger. And, thier mild MAD doesn't make their mental stats any more unplayable than, say, for Rangers. Or, play an Artificer and then turn into a Charger when the mood strikes you?